FGC analogies

[ShroudedOne]

Gaming communities are terrible. I'm kind of disappointed.

 

[Lovage]

soembody gets it

 

[C.SDK]

ok lotta posts

stabbed I'm gonna level with you fencing is ****ing really expensive, one of the more expensive sports. The equipment constantly breaks and is a pain in the ***. THAT SAID, if you can actually play the sport it's ****ing sick. Just great. prolly foil for most falco-like, precise, technical, good? IDK it's hard to do character comparisons. Maybe epee is more "technical."

As for 64--

obviously a very very (I would say brokenly) defensive game with hyrule allowed. But japan/much of south america has that banned, and north america/europe is leaning that way as well (most--not all but most--of the good/smart players are very anti-hyrule. But isai + conservative about rulesets = not there yet).

The claim that "only one person plays 64" is silly. Isai's the best, dominant on a level that's rarely seen in any competitive game, but other people make discoveries, advancements, and even challenge him (Gerson the Peruvian pika, for example, took 8 of 21 recorded games).

s2j should know what he's talking about, but I'm not sure he does. He was OK in like '08, and a lot of people were (kinda still are) bad at 64 so he prolly beat some people, but saying that it's about "knowing how to usmash and uair" is ****ing stupid, and he should know that; I think he must be trolling (dead serious). Yeah, falcon has a lot of guaranteed kills, but saying that there's nothing more than usmashing is dumb. You still have to, you know, get the spacing and stuff to land the hit, that's smash 101. Don't get hit is in full force, but it's not like falcon doesn't have guaranteed kills out of grab on a bunch of the cast at 60% in melee; falcon peach is still more than just "knowing how to downthrow." Furthermore, while their are a lot of guaranteed kills it's never close to 100%, usually more like 50, going up to maybe 70 if you have a great grasp of all the little intricacies of chasing DI and choosing the right option on your combo tree given stage, etc.

A person like strong bad sees 64 and either says "oh this is an ultimately defensive game" because it's on hyrule or because that particular player is more hungrybox than mango (we have both at very high levels) or "oh this game is really simple, isai just always wins because he's better at uairing than other people" which is ridiculous. MDZ's little decision-explaining video could be replicated for isai by someone smarter, better at 64, and more articulate than me in crazy detail, but take a look at Isai's "guide to intermediate rat dittos" which is related in his signature curt, overly simplistic style, but is actually a collection of pearls of (fairly) complicated wisdom. It's still simple enough to be accessible, though.

For example, when he says things like "the rat underneath has the advantage," he's communicating a fairly complex idea about the nature of pikachu's uair hitbox in the ditto. Combined with the video example, you realize that there's a very hard-to-articulate and complicated method behind spacing pika uairs, one that's both amazing fun to learn and difficult to master.

Falcon vs someone heavy like Fox etc.
Somewhere in the middle of Dreamland (doesn't really matter)
0%
F-grab -> SH d-air -> grab -> u-air -> u-air (at this point you're off the stage) -> d-air.

Guaranteed KILL with almost zero effort on your part. 64 is a great game, huh?

 

[_Rocky_]

Falcon vs someone heavy like Fox etc.
Somewhere in the middle of Dreamland (doesn't really matter)
0%
F-grab -> SH d-air -> grab -> u-air -> u-air (at this point you're off the stage) -> d-air.

Guaranteed KILL with almost zero effort on your part. 64 is a great game, huh?

OMG i thought of that as a Melee combo and was like duuuuuuuuuuuude

But yeah as a mediocre 64 player (got top 16 in singles last apex fwiw) the game is a joke when it comes to execution which means that making comebacks etc is mad easy

BUT at the same time whenever you make a mistake or get read you more or less lose a stock unless it's like a pika vs kirby campfest XD

 

[Mahie]

Falcon vs someone heavy like Fox etc.
Somewhere in the middle of Dreamland (doesn't really matter)
0%
F-grab -> SH d-air -> grab -> u-air -> u-air (at this point you're off the stage) -> d-air.

Guaranteed KILL with almost zero effort on your part. 64 is a great game, huh?

I challenge you to pull that on me. There's something called SDI you know.

 

[Biz_R_0]

I'm just gonna quote mine:

64 is Counter Strike
Melee is TFC
Brawl is TF2 (pre 2012 when it was good)

 

[King Funk]

Falcon vs someone heavy like Fox etc.
Somewhere in the middle of Dreamland (doesn't really matter)
0%
F-grab -> SH d-air -> grab -> u-air -> u-air (at this point you're off the stage) -> d-air.

Guaranteed KILL with almost zero effort on your part. 64 is a great game, huh?

SH dair? Ugh that sounds like a really ugly and unrefined combo. Makes me wanna puke.

 

[The Star King]

Falcon vs someone heavy like Fox etc.
Somewhere in the middle of Dreamland (doesn't really matter)
0%
F-grab -> SH d-air -> grab -> u-air -> u-air (at this point you're off the stage) -> d-air.

Guaranteed KILL with almost zero effort on your part. 64 is a great game, huh?

I can come up with easy and rewarding stuff in Melee, like Sheik CGs on Ganon or something. It doesn't mean the game is easy as a whole, and it doesn't mean the game is bad.

I also like people keep using the easiest character in the game as the example to generalize about the game as a whole.

Also sorry to make this personal but you're the most fraudulent person alive. You keep *****ing about Smash 64 and keep saying how you're gonna leave, and you have repeatedly returned to kaillera anyways. There's a reason why literally almost nobody in the community likes you.

For the millionth time, if 64 is easy/not deep, the large range of skill would not exist. Isai and Boomfan being so far above everyone else in North America suggests that in the game, there is a lot to learn and a lot to improve on. If it's so easy then get on their level please.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I am so, so disappointed in this thread.

Thank **** for Star King interjecting some rationale into the circle jerk.

 

[t3h Icy]

Also sorry to make this personal but you're the most fraudulent person alive. You keep *****ing about Smash 64 and keep saying how you're gonna leave, and you have repeatedly returned to kaillera anyways. There's a reason why literally almost nobody in the community likes you.

For the millionth time, if 64 is easy/not deep, the large range of skill would not exist. Isai and Boomfan being so far above everyone else in North America suggests that in the game, there is a lot to learn and a lot to improve on. If it's so easy then get on their level please.

Awesome quote from a different forum (not me):

Not that I ever knew you personally or anything, but I've had it up to here with that one user on various forums who is always overly self-conscious and insecure about their reputation, acting as though if one or two people don't like them then everybody hates them and they don't belong. These types of people are kinda missing the point of a forum and community.

Oddly enough, it's also these people who like to request name changes a lot and also make goodbye posts despite usually just coming back anyway.

If you want to leave, leave. No reason to have your account deleted. You don't need a psychological divorce to leave. Grow up.

Pretty related to "Near" I'd say.

 

[The Star King]

Awesome quote from a different forum (not me):

Not that I ever knew you personally or anything, but I've had it up to here with that one user on various forums who is always overly self-conscious and insecure about their reputation, acting as though if one or two people don't like them then everybody hates them and they don't belong. These types of people are kinda missing the point of a forum and community.

Oddly enough, it's also these people who like to request name changes a lot and also make goodbye posts despite usually just coming back anyway.

If you want to leave, leave. No reason to have your account deleted. You don't need a psychological divorce to leave. Grow up.

Pretty related to "Near" I'd say.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOL. For Near, this is accurate to the point of being creepy. Down to the name changes and goodbye posts. That post is pure gold.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Melee is Halo 2
Brawl is Halo 3

 

[leffen]

64s worst problems that you guys neglect is that its the controls are easily the worst of ANY game that is still played competitively and its horrible framerate

Also, anyone who claims that 64 is a GOOD competitive game is nuts. I'd like to see this game have a REAL scene (with money etc on the line) and not derail into a terrible game.

Oh and brawl is 10 times better than 64 competitively, altho it is arguably less fun.



Edit: for those who say that "derp isai is better so game has depth" stfu. Armada/Dev win the majority of their Mario Party 5 games because they are much more skilled in it, that does NOT qualify it as a good competitive game.

 

[King Funk]

64s worst problems that you guys neglect is that its the controls are easily the worst of ANY game that is still played competitively and its horrible framerate

Also, anyone who claims that 64 is a GOOD competitive game is nuts. I'd like to see this game have a REAL scene (with money etc on the line) and not derail into a terrible game.

Oh and brawl is 10 times better than 64 competitively, altho it is arguably less fun.



Edit: for those who say that "derp isai is better so game has depth" stfu. Armada/Dev win the majority of their Mario Party 5 games because they are much more skilled in it, that does NOT qualify it as a good competitive game.

Um, the framerate is either due to you playing the virtual console or the PAL version. That normally shouldn't be a problem. Controls are very dependent on controller quality, which do have a tendency to get bad real quick.

The game itself isn't all that bad competitively. It's just a very simple game that puts a lot of focus into the most fundamental aspects of Smash. There is a lot of really cheap stuff but there are many fighting games that have equal amounts or more dumb stuff. Hyrule is a horrible stage that should have been removed long ago but I've discussed that far too many times with Smashboards idiots and I don't feel like debating that anymore. A game not having money on the line doesn't make it bad. Smash 64 is just dead. At least the offline scene is, aside from rare events like Apex and the Japanese National tournament. Online goes on as usual but not much is happening.

If you want me to do an analogy (and I hate doing them), Smash 64 is similar to SSF2T. It's a really simple, cheap and harsh game that still has a small online community.

 

[The Star King]

Ugh. I'm glad King Funk is attempting to defend 64 but the way he does so really grinds my gears.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

So do so in a way that you feel would be the best.

 

[Lovage]

64 is pretty crummy overalll but a fun intro to smash

i wouldn't dissuade anyone from trying to learn it

but i WOULD compare it to ****ty anime fighters that nobody cares about

 

[C.SDK]

I challenge you to pull that on me. There's something called SDI you know.

If you DI behind me on the d-air, I can still re-grab. People have done it and they still can't escape. You have macro DI if you can DI out of Falcon's u-airs, though.

SH dair? Ugh that sounds like a really ugly and unrefined combo. Makes me wanna puke.

It's what you do if you want to win. Guaranteed kill every single time.

I can come up with easy and rewarding stuff in Melee, like Sheik CGs on Ganon or something. It doesn't mean the game is easy as a whole, and it doesn't mean the game is bad.

Except in 64, you can pull off this crap with every single character in the game because the game's mechanics ALLOW it. I'm pretty sure you can find "cheap" things in every single game but the abundance of it in 64 is just dumb. That's verging scrub talk, but it is what it is.

Also sorry to make this personal but you're the most fraudulent person alive. You keep *****ing about Smash 64 and keep saying how you're gonna leave, and you have repeatedly returned to kaillera anyways. There's a reason why literally almost nobody in the community likes you.

I don't think I've said I was leaving in a long, long time. Also, what community? You mean the 10 regulars on Kaillera? LOOL. I occassionally rag on this game so I'm guilty of that.

For the millionth time, if 64 is easy/not deep, the large range of skill would not exist. Isai and Boomfan being so far above everyone else in North America suggests that in the game, there is a lot to learn and a lot to improve on. If it's so easy then get on their level please.

I've beaten both Boomfan and malva online a few times. Honestly, 64 is probably the only game where I feel like I don't deserve my wins most of the time. If malva/Isai and Boomfan's skill gap is so high, why was I able to beat them those few times? I already see arguments that console and online are different but screw that. Malva/Isai and Boomfan still poop on every single "online" player and I don't think there's much difference between online and console if you're playing on low frames (which I had like 1 frame with malva/Isai). I didn't deserve those wins, but I somehow GOT THEM.

 

[t3h Icy]

I guess every game needs their Leffen.

 

[King Funk]

I've beaten both Boomfan and malva online a few times. Honestly, 64 is probably the only game where I feel like I don't deserve my wins most of the time. If malva/Isai and Boomfan's skill gap is so high, why was I able to beat them those few times? I already see arguments that console and online are different but screw that. Malva/Isai and Boomfan still poop on every single "online" player and I don't think there's much difference between online and console if you're playing on low frames (which I had like 1 frame with malva/Isai). I didn't deserve those wins, but I somehow GOT THEM.

You were able to beat them those few times because it doesn't take a lot to lose a round in Smash 64. That's just how the game is. If you play SSF2T, you might win one or two rounds vs some of the best players randomly, because health is insanely low in that game. And it's the same in the other Street Fighter games to a lesser extent. In SSF4:AE you might hit your opponent with a lucky ultra and win a round, no matter how good he is. In Marvel, if you play Zero, can lightning loop and have solid incoming mixups, you can beat ANY player by just touching the opponent once.

All those things don't necessarily make those games bad, it's just that upsets are much more likely to happen. Smash 64 plays the most like a traditional fighting game while Melee generally features long matches (3-7 minute matches) and punishment varies heavily between very weak to decent (in the worst case scenario you lose a stock... out of four). All it means is that the better player always wins in Melee because you have to outplay your opponent many more times than you would need to in Smash 64 and a lot of traditional fighting games.

The way I see it, many of you guys are spoiled by Melee. But you gotta understand that not everyone has grown with that game or the ethic that fighting games should give you 20-30 chances instead of 5. Whether one model is better than the other is all up to opinion, but there's no reason to bash other games just because they don't follow your favorite model.

Many Melee players hate Brawl because there's even less punishment than in Melee. But remember than many people from other FG backgrounds who pick up Melee might hate it for the same reason people hate Brawl. They'd say it's too slippery and would dislike the lack of guaranteed punishment for mistakes. While it's true you can become godlike in Melee and basically kill anyone in one touch with good techchasing and DI-chasing, it takes an absurd amount of time and it's only rewarding in the long run (and as I said, at best you'll take 1/4 stocks).

While it's true it's annoying when you get random'd out in a game (AE or Marvel), you gotta admit that upsets bring good amounts of hype to a community. And hype is what drives a community.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

as a melee bowser and brawl ganondorf player, i'm much more used to having 5 chances instead of 30.

but i love the challenge so i don't mind getting punished for my mistakes.

also i've only ever seen one instance of a 7 minute melee match lol

 

[C.SDK]

You were able to beat them those few times because it doesn't take a lot to lose a round in Smash 64.

Aaaand that's why I don't like playing this game that much. I started out with 64 so I'm not some random that got spoiled with Melee like you say. I used to defend 64 and believed 64 was better than Melee. I personally believe it's the other way around now. Don't get me wrong, 64 is a fun game and is probably one of my favorites. It's just that if you play this game competitively, it gets dumb unless it's Samus vs Link or something. And even then, I can still deal with the annoyances that this game has and I'll still play it, but what Star King doesn't realize is that my area is kind of lackluster in Melee so I hop on 64 from time to time because I still like 64 but not as much. I'm actually good at the darn thing as opposed to Melee where I genuinely like the game, but I'm a n00b at it. That's pretty much what I enjoy from 64 competitively nowadays – I'm good at it. Criticizing 64 =/= don't like 64

Also, 64 online is pretty convenient.

64 as a game = good
64 as a competitive game = ehh


All of the preceding has been my OPINION.

EDIT: Also, a big factor is that the 64 scene is depressing. Console scene? Almost nonexistent. Online? It's way smaller than it used to be. I'd put up with 64 if I had players to play with but unfortunately, it doesn't. Kaillera still sucks and we're still using an emulator from 2003 that has netplay poorly implemented on it.

 

[Lovage]

^ what an attention-seeking doomsayer



at least console 64 actually has a community now through apex, that's a huge step for their scene

 

[C.SDK]

Oh. Yeah, no doubt. Apex is doing some good for the 64 scene. I'm not denying that. I'm actually looking forward to watching that on the stream.

We'll see if Apex 2013 garners more attention towards 64.

 

[Vkrm]

I like both 64 and melee. Both are pretty speedy and mentally engaging. Can't stand brawl. I do wanna ask though, is the fact that 64 can be played online have anything to do with it's renewed scene. Basically, would you guys still play it if it required travel like melee? Don't mean to offend, just actually curious.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

i think it would be more lively in the usa if that was the case. maybe not in other countries though because travel is pretty expensive there (oil is really expensive in other countries).

 

[The Star King]

Morino literally nobody ever cares that you took a few games out of a thousand from Boomfan/Malva

And probably Pikachu vs Samus or something like that too

You said it yourself: "Malva/Isai and Boomfan still poop on every single online player". Taking a few games here and there can happen in any game ever. It's not like the top Melee players never drop games to players of a lower skill level...

@vkrm I personally would have never started playing 64 if online didn't exist. IDK about the community as a whole though.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Is this usually how your discussions involving other games go? Usually us Brawl guys are pretty tame.

 

[RFrizzle]

**** off bizzaro I will slaughter your family like pigs I swear on my family's honor

 

[C.SDK]

<____<

You missed the point I was trying to make when I mentioned those wins.

You can argue that they dropped games to me but imo, I think it's stupid I was able to beat them whether they dropped games or not. I'm sure as hell I can't do something of that caliber in Melee. I'm pretty sure Mango doesn't drop games in this sort of magnitude. I think 64, as a game, was the culprit. In that sense, I had an easier time beating them because of how 64 works. King Funk said it himself and that's my whole beef with 64.

EDIT: Anyways, I'm done with this topic. If y'all see me playing 64 it's not because "lol I'm a hypocrite" but because I don't HATE the game. It's a fun game but I won't take competitive smash 64 as serious anymore. I don't have anything against the players either; just the game. No need to get personal, d00ds.

 

[Biz_R_0]

**** off bizzaro I will slaughter your family like pigs I swear on my family's honor

I disagree, but I respect your opinion.

 

[Battlecow]

good **** star king

I don't have time to go back and respond to all of you (jesus like 90 posts a day in here) but yeah 64 is a good game. In some matchups, at some percentages, on some parts of some stages you have guaranteed or near-guaranteed kills. That does not make it a bad game. Duh.

Near's posts give me cancer

lovage the game is pretty consistent yo. Kinda disappoint that you're stooping to "I beat X's link in a friendly (online no less) one time, therefore the game's broke." Oldest one in the book, and I'm sure it annoys good melee players as much as it does good 64 players. I mean there's some variance and in like falcon dittos the variance is pretty extreme, but from watching a lot of melee and 64 friendlies I'd say the percentage of games won by each of two players is about equal if the skills are equivalent between the 2 games.

KF I have no idea what you mean by "cheap" and I really wish you'd stop injecting your play-for-fun stuff into a discussion about how 64's a good competitive game

Leffen I can't tell you how glad I am that you feel the way you do about 64. If you'd liked it I'd have felt like I did after that one white supremacist group endorsed The Chronicles of Prydain. All dirty inside. You taking the opposite side makes me even surer about 64's value, and I mean that 100% sincerely.

As for this stuff about 64 being nonexistent on console, there are 80 guys attending apex, the vast majority of them being 64 only or mainly 64. japanese tourneys get 150. Lol.

 

[felipe_9595]

ok lotta posts

stabbed I'm gonna level with you fencing is ****ing really expensive, one of the more expensive sports. The equipment constantly breaks and is a pain in the ***. THAT SAID, if you can actually play the sport it's ****ing sick. Just great. prolly foil for most falco-like, precise, technical, good? IDK it's hard to do character comparisons. Maybe epee is more "technical."

As for 64--

obviously a very very (I would say brokenly) defensive game with hyrule allowed. But japan/much of south america has that banned, and north america/europe is leaning that way as well (most--not all but most--of the good/smart players are very anti-hyrule. But isai + conservative about rulesets = not there yet).

The claim that "only one person plays 64" is silly. Isai's the best, dominant on a level that's rarely seen in any competitive game, but other people make discoveries, advancements, and even challenge him (Gerson the Peruvian pika, for example, took 8 of 21 recorded games).

s2j should know what he's talking about, but I'm not sure he does. He was OK in like '08, and a lot of people were (kinda still are) bad at 64 so he prolly beat some people, but saying that it's about "knowing how to usmash and uair" is ****ing stupid, and he should know that; I think he must be trolling (dead serious). Yeah, falcon has a lot of guaranteed kills, but saying that there's nothing more than usmashing is dumb. You still have to, you know, get the spacing and stuff to land the hit, that's smash 101. Don't get hit is in full force, but it's not like falcon doesn't have guaranteed kills out of grab on a bunch of the cast at 60% in melee; falcon peach is still more than just "knowing how to downthrow." Furthermore, while their are a lot of guaranteed kills it's never close to 100%, usually more like 50, going up to maybe 70 if you have a great grasp of all the little intricacies of chasing DI and choosing the right option on your combo tree given stage, etc.

A person like strong bad sees 64 and either says "oh this is an ultimately defensive game" because it's on hyrule or because that particular player is more hungrybox than mango (we have both at very high levels) or "oh this game is really simple, isai just always wins because he's better at uairing than other people" which is ridiculous. MDZ's little decision-explaining video could be replicated for isai by someone smarter, better at 64, and more articulate than me in crazy detail, but take a look at Isai's "guide to intermediate rat dittos" which is related in his signature curt, overly simplistic style, but is actually a collection of pearls of (fairly) complicated wisdom. It's still simple enough to be accessible, though.

For example, when he says things like "the rat underneath has the advantage," he's communicating a fairly complex idea about the nature of pikachu's uair hitbox in the ditto. Combined with the video example, you realize that there's a very hard-to-articulate and complicated method behind spacing pika uairs, one that's both amazing fun to learn and difficult to master.

I love you Battlecow <3 (Also, for the record, Peruvian community isnt that great, they have some really good players, but nothing extraordinary)

Awesome quote from a different forum (not me):

Not that I ever knew you personally or anything, but I've had it up to here with that one user on various forums who is always overly self-conscious and insecure about their reputation, acting as though if one or two people don't like them then everybody hates them and they don't belong. These types of people are kinda missing the point of a forum and community.

Oddly enough, it's also these people who like to request name changes a lot and also make goodbye posts despite usually just coming back anyway.

If you want to leave, leave. No reason to have your account deleted. You don't need a psychological divorce to leave. Grow up.

Pretty related to "Near" I'd say.

Where did that post come from??? I wanna sig it, best thing i have read in ages.

If you DI behind me on the d-air, I can still re-grab. People have done it and they still can't escape. You have macro DI if you can DI out of Falcon's u-airs, though.

Ehhhhh nope, Di Up and back, you can jump out of that and even punish, heck, you can even di out of Fthrow > SH uair or Sh nair, even Sh Nair (cept on first hit)

And nope, have you heard of Quarter Circle DI? You can escape Falcon uair combos, depending on the situation and %.

 

[King Funk]

Oh I don't use Sirlin's definition of "cheap" as said by "Sirlin's scrub".

In the FGC, it is more used as a way to describe something really damn good and relatively easy to do. In fact it has a positive ring and connotation to it nowadays. A bit like how people casually call things "broken" when they are not broken in the more traditional of definitions. Sorry if I didn't make that clear in the first place.

And yes 64 is pretty much dead on console aside from yearly events in the USA (Apex) and Japan. For a game to be alive in my world it has to do a little more than that.

 

[The Star King]

I could type a lengthier response to that but honestly "lol you play Falcon" is enough

It might be easy to do optimal punishes with some characters (read: Falcon and Kirby). That doesn't mean the game is easy as a whole. That's just one aspect of the game (punishment - which is the least player vs player part of fighting games anyways) with just a portion of the cast.

 

[KrIsP!]

According to a few of the past posts,
64-melee
Melee-brawl
Brawl-poop

I liked it better when we made fun of marvel too.