FIGHT ME! - An All Around Meta Knight Thread.

[Xzax Kasrani]

Ok, I am going to post a bunch of things(frame data, match ups you need to know, percents, good stages, bad stages, ect.) This is going to be the ultimate Meta Knight thread!

****PART 1- MATCH UPS YOU NEED TO KNOW****


1.


1. Bowser, the most underated character on the SBR tier list. This character can either ground release and or air release chaingrab almost ALL of the cast! This is no different with Meta, he gets it 2nd worst out of all the characters(Falco can be 0 to deathed). He is easly high tier. Bowser counters Meta on FD, not only his chaingrab but he can combo out of his chaingrab the best of this stage. If he crab releases you the whole stage from 70% he can kill you, by grab releasing into a fair(At the end of FD, bowser can make you do a air release into a fair and kill you. And if you torando spam, bowser can up b you out of his shield.
-Vex Kasrani
2. If you dont get grabbed and you camp HEAVILY. This isn't too hard of a matchup for Meta. Just play smart, and tornado spam when his shield is low. Just Ban FD.
-Inui

1=
60/40 in META FAVOR
50/50 on FD

2=
65/35 in META FAVOR
55/45 on FD in META FAVOR


2.

1. Snakes Camping abilitlies can over-welm Meta Knight. It stops tornado. Snake is a very powerful and fast attacking character. Tornado is very unsafe. You can not apporach Snake when hes pulling out nads. The only thing Meta has against Snake is gimping him. But even that doesn't win it for Meta.
- Mew2King, Inui, Teh_Spammerer, and Xzax
1=
1st Look 60/40 Snake
2nd Look 55/45 Snake

3.
1. If Olimars space, and grabs you well you can't do anything. He can hit you out of tornado with grab and hit you out of dair with up smash. He can combo you well, and is a scary character to face on the ground. If your not smart enough, you will loose.
- Xzax
2. Olimar ***** you on the ground, and can hit you out of moves. You gotta play smart, and gimp him no matter what if your gonna win.
-Inui

1=
1st Look 50/50
2nd Look 50/50

2=
1st Look 50/50
2nd Look 60/40 Meta(if you can gimp him and not get grabbed a lot)

4.

1= I'll give extra attention to this one because it is one of my favorite match ups and I have a lot of experience playing top Metaknight players.

ZSS can camp Metaknight and keep him at bay well. Retreating forward B's and paralyzer shots will do the trick for that. One thing to look out for, however is his tornado. This will stop both of your approaches, so whenever he does this I try to run to the other side of the stage and shield whatever is left of the attack. Metas often try to land right next to you and down smash after this, so I immediently short hop out of my shield after the tornado and B-air them after their D-smash comes out. If the tornado is close to the ground, ZSS can grab him out of it or down smash him. However, the better Metaknight players seem to come from above with it.

A MAJOR advantage that ZSS has on Metaknight is the fact that she can hit and even spike Meta out of his shuttle loop (Up-B). This removes one of his most broken attacks, and will help you big time. Most decent Metas will attempt to backwards shuttle loop as an edgeguard off the stage. It is possible to down B attack and spike him during it if you time it just right. Even if it doesn't spike, usually you will trade hits. When this happens most of the time ZSS gets sent towards the stage while Meta gets sent further away from it. So, if anyone is going to die from the clash, it's Metaknight.

ZSS can actually edgeguard Meta better than he can edgeguard her, especially with his Up-B taken away. I tend to be very aggressive with off the stage edgeguarding in general, while I hardly see any other ZSS mains do this. I use forward B a lot for this, and I even hit people with it while they're in the hourglass. This works against most characters including Metaknight.

When Metaknight recovers to the stage with his Shuttle loop and glide attack I do the following. Usually he'll Up-B from under the stage so I've learned to stay away from trying to D-Smash - B-air stage spike him like that.
Instead I'll shield when I expect the Up-B, then when he gets close with his glide (and he's going to glide attack)I usually short hop backwards and forward B him.

Metknights D-Smash out of their shield a lot, especially when you're behind them at higher percentages. Try to anticipate these and counterattack. What I normally do is shield the D-Smash and short hop out of shield and go for a B-air on the other side of him.

ZSS' Down B is perfect for getting out of Meta's combos in general. I don't mean to do the attack part, just the inital down B which will get rid of hitstun quickly, give you invincibility, and give you space to break out. An evasive ZSS is very hard for Metaknight to both combo and KO. I discovered against Metaknight very recently is that ZSS can simply down B special footstool right over Metaknight's tornado instantly without being hit.
- Snakeee, and Xzax

1st Look 50/50
2nd Look 55/45 Meta

5.

1. Mr. Game and Watch beats you off stage. You gotta camp and you cant you tornados against some players because he can up b you out of your tornado, so use it carefully. A lot of his aerials have more priority than your moves. His smashes(yes all of them) can kill you easily, try to ground tech when he downthrows you. Don't use your up b against him in the air because his dair has more priority. This is a pretty hard match up unless you know exactly what to do. EDIT: GAME AND WATCH CAN UP B YOU OUT OF YOUR TORNADO, SHUTTLE LOOP, AND DRILL RUSH, IT IS NOT SAFE TO RECOVER AGAINST GAME AND WATCH IF THEY KNOW WHAT THERE DOING. VEX KASRANI USED THIS TACTIC ON M2K AND 2 STOCKED HIM ON FD IN GRAND FINALS AT A PHILADELPHIA TOURNAMENT ON DEC 13TH.
-Xzax, Mew2King, Vex Kasrani
1st Look 50/50
2nd Look 57/43 MK Favor

6.
1.Some marths will play very defensively in the match up since meta's approach is really good. if you see him making a wall with SHFF fairs and dtilts then try to dash attack his 8 frames of lag from shff fair. if marth apporaches its usually either a SHFF fair or dtilt, sometimes dancing blade. if you get hit with a fair at low percents he will easily combo it to dancing blade for more %. he outranges you in the air every aerial his jab outranges meta's fair. grab releases : a new grab release tactic is grab release to tipper nair which will kill rather early . tornado defense methods: he can shield the whole thing and punish with a dsmash/fsmash/dancing blade. he can up b out of shield to hit you back out. he can up b out of shield to hit you back out and can also counter it. also if spaced right an fsmash will go through it as well as dancing blade. if caught in it marth CAN DI towards the corner and dolphin slash or counter. me and neo only just found this though and havent done too much with it yet. marths fsmash = metas dtilt range, metas dtilt and 3rd hit of ftilt just outrange marths dtilt. glide doesn't work a lot v.s experenced marths.
- Steel2nd

2. Try to ftilt a lot up until 100%. You also want to try to marth offstage, and go for a gimp, but don't play it stupid and get up b spiked [we all know how aggressive us meta's are ]. Dont try to dair camp since all of marths aerials out range all of your aerials. If the marth isn't very good at spacing, this is your chance to be gay with dsmash XD
- Xzax

1st Look 60/40 mk favor
2nd Look 65/35(at worst, v.s bad marths)


Contributers:
Xzax
Inui
Snakeee
Mew2King
Teh_Spammerer
Vex Kasrani



****PART 2- FRAME DATA ****



UPDATES:
12/13/08
- removed "duration" in favor of "IASA"
- grounded shuttle loop info completed
- minimum shield time added
- dash ending lag added
- dair autocancel point specified
- basic aerial shuttle loop info added

12/15/08
- advantage specified
- "OOS advantage" changed to "Shield drop advantage"


Key: (because these definitions aren't exactly set in stone)
IASA- "Interruptible as soon as". The first frame a move can be interrupted by another action.

cooldown- the frames after a move's hitbox has disappeared. The character can perform no actions until the move ends.

shield hit stun- the frames where both players are "frozen" when an attacks contacts a shield.

shield stun- the frames after shield hit stun. The attacker's attack animation continues while the defender is stuck in their shield.

shield advantage- the frame difference between the attacker's and defender's ability to perform another action after an attack has hit the defender's shield. The attacker can do anything, while the defender can do one of three things: grab, jump, or drop their shield. This is in the attacker's point of view, so a negative advantage means that the defender can perform and action first while a positive advantage means that the attacker can perform an action first.

shield drop advantage- The attacker's advantage after an oppenent has dropped their shield. (advantage - 7). I included this because this will usually be your opponent's best shot at punishing you if you space well.



Notes:
- as of right now hitboxes cannot be seen, so figuring out how long a hitbox is out is very difficult. I tested Metaknight's uair, dtilt, fsmash, and dsmash and got the same result: the hitbox is out for two frames. From that I assumed that similar moves follow the same pattern. I did test moves that obviously work differently (utilt for example) though. Grab's were assumed to be out for two frames because that is how they worked in melee.

- Cooldown and advantage are attempts to quantify how punishable a move is. It's important tho note that these measurements can be deceptive though, as they don't take into account other factors such and range and shield pushback. When I get around to it I think I'll leave notes under some moves to elaborate on how punishable they are.






NEUTRAL A
coming soon



DTILT

frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 hitbox out
5-15 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 3
IASA frame: 16
Cooldown: 11
Shield stun: 1
Shield advantage: -11
Shield drop advantage: -4



FTILT

frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 1st hit hitbox out
5-11
12-13 2nd hit hitbox out
13-20
21-22 3rd hit hitbox out
23-52 cooldown

frame summary:
duration: 52
1st hit on: 3
2nd hit on: 12
3rd hit on: 21
1st hit cooldown: 19
2nd hit cooldown: 30
3rd hit cooldown: 30
Shield stun: 1 for all hits

1st hit advantage:
Shield advantage: -19
Shield drop advantage: -11

2nd and 3rd hit advantage:
Shield advantage: -30
Shield drop advantage: -23

Hitstun first hit: 16 base of blade (-4 advantage), variable at tip*
Hitstun second hit: variable*

*what happens here is that the attack pops the character up a bit, and when they land they have 4 frames of landing lag. The advantage mk has here is dependent on how long they are in the air... which is determined by their current %, weight, and fall speed. This is really a project in and of itself, but from what I looked at the first hit of his ftilt can actually yield a + advantage when your oppenent is in mid-high %.



UTILT

frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-18 hitbox out
19-35 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 36
shield stun and advantage to come



FSMASH

frame breakdown:
1-23 startup
24-25 hitbox out
26-41 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame 24
IASA frame: 42
Cooldown: 17
Shield stun: 5
Advantage: -12
Shield drop advantage: -5



DSMASH

frame breakdown:
1-4 startup
5-6 hitbox out
7-9
10-11 hitbox out
12-34 cooldown

frame summary:
hits on frame 5 front and frame 10 back
IASA frame: 35
Cooldown front: 28
Cooldown back: 23
Shield stun front: 4
Shield stun back: 4
Shield advantage front: -25
Shield drop advantage front: -18
Shield advantage back: -20
Shield drop advantage back: -13



USMASH

frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-9 hitbox out
10-11
12-13 hitbox out
14-16
17-18 hitbox out
19-49 cooldown

frame summary:
1st hit on: 8
2nd hit on: 12
3rd hit on: 17
IASA frame: 50
All hits shield stun: 1
Cooldown: 31
Sheild advantage: -31
Shield drop advantage: -24



NAIR

frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 strong hitbox out
5-25 weak hitbox out
26-31 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 3
IASA frame: 32
Aerial cooldown: 6
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 25



FAIR

frame breakdown:
1-5 startup
6-7 hitbox out
8-9
10-11 hitbox out
12
13-14 hitbox out
15-39 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
1st hit on: 6
2nd hit on: 10
3rd hit on: 13
IASA frame: 40
Aerial cooldown: 25
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 21


BAIR

frame breakdown:
1-6 startup
7-8 hitbox out
9-12
13-14 hitbox out
15-19
20-21 hitbox out
22-45 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
1st hit on: 7
2nd hit on: 13
3rd hit on: 20
IASA frame: 46
Aerial cooldown: 24
Landing lag: 12
Autocancel on: 23



DAIR

frame breakdown:
1-3 startup
4-5 hitbox out
6-25 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
hits on frame: 4
IASA frame: 26
Aerial cooldown: 20
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 24


UAIR

frame breakdown:
1 startup
2-3 hitbox out
4-13 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on: 2
IASA frame: 14
Aerial cooldown: 10
Landing lag: 12
Autocancels on: 21



DASH ATTACK

frame breakdown:
1-4 startup
5-11 hitbox out
12-31 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 5
IASA frame: 32
Cooldown: 20



GRAB

frame breakdown:
1-5 startup
6-7 grab hitbox out
8-29 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 6
IASA frame: 30
Cooldown: 22



DASH GRAB

frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-9 hitbox out
10-39 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 40
Cooldown: 30



PIVOT GRAB

frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-9 hitbox out
10-34 cooldown

frame summary:
hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 35
cooldown: 24



MACH TORNADO

minimum time frame breakdown:
1-11 startup
12-58 hitbox out
59-87 cooldown (this is a grounded nado)

maximum time frame breakdown
1-11 startup
12-104 hitbox out

Cooldown: this is interesting. Cooldown will ALWAYS be 29 frames. Landing lag adjusts to this. So if your nado ends in midair and you free fall for 10 frames your landing lag will be 19 frames. The botched up landing is 30 frames.



GROUNDED SHUTTLE LOOP

frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
5-8 invincibility frames
8-13 strong hitbox out
14-21
22-31 weak hitbox out

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 32



AERIAL SHUTTLE LOOP

frame summary:
hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 38



DEFENSIVE MOVES:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3GOD
meta Knight:
Spot Dodge Lasts 25 Frames
Invincible Frames 2 – 20

Roll Backward Lasts 33 Frames
Invincible Frames 4 – 12

Roll Forward Lasts 23 Frames
Invincible Frames 5 – 12

Air Dodge Lasts 39 Frames
Invincible Frames 3 – 28


LEDGE OPTIONS


MISCELLANEOUS


GLIDE ATTACK
hits on frame: 5


SHORT HOP
1-4 jump startup
5-36 airtime
37-38 landing lag

Duration: 38 frames
Air time: 32 frames
Landing lag: 2 frames



SHFF
1-4 jump startup
5-30 airtime
31-34 landing lag

Duration: 34 frames
Air time: 26 frames
Landing lag: 4 frames


FULL HOP

FULL HOP

MINIMUM SHIELD TIME
14 frames (can perform an action on frame 15)

DASH ENDING LAG
19 frames (can perform an action on frame 20)

orginal thread : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205614


****PART 3- PERCENTS PER MOVE****


Ok I did this myself one day when I was bored XD. I did each move(s) 3 or 4 times for correct percents.

ftilt(1 hit)
2-3%

ftilt(2 hits)
5-7%

ftilt(all 3 hits)
11-12%

dtilt
4-5%

utilt
5-7%

fsmash(c stick)
12-15%

fsmash(charged)
16-20%

dsmash(c stick)
10-11%

dsmash(charged)
13-17%

usmash(c stick)
5-8%

usmash(charged)
9-11%

tornado(full)
13-15%

tornado(regular)
7-10%

drill rush
7-9%

down b
12-14%

bair
3-8%

fair
8-10%

dair
5-7%

uair
4-6%

shuttle loop(ground)
7-10%

shuttle loop(air)
9-11%

down throw
10-12%

up throw
8-11%

back throw
9-11%

foward throw
8-10%


****PART 4- GOOD STAGES/BAD STAGES****

GOOD STAGES:
1. Battlefield
2. Delfino Plaza
3. Battleship Halberd
4. Smashville
5. Lylat Cruise
6. Rainbow Cruise
7. Luigi's Masion(if legal)


BAD STAGES:
1. Final Destination
2. Corneria(if legal)
3. Pokemon Stadium 1


This is a start there will be other additions later.

 

[hdrevolution123]

Thank you for providing all this data.

 

[Buuman]

Useful thread. Nice work ^^

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Add this please (Kirby vs MK):

Asdioh, assuming you main Kirby:

You have a good match-up against MK. It's funny because Kirby is also a character that doesn't have many weaknesses: he's small, hard to hit, has a quick grab with crazy grab range, one of the best f-smashes in the game, a b-air that goes through almost all of MK's moves, a nice 0% - 35%+ combo, great recovery, and very useful tilts.

Here's what you do.
1.) Perfect the timing for nailing f-smashes or grabs on MK's that air dodge toward the ground from the air. The only thing MK can do against Kirby when he's above him is spaced d-airs; besides that, he's completely vulnerable. When an MK is trying to attack from above, just shield and respond with an up-tilt or a quick b-air.

2.) Once MK's stop trying to attack from above, they'll realize they have a better chance coming at you face to face. However, since MK is always in the air (or can be knocked in the air), it's good for you always position yourself under MK by running under him and trying to stay under him. The reason for this is because when MK -really- wants to land to get his ground game going, the most habitual tactic is to air dodge to the ground. As said before well-timed f-smashes and grabs will get you either an early kill, or a grab that will put MK back into the air to repeat the process.

3.) Speaking of grabs, always f-throw at 0%. At low %'s, do d-throw. If the MK doesn't DI correctly, you CAN combo this into an aerial.

4.) Space your b-airs. It's almost IMPOSSIBLE for a MK to break Kirby's WOP since he can immediately follow up his b-air with an up-tilt. If you space correctly and patiently, most MK's will switch to a style where they come dash in range and shield in order to make you whiff. If you can SEE this play style developing, be a step ahead and go in for a dash grab.

5.) Once they feel uncomfortable with the ground/shield game, MK's will then attempt to space their f-airs either defensively or offensively. If it's defensively, it's a WOP battle, but if its offensively... hooray! Your b-air goes through his f-air each time if you space it correctly.

6.) Edgeguard MK. Again, your b-air is awesome. It goes through his glide attack. If he tries to smarten up and tries to use tornado, have a f-smash prepped because guess what...? F-smash also goes through tornado. This is how you can get so many kills against MK because most of them won't be DI'ing correctly and/or expecting it.

Asidioh, I could go ON and ON and ON about this match-up. The most important thing I can tell you is that you're not losing to MK just because MK is a better character. You're mainly losing to MK because you're not thinking ahead enough steps in the future. Great players find patterns and habits before the end of the first stock. If you get better at this (mindgames), it will make your matches against MK infinitely easier. Guaranteed.

*To Everyone Else*
If I wanted to beat MK's without using MK, I would choose between Snake, Diddy, Olimar, Kirby, and Wario. I would also try to use MK ALOT so I could understand his pros and cons a little better.

 

[OverLade]

Vex WTF?

I really have trouble believing something like that.

Amazing.

 

[Gates]

A lot of this stuff has already been known, but thanks for putting it all in one place.

 

[Deoxys]

I need to see this Vex M2K match if a video exists. That said, your stages are terrible. Halberd's not great for MK, and PS1 isn't bad for MK, planking under the ledges virtually annihilates some characters...

And you don't even list Rainbow Cruise, Luigi's Mansion, and Skyworld....

 

[OverLade]

I need to see this Vex M2K match if a video exists. That said, your stages are terrible. Halberd's not great for MK, and PS1 isn't bad for MK, planking under the ledges virtually annihilates some characters...

And you don't even list Rainbow Cruise, Luigi's Mansion, and Skyworld....

PS1 is bad for MK in comparison to most stages, and Planking is banned in a lot of tournies.

But true for not listing Weegees and RBC. Skyworld is usually banned.

 

[Deoxys]

PS1 is bad for MK in comparison to most stages, and Planking is banned in a lot of tournies.

But true for not listing Weegees and RBC. Skyworld is usually banned.

Corneria is usually banned, yet it was listed. Also, tournaments in North Atlantic (read best) don't ban planking.

 

[Infinitysmash]

PS1 is bad for MK in comparison to most stages, and Planking is banned in a lot of tournies.

But true for not listing Weegees and RBC. Skyworld is usually banned.

PS1 is my favorite of the 5 neutrals. Metaknight is suited to adapt to the changes in the stage better than any other character and has plenty of places to play around with there.

That and I love that windmill <3

 

[OverLade]

PS1 is my favorite of the 5 neutrals. Metaknight is suited to adapt to the changes in the stage better than any other character and has plenty of places to play around with there.

That and I love that windmill <3

PS1 isnt a neutral in Florida lol. Characters that camp, or beat MK vertically are annoying here though. You can't dair camp very well, and they can use the uneven ground against you. I personally like simple stages, and the changing stuff hurts you if you dont adapt as well as your opponent I guess.

I adapt to playstyles, but not stages.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Vex WTF?

I really have trouble believing something like that.

Amazing.

Don't believe it then, its your choice. He still won the set 3-1

 

[OverLade]

Don't believe it then, its your choice. He still won the set 3-1

I believe it lol, trust me.

But its not every day M2K gets 2 stocked. That's happened like....twice, Snakeee and NL.

 

[Infinitysmash]

PS1 isnt a neutral in Florida lol. Characters that camp, or beat MK vertically are annoying here though. You can't dair camp very well, and they can use the uneven ground against you. I personally like simple stages, and the changing stuff hurts you if you dont adapt as well as your opponent I guess.

I adapt to playstyles, but not stages.

It is in Texas, where the good players are at xD </trashtalking>

You have to adapt to everything around you dude, and if you can't adapt to both playstyles and changes then I'd recommend investing some time into stage research. Knowing a stage better than your opponent is probably one of the most valuable things in this game dude.

 

[Blad01]

It seems that Falco is pretty underated as a "match-up to know" for MK mainers :o If Planking is banned of course

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Corneria is usually banned, yet it was listed.

It goes both ways for corneria, however skyworld is very rarely legal because its extremely unbalanced and broken.

 

[CaliburChamp]

It goes both ways for corneria, however skyworld is very rarely legal because its extremely unbalanced and broken.

I actually like Skyworld. You can buffer attacks whenever you break the ground beneath you.

Example, MK's downsmash hits the floor, the floor cracks, you hit the floor again with downsmash, as soon as it breaks, you can immediately do another attack. You can do so many useful stuff on that stage. I learned to like it. And its a good MK stage if you know how to control the field.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I actually like Skyworld. You can buffer attacks whenever you break the ground beneath you.

Example, MK's downsmash hits the floor, the floor cracks, you hit the floor again with downsmash, as soon as it breaks, you can immediately do another attack. You can do so many useful stuff on that stage. I learned to like it. And its a good MK stage if you know how to control the field.

one of the reasons why it is banned.

 

[OverLade]

It is in Texas, where the good players are at xD </trashtalking>

You have to adapt to everything around you dude, and if you can't adapt to both playstyles and changes then I'd recommend investing some time into stage research. Knowing a stage better than your opponent is probably one of the most valuable things in this game dude.

I can agree with that. The problem is mostly my training partner (my brother) doesn't really like playing on CPs. This is bad because I dont get experience on stages that could give me a huge advantage. I play on them whenever I have any other friends over though, but Im still likely to get ***** on brinstar in MK dittos etc...

And out of respect I sorta don't like taking my opponent to gay stages, just for the sake of keeping the game strictly skill based. Obviously in a tournament I need to do what I have to, to win, but if I dont need to go Rainbowcruise I wont.

Anyway, you're right and I should probably look more into more extreme counterpicks and get used to them.

 

[Deoxys]

It goes both ways for corneria, however skyworld is very rarely legal because its extremely unbalanced and broken.

You're wrong. Please PM me and tell me what makes it broken. Also, please refrain from double posting help me stop hallucinating. O_O

On a related note, banning Luigi's Mansion is utterly ********.

Also, please fix the OP to mention that Dsmash does "only" 11% uncharged in the front.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Also, please refrain from double posting.

I didn't double post?

Tethers for one, get ***** very very badly on this stage. Skyworld is obviousily more broken then alot of stages, but having me PM you the reasons feels dumb because you should know the reasons(not bashing you)

 

[Deoxys]

I didn't double post?

Tethers for one, get ***** very very badly on this stage. Skyworld is obviousily more broken then alot of stages, but having me PM you the reasons feels dumb because you should know the reasons(not bashing you)

I don't know the reasons because there aren't any. A player of your calibur should know this.

Seriously. "OMG a CoI that I can break apart so it isn't really a CoI! SO BROKEN!" "Oh noes, my Ivysaur sucks there! It has to be banned because it's a really good counterpick against my main!"

Certain characters getting ***** by the stage is stupid to bring up in a discussion of whether or not the stage should be legal. "Does anyone do really bad here?" is not a question the SBR ponders when voting on stage legality, and nor should it ever be.

IDK why I could have sworn you double posted.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I don't know the reasons because there aren't any. A player of your calibur should know this.

Seriously. "OMG a CoI that I can break apart so it isn't really a CoI! SO BROKEN!" "Oh noes, my Ivysaur sucks there! It has to be banned because it's a really good counterpick against my main!"

Certain characters getting ***** by the stage is stupid to bring up in a discussion of whether or not the stage should be legal. "Does anyone do really bad here?" is not a question the SBR ponders when voting on stage legality, and nor should it ever be.

IDK why I could have sworn you double posted.

So by this logic, Bridge of Eldin should be legal? What about Distant Planet.

 

[Deoxys]

So by this logic, Bridge of Eldin should be legal? What about Distant Planet.

No, for one, bridge of eldin takes too long to complete. Also there are times where there is a walkoff in both directions, which means a CG = death. It makes certain matchups on that stage 100-0 and removes most of the skill from the game, which is broken. Skyworld does not do this. A 90/10 matchup for MK on RC doesn't mean RC should be banned. If it were 100-0 (especially against the majority of the cast!), this would be different.

Distant Planet should be legal. If you approach a CGer from the left and they're on the slope, you're stupid and deserve the stock you're losing.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

u deserve to be walked off on distant planet if it actually happens lol

 

[Deoxys]

u deserve to be walked off on distant planet if it actually happens lol

And he beats me to my edit.

 

[8AngeL8]

Stages get banned because of how they make the match more about the stage than the fight. There are so many stupid ways to die on Skyworld, it should absolutely be banned.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

lol skyworld wont ever be banned if people actually take a minute and think the stage over lol

 

[Master Xanthan]

Looks like a good thread.

 

[Steel]

If anyone wants more details on the Marth match up see the first part of this thread : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186736 which will link you to more threads. Some of it is outdated though.

 

[OverLade]

I didn't double post?

Tethers for one, get ***** very very badly on this stage. Skyworld is obviousily more broken then alot of stages, but having me PM you the reasons feels dumb because you should know the reasons(not bashing you)

Why should Skyworld be legal? Its just a bad stage to begin with. Forget the advantages it gives to certain chars.

 

[Crizthakidd]

halberd is a bad stage imo

 

[Deoxys]

Stages get banned because of how they make the match more about the stage than the fight. There are so many stupid ways to die on Skyworld, it should absolutely be banned.

Name one stupid way to die on Skyworld. Seriously, please do. If Skyworld is more about the stage than the fight, you're not playing on it well. It should detract from the fight no more than Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Norfair, Distant Planet, or Delfino do.

Why should Skyworld be legal? Its just a bad stage to begin with. Forget the advantages it gives to certain chars.

Great reasoning... <_< Why shouldn't Skyworld be legal? (see, this is why I wanted to discuss it in PMs)

halberd is a bad stage imo

OH SNAP!