Final Smash Meter, will it be tourney legal?

gramkracka22

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#42
But isn't it basically what every other fighting games do anyway?
Every fighting game is built around life bars, whereas smash is built around knocking your opponent out. So that comparison doesn't really cross over. In smash a lot of characters strength or weakness is their ability to knock out.

In other fighters, supers are a risk reward thing. You usually have a bar of meter than can be spent on reversals, combo extenders, combo breakers, supers, etc. so it adds a lot of depth on how you want to use that meter too. In smash ultimate, simply just giving everyone a big *** finisher takes away from individual character balancing.
 

TamaskaLEM

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#43
I think it mentioned that the FS will be nerfed hard in this mode.

I do see your point though. There is a chance that having this option will make Sheik the best again.
 

FieryRebirth

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#44
It should be, Sakurai's bending over backwards to make aspects of the game more esports friendly (stage hazards, saveable rules) and it would be a shame if it all just gets ignored.
I noticed this too. Sakurai is playing all his appeal-to cards with this new game, but little does he know how much sticks in the mud the Smash community can be, especially in competitive. He'll never satisfy the Melee competitive, that's for sure.

As someone who sits between casual and competitive and acknowledges the fun to be had with items or FSes, on or off, I'm trying to figure out what Sakurai was trying to go for with this option.
 
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EdreesesPieces

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#45
What's to stop Link from bombing himself and building up his KO mater, running away and only using final smashes? IN SF and other games you don't have the freedom of movement or ability to damage yourself to build up your meter. It's too easily abused in a game like Smash.

They at the very minimum should make sure self damaging moves do not build up the meter otherwise it will be ruled out immediately.

But isn't it basically what every other fighting games do anyway?
Other fighitng games also play stamina mode essentially. Smash is and never has tried to be other fighting games, otherwise we'd adopt stamina. Smash has too much freedom of movement to be comparable to other fighting games with something like this. In a fighting game the main purpose of the game is to damage your opponent until he runs out of health. In Smash, the purpose of the game is it knock your character off the stage.

If we tried to make Smash like other fighting games we'd first change to Stamina mode to make smash's purpose to drain the opponents health. But we don't do that because Smash is it's own thing.

If we did this Smash WOULD be like other fighting games. Edgeguarding would mean nothing, positinoing would be worth very little. The game would be all about dishing and taking damage with the goal of getting a final smash to OHKO (essentially drain your opponents health). It would be a completely different game.

I like HungryBox's idea. It's competitively viable to do that, it's just a different game and should be treated as such. (A different event)
 
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GUIGUI

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#46
What's to stop Link from bombing himself and building up his KO mater, running away and only using final smashes? IN SF and other games you don't have the freedom of movement or ability to damage yourself to build up your meter. It's too easily abused in a game like Smash.

They at the very minimum should make sure self damaging moves do not build up the meter otherwise it will be ruled out immediately.
The fact that
1. We don't know what it actually take to build up the FS meter
2. Even if taking damge does it, this is a terrible strategy, seeing that Link's FS is actually rather easy to avoid
3. Building self damage is NEVER a winning strategy. Only Noob Lucario player think so and they learn they are wrong the hard way. Even when taking damage make you stronger, the winning strategy is always to take as litle damage as possible so that when you actually are strong, your opponent is already quite damaged too.
 

EdreesesPieces

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#47
I see a lot of complaining about Marth killing Lucas at 20%, Final Smashes covering a lot of area, and so forth, but let's face it: the last two Smash games have had pretty significant problems with stocks just lasting too long due in part to slower match pace, but also due to there being fewer kill moves that are increasingly hard to land. If a more offensive game is desired, early kills with Final Smashes certainly won't hurt.
I believe this has been corrected in Smash Ult. by drastically increasing the damage percentages of all moves in 1v1 mode.

The fact that
1. We don't know what it actually take to build up the FS meter
2. Even if taking damge does it, this is a terrible strategy, seeing that Link's FS is actually rather easy to avoid
3. Building self damage is NEVER a winning strategy. Only Noob Lucario player think so and they learn they are wrong the hard way. Even when taking damage make you stronger, the winning strategy is always to take as litle damage as possible so that when you actually are strong, your opponent is already quite damaged too.
Well the fear is that right now that's never the winning strategy but with this smash meter on that could change things. I'm not saying it will, just that it's a serious concern. Link isn't the only one with self damaging moves. Also Toon Link and Young Link, and anyone with blast projectiles (maybe duck hunt dog?)

What about stages with Hazards on? Does jumping into a hazard raise your meter?
 
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GUIGUI

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#48
Well the fear is that right now that's never the winning strategy but with this smash meter on that could change things.
It's NEVER the winning strategy. How can people be so dense?
Getting powerful and damaged while your opponent is also far damaged>>>>>>>>>>> Getting powerful and damaged while your opponent is still healthy
forever and ever. always.

It's common freaking sense.
 
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#49
What's to stop Link from bombing himself and building up his KO mater, running away and only using final smashes? IN SF and other games you don't have the freedom of movement or ability to damage yourself to build up your meter. It's too easily abused in a game like Smash. to )

What’s is to stop little Mac from taking a beating to get his K.O meter up?
 
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TamaskaLEM

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#51
If Link is going to blow himself up just to get that FS, he probably deserves it.
 
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#52
its worth trying at least, there is no reason to just ban them before we get the game and try them out in some locals. We tried customs for a bit and while they didnt pan out that doesnt mean we shouldnt try other things that might make the game more fun to play/watch
 

skstylez

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#53
Sadly no matter how well they balance it, there is an issue of the B-button input. For example, you could no longer use Mario's fireball when your meter fills. Other games have a separate input for supers.

Unless they have a separate dedicated button mapped for final smash, it just wouldn't work. It'd be like if Ryu could no longer use Hadouken until he spends his special in Street Fighter.
 

GUIGUI

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#54
Sadly no matter how well they balance it, there is an issue of the B-button input. For example, you could no longer use Mario's fireball when your meter fills. Other games have a separate input for supers.

Unless they have a separate dedicated button mapped for final smash, it just wouldn't work. It'd be like if Ryu could no longer use Hadouken until he spends his special in Street Fighter.
well, the inability of using the neutral special can be see as a balance of getting the FS.
 

captainghost07

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#55
Can't believe people are already saying No; when we don't even know
1. How much damage each Final Smash does
2. How long it takes to charge the meter
3. If the Final Smash can be perfect shielded
4. If there is a timer on the meter just like Cloud's limit break
The same people that are saying No, are the same people that say we should just stick to only 7 legal stages. The best thing to do is to experiment for the first month or 2 of the game's release instead of trying to already come up with rule-sets.
 

HenryXLII

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#56
While the idea is cool they wont be legal two reasons. Super moves are balanced by the fact that they cost meter, and that meter is usually best spent on other meter eating resources like combo breakers and enhanced moves. I doubt we can spend the meter on anything else, so there really is not reason NOT to use your final smash. The second thing is that most super moves in fighting games can be blocked and thus easily wasted. So It's certainly a no if you cant block the weaker version.
 

TheMisterManGuy

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#57
The second thing is that most super moves in fighting games can be blocked and thus easily wasted. So It's certainly a no if you cant block the weaker version.
Most Final Smashes in the game can be easily dodged or avoided, so blocking isn't as important as dodging then punishing.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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#58
Most Final Smashes in the game can be easily dodged or avoided, so blocking isn't as important as dodging then punishing.
You pretty much have no choice but to dodge anyway, since shields are useless against almost every Final Smash. But because dodging too much reduces the intangible duration, you could be in big trouble if a Final Smash occurs, and the intangible period for your dodge is too short to avoid getting hit.
 

TheMisterManGuy

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#59
You pretty much have no choice but to dodge anyway, since shields are useless against almost every Final Smash. But because dodging too much reduces the intangible duration, you could be in big trouble if a Final Smash occurs, and the intangible period for your dodge is too short to avoid getting hit.
That means you'll need to use dodges a lot more efficiently. In Smash 4, you could dodge all you want until you get caught. But now, you'll need to prioritize aggressive strategies over defense.
 

TamaskaLEM

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#61
Even before this meter thing, there were always a strategy in using them. There was the tried and true use it immediate to take a stock or take that stock out yourself and save it for afterwards. Second option always ran the risk of having that Smash Ball knocked out of you.

That got me thinking; what if this full meter isn't sustainable like the ball or Little Mac's KO punch? Like before, there would be this sense of urgency to use it and for the opposition to play the keep away game. That would add a little bit of depth to the situation.
 
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HenryXLII

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#62
Most Final Smashes in the game can be easily dodged or avoided, so blocking isn't as important as dodging then punishing.
Thats the thing though, You have no choice BUT to dodge them. Being able to block a super move is something you can do on reaction. Actively avoiding it is a different story. We can already see an example with Cloud Limit and Mac's K.O punch, where the best solution is to run away until they use it. Promoting a really campy play style.
 

TheMisterManGuy

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#63
Thats the thing though, You have no choice BUT to dodge them. Being able to block a super move is something you can do on reaction. Actively avoiding it is a different story. We can already see an example with Cloud Limit and Mac's K.O punch, where the best solution is to run away until they use it. Promoting a really campy play style.
If they're weaker, they you could be able to Shield or Ground dodge nearly all of them. Another option is simply to eliminate their stock before they can get the chance to use it.
 

Loki

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#64
Most Final Smashes in the game can be easily dodged or avoided, so blocking isn't as important as dodging then punishing.
How do you avoid Bayo`s time-slow? You can`t, you simply man up and take it. If she lands a single hit on you and you anything close to, dunno, 100% damage you can kiss your stock good-bye. Good luck avoiding Bayo while the whole game but her is slowed.

Bayo would get rewarded with a ultra strong special every, say, 2 minutes simply because of hitting you or being hit. There`s no counter-play to a global slow.

This is just an example of one very strong FS. I dont know if other FS will have different fill times to justify and balance the power discrepancy, but really... if all FS were similar in power no one would be saying no, but thing is, some FS are pretty busted while others are left eating the dust. Sure we could make an argument that that is an intersting balance desicion, pick a good character or pick an avereage character with a godly FS, but I assure you, there will be issues again, specially with the above mentioned FS.

Wanna try it out, sure, be my guests, but dont get mad if this doesn`t goes throu by obvious reasons.
 
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TheMisterManGuy

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#66
How do you avoid Bayo`s time-slow? You can`t, you simply man up and take it. If she lands a single hit on you and you anything close to, dunno, 100% damage you can kiss your stock good-bye. Good luck avoiding Bayo while the whole game but her is slowed.
They could alter some of the FS like this so that they're easier to play around. Bayo's FS would be the same, only without the time slow, thus, giving the player ample time to counter it.
 

TamaskaLEM

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#67
For the moment, Bayo's FS still have that time stop. Whether it'll change in the final production seems uncertain.
 

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#68
As fun as it could be for casual matches, I don't see it happening. The in-balance between them is basically overpowered or promote camping with no in-between.

Overpowered: :ultolimar::ultpacman::ultpeach::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultsonic:
Camping::ultfalcon::ultcorrin::ultdk::ultdoc::ultduckhunt::ultfalco::ultfox::ultganondorf::ultinkling::ultkingdedede::ultkirby::ultlink::ultlittlemac::ultlucas::ultluigi::ultmario::ultmegaman::ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultmiifighters::ultness::ultpalutena::ultsheik::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultpokemontrainer::ultridley::ultryu::ultsamus::ultshulk::ultsnake::ulttoonlink::ultvillager::ultwario::ultwiifittrainer::ultwolf::ultzelda::ultzss:Simon, Richter, Dark Samus, K. Rool,
Both: :ultbayonetta::ultbowser::ultbowserjr::ultcloud::ulticeclimbers::ultike::ultjigglypuff::ultmarth::ultlucina::ultgnw::ultrosalina::ultroy:Chrom
???: :ultdiddy::ultgreninja::ultlucario::ultdaisy::ultrob::ultrobin:ultyoshi::ultyounglink:

Am assuming a couple of the unseen Final Smashes here, but I think the point still stands. Agreed on the lack of a dedicated button being a problem.
 
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Flowen231

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#69
well, the inability of using the neutral special can be see as a balance of getting the FS.
That may be a fair point if it wasn't a fact that final smashes are objectively better than a neutral special.

I also don't find KO punch to be a good point of comparison between the two because KO punch is far harder to land than most of the final smashes in the game (come to think of it, wouldn't mac still have KO punch even if the meter was turned on?). And unlike a meter, it's not hard to get rid of KO punch, you just have to put mac into tumble which is a cinch unless he's beating your butt uncontested the entire match, at which point KO punch is an unchallenged threat because of the skill gap between players.

The fact of the matter is that having a way for character to just kill at will without much effort at mid percents combined with the fact that some final smashes are trash anyway brings more negatives than positives, especially as mentioned before that unlike the traditional fighting game, smash meter doesn't add any depth past a big finishing move.

I absolutely think there's a 0% chance that it will happen, and if I were being generous, I'd say it could happen for a while and be quickly done away with like custom moves.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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#70
Now that I think about it, Demon King Ganon seems to slow down everyone upon appearing now, which makes it (nearly) impossible for anyone to avoid his paralyzing attack if they're within his line of sight. Super armor may end up being the only thing that saves fighters from suffering the paralysis effect, and even then, the fighter will still take a large amount of damage when Ganon starts to charge at his targets.
 
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gramkracka22

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#71
That may be a fair point if it wasn't a fact that final smashes are objectively better than a neutral special.

I also don't find KO punch to be a good point of comparison between the two because KO punch is far harder to land than most of the final smashes in the game (come to think of it, wouldn't mac still have KO punch even if the meter was turned on?). And unlike a meter, it's not hard to get rid of KO punch, you just have to put mac into tumble which is a cinch unless he's beating your butt uncontested the entire match, at which point KO punch is an unchallenged threat because of the skill gap between players.

The fact of the matter is that having a way for character to just kill at will without much effort at mid percents combined with the fact that some final smashes are trash anyway brings more negatives than positives, especially as mentioned before that unlike the traditional fighting game, smash meter doesn't add any depth past a big finishing move.

I absolutely think there's a 0% chance that it will happen, and if I were being generous, I'd say it could happen for a while and be quickly done away with like custom moves.
Just because a super is better than a special, doesn't mean you wouldn't want to still have the option. Imagine if it street fighter, you could no longer cast a fireball simply because you had full meter, it'd be retarded. There are mind games that come with having full meter and the option to use your super. If you know your opponent HAS to use it, then you are just going to be rolling in circles hoping you luckily dodge it.
 

Keeshu

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#72
Shouldn't be saying some Final Smashes are OP when we haven't even seen the nerfed versions of the final smashes yet. I know I want them in badly because it can make people behave differently when people are almost/fully charged compared to no charge. I also know some people are going to have a kneejerk reaction to final smashes and not want anything to do with them. Whatever the case is, we don't know enough about final smashes yet. Even if we did know a lot, we have to test it for a while first before saying no. There might also be patches that can change things up as well if they really wanted to make it more competitive. Like weakening final Smashes (or possibly buffing some that do absolutely nothing. that is a possibility.), making the meter charge more slowly, making it so the meter doesn't carry over with your death, etc..

Some thing I've noticed. Some characters won't be able to use their Final Smash (others have noticed that here). However, with that said, some characters aren't effected as much by this. Like Meta Knight for example, how often do you see him use his Mach Tornado in competitive matches? He wouldn't be effected by the lack of using his neutral be very much. There's plenty of characters that would lack one of their main projectiles in neutral because they have a final smash. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it could just be just a thing for the player to get used to the character, but it is something that has to be considered when balancing the final smashes.
 

Flowen231

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#73
Just because a super is better than a special, doesn't mean you wouldn't want to still have the option. Imagine if it street fighter, you could no longer cast a fireball simply because you had full meter, it'd be retarded. There are mind games that come with having full meter and the option to use your super. If you know your opponent HAS to use it, then you are just going to be rolling in circles hoping you luckily dodge it.
That point isn't even relevant, the fact of the matter is that if you have a final smash, your neutral special is so obsolete that you would never, ever miss having that option in the first place because the effectiveness of a neutral special by comparison is infinitesimal in every possible situation. And I would hope that you don't roll in circles trying to avoid it, that was already easy to punish before the dodge nerf and it'd guarantee a final smash hit now unless the one with the final smash doesn't fancy the idea of rubbing brain cells together.

Also this isn't street fighter. That game has it's own ways of making meter risk vs reward, and smash simply doesn't. There's only one option; Use it, every time. When you use it, and when it's most effective are the deciding factors, but that doesn't change the fact that you're swapping out one option for an option that completely overshadows your whole move set. It's also disingenuous to compare it to street fighter because of the risk involved in throwing out a final smash. In street fighter landing a raw super isn't easy at all, and comboing into it will scale it's damage whereas in smash, final smashes are relatively risk free, especially because of your very point where the opponent is on the defensive when you have it, their thought process isn't to beat you, it's to get away from you, that alone grants you more safety than any move in the game. And unlike street fighter, when you combo into a final smash it's unscaled completely; That alone will definitely lead to cheesy low % 0 to deaths where you take a stock, get a string going near the edge, and combo into FS for a free kill. You're vying for something that would be easier to pull off and more effective than smash 4 bayo cheese.
 
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#74
I REALLY hope they do. I would love to see Final Smashes in competitive play. And between this meter, and making all of the FSs into quick super moves, they're bending over backwards to make them appealing to competitive play.
 

TheMisterManGuy

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#75
That game has it's own ways of making meter risk vs reward, and smash simply doesn't. There's only one option; Use it, every time.
Remember, normally a player looses their Final Smash upon KO, when they get the Smash Ball. So if Charged Final Smashes work the same way when the meter is full, then it makes pulling off a Final Smash a risky move since you know have to worry about loosing it upon KO, especially if your at dangerously high percents, which will force your opponent to get more aggressive and try to end your stock as fast as possible. And if the opponent can counter or perfect shield any of them, then that just makes executing a Final Smash even riskier since your opponent could punish with ease. Again, this will require a lot of experimentation and test runs by the community.
 
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Vulgun

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#76
If we're to put into account a few things that we do know about the Final Smash meters, as well as Final Smashes being used through this, I would have to say that so far, the meter shows viability as a part of the core competitive experience of Smash.

I'm of the opinion that this would be beneficial to the game and would bring in more benefits than disadvantages. Sure, you all know that Final Smashes are very powerful (but never mention that it's easy to dodge most of them), but this is actually a good thing for the speed of the game. Whether or not you would like to hear this, I think that the game would be much faster if we had them on, simply due to the threat of their presence, and the fact that using them will finish a stock efficiently.

Now I understand that the game could devolve into getting one solid interaction into the Final Smash. However, I think that the interaction would happen much later than people think it will. Firstly, how long it would take for it to devolve is purely up to how fast the meter charges itself, and it already looks like it will be a very slow charge for all players. This could, in theory, make it to where matches could go without using any Final Smash at all, due to how fast the game already is.

Secondly, most of the Final Smashes are much weaker with the meters on, which means that interactions not only have to be methodical, like other fighting games, but they have to happen later on in the game for them to work out properly. With the strength reduction of most Final Smashes, I believe that they will KO around the range of Cloud's Finishing Touch, so around 50% to 70% damage, give or take. Some will be much weaker, some will be much stronger, but they all have their own setbacks or advantages to make up for that.

If we were to take into consideration one more element for these, it's definitely the extra--and very crucial--layer of critical thinking that will happen to both players within the match. Going back to the fear of their presence, I think having the meters on will promote a faster and much more offense-oriented playstyle to both players rather than a campy and defensive playstyle. You may have people who will try to be defensive, but the mere threat and existence of a Final Smash that can and will take your stock is more than enough to convince players to try and finish off their opponent and end the match quickly enough so that the opponent has no chance of using it. This extra layer of critical thinking is what could make matches much more exciting for the players and the viewers alike. This would definitely draw in and keep viewers much more entertained than simply having a dried out system that we've all been using for nearly two decades.

Finally, while at first this will be an unwelcome change that will be tested, I believe that Final Smash meters will be the future of Ultimate and will distinguish the game from its predecessors. Even if we have to increase the amount of stocks to adjust for this, I believe the game will be much better with it on than off.

That being said, however, I also believe that we should test these out up to the first or second major tournament of Ultimate just to get a good grasp of what players, spectators and the community would think about these. Give it 2 to 3 months, then come up with the verdict. I understand that change can be difficult to grasp in this community, but Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is not like the rest of the games in the series and should be treated as its own entity when it comes to the ruleset and its philosophy.

The meters could be a welcome change in the future.
 

Wiley

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#77
I expect a new version of competitive online like For Glory. I doubt this mode will even be added in their own version of competitive play, so that means it won't be balanced for it.

Chances are super slim that this will become a thing, but I'm still pretty excited by its inclusion!
 

TheMisterManGuy

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#78
I expect a new version of competitive online like For Glory. I doubt this mode will even be added in their own version of competitive play, so that means it won't be balanced for it.
It could. For Glory was very adamant about removing any random element from the game for competitive purposes. This means no items and omega forms only. With FS now a meter and Stage Hazards now having a Switch, I can see For Glory being overhauled to include these elements.
 
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#79
Seeing that you retain your current progress to a new FS on death makes it not only possible but likely you can retain a full charge on death. Add to that no more randomly losing a final smash when taking a hit and I just don't see an appropriate level of risk for strategic use of final smashes.

But what I don't like most is the frequency of these final smashes. Looking at the footage, it seems dealing or taking about 10% are both good for charging about a tenth of your meter. So if I keep pace with my opponent and live to 100%, that's two final smashes per life. Granted the frequency of these super moves significantly reduces how long you can stay alive, it's worth remembering that final smashes have universal frame 1 invulnerability and can be comboed into with ease. They don't even have a terribly long amount of endlag, not universally anyway. And this is all before we address the significant imbalance of final smashes. Marth is still good for a OHKO, Bayonetta's can't be avoided - the best you can hope for is being near a ledge and directionally air dodging into it to avoid probably half of the slow down. Meanwhile many final smashes are made so ineffective you may as well avoid using it for fear of a punish, such as Lucas or Mario in the footage. Because now each opponent's punish game includes their own final smash.

Now I'm sure all of these problems can be balanced before release, but the fundamental question is what can the mechanic even add to the game that is sorely lacking from competitive play? When Sakurai himself suggests this mode for parties, I think we should take it about as seriously as the developers have when it comes to 1v1 itemless play.
 

TheMisterManGuy

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#80
Seeing that you retain your current progress to a new FS on death makes it not only possible but likely you can retain a full charge on death. Add to that no more randomly losing a final smash when taking a hit and I just don't see an appropriate level of risk for strategic use of final smashes.
You retain your current progress upon death. But it is possible to loose your Full Meter charge upon KO, considering you already loose your Final Smash anyway when you loose a stock. Additionally, they can add a sort of limit timer to it like they did for Cloud in this game, further forcing you to use it quickly and wisely or risk having to build up the meter again.

When Sakurai himself suggests this mode for parties
He said it can be good for parties, but its existence and reduced power also implies that it was intended for competitive play as well, both of which are likely why this option was added in the first place. Sakurai wants this game to be the Ultimate Smash Bros. experience both casually and competitively, and because he's already added stuff designed with the community in mind (Training Mode stage, Saved Rules presets, Stage Hazard toggle), it's possible he's willing to balance them for tournaments.
 
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