Final Smash Meter, will it be tourney legal?

[PsychoIncarnate]

Probably no, but I'll be using it. I've been hoping for something like it

 

[NewGuy79]

not to be a downer I think it may be slightly premature to attempt to discuss this mechanic in terms of game balance.

we simply do not know enough.
There are so many questions that need to be explored about this mechanic before any type of judgement can be made, so much like the hazard toggle debate, we simply do not have enough information.

Spoiler: an example of things we need to examine:

How quickly does the bar grow?
does the bar grow differently for different characters?
How much does a character gain though damage dealt and damage received?
How long can a character hold on to their smash?
Can the smash be knocked out of them?
How much weaker are the final smashes?
is the final smash nerf simply to its damage or will their utility be nerfed as well?
how easily can opponents avoid final smashes?
do they allow opportunities to punish if missed?
How extensive are the customization options for this mechanic?
and the questions go on...

I will note however that I think we ought to have a bit more faith with the Smash teams ability to balance and design this mechanic,
as the more recent direct has shown the team has been practically bending over backwards to supply us with the most options posible.

you also need to consider how similar mechanics are being balanced in Ultimate itself, most notably Cloud's limit break an addition of a timer itself is a good indication for how the Smash team may approach powered up states within the game.

my bet is that once charged the final smash will have a timer for use, so to incentivize players to actually use it instead of camping and potentially wasting it. I also think that with enough damage the holder of the final smash can essentially be "brocken" out of it, similarly to how the final smashes work with the smash ball, the idea of hitting the opponent to deactivate the final smash 'state' seems to be a very deliberate balancing mechanic.

with that in mind, I think the Smash team is very much aware of the potential camping strategies that could arise by giving characters final smashes that could not be negated.

 

[GUIGUI]

How do you avoid Bayo`s time-slow? You can`t,

You are familiar with the concept of combos, right? It's just like little Mac's KO Punch, you can't just land it. To make sure it does, you made it the final part of an inescapable combo.

You always try to avoid Bayonetta's time slow, Final Smash or not. What you are talking about is not a dodgeable FS, you are talking about Time Slow and just like for every time sow ever, you try to avoid it. Simply. You are not making an argument against the FS meter, but aagainst how easy it is for bayo to land a time slow.

Seeing that you retain your current progress to a new FS on death

Source on that, please?

 

[MalcolmBelmont]

I have a feeling it won't be but i think it would be a cool way to shake up competitive Smash

 

[Admiral Pit]

I don't see it happens, let alone Marth's being super powerful even when weakened (and and a reminder Lucina and Roy have something similar). And then there's Bayo's, which will be an instant kill if the target is at a high enough %, which she can already do with her playstyle.... in theory.

This mode is better off just being for casual fun if anything. Even then, we don't have enough info as someone said before, and there's tons of final smashes we don't know about yet. But again, I prefer if it wasn't tourney legal just because. Also to note that some characters have important moves as neutral B, so if they suddenly get the Final Smash, how will they use their neutral B without using up said FS? So again, my preference in short is no.

 

[GUIGUI]

so if they suddenly get the Final Smash, how will they use their neutral B without using up said FS? So again, my preference in short is no.

Like said before, the inability to use b while having the FS on can be part of the balancing. Little Mac is also stuck being unable to us neutral B when his KO punch is online. It's part of his gameplay.

 

[Vulgun]

I'm still of the part of the community that is for the Final Smash meter.

I think that they'll make matches much faster because each opponent has to worry about the other getting their Final Smashes, thus making them want to finish the match early so that they can avoid being struck by one. And even then, if Final Smashes are still powerful enough to end stocks early, which to be fair, probably isn't the case already, we can simply increase the amount of stocks from 3 to around 4 or 5.

I just see the mechanic as a way to make the game much faster-paced and more enjoyable between audiences and players alike.

If worst comes to worst, let's just make it its own metagame and put it as a third main event alongside Singles (Meter OFF) and Doubles.

 

[TamaskaLEM]

When Sakurai himself suggests this mode for parties, I think we should take it about as seriously as the developers have when it comes to 1v1 itemless play.

Isn't this whole game a party game?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Source on that, please?

Sigh, my source is the only footage we have of this mode. Lucas uses his final smash, emptying his meter, gets OHKOd by Marth's 38% attack, respawns with 38% meter.

I'm beginning to think very few people have watched these thirty seconds to examine the final smash meter in action before thinking it sounds fun and calling out the smash community pre-emptively for being resistant to change. It's incredibly cynical and ignores key parts of Smash 4's history. Smash 4 being the only "community" that will be carried over to Ultimate, the same one that brought custom moves to their game's very first EVO.

 

[TamaskaLEM]

Sure, custom moves proved to be a flawed idea. Can't exactly fault the community for trying. It was a fresh idea that helped out characters like Ganondorf and Palutena. It just made other characters like the Villager OP.

I get that we can already see the cracks with an already op character like Bayo being more so with one of the best fs in the game. I still think it's worth a try just to see how the meta will change because of it. As everyone noted, we don't know enough to say how well it would do. In the video when Mario uses his FS, the damage the opponents were hit with ranges from 15-30%. As far as we know, it's just a small damage dealer.

 

[Iron Maw]

It should be, Sakurai's bending over backwards to make aspects of the game more esports friendly (stage hazards, saveable rules) and it would be a shame if it all just gets ignored.

This. It clearly aimed the competitive scene. Sakurai and his team are certainly familiar with fighting genre to know things like this are standard. I'm sure lots of people though Supers were broken way back in the day and came up with every excuse they could thing of claim otherwise. When the concept came to be just liked combos. They work out fine despite the risks and community adapted as devs adjusted. This how series adapt and evolve. There no reason keep the status quo for sake of it. It also has lot of pontieal to expand the meta and give characters more options to deal other situations they otherwise can't. Surely make Top vs Low tiers less of streamroller fest because some characters are already inherently weaker anyway.

Besides Smash wasn't initially a competive game series to begin with the commuity made work. So I find this a rather hollow excuse at stage. If the moves are beyond broken fine ban the mechainc, but not because are some stronger or weaker than others. Supers in alot of fighters are not equal usage and utility either, with some have support roles and other being pure damage. So I'm not even sure where implication that they are same came from, not every game follows the SF method beyond meter usage.

Sigh, my source is the only footage we have of this mode. Lucas uses his final smash, emptying his meter, gets OHKOd by Marth's 38% attack, respawns with 38% meter.

I'm beginning to think very few people have watched these thirty seconds to examine the final smash meter in action before thinking it sounds fun and calling out the smash community pre-emptively for being resistant to change. It's incredibly cynical and ignores key parts of Smash 4's history. Smash 4 being the only "community" that will be carried over to Ultimate, the same one that brought custom moves to their game's very first EVO.

Lots fighters such as SCVI carry meter over rounds regardless of you win or lose and still remain balnced. Moreover if FS can't kill until at least 70 having it early doesn't give you much of advantage. You also lose you neutral B for keeping. If the FSM is balanced then best thing you get out of having at start is just doing some damage.

And situation surrounding customs were terrible, but that also had far more problems inherent to design from logistics to the shear unpredictable nature of kind of moves your opponent had. FSM is universal mechanic that everyone gets and builds the same way with one static special attack that known everyone even if specials each functions differently. Whatever issue might arrive later it's already more competitive CM and arguably stuff like WT, Limit, Tipper etc because of it's universal nature.

 

[Armagon]

I just see the mechanic as a way to make the game much faster-paced and more enjoyable between audiences and players alike.

This. A lot of people here are talking about how Final Smash meters would affect the players but almost no one is talking about how it affects the spectators. Sakurai has been adding lots of little things to make the game more fun to watch, such as the slow-mo effects on strong hits, the score after each stock is taken, etc. Final Smashes are hype and i can't imagine spectators not enjoying them.

 

[GUIGUI]

Sigh, my source is the only footage we have of this mode. Lucas uses his final smash, emptying his meter, gets OHKOd by Marth's 38% attack, respawns with 38% meter.

Well, spotted. The black bar with the text was hidding it most of the time, it completely escaped me. By the way, it also confirm that the FS fill out by taking damage. and it fill out quite fast, too.

 

[Iron Maw]

Well, spotted. The black bar with the text was hidding it most of the time, it completely escaped me. By the way, it also confirm that the FS fill out by taking damage. and it fill out quite fast, too.

Could be from the fact he was killed by an FS.

 

[Vulgun]

There's definitely a demand by players and spectators to see Final Smash meters in action once the game releases. The Final Smashes will probably not only keep the audience invested in watching, but could also draw in more viewership for Ultimate than any other Smash title to date.

If the community wants to grab the attention of spectators, I think we should be willing to try this out. And if it manages to grab a lot of viewership and positive feedback from the audience, it should definitely stay or prolong itself.

 

[Crystanium]

Here's a thought. If Squad Strike could be used in conjunction with Stamina Mode, then perhaps Final Smash could be used. This would be because the only way to defeat your opponent is by reducing health. Knock-back would have no effect to risk potentially killing your opponent by knocking him or her off the stage. Otherwise, if Stamina Mode can have more than two stocks, then I could see Final Smash having a role.

 

[Graufa]

Since Ultimate appears to be very similair to Sm4sh this along with potentially 3v3 Squads could really help the game stand out. I doubt most people would be able to tell the difference between Ultimate and Sm4sh otherwise.

It is worth noting though that this has a very low chance of actually being accepted, at best it will be featured once at one major tourney like customs and that's about it. I just really like the idea of 3v3 squads and allowing chargeable Final Smash Jrs. to be added makes having that illusive third stock more of a possibility.

 

[GUIGUI]

at best it will be featured once at one major tourney like customs and that's about it.

EVO was the one that did it. At leastit allowed to show if it was worth doing it. In reaction to what just has happened, EVO might actually set that to make sure the next tournament is actually entertaining.

 

[Graufa]

Also when it comes to customs, arguably the worst part about them was unlocking every single move for each character. With chargeable Final Smash Jrs. we won't have that issue.

 

[TamaskaLEM]

Oh wow. Cut my last point. I was only paying attention to the Mario portion. That Marth kill was at a incredibly low percent. Can't exactly see where the nerf is suppose to take place there.

 

[Vulgun]

So, what cons really are there for Final Smash Meters, if any, really?

One main argument (which falters very quickly) is that Final Smashes are too overpowered, even with the meters on. While it's true that Infernal Climax is an elongated Witch TIme, it's a double edged sword because it increases invincibility frames, as well, and we don't know if it's been nerfed in terms of duration or charging up for the second phase.

And while it's also true that Marcina's Critical Hit deals supermassive knockback, let's be real, you shouldn't be hit by that Final Smash at all since it's extremely predictable. Maybe if you were hit into it, it could be overpowering.

Also, we have to remember that all of this is pre-release footage. They could nerf Critical Hit and Infernal Climax before the release of the game.

 

[Iron Maw]

Metered FS might also be blockable unlike their Smash Ball counterparts.

 

[soviet prince]

seems like a lot of ppl survived being hit with a FS in the footage I seen

 

[Thinkaman]

Final Smashes are clearly made for FFAs, in both design and balance. (Historical and observed)

In a 1v1 setting, not only do you have some characters like Ness, Lucas, Jigglypuff, or ZSS (big slow aoe attacks that 1 person can casually avoid), but you also reduce the outcome of the game to a very narrow set of interactions.

It's like giving everyone in the game KO Punch, except without the careful weaknesses and counterplay designed into Little Mac.

 

[IvanQuote]

Regarding the speed at which the meter fills in the trailer, there was similar discussion about Little Mac’s meter and that one was sped up for his trailer’s convenience; perhaps it’s the same here. Regarding the issue of this thread, I think it should at least be given a chance like customs were. Test it out in some smaller tournaments to see how characters fare, maybe have it in one large one.

 

[Thinkaman]

The comparisons to customs doesn't make any sense. Customs are no different than additional characters or echoes.

Final Smash meters make Smash Bros. into a different game entirely, just like Stamina Mode or Coin Mode. This is true independent of balance concerns.

 

[Vulgun]

Final Smashes are clearly made for FFAs, in both design and balance. (Historical and observed)

In a 1v1 setting, not only do you have some characters like Ness, Lucas, Jigglypuff, or ZSS (big slow aoe attacks that 1 person can casually avoid), but you also reduce the outcome of the game to a very narrow set of interactions.

It's like giving everyone in the game KO Punch, except without the careful weaknesses and counterplay designed into Little Mac.

(Typing this while I'm tired, so forgive some errors in grammar, wording or context. I've not had the best sleep schedule lately.)

However, this time around, it seems like Final Smashes have been inherently changed to fit the need of the competitive scene, something many people have been asking for a while now.

Jigglypuff's Final Smash presents a much more prominent threat than you think. Puff Up is an attack that you cannot avoid if you're sent past the stage and Puff uses it next to the ledge. However, I will agree with you on Ness, Lucas and ZSS's Final Smashes. As for the "reducing the outcome to a narrow set of interactions", this is only true once the Final Smash is active. At any point it isn't, it's back to square one as per normal.

Additionally, I will point out again that having meters on would actually promote higher critical thinking and faster gameplay as no one wants to be struck by one. The main course of action would have to be trying to make the opponent lose stocks faster than they can charge their Final Smashes.

Lastly, your comparison of "giving everyone a KO Punch" is simply misguided and actually the wrong comparison to make for most of the Final Smashes in the game. Most Final Smashes, with meter on, compare to Cloud's Finishing Touch more than they do with KO Punch. There are a few exceptions, but the fact of the matter is that these Final Smashes don't KO early enough or have some sort of limiting factor to them that doesn't make them god-like attacks.

And I would have to disagree. Final Smashes still have their own weaknesses that can be observed through looking at previous ones and seeing just how they work. For example:

--Infernal Climax slows down the opponent, but if the opponent dodges, grabs the ledge or is too far away for Bayonetta to reach them, they can wait out the timer more efficiently.
--Giga Bowser is a mighty punch with massive range, but it's also very slow to aim the move itself and there's no guarantee that it will even hit in the first place thanks to directional air dodges.
--Giga Mac is a swift flurry of punches, but it's not as powerful as KO Punch with meters on and it requries Mac to be up close to the opponent for it to work out properly.
--Octopus can carry people off to their death. However, it has extremely high start up, pushes itself back and can be dodged by a triple jump.

Do you see what I'm getting at now? Final Smashes have their weaknesses, and meters may even make these weaknesses more apparent.

---------------------------

And remember, there is still time between now and the release of Ultimate. By then, Final Smashes could've been nerfed more or something additional could've been added to the meters to make them even more competitively viable. Again, time will tell, much like time will tell about testing the Final Smashes in tournaments for once.

And if the spectators enjoy the Final Smash meter option, there would be one big thorn in trying to remove it.

 

[Nintykid]

I hate how most people is saying No when we don't really know how weaken these Final Smashes are.

I say we should at least Give these a chance. THEN will see if they are good or not. Everyone brings up Marth killing Lucas at 20%, but you can argue that there are some factor that we still don't know about Marth's FS, since Lucas was at ponit blank range when this happened. We don't know if it will take Marth acrooss the screen upon activation, if it's just as fast as normal. Same with Bayo, since we have no idea what a weaken verison of her Witch Time might be.

THey might still be tweaking with the Chargable Final Smashes right now, so we can't really say. We have Four more month for this game to come out dangit

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Meter is extremely likely to be quick-banned within a week unless they drastically nerf Final Smashes along with drastically decreasing the rate in which you gain and the conditions of gaining meter. 3v3s has a much better chance of being legal.

 

[Loki]

And I would have to disagree. Final Smashes still have their own weaknesses that can be observed through looking at previous ones and seeing just how they work. For example:

--Infernal Climax slows down the opponent, but if the opponent dodges, grabs the ledge or is too far away for Bayonetta to reach them, they can wait out the timer more efficiently.
--Giga Bowser is a mighty punch with massive range, but it's also very slow to aim the move itself and there's no guarantee that it will even hit in the first place thanks to directional air dodges.
--Giga Mac is a swift flurry of punches, but it's not as powerful as KO Punch with meters on and it requries Mac to be up close to the opponent for it to work out properly.
--Octopus can carry people off to their death. However, it has extremely high start up, pushes itself back and can be dodged by a triple jump.

Except for theory crafting and damage control situations we should not take the most optimistic approach. In any case we should always be mindful of the worst case scenaros.
1. No pro bayo will be dumb enough to use her FS in a situation he/she cant make the most of it. What if you are already in an aerial state? ledge trumped? low on shield?
2. Best case scenario, it KO`s at 0% because its a... "frontal KO"?... is a terminology now?
3. I seriously doubt even a watered-down mac FS would have less power than a KO-punch, if so, why even bother having it? Better get rid of it to recover your real kill move.
4. Same case as the ones before. It still looks to be a touch-of-death move. Who knows, maybe set-ups could be found to make it a reliable string.

My point is, just as we can argue for the best, we can argue for the worst... and the worst aaaaaalways sounds way uglier than how good the good might sound.

I hate how most people is saying No when we don't really know how weaken these Final Smashes are.

I say we should at least Give these a chance. THEN will see if they are good or not. Everyone brings up Marth killing Lucas at 20%, but you can argue that there are some factor that we still don't know about Marth's FS, since Lucas was at ponit blank range when this happened. We don't know if it will take Marth acrooss the screen upon activation, if it's just as fast as normal. Same with Bayo, since we have no idea what a weaken verison of her Witch Time might be.

THey might still be tweaking with the Chargable Final Smashes right now, so we can't really say. We have Four more month for this game to come out dangit

Except we also have to bring down a notch or two the people that want to start doing things without putting much tought on them because of how novel them might be. For example, I was a pro-customs when smash 4, everyone told me to put my feet on the ground but I gave no ****s. After I myself tried to logistics and all the work that had to be put behind them, I saw how optimisticly naive I was being.

We have to approach this with a grain of salt. In a first look, by the sheer nature of FS we can make arguments on why they are a bad idea on a competitive scene, however if data and the community as a whole come to terms with it, then it can be made to work. Otherwise it is too soon to start hyping people about the prospect of final smashes in competitive play.

Dont get me wrong, I would love FS to become a thing if Sakurai and CO. actually went the extra mile to one by one work each FS to be on point regarding 1v1s, but I am not fooling myself at the idea, nor letting myself get carried away and neither should people let themselves be let down whenever it turns out FS werent actually viable in 1v1.

If anything, right now there are more cons than pros to be discussed, therefore anymore discussion should be let posponed till the day we can finally start getting proper data on it.

 

[Iron Maw]

Final Smashes are clearly made for FFAs, in both design and balance. (Historical and observed)

In a 1v1 setting, not only do you have some characters like Ness, Lucas, Jigglypuff, or ZSS (big slow aoe attacks that 1 person can casually avoid), but you also reduce the outcome of the game to a very narrow set of interactions.

It's like giving everyone in the game KO Punch, except without the careful weaknesses and counterplay designed into Little Mac.

This is talking as if FS haven't changed mechanically between Brawl and Ultimate there aren't vast differences. Originally FS were essentially randomized items that actives Supers that you need to chase a ball over the screen to get. They couldn't be blocked and only dodged, once gotten you pretty much instantly won the game since they kill no matter what percentage. There effects such as transforms that took up chunks of the whole screen and stuff were gimmicky power ups that heal to 100%.

In Ultimate FS have undergone mechanical and conceptual changes. There are no longer transformation and gimmicky power ups ones are pretty much gone, replaced by cinematic Supers a'la Critical Arts (SFIV) or Rage Arts (T7). They have seemly been centralized into single hit active moves or area of effect hitting attacks. This further built into FSM which completely changes how FS work. Now there is no longer a random factor since they are tied to a resource everyone can get. Their damage and duration are heavily reduced, so they are unlikely to kill you early (see Mario, Lucas and Samus, jury is still out how Marth's will be affected) and whether they are blocked unknown under this mechanic, but even with just the above things are much fairer. They aren't autowin buttons anymore.

Sakurai and co aren't just slapping a meter on and calling it a day. There is a clear conscious effort taken in the balance in relation into existing systems and concepts. I don't except it to be perfect day one, but they are hardly be a game killing nightmare some people are freaking out about. The devs aren't oblivious to things this basic.

The comparisons to customs doesn't make any sense. Customs are no different than additional characters or echoes.

Final Smash meters make Smash Bros. into a different game entirely, just like Stamina Mode or Coin Mode. This is true independent of balance concerns.

CSM and FS are basically extra moves that alter the characters in some way conceptually. FS however are inherit to a character, completely predictable to both players unlike CSM which required a host of rules even getting past logistics to use and implement them.

I agree they will definitely impact in meta, but they aren't gonna be any different what you already in doing Smash. We already have kill moves (True Shroyuken, Bouncing Fish, Limit Skills etc) which one of bigs reason why top and high tiers are where they are aren't threatened at all by mid to low tiers. Access to a FS helps here especially for those have hard time killing. It won't fix everything about those characters and timing and setups still going to be required to make the most of them like Lucas' Starstream due how some of them work. You also lose something exchange for having them (normal neutral B) so characters will also have to work around that. So they are far more likely to act extra tools in a their box rather then all encompassing overcentralizing aspect of them. FS will their own nanuce based on the character and situation within matches, but it will most likely a another thing you need taken account in match ups, not somethng it's replaces your character nor is it always availabe.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Evo is gonna force it on, just like with items in Brawl and customs in 4's first year.

 

[Xebenkeck]

I say no simply because of this age old reason.

Marth gets his final smash filled you are at 130% and die to his fsmash. You respawn he then hits you with his final smash. Boom 2 stocks gone in potetially less then 5 secs.

Even lessened some final smashs will still kill no matter the percent.

They just simply are not balanced. Its a shame but its the truth.

 

[Master_Gamer]

It should be, Sakurai's bending over backwards to make aspects of the game more esports friendly (stage hazards, saveable rules) and it would be a shame if it all just gets ignored.

Agreed

I'm just gonna quote something I heard Mew2King say on stream yesterday. He was saying that we SHOULD test out these new features in tournaments and side events. Then as time goes on, slowly rule out what can stay and what should go. Cause if you don't try to use anything, then you'll never know what we can use. But if we just try everything for a while, eventually we can refine it all down to the most fun and competitive experience Smash has to offer. So I say yeah, for the first 5 - 6 months, let this stuff ride. Let's use Stage Morphs. Let's use the Final Smash Meter. Let's use Squad Strike. Let's use all the awesome features that Papa Sakurai has created for us. Then over time we can weed out what does and doesn't work. Plus I feel like we should at the VERY LEAST honor Sakurai and his team's hard work to bring us such an amazing game and utilize the great and amazing features they worked so hard to make for us. Let's put on an amazing show for the world, then after most of the hype has died down, we can go back to the tried and true way of Smash.

TL;DR: We should try all these new features in competitive for a while so we can get a feel for them. Then after seeing a good amount of high level play, then we can decide what we can keep and what we can't keep in the rules. Plus I think it would do good to honor Sakurai and his team's hard work by showing the world what this game has to offer.

 

[Nintykid]

I say no simply because of this age old reason.

Marth gets his final smash filled you are at 130% and die to his fsmash. You respawn he then hits you with his final smash. Boom 2 stocks gone in potetially less then 5 secs.

Even lessened some final smashs will still kill no matter the percent.

They just simply are not balanced. Its a shame but its the truth.

Before we go to that conclusion, I'd say we test them out first...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

And one more thing, I strongly disagree that having these flashy kill moves is going to improve smash as a spectator sport. Because the minute somebody gets their final smash, the other player is going to want to camp, use extremely safe moves, and hide behind defensive options since they're only means of safety is physically avoiding the final smash or reading their opponent with a dodge. If you could knock your opponent's final smash out of them, like with dumb items on, it would at least encourage some avenue of agressive play. But as is this takes the worst parts of Brawl/Smash 4's gameplay and cranks it up to 11. Also what's exciting about two characters using the same super move over and over? Especially since getting hit by a final smash makes it extremely likely you'll charge your own and use it upon respawning.

Plus it would suck for players when the meta for this mode will only favor characters that a) have good final smashes for a 1v1 setting, and b) can combo into those final smashes easily off of a grab or a noncommital aerial or Dtilt.

 

[Thinkaman]

Because the minute somebody gets their final smash, the other player is going to want to camp, use extremely safe moves, and hide behind defensive options since they're only means of safety is physically avoiding the final smash or reading their opponent with a dodge. If you could knock your opponent's final smash out of them, like with dumb items on, it would at least encourage some avenue of agressive play. But as is this takes the worst parts of Brawl/Smash 4's gameplay and cranks it up to 11.

This isn't just theory. Those of us experienced in Smash 4 know how things grind to a halt the moment Little Mac gets KO Punch.

With Mac, it's an acceptable change of pace, because the rest of the Little Mac matches are excessively fast and intense, and it only takes a single hit to knock it out of Little Mac.

But neither of these apply to Final Smash meters. It's clear that they are designed for wacky hijink in chaotic free-for-alls, where this problem does not apply. (And of course, this was precisely how the idea was pitched to us in the direct: "BTW, in addition to Stamina mode, here's another crazy option; this one is great for parties.")

Plus it would suck for players when the meta for this mode will only favor characters that a) have good final smashes for a 1v1 setting, and b) can combo into those final smashes easily off of a grab or a noncommital aerial or Dtilt.

Let's play a quick game everyone, which list of characters do you think will be more likely to have common moves that combo into their Final Smash?

 

[TheMisterManGuy]

Because the minute somebody gets their final smash, the other player is going to want to camp, use extremely safe moves, and hide behind defensive options since they're only means of safety is physically avoiding the final smash or reading their opponent with a dodge.

That would be correct, if there was no risks to using a Final Smash. While we don't know this yet, it's possible FS this time could be placed on a countdown timer similar to Cloud's limit break. IE, you have to use it within the next 15 seconds, or your charge is gone. And Meter FS could also still be lost upon KO. That would eliminate the campiness, as both would encourage the player to eliminate the opponent's stock as fast as possible to keep his FS from being used. And it'd put much more pressure on the opponent to use their Final Smash as quickly as possible or risk loosing that charge.

But neither of these apply to Final Smash meters. It's clear that they are designed for wacky hijink in chaotic free-for-alls, where this problem does not apply. (And of course, this was precisely how the idea was pitched to us in the direct: "BTW, in addition to Stamina mode, here's another crazy option; this one is great for parties.")

Yes, they did say that it was great for parties. But this is also something that was implemented with the competitive scene in mind as well, since these are being balanced to be much weaker than the Smash Ball equivalents, as well as limiting their use to only one player at a time. A mechanic can work in both settings you know.

 

[Iron Maw]

And one more thing, I strongly disagree that having these flashy kill moves is going to improve smash as a spectator sport. Because the minute somebody gets their final smash, the other player is going to want to camp, use extremely safe moves, and hide behind defensive options since they're only means of safety is physically avoiding the final smash or reading their opponent with a dodge. If you could knock your opponent's final smash out of them, like with dumb items on, it would at least encourage some avenue of agressive play. But as is this takes the worst parts of Brawl/Smash 4's gameplay and cranks it up to 11. Also what's exciting about two characters using the same super move over and over? Especially since getting hit by a final smash makes it extremely likely you'll charge your own and use it upon respawning.

Plus it would suck for players when the meta for this mode will only favor characters that a) have good final smashes for a 1v1 setting, and b) can combo into those final smashes easily off of a grab or a noncommital aerial or Dtilt.

You say this as Smash doesn't already do this and unlike with FS you need to lose Neutral B for it. How is camping is worthwhile if you not gonna land anything and you need to take damage to raise you meter at all to begin with? Just keep getting yourself nearly killed just so shot you might kill somebody when most FS probably won't kill until around 80%? Nevermind that you lose it once it is done and have likely get beat up again to get back. How in the world is this practical or even remotely helpful than fighting normally and using FS based on the situation? Even if your meter carries over stocks you need to land the move that opponent still needs to be in kill range and you have the risk of it being dodged or potentially blocked.

Also some characters having better FS than others not a problem. Characters like Cloud already have inherently better movesets than someone like Jiggs. So lets not pretend everyone always on some equal playing field until FS came. It doesn't mean it they can't be worked around. Even without it this won't change anyway. But with an FS Jiggs might have better chance at beating him however slight that is.

And characters already use the same combo and moves over and again. In fact I stopped watching competitive Smash last year for that reason. It seemed like nothing was advancing Bayo and most of top tier were largely running roughshod over most cast with little counterplay. FS at least opens potenial character like Zelda to make themselves a threat to someone like Bayo in combination with their other buffs. Maybe even win a tournament. At the end of day we know nothing of how this will work until it is actually put in practice and tested extensively. You and I have no idea how meta will work with this.

EDIT:

Yes, they did say that it was great for parties. But this is also something that was implemented with the competitive scene in mind as well, since these are being balanced to be much weaker than the Smash Ball equivalents, as well as limiting their use to only one player at a time. A mechanic can work in both settings you know.

Plus if anyone wants what to do that why even go with this over a Smash Ball that serves that purpose anyway? Watered down versions of stuff like this only really benefit competitive play and what people have been asking Sakurai for long since Brawl so they can be incorporated into meta practically.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Before we go to that conclusion, I'd say we test them out first...

Dont worry the smash community for sure will give it a try first. And we absolutely should.

I just feel in the end the absurd imbalance it will create between characters will be what kills it. The smash community is fairly consistent in getting rid of cheap/cheese tactics quickly.

Examples walk offs, infanate planking, walls, circle camping stages , these are all banned things partly because certain characters become over centralizing because they can abuse the mechanic way better than everyone else.

There will likely be characters that can abuse their final smash in more ways then others can. Which will overcentralize the meta to certain characters which any one who enjoys balance wont play/watch the game for long, or they will simply change the ruleset.