Final Fantasy Tactics Mafia: Game finally over! Raziek lynched, Town wins! Lego too!

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

All of the posts between when I said that and took the shot RR

What changed it for you?

 

[Kantrip]

Yup, you can keep T-Block's spot as number 2 on my scum list.

Also, I just happened onto the coup de grâce of my Nich post. Look for it under the P.S.

Done with reread one. Starting reread two.

Cool, so now you're going to tell me why.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

The argument between Ryker and Nich. The only thing that happened during that time.

RR this isn't rocket science.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ok, then why was he a town read before the argument?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Cool, so now you're going to tell me why.

Really? What gave you that impression? I'm going to sit here and let you think I don't have Auto-Potion and then I'm going to decide whether or not to lynch you tomorrow after Nich is dead.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Because that's the feel I got before then.

RR I really don't think you're grasping a key component here and I'm not going to explain it to you.

 

[Kantrip]

Really? What gave you that impression? I'm going to sit here and let you think I don't have Auto-Potion and then I'm going to decide whether or not to lynch you tomorrow after Nich is dead.

So you're still holding onto that, then?

Well I thought you didn't have it because I just couldn't see anyone claiming something like that right off the bat like you did. It's the kind of thing you would say to stir discussion. I've seen you fake plenty of claims before.

You're not answering me, though. I'm very curious what you could have gotten out of my post, and I'll tell you why after you respond to me.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

And I really don't give a ****, so don't expect a response.

 

[Kantrip]

You're a **** Ryker. I hope you know that.

But I do find it funny you got something conclusive from something I jotted down at the BEGINNING of this game, long LONG before I replaced in. I made a QT that I was going to keep updated in with notes for this game, but then I gave up and assumed I wouldn't be replacing in anyways so I just stopped it just over a page in (40ppp).

Not sure if I'm allowed to post it here though. If I can then I can prove to you that the stuff in my post was all written by me like a week ago.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Then you're ******** and scum.

In other news, I just finished my second read through. After I finish my third, I'll be done with my first of five major points. I've decided to post each major point separately. Deal still holds.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You're a **** Ryker. I hope you know that.

But I do find it funny you got something conclusive from something I jotted down at the BEGINNING of this game, long LONG before I replaced in. I made a QT that I was going to keep updated in with notes for this game, but then I gave up and assumed I wouldn't be replacing in anyways so I just stopped it just over a page in (40ppp).

Not sure if I'm allowed to post it here though. If I can then I can prove to you that the stuff in my post was all written by me like a week ago.

This would all be null anyways.

 

[Kantrip]

That's the idea...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Then why even consider posting notes from before you even got your role PM?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

So Nich, I have a challenge for you. I'm about to codify my case in plain terms in the most accessible manner possible. I'm going to detail all of my issues with your play thus far. If you're right and I'm scum who's been taking your posts out of context and misconstruing you in a bad light, then it should show out when I'm forced to put it all out there. Therefore my challenge for you is to let others examine it and figure out how they feel about it without your spin. If you're telling the truth and are really as hot **** as you think you are, they'll come to your aid and I'll be in hot water for my terrible case.

This is going to be the full monty. I'm going to bring EVERYTHING and this is the definitive end all, be all. No johns about lack of context here.

Deal? Or do you have no faith?

Challenge stands, Nich. I want an answer and a reason if you say no.

 

[Kantrip]

Then why even consider posting notes from before you even got your role PM?

Why bother posting anything ever?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Alright. So this case is going to be summed up in five major points: Nich's avoidance of issues that may cause him to be read as scum, his limitless well of AtE and ad hominen used for manipulative purposes, his repeated doubling back on his intention with regard to his initial Nickelback push, his obnoxiously scummy voting pattern, and the way he attempted to use self-meta to set himself up in a position to freely act in an anti-town manner. I'm going to attempt to put it in black and white the reasons why Nich is scum. This will mean slicing through his WIFOM to reach his intentions. Without further ado, let's go to point one.

Dodging A Bullet:

As the image suggests, Nich has spent this game bending over backwards to avoid answering for uncomfortable issues. Here's a few examples:

[collapse=Gheb vs. Nich]

Dodge harder, please? My point was that he's obviously insecure about posting his thoughts when you **** in his face left and right for whatever he's saying ... that point wasn't that hard to understand but you're not responding to it.

I know you think he's not scumhunting [not even accounting for the fact that other people aren't scumhunting either] but THAT DOESN'T JUSTIFY WHAT YOU'RE DOING AT ALL. All you do is continuing to scare him away from posting his thoughts ... which - conveniently - allows you to continue your argument that he's not hunting scum.

Then again, what you do can hardly be considered "scumhunting" either.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and just assume that he has sub-par intelligence and misunderstood, but here Gheb comes out and corrects him. This is Nich's response:

@Gheb
Well, for starters, there's you. I don't like your interactions with Nickel any more than you like mine.

1. You're obviously trying to get me to stop pressuring him because you think he'll react badly to said pressure. What's your reasoning that he's town? Let's take a look.

Dodge harder, please? My point was that he's obviously insecure about posting his thoughts when you **** in his face left and right for whatever he's saying ... that point wasn't that hard to understand but you're not responding to it.

You claim that he's a newbie scared to post his thoughts... something I have NEVER seen from newbie town, although it's not exactly uncommon in newbie SCUM (and Raziek even linked us to some post game commentary revealing that he sheeps and agrees with people as scum). And then there's the classic

I know you think he's not scumhunting [not even accounting for the fact that other people aren't scumhunting either] but THAT DOESN'T JUSTIFY WHAT YOU'RE DOING AT ALL. All you do is continuing to scare him away from posting his thoughts ... which - conveniently - allows you to continue your argument that he's not hunting scum.

"Nobody else is scumhunting either, so you can't single him out!" That is not good reasoning. I'm not claiming my case is some bulletproof masterpiece, it's not. However, "He might not be scum hunting, but you shouldn't care" is not a defense.

2. After that little display, we have your attack on me. What don't you like me for? That I'm tunneling Nickel. Because I obviously never, EVER tunnel as town, and even if I did, it's just so OBVIOUS that I'm dead set on Nickel being scum so early and there's just NO CHANCE I might be gauging other player's reactions as well. (Hint: The previous sentence was heavily sarcastic.) I know (alright, after Megaman X, I'm 90% sure) that you're not that stupid, Gheb. Even if my case was completely worthless, it's produced some nice reactions from you guys that I can follow up on, and that's what I was hoping for from the start.

Unvote.
Vote: Gheb


@Ryker
There's not much to say to "He's a scared kid, and you should quit pressuring him because he's panicking!". If you want, you can go dig up a face palm picture and consider that my official response.

I'll be coming back to this post a LOT over the course of this case, but for now, let's look specifically here:

Ugh, Ryker, please be less dumb or scum. You're taking bits and pieces out of a series of replies that you can twist and take out of context, and then pretending that's my entire argument.

Anyway, I'm going to address this once and for all.

The case against me:

1: That my push on Nickel was bad.
2: That my push on Gheb was bad.
3: That I haven't done anything aside from 1 and 2.

Here's the answers to those.

A1: The push was JUST OUT OF RVS, people. It's primary purpose was to generate content, both from Nickel, and hopefully other people commenting. It did what it was designed to do, and you'll notice I haven't been pursuing it since. As far as me being "selective" in picking Nickel, I've given my reasoning (he said a couple odd things that stuck out at me, and then continued posting without content).

A2: We've walled back and forth over this one. In short, Gheb's defense of Nickel/attack on me felt fake.

A3: If you haven't noticed, the case on me is kinda dominating the discussion right now. I have talked about other things, but my case and the people on it are the major point for today. And I find it hilariously hypocritical that I'm being called out on self-preservation from the guy who led a lynch on someone HE DIDN'T EVEN FIND SCUMMY to save his own neck in Megaman X mafia.

More detailed responses shortly, but for those who don't feel like wading through Ryker's crap, consider this the TLDR.

See that promise at the bottom? He NEVER gets to that more detailed response. And as you can see in comparing them, he ignores MULTIPLE POSTS and lumps them all together in this reply.

Here's my answer:

Vote me, come on. Seal your fate with a third terrible push.

I don't care about your series of replies. I'm not the one who needed to deal with them. I did, however, look at everything you've posted in this game and pulled out the pieces that make your alignment evident.

In order to call strawman like you're attempting to do, you're going to have to dig through and find examples and SHOW how I'm taking it out of context and causing you to look worse for it.

Here's a hint, all I did was highlight the problems with your play, so you won't be finding jack ****.

This is the first of MULTIPLE TIMES THAT I CHALLENGE HIM TO SHOW THE STRAWMAN! He never shows where I take things out of context.

I would quote his #307, but his liberal use of quotes would neuter it.

My response is in the next post and it's the Yankee Doodle parody that he VEHEMENTLY DENIES HAS ANY SEED OF A POINT TO IT! He refuses to expand on it, but let's break it down seeing as it is a reply to 307.

Point 1.) Dodging the point with regards to Gheb which is outlined in the first collapse box.

Point 2.) Shows that the three unique points that he summarized in his #307 were lumped together and discarded without being responded to.

Point 3.) I call his bluff saying he's been a major contributor to scum hunting. He does nothing to address it and that was a painfully obvious call-out that he ignored.

Point 4.) I point out how he goes back and forth on his original intention with the push on Orbo as it serves his interests.

Point 5.) Even the chorus points something out. EVERYTHING he puts out there is spun to hell and he drops WIFOM everywhere between his AtE, his insults, and his self-meta. It's disgusting.

This is his response to calling him on his OMGUS.

Protip: Making a bad case may or may not be scummy. Agreeing with a bad case usually is scummy. Doing that plus making your own case exclusively by taking points out of context, dodging arguments, and adding plenty of fluff is always scummy.

Good thing I didn't do that. Show me where I've done it.

Here I, yet again, challenge him to point out where I've been strawmanning him.

Here you go, Ryker. The big long reply you pressed me for, then dismissed with your little song.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14060823&postcount=307

Here again he changes the subject and doesn't do as I requested.
[/collapse]

[collapse=Legolas vs. Nich]Here's Lego's #329 where he expresses his issue with Nich.

Here is Nich's response:

Someone's awfully defensive. I wasn't saying Gheb's logic was the only possibility, but it is a valid possibility, and you haven't shown enough scum hunting on your own to prove that you're not just being a sheep. It's also possible you have been scum hunting, just not proven. So tell me, why are you so worried and defensive because of such a simple statement?

That's right. NO RESPONSE TO ACCUSATIONS WHATSOEVER! Just proceeds to threaten anyone who takes issue with him.

Here's Lego's #331 and the following posts. Go ahead and read for yourself. Nich proceeds to continue the conversation, but never covers the accusations.

He ends it by saying "Right..." and changing the subject to Sworddancer's catch-up post.[/collapse]

Over and over and over he avoids the issues that might cause him trouble. He's been doing it the entire game and attacking ANYONE who has expressed an issue with him. There are also small areas where he's on Gova in similar fashion, but I'm not rereading a fourth time for this point.

This point alone should be enough to get him lynched, but I've got four more coming.

Nich, you're going to look like Hiroshima in September of 1945 by the time I'm done with you.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Posting proof that you wrote it earlier means nothing, the moment you admit it, all ways to analyze it as town or scum is thrown out the window because you did it with no alignment before the replace in.

You did it with innocence which is why anything from before you replaced in is technically not useful for looking at your play in that slot.

 

[Kantrip]

That's my point Red Ryu: That Ryker getting anything conclusive from my post is illegitimate.

Besides, I don't care if my notes provide a read on me or not.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm pretty sure town cares if they can.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Kantrip/RR analyze #456. Bicker about Kantrip's IQ later.

 

[Kantrip]

Is Nich a noob? How much experience does he have?

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

I believe a glance at his postbit will clarify that for you Kantrip.

Round 1 to Ryker. Long *** read but the quotes back up the claim that Nich hasn't really addressed points brought up against him.

Nich, prove me wrong. Maybe I misread (but oh god please don't make your post as long as Rykers)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Tomorrow morning sure.

 

[Kantrip]

On mobile but I know what you're referring to.

In that case there is no excuse for things Ryker is accusing him of. If those conversations are in the context I'm reading them in then Nich is getting the **** end of all of them.

Actually looking forward to Ryker having like five of these. The first one on its own could be bad town but apparently Nich doesn't fall under that category?

Anyways yeah I'm tired

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

WIFOM and Nich:

Our good buddy Nich likes WIFOM. He really can't get enough of the stuff. He's constantly using it to affect how he's perceived. Here's what we're going to do. I'm going to read through the game and point out everywhere that Nich uses WIFOM for a manipulative purpose. It will be categorized into another three kinds with the third to be elaborated on in a later point.




Nich like's to use two forms of WIFOM, primarily. AtE is the first. He likes to put out these little calls for help that let him be perceived in a town light without actually doing anything to deserve it.

[collapse=AtE]

And everyone I've asked to explain their reasoning for voting me (except Gheb) has ignored/refused to answer at least once. Perhaps I should've given you a little more time before pressing, but this is getting really annoying, I can't defend myself against "Oh yeah, he's scummy", and there's not much point to making another long answer to Gheb that you guys probably won't read (I think I made the last post in that anyway, actually). I'm pretty confident that there's one (perhaps more) scum on my wagon, but this game is seriously looking like a repeat of Fire Emblem here.

Anyway, I wasn't hinting at anything wrt Nickel. I wanted to get a read on you via your response, since it would likely illuminate your thought process for me, since you've focused a fair bit on Nickel. But of course nobody's willing to give me the time of day this game, which makes it kind of hard to get meaningful questions answered.

@Evil Eye, Vanderzant, J, anyone else competent
Namesearch this and replace in please. The incompetence levels of this town are rapidly approaching 9000.

Throughout this post he's throwing out soft little, "Oh poor me"s. It's disgusting. Then his little namesearch bait is enough to make me want to vomit.

In case that was a vigilante shot, I'd better give my final thoughts.

Gheb I no longer see as my #1 target, but I still think he's rather scummy. I've gone over the specifics before, but I do think interactions not related to me, T-block, or Nickel feel somewhat townie. On the other hand, his actions w.r.t. me/T-block feel very bad. For instance, after (rightfully) calling out Ryker for using the "He agrees with me so he's town" logic, he then claims Glyph is confirmed town for voting T-block.

Ryker would be my number 1 lynch choice at the moment, and there's a few simple reasons why.

1. It's far scummier to agree with a bad case than it is to make a bad case. Basically, whenever a bad wagon progresses, scum is almost always involved, and they usually join in the middle to avoid heat. Ryker fits this profile so far, as he was the third person to go after me, which is his main contribution to this game (aside from a few shots at T-block later on when he became a fashionable target).

2. When Gheb argued with me, he'd address my entire argument and keep things in context, even if I felt his answers were bad. Ryker on the other hand started by taking half a dozen quotes, stripping the context, picking out the bits he felt were easiest to twist, and then calling it a case. You can see my first big reply to him for more details on that. Also, his little song looks impressive at first glance, but in reality the only content there is roughly three lines of name calling without explaining how the accusations apply. In short, he's using a very dishonest style of argument to show a highly distorted version of my play instead of the whole picture.

3. If Gheb's mistaken town, then he can still be useful later on, although his recent play hasn't been stellar, I trust he's still capable of reevaluating things and making coherent arguments. What's Ryker going to do aside from act high and mighty while tossing around insults?

Anyway, some other things that stick out at me...

Nickel's flying under the radar. His reads post was very minimal details-wise, and I think there's a good chance he's scum. He'd be better vigilante fodder than lynch material, but don't let him slip through unnoticed.

Similarly, keep an eye on Inferno and Lego. I can't recall either of them having taken an unpopular stance, and they doesn't seem to push much on their own. Nothing concrete here, but I don't trust either.

Assuming Glyph's telling the truth, I suppose he's near confirmed. If he's faking the shot, then I applaud him for the play, give him a lot more credit for intelligence, and still think he's townie.

Might have more, but I want to make sure I get this out there in time.

Here we go. The meat of his AtE, the Dayvig claim. Keep in mind that he claims to have thought it was fake the entire time.

Look at him playing to Glyph's ego. He's applauding the play that involved shooting him in the head. Sure, Nich, sure.

On second thought, looks like I've covered most of the active players. I don't have strong feelings one way or the other on Raziek, and T-block I think is townie, don't understand the heat on him.

Gova, Seph, Red Ryu, and Rajam need to post more. Just saying.

Anyway, please don't let Ryker direct this game. If he goes tomorrow "Oh, Nich was town but I'm justified, let's kill T-block", and then repeats it on D3 with a new target after a T-block town flip, I'm going to get punch you guys through the internet.

I'm not going to bother to claim, since knowing my role won't help town any if I can't actually use it, and if I'm not actually dead then there's no point claiming.

There's some more. Pleading that I not be listened to.

So, that's pretty much everything. It was... kinda fun, kinda frustrating playing with you guys. For the record, I was telling the truth about going after Nickel to generate discussion. I have no idea how on earth Ryker can pretend otherwise (well, I do, because he's an idiot, but I have no idea why other people believe him). As for my own play... well, I have no problems with what I did pre-Gheb, and I feel like my post-Gheb play was pretty solid as well. The case on Gheb itself... well, it wasn't my best play, but I don't think it was my worst either. I seriously need to go a bit slower and build up some more material before I attack in full force, because it feels like I ended up undermining my own credibility somewhat there.

@T-block
Could you make sure my reads aren't forgotten for tomorrow, please? Thanks.

@Ryker
You're an idiot, and hopefully my flip will finally prove that to the rest of town.

@Everyone not named Ryker
Seriously, go back to the people on my wagon, and examine their reasons very closely. It's almost always the case that a bad wagon on a townie contains at least one mafia, and I doubt that this is an exception. (If you doubt that, consider that 3 mafia + people after me = easy lynch.)

@EE
Once I get confirmation that I am dead, would you mind giving me some critique about my play in AIM?

This entire post is one giant AtE. He's trying to play the part of the slain townie for the free brownie points. Even the insults aimed at me are made for the benefit of everyone else so that they will look back and see "how badly Ryker played."

@Glyph
Heh. Honestly, I'm not terribly upset with dying. Ryker and co were getting incredibly annoying, and this town on the whole looks to be weaker than Fire Emblem, so I was legitimately worried about arguing out of the lynch, weak though the case against me was. (And at least being daykilled as opposed to lynch keeps alive my streak of never being lynched as town. )

But yeah, assuming the shot is for real for a second, I have a couple pointers for you.

1. You really should have asked me to claim. My role isn't that strong as it turns out, but what if I'd been the town watcher or something?

2. You should have saved the shot in any case. Seriously, why use it on someone who stands a good chance of being lynched anyway, especially when it's basically a replacement for the lynch?

Read above post. Aiming hard to be seen as the townie who died a valiant death.

lol Glyph.

Honestly, I suspect the whole thing is in fact fake, I don't think you're stupid enough to actually pull this on me out of the blue, especially considering you had me as frustrated town earlier. (That's a contributing factor as to why I'm not terribly furious right now. If Ryker had done what you just did, I'd be a lot more upset, between the double frustration of him somehow being town and JUST THAT DUMB. I'd probably still be posting my reads, but there'd be much more yelling involved about how utterly stupid he is.)

However, on the off chance the shot is in fact real, I figured I should get my thoughts out there quickly.

Also, those posts weren't the best for self preservation. There's a few lines Ryker's probably rubbing his hands at the idea of using for ammo against me. For instance, I'm sure he'd act as if my calling him out as my #1 scum tell was just OMGUS, and he'd love to pretend that my noting that part of Gheb's play seems townie and that he's now a secondary scum read is "another example of backtracking".

Do I want to survive? To put it bluntly, yes I do, since I'm the only person that I 100% know is town, and there are very few players in this game that I trust to be competent. With that in mind, I'm going to fight my own lynch for all I'm worth, unless it serves a very clear purpose for town. (However, I will NOT pull a Megaman X-Ryker and push lynches on townies just to keep myself alive. Playing to your survival is only a good idea if you're helping town in the process.) At any rate, throwing a fit in what might be my final words isn't going to do anybody any good, and I had some things I hadn't said that needed to be put out there.

And here's the admission. He admits that he didn't think the shot was real which means all those posts he put up before were an act put on to present himself in a certain light. There's some legitimate ad hominen in this post, but I'm not going to link it again in the second box.

Anyway Ryker, if you're so sure of yourself, let's make a deal. If T-block flips scum (or myself I guess, but that's moot because I know I'm town), I'll quit maintaining that you're a horrible player and admit you have some scum hunting skill. However, if we both flip town, you can drop your "I'm the best ever" mentality and admit that my play in the past few games has outshines yours. Deal?

This piece of ****. Oh my God. His only motive in posting this is to have town believe that he knows his alignment so he's perfectly willing to make a bet like this.

Also note that this bet he made doesn't take into account the possibility that I could be scum.

@Gheb
Will you look at Ryker in depth upon my town flip? Hoping the other part of the vig combo decides not to shoot and I can press his case in person, but I kinda doubt it.

Take an acting class.

I'll do what I have to to get my reads heard and acted on. I notice that you conveniently avoided any comments on my case, considering I won't be around to push it much longer, and other people aren't likely to push it for me.

And here is the ADMISSION that he's acting.


[/collapse]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is the second form of WIFOM commonly used by Nich. It's a subset of AtE, but I felt it deserved it's own section and you won't find these posts in the first collapse box. Nich loves to use Ad Homenin to try and discredit those who call attention to the problems in his play.

[collapse=Ad Homenin]

What I meant is that scared to the point you're describing is just completely and hilariously unlikely. You never answered my point on that, just what kind of pressure prevents a townie from giving reads when doing that would stop the pressure?!?



Psst, Gheb. You know what people often do in RVS? They focus on small stuff and pretend it's significant to get discussion going, and then base some reads off of said discussion. What part of you can't accept that that just MIGHT be a feasible explanation for what I was doing?!?

And I'm attacking you because your defense of Nickel (That he's scared and because the pressure is you know, PRESSURING him that I should stop doing it and there's other people that aren't scum-hunting so it's not fair to pick on him) is absolute garbage, and your attack on me doesn't make sense either. You claim to be so worried about Nickel being scared and frightened out of giving reads... why haven't you talked to him directly, given him some advice and boosted his confidence instead of just yelling at me? One would think that that would take care of the problem far more effectively. No, this strikes me as the actions of someone who knows Nickel's alignment, and is either trying to protect their scum buddy, or set me up to look bad when he gets mislynched.

And you called me out on pushing really hard on small stuff. That's usually what people mean when they accuse me of tunneling. Also, I don't tunnel blindly any more. Say what you will about my play style, but recently I've been getting results. I've made mistakes (going after T-block in time travelers), but I've refocused and caught scum. If you want to compare play quality, recently I've gotten the upper hand.

TLDR:
(Seriously guys, this isn't that long, and I would appreciate it if you'd read all of my posts. But for the Rykers out there...)

1. Gheb claims Nickel is scared and that pressuring him for reads will somehow prevent him from giving reads. This has no thread of logic to it at all.

2. Instead of reassuring Nickel and giving him some advice, which would be the logical solution to a lack of confidence, Gheb instead decides to attack me and insult me for pushing him. Now keep in mind that Gheb knows my meta. Just how often does an attack + insults actually change my mind on an issue? Usually it just makes me more determined.

3. Considering that my push started in semi-RVS, and wasn't even a hard push (by my standards anyway), as well as all the discussion it generated (which I knew from the outset would happen), believing I'm scum for said push doesn't make much sense, particularly when that is something I do as town pretty frequently.

4. Therefore, I conclude that Gheb's actions weren't because he was honestly worried about Nickel-town reacting badly OR because he really thinks I'm scum. No, I'm sure he knows Nickel's alignment. Whether he's trying to save a scum buddy or look good while destroying my credibility in the event of a mislynch, I'm not sure. But I've tried the possible townie motivations, and none of them fit.

@Inferno
Thanks for the info, by the way. In my early play it was the opposite, although I was pretty outspoken as newbie town, I was fairly timid as scum and tried to avoid the spotlight as much as possible (and that is what I generally see. Not that town can't be pressured, but getting the kind of pressure Gheb's suggesting out of two votes on a townie just doesn't happen.) Care to give your opinion on Gheb?

There's sample one. All three of the bolded sections contain Ad Homenin. This isn't the first appearence, but it's the easiest to nail down so far. Most of it is simply the air he puts on.

Postgame I will need someone to explain to me why we don't start every game with a policy lynch on Ryker.

Anyway, you might want to explain your scum read on me considering you're trying to lynch me, unless you don't actually have any reasoning to call your own (which I did suspect, but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt).

All this post does is attempt to undermine me with insults.

What was I supposed to do, ignore Gheb's accusations? I'm not Ryker. What part of my response seemed bad to you?

Considering Rajam's an easy target (and disliked by a good number of people), and half the playerlist wants me dead, would you agree that your pushes this game have been opportunistic?

Simple pot shot. Becomes a recurring theme.

So are you going to actually answer my question, or are you pulling a Ryker on me? If the latter, what does town gain by hiding your thoughts here?

Also, if I were to die, then the incompetence levels would cause an over 9000 joke. And that's just terrible.

See what I mean?

If that were to happen, I'd reevaluate the game and see where I went wrong. But let's just say that neither the track records or reasoning of the players questioning me are good enough to make me doubt my stances.

Again.

Ugh, Ryker, please be less dumb or scum. You're taking bits and pieces out of a series of replies that you can twist and take out of context, and then pretending that's my entire argument.

Anyway, I'm going to address this once and for all.

The case against me:

1: That my push on Nickel was bad.
2: That my push on Gheb was bad.
3: That I haven't done anything aside from 1 and 2.

Here's the answers to those.

A1: The push was JUST OUT OF RVS, people. It's primary purpose was to generate content, both from Nickel, and hopefully other people commenting. It did what it was designed to do, and you'll notice I haven't been pursuing it since. As far as me being "selective" in picking Nickel, I've given my reasoning (he said a couple odd things that stuck out at me, and then continued posting without content).

A2: We've walled back and forth over this one. In short, Gheb's defense of Nickel/attack on me felt fake.

A3: If you haven't noticed, the case on me is kinda dominating the discussion right now. I have talked about other things, but my case and the people on it are the major point for today. And I find it hilariously hypocritical that I'm being called out on self-preservation from the guy who led a lynch on someone HE DIDN'T EVEN FIND SCUMMY to save his own neck in Megaman X mafia.

More detailed responses shortly, but for those who don't feel like wading through Ryker's crap, consider this the TLDR.

This is the post where he ignored about 4-5 points. I guess he thinks some good ole fashion ad hominen will make up for it.

I'm seriously thinking about it, Ryker. The problem is that I know you play this terribly as town, so it's hard to tell whether you're scum, an idiot, or both.

Don't even have to bold anything in this one.

Alright, let's remove all the fluff and insults and see what Ryker has to say.



In short, maybe 20% of this reply is actually relevant, the rest of it is just complete fluff. And notice that parts that are relevant aren't actually substantiated. In short, this is just Ryker going "You liar, you point dodger, you straw manner, die." I've completely lost respect for anyone who can treat this as a legitimate reply.

@Gheb
What do you think of Ryker's "response"?

Even the quotation marks around response.

I'm going to just put any arguments you toss against me on ignore unless other people want me to answer them, since there's no point in further elaborating on your stupidity at the moment.

Jeez Nich, my feelings are hurt.[/collapse]

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Stepping Back Whenever Convenient:

Alright, at this point, we all know Nich has claimed that he never intended for the Nickel wagon to be taken seriously. He knew it was a trumped up charge and claimed that he only started as a means to get reactions from the playerlist. However, for some reason, he continues to defend that wagon both before and after that claim of intention.

Here's the first post that he outright states that he had an alternative motive. This is from his #157.

After that little display, we have your attack on me. What don't you like me for? That I'm tunneling Nickel. Because I obviously never, EVER tunnel as town, and even if I did, it's just so OBVIOUS that I'm dead set on Nickel being scum so early and there's just NO CHANCE I might be gauging other player's reactions as well. (Hint: The previous sentence was heavily sarcastic.) I know (alright, after Megaman X, I'm 90% sure) that you're not that stupid, Gheb. Even if my case was completely worthless, it's produced some nice reactions from you guys that I can follow up on, and that's what I was hoping for from the start.

And here is his grimy as **** #193. This is the part I want us to focus on:

Not to mention, I've been focusing a lot on OS's play recently to the point of paranoia, and let me inform you that he does that kind of thing all the time, and it WORKS. Consider that we'd had little aside from setup discussion up to that point, the amount of discussion that one of my cases ALWAYS produces, and suddenly my "WIFOM" motive is rather plausible.

So he's talking about how his motive was always simply to start discussion rather than do anything with the wagon.

Why then, does he do the following?

#176 - Accuses Gheb for being scum for calling him out on what he says he already knew was a bad case.
#307 - Bottom of the first collapse box. Defending the push on Nickel, not as a means of generating content, but on it's merit alone.
#343 - The big one. The entirety of this post is him defending T-Block's push on Nickelback. He even says it would be hypocritical of him to push T-Block on those grounds. Thing is though, he claimed that he was only on that wagon in order to generate discussion, so why is he giving T-Block a pass when he has made no such motive clear. Furthermore, he's STILL DEFENDING THE MERITS OF THE PUSH ITSELF! He picks and chooses his reason for pushing Nickel as it suits him. It changes whenever he needs it to.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I've read through this game seven goddamn times. I'm probably about three trips through from done.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

A Vote From Nich is a Vote From Scum:

Nich has thrown three votes this game and they are all three INCREDIBLY grimy.

Here's the first one, ironically post #66.

T-block has a point here, and Nickel tried to avoid the question, and has posted a few times since without contributing. This calls for a vote.

Unvote, Vote: Nickel

Now. Let's look at this vote. Of course later, he claims it was only to generate discussion, but let's look at his target.

He picked Nickelback.

This man has played one game. It was a newbie where he was scum. The vote is placed on this guy for a lack of content when half the cast hadn't done jack **** and the man in question only had three posts, none of which would lead people to believe that he wouldn't be contributing down the line. In fact, from reading them, I gathered that he was trying to figure out what was going on and would actually contribute if left to his own devices as opposed to a player like Seph or Rajam that hasn't done jack **** even at this stage.

Here are Nickelback's posts.

#5 - Pregame banter.
#34 - RVS vote.
#44 - Examines set-up discussion. Weighs in. At least tries to do something else.

From that point forward, he was under pressure and forced to act off of it. None of those posts should lead Nich or T-Block to think that vote was warranted.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's Nich's second vote from his #157.

@Gheb
Well, for starters, there's you. I don't like your interactions with Nickel any more than you like mine.

1. You're obviously trying to get me to stop pressuring him because you think he'll react badly to said pressure. What's your reasoning that he's town? Let's take a look.



You claim that he's a newbie scared to post his thoughts... something I have NEVER seen from newbie town, although it's not exactly uncommon in newbie SCUM (and Raziek even linked us to some post game commentary revealing that he sheeps and agrees with people as scum). And then there's the classic



"Nobody else is scumhunting either, so you can't single him out!" That is not good reasoning. I'm not claiming my case is some bulletproof masterpiece, it's not. However, "He might not be scum hunting, but you shouldn't care" is not a defense.

2. After that little display, we have your attack on me. What don't you like me for? That I'm tunneling Nickel. Because I obviously never, EVER tunnel as town, and even if I did, it's just so OBVIOUS that I'm dead set on Nickel being scum so early and there's just NO CHANCE I might be gauging other player's reactions as well. (Hint: The previous sentence was heavily sarcastic.) I know (alright, after Megaman X, I'm 90% sure) that you're not that stupid, Gheb. Even if my case was completely worthless, it's produced some nice reactions from you guys that I can follow up on, and that's what I was hoping for from the start.

Unvote.
Vote: Gheb


@Ryker
There's not much to say to "He's a scared kid, and you should quit pressuring him because he's panicking!". If you want, you can go dig up a face palm picture and consider that my official response.

That is complete and total OMGUS. He snaps at the first person to pressure him for a vote that I just outlined was unjustified and then tries to use some self-meta WIFOM bull**** to clear it. He even goes forward to try and justify it by saying that "he's been watching a lot of OS play."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This brings us to his third vote. One for me in his #370.

Very interesting. If they deny it, do you get to use the daykill again later?

Also, since I forgot to do it earlier,

Unvote, Vote: Ryker

Oh boy is this fun. First off, let's note that he later says he had made up his mind from the moment Glyph claimed Day Vig. However, it took him an hour and a half to "remember" that he was going to vote me.

Now, let's look back at his #307. In the second collapse box he claims that he hasn't figured out who is scum yet.

What happened in that 24 hour period between the post where he was unsure and the post where he votes me? I know what the deciding factor was since he never placed his finger on it. It was Gheb voting T-Block and claiming that I needed more examination. CONVENIENTLY, Gheb goes from being his biggest scum read to being one of Nich's two strongest town reads after that as well. He professed this while his vote was still on Gheb until he finally moved it to me after he remembered.

Yeah, no thanks Nich.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

The Problem With Self-Meta:

Oh boy, this one is probably my second favorite after the one you get to see last.

Nich loves his self-meta, but what does he use it to do? The answer, to set himself up in a position where he is able to play in an anti-town manner and not take heat for it.

Anyone remember this?

Not to mention, his attack on me seems rather odd as well. I'm one of the heaviest tunnelers on this site, so how is it logical to call me scummy for said tunneling? Yeah, I'll admit that it's possible for me-scum to try and imitate said tunneling (and logically, what I would try to do as scum). However that doesn't change the fact that I tunnel as town all the time, so you'd need better evidence as to WHY a particular instance of me tunneling is scummy. (And I play with Gheb a fair bit, so he's definitely aware of my meta.)

Or maybe this?

Right. Because clearly the best scum play is to do something highly visible that everyone will see and comment on, plus many will disagree with. As a bonus you'll even get a decent chance of people starting a wagon on you, which is clearly what every mafia member needs. Lots of open information, plenty of clear stances, this is definitely the best game plan for anti-town factions. </sarcasm>

Even though I'm clearly aware of my own meta, to use the "He's tunneling so he's scum" logic on me is on the same level as calling Frozenflame scum for inactivity.



You're making EXACTLY the same mistake I saw from you in your very first game, Gheb. You apply Occam's Razor to a ridiculous extent, cutting out many feasible possibilities in favor of what the most straight-forward brain-dead players would do.

Tell me, when you want to get reactions from players, what do you do? Go "HEY GUYS, HERE'S A CASE, REACT TO IT PLZ!". No, to get legitimate reactions, you HAVE to present it as a legitimate case. (In Time Travelers I took a lot of heat when I failed on that count and literally said I was pressure voting someone.)

Not to mention, I've been focusing a lot on OS's play recently to the point of paranoia, and let me inform you that he does that kind of thing all the time, and it WORKS. Consider that we'd had little aside from setup discussion up to that point, the amount of discussion that one of my cases ALWAYS produces, and suddenly my "WIFOM" motive is rather plausible.

Wow, aren't these two posts just wonderful. They're all we'll be needing for this point, so let's wrap this up quick.

Look what Nich is saying. Seriously, read it again since I'm pretty sure you're mind is already trying to block the painful memory? Doesn't it just make your eyes bleed?

He's trying to say that he has a history of tunneling and that it should be excused since he's done it before. He's seriously trying to write himself a free pass to tunnel the balls out of this game.

Now look again at the second quote.

He is seriously trying to self-meta that he wouldn't act as he has in this game with the paragraph about doing something highly visible. The very fact that he posted that means he's aware that scum can do it just as easily because scum wouldn't do it. It's elementary WIFOM and that's what he's using to defend himself.

He goes on to discourage the use of Occam's Razor and say that we should assume convoluted motives from him, but let's look at what he stands to gain from the explanation in question:

Nich votes Nickel on overblown points to start discussion.

Pros:

>Can generate discussion.

Cons:

>Puts Nickel on the defensive and stunts his output.
>Runs the risk of Nickel saying something stupid as either alignment.
>Risks a Nickel mislynch.
>Risks being called out on his overblown points. Possibly leading to getting yourself lynched.

Feel free to double check that risk-reward ratio, but that does not ring up as town motive if you ask me.






So no, Nich, your WIFOM defense will not stand in my court. Case closed.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

BONUS: Nich and Meta Information:

So I told you I stumbled upon something incredible, right? Well look at this. I was checking the "Who Posted" List to get specific posts from Nich and I accidentally went to his profile instead of his list of posts. I noticed a conversation he was having with J on it, so I checked it out.

Note: All of this took place after he voted me.

He posted on J's wall:

You know, it just completely baffles me how people consider Ryker to be a good player. His scum play is alright, but these days him being town is a train wreck.

Followed by a post from J being nice and responding humoring Nich without insulting me.

Nich posts once more saying:

Eh, honestly I kinda needed an outlet to let off a little steam. I should hydra at some point so I can make those rants to my hydra partner, and have them legitimately allowed to answer any in-game related stuff.

This is the second time I've seen Nich talking in a way that implies that he knows I'm not scum. The first being where he offered me that deal concerning his and T-Block's alignments without taking into account that I could be scum.

Essentially, Nich is attempting to push a lynch on me despite the fact that he thinks I'm town.

No thanks Nich, you can burn.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Unvote

Lots of stuff to read. Ryker vs Nich gets me starting to think that there's hardly any point in lynching anybody except Nich at the moment. Rajam trolling this whole thread is a close second though. Can't say anything for sure until I've read up all that stuff.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Challenge stands, Nich. I want an answer and a reason if you say no.

Why'd you repeat this several times? I mean, it's not like I'm going to answer while asleep.

Anyway, I'll get to your challenge in a minute. I'll go ahead and split up my posts as well, one reply to each point. Probably not going to do all of them at once, I have a limited time window at the moment.

 

[Orboknown]

What do you think of Nickel, now that he's posted his reads? I think we can both agree that his reads aren't top-quality scum hunting, but the only one you questioned was his read on you (and Ryker as it related to you). This is definitely odd, since you stressed that you wanted detail and that you'd question every null to make sure he had good reasoning.

Im sorry i didn't have a full length essay on everyone when most of them hadn't posted too much i thought worth commenting on.

The 4 people who are sitting on Rajam like all Day already may please stop wasting our time now and use their votes to do something.

Such as pressuring freeblock.

ok, ill Unvote, but not gonna vote on kantrip for now.

Nickel's flying under the radar. His reads post was very minimal details-wise, and I think there's a good chance he's scum. He'd be better vigilante fodder than lynch material, but don't let him slip through unnoticed.

Sorry, but i don't write novels in my spare time. I did what lego asked me for, and i naturally summarize **** anyways

2.) Nickel hasn't done shit. Wouldn't mind seeing him vigged.

I said i wouldn't post till monday or today.

Really? What gave you that impression? I'm going to sit here and let you think I don't have Auto-Potion and then I'm going to decide whether or not to lynch you tomorrow after Nich is dead.

Don't like this, but i'll chalk it up to Ryker being ryker.I'm not gonna skew a read on him becaus ehe is being abrasive.

Why bother posting anything ever?

This annoys me.
Rykers points going into my next post.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

I feel dirty using that last point as evidence against him Ryker, but it is a damn convincing one.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ryker tl;dr.

 

[Nicholas1024]

@Town
If you read nothing else, promise me that you'll read this. Please.

Alright. So this case is going to be summed up in five major points: Nich's avoidance of issues that may cause him to be read as scum, his limitless well of AtE and ad hominen used for manipulative purposes, his repeated doubling back on his intention with regard to his initial Nickelback push, his obnoxiously scummy voting pattern, and the way he attempted to use self-meta to set himself up in a position to freely act in an anti-town manner. I'm going to attempt to put it in black and white the reasons why Nich is scum. This will mean slicing through his WIFOM to reach his intentions. Without further ado, let's go to point one.

Dodging A Bullet:

As the image suggests, Nich has spent this game bending over backwards to avoid answering for uncomfortable issues. Here's a few examples:

Answers are inside the collapse tags to avoid thread clutter.

[collapse=Gheb vs. Nich]

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and just assume that he has sub-par intelligence and misunderstood, but here Gheb comes out and corrects him. This is Nich's response:



I'll be coming back to this post a LOT over the course of this case, but for now, let's look specifically here:



Excuse me, what? The point isn't to defend Nickel. It's incredibly obvious by Gheb's post that the point is to attack Nich for his terrible reasoning for a wagon on a player in his second game. Nickel hasn't even played a game as town yet. He ignores everything that comes after the part of Gheb's post in brackets and he even misconstrues that as a defense of Nickel rather than the accusation of selective scum hunting that it was.

For context, here's Gheb's reply in #179. I'm going to cut out the relevant part.



Also for reference so that he can't call strawman, here is Nich's response in #193



Oh boy. This is just full of deflection.

"Eh, true enough, but irrelevant."

WHAT? Of course it's relevant. It's selective scum hunting. The reasoning he posted is full of holes too. He claims that Nickel had been posting frequently at the time. When Nich first voted, Nickel had 3 posts. This has been brought up first by Gova, and then by myself. That reasoning isn't going to cut it.

Here's the first point I'd like to make. The "True enough, but irrelevant" bit was not addressed to the selective scum hunting accusation, it was addressed to the first bit of Gheb's reply. The one that said

I never said anything near "nobody else is scumhunting". I'm saying that other people aren't scumhunting by any means [Glyph, RR, Rajam, ...]

This is tangential both to the initial accusation and my reply. In fact, Gheb's accusation would be stronger if "nobody else is scum hunting" was the truth, since that would make my pick of Nickel more selective.

Now to the actual selecting nickel accusation. If you'll notice, I did address it in my post, but here's the entire bloody quote string to shut you up for good.


[collpase]
Here is the original reason T-block voted him, because of these two posts.

Agreed.
Ryker, is there anyone here who you would trust with your vote based purely on the person?

Because i wanted to be active in some manner and that is the first thing that comes to mind. RVS doesn't interest me but at the same time i dont want that to be a reason for inactivity.

vote: NickelbackR0cks

what say you to being useful as well as active, instead of putting up a facade of being active?

what's your previous mafia experience?

Then, Nickel proceeds to post several more times without giving much of anything

I just finished Newbie 16, won the game as mafia goon with my roleblocker partner lynched D1. OS said i was fine to join this game, so i did.

and what about my accusation that was so neatly disguised as a question?

I will be happy to be of use to town.

L2: Can drain life, causes the target to take one less to lynch, and one more for the user. PUBLICALLY NOTED. or maybe he could be an oracle.

T-block has a point here, and Nickel tried to avoid the question, and has posted a few times since without contributing. This calls for a vote.

Unvote, Vote: Nickel

[/collapse]

So, at the very least I've caught you in a flat out lie with the "He only had three posts" bit. That argument may apply to T-block's slot, but not to mine. Also, I want to know how you missed it after rereading the thread THREE TIMES.

The next quote you address, you once more dodge Gheb's point and instead turn it around venomously accusing him of defending a player and implying malicious intent. You assume you're completely in the right and don't even look at the circumstances.

Funny, this sounds like exactly what you're doing to me. Let's take a look at the facts. The only pressure on Nickel was to scum hunt. You can't just say "No, he shouldn't have to scum hunt!", so to circumvent that kind of pressure, the guy targeted either has to scum hunt, OR the guy applying the pressure has to be distracted. Gheb had attacked both me and T-block, in large part for pressuring Nickel. Whether it was his intention or not, fundamentally that's the same as defending him.

Nich chose a player who was just getting his feet under himself in the game. He's coming off of his first game ever and in that game he was scum. There were multiple other players to choose from, many of which had given EVEN LESS THAN NICKEL! Yet here, instead of responding to the explanation Gheb provided, he jumped on Gheb as scum for questioning his motives.

Time for quote strings part two. Strap in people, this is going to be a bit long. Gheb's claim is that Nickel would have an easier time scum hunting if I wasn't yelling at him all the time. Here's the thing though. I wasn't yelling at him.

Spoiler

I avoided the question? I answered it shortly after that Nich.

@razMind showing where you go tthat list of "not a dancer" from?

Oh.
geezus i feel stupid after that.
time to memorize that list.

You avoided the question, he called you out on it, and then you said you'd be "happy to contribute to town". Which for the record you still haven't done.

This is the one quote where I could see where Gheb is coming from, but even then it's not fierce pressure. But let's keep going.

and this is my third post since i said that.
I have not played town before this game, so im trying to get it down.

you mean like how ryker said right off the bat

@Nickel
That's fine and all, but I would like to see you post something pertaining to scum hunting. I'm rather wary about giving newbies too much slack after Inferno in Megaman X. For instance, what do you think about Xonar's first couple posts? Do they strike you as odd, or do you think the self preservation he's displaying is a null tell? Is there anyone you feel deserves your vote at the moment?

Here, I go "Alright, I'll give you some slack since you're newer, here's a couple of leads that you might be able to scum hunt with, what do you think of them?"

I don't think they show anything, as all he says is "im fine with people pressuring me, but i need to check with swords how he wants to play this".
I dont have anyone that explicitly deserves my vote for now, but no harm in keeping it where it is at for the moment.

Very neutral answer.

eh,stuff happens.
You're welcome.

And that's the end of my contact with Nickel before Gheb comes in.

So, what I'm attacking Gheb for is that his claim of my "bullying" Nickel simply doesn't make sense. I made three posts relative to the kid. One with the initial vote, another explaining the initial vote when he asked me, and a third where I said "Alright, you're new, here's an idea on how to start scum hunting." That is not bullying, and I didn't answer the accusation then and there because I assumed people had READ THE BLASTED THREAD. Forgive me for assuming competence!

In the final part of the above quote, Nich seriously tries to put Gheb off by saying "If I hadn't done the thing you found scummy, you wouldn't be onto me doing the thing I find scummy and most of this wouldn't exist. Since the game moved forward because I looked terrible, that obviously means I was acting in a pro-town manner."

And then the first little piggy built his house out of straw.

There were two points to pressuring Nickel.

1. To get him to post something useful. (And I would like to note, if anyone still doubts pressuring him was justified, he's kinda dropped off the face of the earth by now.)

2. To move along discussion, which is a standard thing for townies to do when near RVS. If you doubt this, I give you the following quotes from early on.

Do you think your argument is solid enough to lynch based off of?

I'd rather wait a bit before answering this, if you don't mind.

Now, I wasn't going to lie and say "yes", and saying "no" (That is, revealing a pressure vote is a pressure vote) served no purpose. So, I decided to wait until the vote had served it's course, and then I'd reveal it's a pressure vote.

So, after going through me v.s. Gheb, there's exactly one point of Ryker's that holds up: That I initially misinterpreted Gheb's argument. However, as I've shown, I do in fact have an answer for all my actions, and that one misinterpretation was an honest mistake.
[/collapse]





[collapse=Ryker vs. Nich]

Ah, it begins. My fun time with Nich. Why, I remember the very first time he avoided my post. It all started with my #178. You see that, nice and pointed. Even includes a question posed directly at him. You know what kind of response I get? Zilch.

His next post is his #193[/url and you can read on from there and see that he never responds.

I never answered it because it got lost in the crowd of things going on at the time, and I had more important things to address. I'll answer it now though. First off, tunneling is not always anti-town, if you're tunneling a scum then it's definitely pro-town, like I did in Time Travelers. Secondly, I don't tunnel blind. I do focus on one person a lot, but I also take the occasional step back to re-evaluate, and determine whether I should continue or choose another target. Thirdly, you still have to explain why me doing something that I normally do as town can be used as a scum tell.

Next you've got where I hit the ground running. I posted a lot of information concerning Nich. My [url=http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14060481&postcount=280]#280

, #284, #285, #286, #287, #288, #295, #298, and #299 all concern him.

Here's his response:

See that promise at the bottom? He NEVER gets to that more detailed response. And as you can see in comparing them, he ignores MULTIPLE POSTS and lumps them all together in this reply.

This is an outright lie. Here's that more detailed response.

Spoiler

Alright, collapsed stuff is minor points, stuff I left expanded are more important things.

Spoiler

Not irrelevant. Are you mental?

Here's the chain of events.

1. Gheb mentions I'm selective in picking out Nickel for not scumhunting.
2. I say that "Nobody else is scum hunting" is hardly a valid defense.
3. Gheb points out that some people were scum hunting, just not everyone.
4. Although that is true, it's more or less irrelevant to the original point, since "Other people aren't scum hunting either" is still a bad defense.


STOP SPINNING EVERYTHING!

The original point was that YOU picked out Nickle FOR SELECTIVE REASONS! No one was defending Nickel. You keep twisting Gheb's post into some monstrosity.

Spoiler

http://z0r.de/196

All you're doing is spinning. No one is defending Nickel. Everyone is examining your motive for pressuring Nickel and finding it lacking.

You know, attacking the main guy attacking Nickel FOR pressuring Nickel is fairly similar to a defense of Nickel. Especially since the pressure was me saying "Post something useful", and you can't exactly go "No, he shouldn't have to be useful."

No. It's not any more plausible. Saying "it's all part of my master plan" is, more often than not, an excuse to justify it after the fact. No. You're setting yourself up in a win-win scenario.

If they buy it, I get to run a wagon on the newbie. If they don't, I back-pedal out of it and no harm, no foul.

You need to have a goal and visible results in order to try that strategy as town. You don't as scum. That's what you're missing.

Take it from an expert idiot.

Here's what Ryker's saying throughout these posts. That I should always be assumed to have the most straightforwards and scummy intention, and no other possibilities are to be even considered. I've pointed out all these surrounding circumstances regarding how it being a vote for pressure and to create content makes far more sense than it being a vote with intent to lynch, and his response is literally "Nope, you're not that smart, you're scum."

Since Gheb started on you, you've done little to nothing to progress the game and have instead been worried about your *** to the exclusion of all else. This post shows it alll.

This is a lie. To put it bluntly, me vs Gheb has been THE major factor in progressing the game. Yes, I'm focused on it, that's because it's the main thing to focus on. I also comment on other stuff that's happening, so there's just no grain of truth to this whatsoever.

Spoiler

EE thinks you're scummy too.

Explain what you mean by "repeat of Fire Emblem" so I can insult you.

Who are the scum on your wagon and why are they scum? You're throwing out that threat to try and get people to back off a little.

Nice, AtE everywhere, btw.

P.S. - An over 9000 joke? Really?

I'm not entirely sure yet where the scum are. That's why I'm questioning people regarding their motives for voting me, so I can figure it out.

Here you say you're sticking to your guns, however, THROUGHOUT THE GAME YOU'VE BEEN SAYING STUFF LIKE THE FOLLOWING:

"Maybe I was a little premature."

or blatantly contradicting your current post by saying

"It was just to get a reaction. It was all part of my master plan."

There is only ONE THING that I've been claiming had a hidden intent, and that was my pressure on Nickel, which should be fairly obvious that it had another purpose to anyone with a passing familiarity with mafia. If you want to make these claims, put them in quotes with context.

Here's my answer:



This is the first of MULTIPLE TIMES THAT I CHALLENGE HIM TO SHOW THE STRAWMAN! He never shows where I take things out of context.

I'm putting this accusation to rest once and for all in this series of posts, so regardless of whether you think I answered it before (and #307 WAS an answer), it ends now.

I would quote his #307, but his liberal use of quotes would neuter it.

My response is in the next post and it's the Yankee Doodle parody that he VEHEMENTLY DENIES HAS ANY SEED OF A POINT TO IT! He refuses to expand on it, but let's break it down seeing as it is a reply to 307.

That's okay, I went to the trouble of putting 307 up there for you guys to see so there's no foul play (on my end) here.

Point 1.) Dodging the point with regards to Gheb which is outlined in the first collapse box.

Addressed exhaustively in the me vs Gheb collapse box.

Point 2.) Shows that the three unique points that he summarized in his #307 were lumped together and discarded without being responded to.

Let's take a closer look at those three unique points, shall we?

No. It's not any more plausible. Saying "it's all part of my master plan" is, more often than not, an excuse to justify it after the fact. No. You're setting yourself up in a win-win scenario.

If they buy it, I get to run a wagon on the newbie. If they don't, I back-pedal out of it and no harm, no foul.

You need to have a goal and visible results in order to try that strategy as town. You don't as scum. That's what you're missing.

Take it from an expert idiot.

In short, all three of them follow the same pattern. Ryker here is ignoring any and all surrounding circumstances, plus my consistent claims that I voted Nickel for discussion and to pressure him into contributing, and saying "Nope, you're a brain dead scum player trying to get an easy lynch." Are they all quite the same? No, but they're all very similar, and are all dismantled by the same reply.

Point 3.) I call his bluff saying he's been a major contributor to scum hunting. He does nothing to address it and that was a painfully obvious call-out that he ignored.

Seriously, do I have to even point out how stupid of an attack this is? Even aside from exhaustive cases on you and Gheb, I did have thoughts on other players, which are summarized here.

In case that was a vigilante shot, I'd better give my final thoughts.

Gheb I no longer see as my #1 target, but I still think he's rather scummy. I've gone over the specifics before, but I do think interactions not related to me, T-block, or Nickel feel somewhat townie. On the other hand, his actions w.r.t. me/T-block feel very bad. For instance, after (rightfully) calling out Ryker for using the "He agrees with me so he's town" logic, he then claims Glyph is confirmed town for voting T-block.

Ryker would be my number 1 lynch choice at the moment, and there's a few simple reasons why.

1. It's far scummier to agree with a bad case than it is to make a bad case. Basically, whenever a bad wagon progresses, scum is almost always involved, and they usually join in the middle to avoid heat. Ryker fits this profile so far, as he was the third person to go after me, which is his main contribution to this game (aside from a few shots at T-block later on when he became a fashionable target).

2. When Gheb argued with me, he'd address my entire argument and keep things in context, even if I felt his answers were bad. Ryker on the other hand started by taking half a dozen quotes, stripping the context, picking out the bits he felt were easiest to twist, and then calling it a case. You can see my first big reply to him for more details on that. Also, his little song looks impressive at first glance, but in reality the only content there is roughly three lines of name calling without explaining how the accusations apply. In short, he's using a very dishonest style of argument to show a highly distorted version of my play instead of the whole picture.

3. If Gheb's mistaken town, then he can still be useful later on, although his recent play hasn't been stellar, I trust he's still capable of reevaluating things and making coherent arguments. What's Ryker going to do aside from act high and mighty while tossing around insults?

Anyway, some other things that stick out at me...

Nickel's flying under the radar. His reads post was very minimal details-wise, and I think there's a good chance he's scum. He'd be better vigilante fodder than lynch material, but don't let him slip through unnoticed.

Similarly, keep an eye on Inferno and Lego. I can't recall either of them having taken an unpopular stance, and they doesn't seem to push much on their own. Nothing concrete here, but I don't trust either.

Assuming Glyph's telling the truth, I suppose he's near confirmed. If he's faking the shot, then I applaud him for the play, give him a lot more credit for intelligence, and still think he's townie.

Might have more, but I want to make sure I get this out there in time.

Point 4.) I point out how he goes back and forth on his original intention with the push on Orbo as it serves his interests.

Addressed this as well under vs Gheb.

Point 5.) Even the chorus points something out. EVERYTHING he puts out there is spun to hell and he drops WIFOM everywhere between his AtE, his insults, and his self-meta. It's disgusting.

You're the one calling WIFOM. Let's take a closer look at an easy example, my point that scum would rather stay in the background then be in the forefront.

Reasons why scum would want to be in the background:
Because people in the background are usually less noticed than those in the forefront, and so less likely to be lynched.


Reasons why scum would want to be in the forefront:
Because people may think those hiding in the background are scum due to the above. AKA: WIFOM.

In short, you take realistic points that don't even involve WIFOM (that scum would naturally rather stay in the background), AND claim that just because WIFOM could conceivably be induced in this scenario, that I'm abusing it! Asking "Why would scum act this way" IS NOT WIFOM.


One last thing I'd like to note about the song: None of the points are actually substantiated, it's just random accusations that I'd already addressed previously anyway. I mean, if I toss in here

Gheb, your defense of Nickel SUCKED.

Should he honestly need to give a serious answer to that? Of course not.

This is his response to calling him on his OMGUS.





Here I, yet again, challenge him to point out where I've been strawmanning him.



Here again he changes the subject and doesn't do as I requested.

Don't you get it yet? 307 IS the reply to where you've been straw manning and taking me out of context, with the occasional blatant lie thrown in.

[/collapse]

[collapse=Legolas vs. Nich]

Here's Lego's #329 where he expresses his issue with Nich.

Here is Nich's response:



That's right. NO RESPONSE TO ACCUSATIONS WHATSOEVER! Just proceeds to threaten anyone who takes issue with him.

Let me clue you in, Ryker. When I don't answer something, a lot of the time it's because the accusation is so patently false that it doesn't need an answer. Here's the original post.

Where's the in detail results of this analysis? I'd like to see how genuine it is. Although I've been at Gheb's throat the entire game, I think he has a point, there's no real proof that you've been scum hunting here. What do you think of Nickel, now that he's posted his reads? I think we can both agree that his reads aren't top-quality scum hunting, but the only one you questioned was his read on you (and Ryker as it related to you). This is definitely odd, since you stressed that you wanted detail and that you'd question every null to make sure he had good reasoning. What's your opinion on him now?


Since Ryker's such a good player, I'm allowed to just go "You liar, bad players always sheep" and assume your motive is scummy, right?

More to the point, although the above is possible, there isn't evidence for it yet. You need to give in depth evidence of why you find your scum reads scummy to prove that you're scum hunting rather than sheeping.

I don't say "You haven't been scum hunting, you're scum!", but rather point out that there isn't conclusive evidence either way and ask for examples of scum hunting. This isn't latching on to a bad push, it happens to be SCUMHUNTING (something you accused me of not having earlier.)

Here's Lego's #331 and the following posts. Go ahead and read for yourself. Nich proceeds to continue the conversation, but never covers the accusations.

He ends it by saying "Right..." and changing the subject to Sworddancer's catch-up post.

I love how you selectively don't quote stuff to make me look bad. Here's the rest of the conversation for you guys.

Wait which statement was I getting defensive over?

To be more specific, I know you've said you think Nickel is town, but I want to know why you think he's town, since he hasn't done much.

And you were getting defensive over my statement that although it's possible you've scum hunted, Gheb does have a point that you could be sheeping here.

He's sincerely scumhunting. It's sincere and it shows that he's been trying. I know how a noobscum looks, and he's not one. Call it a gut, I guess?



Because the logic is just aggravating. It's more aggravation than defensiveness :/

And then's where I go "right..." (because there's no real answer to saying "Gut read"), and ask again for sword's catch up post, aka: him scum hunting. Which he never did answer, actually.
[/collapse]

Over and over and over he avoids the issues that might cause him trouble. He's been doing it the entire game and attacking ANYONE who has expressed an issue with him. There are also small areas where he's on Gova in similar fashion, but I'm not rereading a fourth time for this point.

This point alone should be enough to get him lynched, but I've got four more coming.

You accuse me of avoiding issues, but in general the ones I don't answer are the ones that are obviously false and don't NEED an answer. I spend enough time on this game as is, I don't need to spend another hour making a detailed response to a ridiculous accusation. This becomes obvious when you go back to the quotes and look at the actual chain of events, as I've spent my morning doing here.

Nich, you're going to look like Hiroshima in September of 1945 by the time I'm done with you.

I can't get to the other 4 until later, I have class. But I'll leave this as a sign of what's to come for you.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Blast it, messed up a collapse tag. Edit by way of post.


@Town
If you read nothing else, promise me that you'll read this. Please.

Alright. So this case is going to be summed up in five major points: Nich's avoidance of issues that may cause him to be read as scum, his limitless well of AtE and ad hominen used for manipulative purposes, his repeated doubling back on his intention with regard to his initial Nickelback push, his obnoxiously scummy voting pattern, and the way he attempted to use self-meta to set himself up in a position to freely act in an anti-town manner. I'm going to attempt to put it in black and white the reasons why Nich is scum. This will mean slicing through his WIFOM to reach his intentions. Without further ado, let's go to point one.

Dodging A Bullet:

As the image suggests, Nich has spent this game bending over backwards to avoid answering for uncomfortable issues. Here's a few examples:

Answers are inside the collapse tags to avoid thread clutter.

[collapse=Gheb vs. Nich]

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and just assume that he has sub-par intelligence and misunderstood, but here Gheb comes out and corrects him. This is Nich's response:



I'll be coming back to this post a LOT over the course of this case, but for now, let's look specifically here:



Excuse me, what? The point isn't to defend Nickel. It's incredibly obvious by Gheb's post that the point is to attack Nich for his terrible reasoning for a wagon on a player in his second game. Nickel hasn't even played a game as town yet. He ignores everything that comes after the part of Gheb's post in brackets and he even misconstrues that as a defense of Nickel rather than the accusation of selective scum hunting that it was.

For context, here's Gheb's reply in #179. I'm going to cut out the relevant part.



Also for reference so that he can't call strawman, here is Nich's response in #193



Oh boy. This is just full of deflection.

"Eh, true enough, but irrelevant."

WHAT? Of course it's relevant. It's selective scum hunting. The reasoning he posted is full of holes too. He claims that Nickel had been posting frequently at the time. When Nich first voted, Nickel had 3 posts. This has been brought up first by Gova, and then by myself. That reasoning isn't going to cut it.

Here's the first point I'd like to make. The "True enough, but irrelevant" bit was not addressed to the selective scum hunting accusation, it was addressed to the first bit of Gheb's reply. The one that said

I never said anything near "nobody else is scumhunting". I'm saying that other people aren't scumhunting by any means [Glyph, RR, Rajam, ...]

This is tangential both to the initial accusation and my reply. In fact, Gheb's accusation would be stronger if "nobody else is scum hunting" was the truth, since that would make my pick of Nickel more selective.

Now to the actual selecting nickel accusation. If you'll notice, I did address it in my post, but here's the entire bloody quote string to shut you up for good.

Spoiler

Here is the original reason T-block voted him, because of these two posts.

Agreed.
Ryker, is there anyone here who you would trust with your vote based purely on the person?

Because i wanted to be active in some manner and that is the first thing that comes to mind. RVS doesn't interest me but at the same time i dont want that to be a reason for inactivity.

vote: NickelbackR0cks

what say you to being useful as well as active, instead of putting up a facade of being active?

what's your previous mafia experience?

Then, Nickel proceeds to post several more times without giving much of anything

I just finished Newbie 16, won the game as mafia goon with my roleblocker partner lynched D1. OS said i was fine to join this game, so i did.

and what about my accusation that was so neatly disguised as a question?

I will be happy to be of use to town.

L2: Can drain life, causes the target to take one less to lynch, and one more for the user. PUBLICALLY NOTED. or maybe he could be an oracle.

T-block has a point here, and Nickel tried to avoid the question, and has posted a few times since without contributing. This calls for a vote.

Unvote, Vote: Nickel

So, at the very least I've caught you in a flat out lie with the "He only had three posts" bit. That argument may apply to T-block's slot, but not to mine. Also, I want to know how you missed it after rereading the thread THREE TIMES.

The next quote you address, you once more dodge Gheb's point and instead turn it around venomously accusing him of defending a player and implying malicious intent. You assume you're completely in the right and don't even look at the circumstances.

Funny, this sounds like exactly what you're doing to me. Let's take a look at the facts. The only pressure on Nickel was to scum hunt. You can't just say "No, he shouldn't have to scum hunt!", so to circumvent that kind of pressure, the guy targeted either has to scum hunt, OR the guy applying the pressure has to be distracted. Gheb had attacked both me and T-block, in large part for pressuring Nickel. Whether it was his intention or not, fundamentally that's the same as defending him.

Nich chose a player who was just getting his feet under himself in the game. He's coming off of his first game ever and in that game he was scum. There were multiple other players to choose from, many of which had given EVEN LESS THAN NICKEL! Yet here, instead of responding to the explanation Gheb provided, he jumped on Gheb as scum for questioning his motives.

Time for quote strings part two. Strap in people, this is going to be a bit long. Gheb's claim is that Nickel would have an easier time scum hunting if I wasn't yelling at him all the time. Here's the thing though. I wasn't yelling at him.

Spoiler

I avoided the question? I answered it shortly after that Nich.

@razMind showing where you go tthat list of "not a dancer" from?

Oh.
geezus i feel stupid after that.
time to memorize that list.

You avoided the question, he called you out on it, and then you said you'd be "happy to contribute to town". Which for the record you still haven't done.

This is the one quote where I could see where Gheb is coming from, but even then it's not fierce pressure. But let's keep going.

and this is my third post since i said that.
I have not played town before this game, so im trying to get it down.

you mean like how ryker said right off the bat

@Nickel
That's fine and all, but I would like to see you post something pertaining to scum hunting. I'm rather wary about giving newbies too much slack after Inferno in Megaman X. For instance, what do you think about Xonar's first couple posts? Do they strike you as odd, or do you think the self preservation he's displaying is a null tell? Is there anyone you feel deserves your vote at the moment?

Here, I go "Alright, I'll give you some slack since you're newer, here's a couple of leads that you might be able to scum hunt with, what do you think of them?"

I don't think they show anything, as all he says is "im fine with people pressuring me, but i need to check with swords how he wants to play this".
I dont have anyone that explicitly deserves my vote for now, but no harm in keeping it where it is at for the moment.

Very neutral answer.

eh,stuff happens.
You're welcome.

And that's the end of my contact with Nickel before Gheb comes in.

So, what I'm attacking Gheb for is that his claim of my "bullying" Nickel simply doesn't make sense. I made three posts relative to the kid. One with the initial vote, another explaining the initial vote when he asked me, and a third where I said "Alright, you're new, here's an idea on how to start scum hunting." That is not bullying, and I didn't answer the accusation then and there because I assumed people had READ THE BLASTED THREAD. Forgive me for assuming competence!

In the final part of the above quote, Nich seriously tries to put Gheb off by saying "If I hadn't done the thing you found scummy, you wouldn't be onto me doing the thing I find scummy and most of this wouldn't exist. Since the game moved forward because I looked terrible, that obviously means I was acting in a pro-town manner."

And then the first little piggy built his house out of straw.

There were two points to pressuring Nickel.

1. To get him to post something useful. (And I would like to note, if anyone still doubts pressuring him was justified, he's kinda dropped off the face of the earth by now.)

2. To move along discussion, which is a standard thing for townies to do when near RVS. If you doubt this, I give you the following quotes from early on.

Do you think your argument is solid enough to lynch based off of?

I'd rather wait a bit before answering this, if you don't mind.

Now, I wasn't going to lie and say "yes", and saying "no" (That is, revealing a pressure vote is a pressure vote) served no purpose. So, I decided to wait until the vote had served it's course, and then I'd reveal it's a pressure vote.

So, after going through me v.s. Gheb, there's exactly one point of Ryker's that holds up: That I initially misinterpreted Gheb's argument. However, as I've shown, I do in fact have an answer for all my actions, and that one misinterpretation was an honest mistake.
[/collapse]





[collapse=Ryker vs. Nich]

Ah, it begins. My fun time with Nich. Why, I remember the very first time he avoided my post. It all started with my #178. You see that, nice and pointed. Even includes a question posed directly at him. You know what kind of response I get? Zilch.

His next post is his #193[/url and you can read on from there and see that he never responds.

I never answered it because it got lost in the crowd of things going on at the time, and I had more important things to address. I'll answer it now though. First off, tunneling is not always anti-town, if you're tunneling a scum then it's definitely pro-town, like I did in Time Travelers. Secondly, I don't tunnel blind. I do focus on one person a lot, but I also take the occasional step back to re-evaluate, and determine whether I should continue or choose another target. Thirdly, you still have to explain why me doing something that I normally do as town can be used as a scum tell.

Next you've got where I hit the ground running. I posted a lot of information concerning Nich. My [url=http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14060481&postcount=280]#280

, #284, #285, #286, #287, #288, #295, #298, and #299 all concern him.

Here's his response:

See that promise at the bottom? He NEVER gets to that more detailed response. And as you can see in comparing them, he ignores MULTIPLE POSTS and lumps them all together in this reply.

This is an outright lie. Here's that more detailed response.

Spoiler

Alright, collapsed stuff is minor points, stuff I left expanded are more important things.

Spoiler

Not irrelevant. Are you mental?

Here's the chain of events.

1. Gheb mentions I'm selective in picking out Nickel for not scumhunting.
2. I say that "Nobody else is scum hunting" is hardly a valid defense.
3. Gheb points out that some people were scum hunting, just not everyone.
4. Although that is true, it's more or less irrelevant to the original point, since "Other people aren't scum hunting either" is still a bad defense.


STOP SPINNING EVERYTHING!

The original point was that YOU picked out Nickle FOR SELECTIVE REASONS! No one was defending Nickel. You keep twisting Gheb's post into some monstrosity.

Spoiler

http://z0r.de/196

All you're doing is spinning. No one is defending Nickel. Everyone is examining your motive for pressuring Nickel and finding it lacking.

You know, attacking the main guy attacking Nickel FOR pressuring Nickel is fairly similar to a defense of Nickel. Especially since the pressure was me saying "Post something useful", and you can't exactly go "No, he shouldn't have to be useful."

No. It's not any more plausible. Saying "it's all part of my master plan" is, more often than not, an excuse to justify it after the fact. No. You're setting yourself up in a win-win scenario.

If they buy it, I get to run a wagon on the newbie. If they don't, I back-pedal out of it and no harm, no foul.

You need to have a goal and visible results in order to try that strategy as town. You don't as scum. That's what you're missing.

Take it from an expert idiot.

Here's what Ryker's saying throughout these posts. That I should always be assumed to have the most straightforwards and scummy intention, and no other possibilities are to be even considered. I've pointed out all these surrounding circumstances regarding how it being a vote for pressure and to create content makes far more sense than it being a vote with intent to lynch, and his response is literally "Nope, you're not that smart, you're scum."

Since Gheb started on you, you've done little to nothing to progress the game and have instead been worried about your *** to the exclusion of all else. This post shows it alll.

This is a lie. To put it bluntly, me vs Gheb has been THE major factor in progressing the game. Yes, I'm focused on it, that's because it's the main thing to focus on. I also comment on other stuff that's happening, so there's just no grain of truth to this whatsoever.

Spoiler

EE thinks you're scummy too.

Explain what you mean by "repeat of Fire Emblem" so I can insult you.

Who are the scum on your wagon and why are they scum? You're throwing out that threat to try and get people to back off a little.

Nice, AtE everywhere, btw.

P.S. - An over 9000 joke? Really?

I'm not entirely sure yet where the scum are. That's why I'm questioning people regarding their motives for voting me, so I can figure it out.

Here you say you're sticking to your guns, however, THROUGHOUT THE GAME YOU'VE BEEN SAYING STUFF LIKE THE FOLLOWING:

"Maybe I was a little premature."

or blatantly contradicting your current post by saying

"It was just to get a reaction. It was all part of my master plan."

There is only ONE THING that I've been claiming had a hidden intent, and that was my pressure on Nickel, which should be fairly obvious that it had another purpose to anyone with a passing familiarity with mafia. If you want to make these claims, put them in quotes with context.

Here's my answer:



This is the first of MULTIPLE TIMES THAT I CHALLENGE HIM TO SHOW THE STRAWMAN! He never shows where I take things out of context.

I'm putting this accusation to rest once and for all in this series of posts, so regardless of whether you think I answered it before (and #307 WAS an answer), it ends now.

I would quote his #307, but his liberal use of quotes would neuter it.

My response is in the next post and it's the Yankee Doodle parody that he VEHEMENTLY DENIES HAS ANY SEED OF A POINT TO IT! He refuses to expand on it, but let's break it down seeing as it is a reply to 307.

That's okay, I went to the trouble of putting 307 up there for you guys to see so there's no foul play (on my end) here.

Point 1.) Dodging the point with regards to Gheb which is outlined in the first collapse box.

Addressed exhaustively in the me vs Gheb collapse box.

Point 2.) Shows that the three unique points that he summarized in his #307 were lumped together and discarded without being responded to.

Let's take a closer look at those three unique points, shall we?

No. It's not any more plausible. Saying "it's all part of my master plan" is, more often than not, an excuse to justify it after the fact. No. You're setting yourself up in a win-win scenario.

If they buy it, I get to run a wagon on the newbie. If they don't, I back-pedal out of it and no harm, no foul.

You need to have a goal and visible results in order to try that strategy as town. You don't as scum. That's what you're missing.

Take it from an expert idiot.

In short, all three of them follow the same pattern. Ryker here is ignoring any and all surrounding circumstances, plus my consistent claims that I voted Nickel for discussion and to pressure him into contributing, and saying "Nope, you're a brain dead scum player trying to get an easy lynch." Are they all quite the same? No, but they're all very similar, and are all dismantled by the same reply.

Point 3.) I call his bluff saying he's been a major contributor to scum hunting. He does nothing to address it and that was a painfully obvious call-out that he ignored.

Seriously, do I have to even point out how stupid of an attack this is? Even aside from exhaustive cases on you and Gheb, I did have thoughts on other players, which are summarized here.

In case that was a vigilante shot, I'd better give my final thoughts.

Gheb I no longer see as my #1 target, but I still think he's rather scummy. I've gone over the specifics before, but I do think interactions not related to me, T-block, or Nickel feel somewhat townie. On the other hand, his actions w.r.t. me/T-block feel very bad. For instance, after (rightfully) calling out Ryker for using the "He agrees with me so he's town" logic, he then claims Glyph is confirmed town for voting T-block.

Ryker would be my number 1 lynch choice at the moment, and there's a few simple reasons why.

1. It's far scummier to agree with a bad case than it is to make a bad case. Basically, whenever a bad wagon progresses, scum is almost always involved, and they usually join in the middle to avoid heat. Ryker fits this profile so far, as he was the third person to go after me, which is his main contribution to this game (aside from a few shots at T-block later on when he became a fashionable target).

2. When Gheb argued with me, he'd address my entire argument and keep things in context, even if I felt his answers were bad. Ryker on the other hand started by taking half a dozen quotes, stripping the context, picking out the bits he felt were easiest to twist, and then calling it a case. You can see my first big reply to him for more details on that. Also, his little song looks impressive at first glance, but in reality the only content there is roughly three lines of name calling without explaining how the accusations apply. In short, he's using a very dishonest style of argument to show a highly distorted version of my play instead of the whole picture.

3. If Gheb's mistaken town, then he can still be useful later on, although his recent play hasn't been stellar, I trust he's still capable of reevaluating things and making coherent arguments. What's Ryker going to do aside from act high and mighty while tossing around insults?

Anyway, some other things that stick out at me...

Nickel's flying under the radar. His reads post was very minimal details-wise, and I think there's a good chance he's scum. He'd be better vigilante fodder than lynch material, but don't let him slip through unnoticed.

Similarly, keep an eye on Inferno and Lego. I can't recall either of them having taken an unpopular stance, and they doesn't seem to push much on their own. Nothing concrete here, but I don't trust either.

Assuming Glyph's telling the truth, I suppose he's near confirmed. If he's faking the shot, then I applaud him for the play, give him a lot more credit for intelligence, and still think he's townie.

Might have more, but I want to make sure I get this out there in time.

Point 4.) I point out how he goes back and forth on his original intention with the push on Orbo as it serves his interests.

Addressed this as well under vs Gheb.

Point 5.) Even the chorus points something out. EVERYTHING he puts out there is spun to hell and he drops WIFOM everywhere between his AtE, his insults, and his self-meta. It's disgusting.

You're the one calling WIFOM. Let's take a closer look at an easy example, my point that scum would rather stay in the background then be in the forefront.

Reasons why scum would want to be in the background:
Because people in the background are usually less noticed than those in the forefront, and so less likely to be lynched.


Reasons why scum would want to be in the forefront:
Because people may think those hiding in the background are scum due to the above. AKA: WIFOM.

In short, you take realistic points that don't even involve WIFOM (that scum would naturally rather stay in the background), AND claim that just because WIFOM could conceivably be induced in this scenario, that I'm abusing it! Asking "Why would scum act this way" IS NOT WIFOM.


One last thing I'd like to note about the song: None of the points are actually substantiated, it's just random accusations that I'd already addressed previously anyway. I mean, if I toss in here

Gheb, your defense of Nickel SUCKED.

Should he honestly need to give a serious answer to that? Of course not.

This is his response to calling him on his OMGUS.





Here I, yet again, challenge him to point out where I've been strawmanning him.



Here again he changes the subject and doesn't do as I requested.

Don't you get it yet? 307 IS the reply to where you've been straw manning and taking me out of context, with the occasional blatant lie thrown in.

[/collapse]

[collapse=Legolas vs. Nich]

Here's Lego's #329 where he expresses his issue with Nich.

Here is Nich's response:



That's right. NO RESPONSE TO ACCUSATIONS WHATSOEVER! Just proceeds to threaten anyone who takes issue with him.

Let me clue you in, Ryker. When I don't answer something, a lot of the time it's because the accusation is so patently false that it doesn't need an answer. Here's the original post.

Where's the in detail results of this analysis? I'd like to see how genuine it is. Although I've been at Gheb's throat the entire game, I think he has a point, there's no real proof that you've been scum hunting here. What do you think of Nickel, now that he's posted his reads? I think we can both agree that his reads aren't top-quality scum hunting, but the only one you questioned was his read on you (and Ryker as it related to you). This is definitely odd, since you stressed that you wanted detail and that you'd question every null to make sure he had good reasoning. What's your opinion on him now?


Since Ryker's such a good player, I'm allowed to just go "You liar, bad players always sheep" and assume your motive is scummy, right?

More to the point, although the above is possible, there isn't evidence for it yet. You need to give in depth evidence of why you find your scum reads scummy to prove that you're scum hunting rather than sheeping.

I don't say "You haven't been scum hunting, you're scum!", but rather point out that there isn't conclusive evidence either way and ask for examples of scum hunting. This isn't latching on to a bad push, it happens to be SCUMHUNTING (something you accused me of not having earlier.)

Here's Lego's #331 and the following posts. Go ahead and read for yourself. Nich proceeds to continue the conversation, but never covers the accusations.

He ends it by saying "Right..." and changing the subject to Sworddancer's catch-up post.

I love how you selectively don't quote stuff to make me look bad. Here's the rest of the conversation for you guys.

Wait which statement was I getting defensive over?

To be more specific, I know you've said you think Nickel is town, but I want to know why you think he's town, since he hasn't done much.

And you were getting defensive over my statement that although it's possible you've scum hunted, Gheb does have a point that you could be sheeping here.

He's sincerely scumhunting. It's sincere and it shows that he's been trying. I know how a noobscum looks, and he's not one. Call it a gut, I guess?



Because the logic is just aggravating. It's more aggravation than defensiveness :/

And then's where I go "right..." (because there's no real answer to saying "Gut read"), and ask again for sword's catch up post, aka: him scum hunting. Which he never did answer, actually.
[/collapse]

Over and over and over he avoids the issues that might cause him trouble. He's been doing it the entire game and attacking ANYONE who has expressed an issue with him. There are also small areas where he's on Gova in similar fashion, but I'm not rereading a fourth time for this point.

This point alone should be enough to get him lynched, but I've got four more coming.

You accuse me of avoiding issues, but in general the ones I don't answer are the ones that are obviously false and don't NEED an answer. I spend enough time on this game as is, I don't need to spend another hour making a detailed response to a ridiculous accusation. This becomes obvious when you go back to the quotes and look at the actual chain of events, as I've spent my morning doing here.

Nich, you're going to look like Hiroshima in September of 1945 by the time I'm done with you.

I can't get to the other 4 until later, I have class. But I'll leave this as a sign of what's to come for you.

 

[Orboknown]

1. To get him to post something useful. (And I would like to note, if anyone still doubts pressuring him was justified, he's kinda dropped off the face of the earth by now.)

I just posted earlier today. I said saturday i wouldnt be posting until monday/today. Did everyone miss that?
In short, having read every post and wall in this game, i agree with ryker.
Vote:Nicholas

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah, after digging into that stuff I can't say that Ryker's case doesn't have a lot of truth in it. I haven't read much of Nich's response yet but based on personal experience I don't expect a lot anyway tbh. Not that I'm not willing to give Nich his chance to defend himself but I can't see him justify all of that thoroughly.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I also approve of Ryker's effort to actually compile all the info we've had on Nich so far. It's a good example of taking a real stance based on you own work [@Xonar, whom I've been critizicing for not doing so]. Shows that he's not just following the crowd.