Final Smash: Mario vs. Link vs. Pikachu vs. Bowser (vs. Unconfirmed)

[Dylan_Tnga]

On an equal skill level, yes, fox falco marth shiek peach and falcon dominate and the higher tier has a better chance of winning, but it is still garunteed.

I meant to say it is NOT garunteed. stupid forum wont let me edit. Sorry.

 

[the grim lizard]

@Dylan...

I said you DO have to practice with whatever character. But you still missed the point. It is undeniable that it is easier to play Sheik than Bowser. Fact. And think about what you're even saying, dude! You say tiers are there; they're inevitable, and then you say that you have to practice equally no matter what. Well, the whole idea of tiers is that, one will always have a higher potential than the other. So it's NOT all about practice, which was my entire point.

And yes, tiers are made by the game designers. Do you think that when we buy the game we reprogram it so that some characters have advantages over others? No. We simply use what the game mechanics give us. Now, whether tiers are intentional that's another story. I believe that tiers are just a lack on the programmers part to correctly balance the game. I don't deny that they won't always exist, but the point is that Melee has SUCH extremes that it was pitiful.

And lastly, you really don't need to look at any evidence other than this; so I will emphasize it: you can tell how balanced the game is by what the character usage spread is. Melee was very skewed, as easy proof that you could give me one, maybe two good Mewtwo players and a list as long as my arm of good Fox players. The 64 is hard to tell this because competitive play wasn't near what it was for Melee, but the spread was a lot better. There were more Pikachu and Kirby players, for sure, but the spread was a lot better than Melee (and not just because of less characters).

Anyway, that's all I have to say. If you read nothing else, just read this, that you can tell how balanced the game is by how even the distribution of character use is. I expect a more balanced game. Tiers may be inevitable to some degree but not to the extremes that they were in Melee.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

But I said you DO have to practice with whatever character. But you still missed the point. It is undeniable that it is easier to play Sheik than Bowser. Fact. And think about what you're even saying, dude! You say tiers are there; they're inevitable, and then you say that you have to practice equally no matter what. Well, the whole idea of tiers is that, one will always have a higher potential than the other. So it's NOT all about practice, which was my entire point.

Sigh... it takes just as much practice to be good with sheik as it does to be good with bowser. Ok bowser takes a bit more dedication but you still have to learn all the matchups and whatnot. Yes you can pick sheik then learn her then beat your friends.

Screw your friends. To win, or even do well in a tournament with any character it takes hours, months, even years of practice no matter who you use. Like KevinM or Gimpyfish you could master the bowser machine, or you could go with space animals.

No matter what man, this game takes practice. Tiers never change that.

 

[the grim lizard]

The fact that you think that characters like fox will ALWAYS be top tier because he's fast and characters like bowser will ALWAYS be bottom because he's slow just goes to show how unbalanced Melee was. There are more freakin' aspects to the game than just speed. I'm going to quote something from the Bowser improvement thread, which I think, says it all:

The answer to fixing Bowser is not improving his speed or even necessarily his lag. Bowser is designed to be a slow war machine. How did the developers go wrong?

They made speed characters to strong. Bowser's reward for having slow, laggy attacks is SUPPOSE to be great knockback and attack power. But this is ruined when Fox can pull of his aerial up A or Up Smash with less startup time and lag and STILL have it be a more powerful attack.

So this is how to improve Bowser.

1. Speed characters do not have stronger moves then Bowser that are also faster with more range and less lag time.

2. Some moves that Bowser has can go through sheilds (his Smash and down B)

3. Bowser takes less stun. Just because speed characters are fast doesn't mean they should be able to take a hit better. If you hit a cheetah with a bat, you will probably break most of its ribs and send it to the floor. If you hit a bear with a bat, it will get pissed off and decapitate you without blinking.

4. His firebreath should have no after lag. That way if you cannot DI out of it, it will drag you toward Bowser who could then immediately perform an attack. Remember his attacks will still be fairly slow, so this is not broken as people might think.

If I truly believed what you said about tiers and how speedy characters will always beat a slow character, I wouldn't by Brawl. I'm serious. But, there is more to the game than just speed and strength and stuff like that. There should be tactics (not talking about mindgames, really). Just like it said in that Bowser quote...some other suggestions were like Bowser shouldn't be able to be grabbed and stuff like that. There should be more to the game than that, and I think that is what Sakurai is trying to do.

Oh, and for your sake on the "Fox is always top tier stuff," read the quote from the Bowser update...

"To be honest, there are a LOT of characters that offer a slightly different flavor this time around. If you think they’re all going to be the same as they have been, it’ll be rough for you."​

That says it all.

 

[Toomai]

Can we shut up about tiers and discuss Final Smashes like the topic's designed for? K thnx.

Now, about Giga Bowser...According to the screens, he's pretty stinkin' huge (obviously). It looks like he's way too big to fit in some places (possible example: that tunnel in Hyrule Temple). So what would happen if Bowser transformed in such a small space? (You can expect CPUs to do such a thing.) And being so big, will he even be able to stand on some platforms? (I expect GB to be unable to stand on "soft" platforms.)

 

[MirageofMadness]

Good point, Toomai. GB could be trocky to maneouver on some stages. It would suck, then if you are bowser, and you have to actually AVOID the Final Smash so as not to find yourself stuck somehow on the stage.

 

[WFL]

Well, the whole idea of tiers is that, one will always have a higher potential than the other.

The tier list is a measure of how characters stack up in tournament play according to the current metagame.

So, no, character potential has nothing to do with the list, at least in the sense that you are trying to predict how a character will evolve to be played a year from now.

The list is just a current representation of how things play out on the tournament scene as a result of the metagame. Falco's game has been evolving over the last year and as a result we have seen Falco shoot up a few notches. Fox's game has undergone that same evolution. Meanwhile very little has been added to Sheik's metagame. Chu Dat started a revolution with Ice Climbers, but it was slow to catch on, which is why the previous list has the Ice Climbers lower than this new list. The new list actually takes into account that other people are playing the Ice Climbers, not just Chu Dat (meep, azn lep, among a few others).

This list is the RESULT of tournament play. Keep that in mind. Many people seem to be saying that this list will influence people, while it is really the opposite way around, the list is influenced by the competitive community. On the noncompetitve newby level the tier list may seem to be counter to logic or just a popularity contest, but it really isn't. Certain characters are played more frequently than other characters because they have more going for them.

Tier list isn't based on character potential, just on tournament outcomes.

 

[_the_sandman_]

We've partially seen Kirby's Final Smash. I'd say his would be the best. Not only is it entertaining, but if its the same attack from his game not only will he damage his foes but he'll gain health once he turns them into food!

Think of all of the cooking possibilites! Cooking Snake, Zero Samus, Bowser, Ness, etc. I can't wait to see everyone's expressions when they're being cooked!

 

[Dacvak]

Here's the thing: Has anyone actually tried playing as Giga Bowser in Melee? If you use an action replay, you can actually control him as a character. Not to say that Giga Bowser in Brawl will be anything like the one in Melee, but if he is, then this Final Smash might not be as good as people think.

Although, it's kind of interesting; the thing about him being invincible. If you can't damage/stun GB, then it might turn things around. The one thing that could really cripple this Final Smash is speed. If GB isn't fast, he'll be useless. Most characters will be able to escape him, I think. Plus, it sounds like you'll only be able to use GB for about 15 seconds or so. =/

Here's a cool thought, though. Do you think Bowser's smash icons at the bottom screen will change when he transforms into Giga Bowser?

~Dac

 

[the grim lizard]

Now, about Giga Bowser...According to the screens, he's pretty stinkin' huge (obviously). It looks like he's way too big to fit in some places (possible example: that tunnel in Hyrule Temple). So what would happen if Bowser transformed in such a small space? (You can expect CPUs to do such a thing.) And being so big, will he even be able to stand on some platforms? (I expect GB to be unable to stand on "soft" platforms.)

Good point, Toomai. GB could be trocky to maneouver on some stages. It would suck, then if you are bowser, and you have to actually AVOID the Final Smash so as not to find yourself stuck somehow on the stage.

It's my impression that you can hold onto the Smash ball until you wish to use it (as it says in Mario's update that you should get to a medium height before you use this; you wouldn't be able to do this if its effects come immediately). So, it would be your own fault if you got stuck in a tight spot. Tough luck.

Besides, we really don't know if there will even be any stages like that.

Tier list isn't based on character potential, just on tournament outcomes.

"Certain characters are played more frequently than other characters because they have more going for them." <--This is basically what I said.

Here's the thing: Has anyone actually tried playing as Giga Bowser in Melee? If you use an action replay, you can actually control him as a character. Not to say that Giga Bowser in Brawl will be anything like the one in Melee, but if he is, then this Final Smash might not be as good as people think.

The only problem with being Gigabowser, if you played him, was that you were such a huge targe. People could easily hit you (like the whole Jiggly rest thing). But, since you will be invincible, there's no issues...probably why they did it. If you HAD ever been GB, you know that his moves are incredibly overpowered and the hitbox is like half the stage.

 

[Dacvak]

If you HAD ever been GB, you know that his moves are incredibly overpowered and the hitbox is like half the stage.

Hahaha, good point. But think about the big stages. What if Hyrule is in this game? Even on Final D, I doubt Giga Bowser will be that effective. Now, on a small stage, like Battlefield, he'll obviously have a strong advantage. But let's talk Hyrule, here. Do you really think that Giga Bowser would be able to even hit anyone? What's nice about Mario's, is it's probably going to hit at least one person no matter what stage you're on.

But here's another topic for discussion:
What's more effective? Final Smashes that you are able to control, or Final Smashes that stay the same each time you use them?

Mario/Link vs. Bowser/Pikachu

~Dac

 

[the grim lizard]

Hahaha, good point. But think about the big stages. What if Hyrule is in this game? Even on Final D, I doubt Giga Bowser will be that effective. Now, on a small stage, like Battlefield, he'll obviously have a strong advantage. But let's talk Hyrule, here. Do you really think that Giga Bowser would be able to even hit anyone? What's nice about Mario's, is it's probably going to hit at least one person no matter what stage you're on.

But here's another topic for discussion:
What's more effective? Final Smashes that you are able to control, or Final Smashes that stay the same each time you use them?

Mario/Link vs. Bowser/Pikachu

~Dac

Well, going back to what I said about delaying the activation of the FS...You could get the item chase someone down, and THEN use it. That way, you'd already have them in range to attack them.

 

[Fawriel]

Controllable FS = win

So many more tactical possibilities and probably more potential for a skilled user.

Also, can't Giga Bowser dash?
Being that large, his dash should, according to all laws of logic, be quite fast...
If you're escaping from Gozilla, it doesn't matter whether you're running and Godzilla's not, since one step takes it about 30 meters further.

Incidently, I can't wait for Luigi's Final Smash. *shiny eyes*

 

[the grim lizard]

Incidently, I can't wait for Luigi's Final Smash. *shiny eyes*

Captain Falcon's FS FTW!!

 

[Doggalina]

Here's the thing: Has anyone actually tried playing as Giga Bowser in Melee? If you use an action replay, you can actually control him as a character. Not to say that Giga Bowser in Brawl will be anything like the one in Melee, but if he is, then this Final Smash might not be as good as people think.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7IusuaM0Bi0

He doesn't look like crap there

 

[Fawriel]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7IusuaM0Bi0

He doesn't look like crap there

Ahahahahaha.

Wow.

I wanna see Gimpy take on Ken or someone with Giga Bowser.

 

[The_Famous_SK]

You guys are on crack if youthink using a Final Smash will slow the gameplay down at all. It was zoomed in on in the trailers. You don't think Mario and Pikachu are gonna get new higher-res skins everytime a match loads up, do you? Or Fox is gonna stand all alone on Lylat Cruise? Or every time Meta-Knight uses his invisi-cape it's gonna zoom in on him?

Don't be stupid. They'll work like PokeBalls or the Hammer or the Superscope or what-have-you.

 

[Toomai]

User-controlled Final Smashes will probably be more effective in terms of hitting people (less predictability). But auto-aim Final Smashes may be tuned to do more damage anyway.

 

[_Phloat_]

I think that the auto hits will be weaker just to make it more of a skill base..

Also, the auto aim ones have times when they are stronger and weaker, like sakurai said that mario should be in a floating position, and that farther away would be better...

 

[komickid]

Giga Bowser looks fun!! Plus if he's invincible then... heh heh

 

[red stone]

i bet a fox could easily shine a final smash bowser off the stage

 

[the grim lizard]

i bet a fox could easily shine a final smash bowser off the stage

That would be impressive, considering he's invincible.

 

[bluebomber22]

That would be impressive, considering he's invincible.

hahahahahahahah lmao. imagine if you had a giga bowser and a groudon. i would not want to be on that stage, there'd beno room left!

 

[TaurToph]

If giga bowser really eats hits (aka no knockback), then 2 giga bowsers would be GROSS!
Boxing for brawl :D

 

[blake101101]

I wanna see zelda's final smash

 

[BigRick]

I wanna see zelda's final smash

so obvious... she morphs into SHIEK

 

[Cubelarooso]

Question: Will Giga-Boozer keep the palette you chose, or will all Giga-Boozers be the same color?

 

[abby ratso]

err.

Question: Will Giga-Boozer keep the palette you chose, or will all Giga-Boozers be the same color?

You know that this will only matter if 2 bowsers are fighting eachother, and 2 smashballs appear at the same time... And I highly doubt that will happen often.

 

[Drik Khaail]

You know that this will only matter if 2 bowsers are fighting eachother, and 2 smashballs appear at the same time... And I highly doubt that will happen often.

but it may happen... I think a black giga bowser would be efing sweet, maybe that could work for all the bacons, black marios flames turn black, pikachus volt tackle could be blue, et cetera, et cetera...

 

[Toomai]

Volt Tackle's already blue. But the others...eh, not so good. Sure, a colourful Giga Bowser would show attention to detail, and would really help when the inevitable happens (hackers let you play with infinite Final Smashes), but it isn't really neccessary.

 

[Cubelarooso]

What if they keep team color for some reason? And the fact it'd be weird to change from red to green during the transformation.

 

[Aeramis]

Link's final smash looks like it will be more deadly and better for 1v1s then the others from what I seen.

 

[petre]

so guys, i was just thinking, 'hah, giga bowser looks awesome, but huge. pikas volt tackle could deal some serious damage to that huge target.' then i remembered it said he's invincible.

but anyway, onto my point. do you think its going to be possible to have more than one final smash occouring at once? or do you think that once someone grabs the smash item, another one won't appear until that person has used it? that could actually lead to a bit of strategy in deciding when to use it.

EDIT: and also, do you think its going to be possible to hit pikachu out of his final smash? or will he be invincible too?

...in fact are all the characters going to be invincible during their FSes???

 

[Toomai]

It would be pretty unfair to be able to knock someone out of a Final Smash. But it'd also be unfair to have some of them completely invincible. Like Mario's, poke him in the back to deal no damage?

I'd say that you could be hit during a Final Smash, but get the damage with no knockback. That way your Final Smash won't be interrupted, but you may be in a pickle once you're done with it.

Heh, that's a problem for Bowser. If he racks up tons of damage and then reverts, he'll just fly away.

 

[GreenKirby]

Does anyone else thinks that Cpt. Falcon's Falcon Punch from the F-Zero anime (the one where it lights the freaking galaxy and its immense power cause Falcon to die) would be his B.A.C.O.N.?

I can see it now. Falcon uses the uber Falcon Punch. Everyone is KO'ed by it and Falcon has 999% damage

 

[bloodhunter]

Not sure if this was pointed out yet, (I'm not going to read all 20 pages) a lot of people seem to think Mario's final smash has massive range, but according to the website that doesn't seem to be the case.

"The explosion launches out and expands vertically as it travels, so in order to inflict the most damage possible on enemies, it's best to release this from a slight floating or midair position on either the left or right side of the screen."

Just sounded like a lot of people were overestimating its range.

 

[Toomai]

Mario's Final Smash seems to expand in a cone shape, according to the first trailer. So it can only expand one way by also expanding the other way.

 

[petre]

allright, who else noticed that pikas final smash activated during gameplay...it didnt go into a cutscene!!!

 

[Toomai]

Yeah. But if i'm not mistaken, it did zoom in a little. We'll have to wait until the recording is avaliable to check it.

 

[soaz]

Pikas FS is faster then i thought it would be.