Terrorcon Blot
Smash Journeyman
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My eyes rolled so fast that the inside of my head has skid marks.
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FAQ - The Why of Competitive Rules
- Thread starter Phyvo
- Start date
Hes trying to make the point that many competitive games are not played in the way that they were originally intended and Smash is no different.
How about actually addressing his post?
But home court/field advantage adds randomness to the event and the players may lose their concentration. It's unfair. amirite?
And if you can honestly say that refs are always fair... I think you need to watch more sports.
But the thing is, it's not randomness. You already expect these things as a possibility. If you expect it, how the hell could it be random? If you aren't good enough to realize that it's not always going to be 100% fair (nothing ever is), I don't know how you could say you're "skilled".
Also, to the people saying that it's not fair because it depends on luck....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=yPwvIrr_eDI
I guess they shouldn't count that shot because it was luck, right?
*facepalm*
Luck will always be a factor in competition of any kind, but why not try to reduce it as much as possible?!
What advantage do items provide that makes up for the random factor that they include?
What we're trying to say is that items disrupt the competitive environment more than they benefit it. They unpredictably reward players with advantages that they do not earn. This is not suitable for highly competitive play. That is all.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
First of all, how the hell can that shot even be remotely considered as luck. He shot the ball in the air and his teammate capitalized on it. There was no luck involved at all.
Second, you can't expect an exploding capsule to appear right in the middle of your attack. You can't expect a heart container to appear right next to your opponent after you've been hit off the other side of the stage. You have no way of knowing when an item will pop up, or where it will pop up, and thus it is random.
Third, isn't fairness something you should strive for? Isn't that the ultimate goal of a competative scene? To make a game where skill is the only factor that determines the outcome of a match. To make a game in which luck is not a factor that has to be delt with (because although it can be delt with, we'd much rather have it not be an issue in the first place.)
And last, we've already tested items in tournament play. We've tested them for years! The results were inconsistant and did not reflect who the best players were, which is the entire point of tournaments in the first place. That is why we banned items. We banned them because they didn't work.
Second, you can't expect an exploding capsule to appear right in the middle of your attack. You can't expect a heart container to appear right next to your opponent after you've been hit off the other side of the stage. You have no way of knowing when an item will pop up, or where it will pop up, and thus it is random.
Third, isn't fairness something you should strive for? Isn't that the ultimate goal of a competative scene? To make a game where skill is the only factor that determines the outcome of a match. To make a game in which luck is not a factor that has to be delt with (because although it can be delt with, we'd much rather have it not be an issue in the first place.)
And last, we've already tested items in tournament play. We've tested them for years! The results were inconsistant and did not reflect who the best players were, which is the entire point of tournaments in the first place. That is why we banned items. We banned them because they didn't work.
But if people are as good as they say they are can't they find a way to negate the items WITHOUT turning them off? If you can't, too bad. Live with it.
I stopped reading here because you obviously don't know what happened whatsoever. It was an attempted ally oop but the pass went in the basket.
Dantarion
Smash Champion
Well, if you can explain a way to remove home court advantage from sports, you might have some money on your hands. Right now, they do this thing called playing home and away games during the regular season and during the playoffs they have rules about where the games are played(at least, for basketball)
Refs TRY to be fair. That is their job.
At any point in time, you could die from something random. A plane could crash into you. The possibility is there. But there is no way for you to anticipate such a RANDOM event, therefore it is RANDOM, because you have no idea when or where it could happen, but you know that it could happen.
Nothing will be 100% fair. However, we try to get as close to 100% as possible.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
You didn't stop reading, you only said that so you wouldn't have to reply to my post because I was still right.
Although I was wrong about the video though. It looked like his teammate was the one that made the ball go in.
Timic83
Smash Ace
or hit with a punch from the other side of the screen
What about YYG?
What about YYG?
Maybe your just ******** or something but it seems you have no idea what your talking about. People COULD easily play with items on, and it would still be very high level skilled play. The problem is(and let me try and make this as clear as possible) ITS TOO RANDOM! What if you were playing basketball with someone, doesn't even have to be for money, just sort of playing. What if you were down by one and you had just shot the ball and it was golden, you know your about to score. But suddenly, a gun randomly appears in front of your opponent and he KILLS you. Seems fair right?
Sorry, that ended a little angry because I hate you, from a slightly less hateful perspective, what if something appeared randomly in front of him that allowed him to not only block the shot, but get the ball for himself on the opposite side of the court? Suddenly his lead has increased, despite you doing all the work and him just standing there? Now don't say "Well, just learn to deal with it" because, YOU DON'T HAVE TO. Even if there are the occasional random moments in competitive smash there's no reason to add MORE as it is competitive play, play on the highest level with the least amount of randomness. And if you think we're harsh with rules, you should go play in Japan where they ONLY play on FD and Dreamland 64.
Edit:
YYG is too sexy. No one would ban it because then you would never be able to bask in its amazing sexiness.or hit with a punch from the other side of the screen
What about YYG?
The thing is why should they bother to try to negate them?
Competitive players want to play the game at the highest possible level of competition. They have observed in actual tournament play that items are not conducive to high level competition. There's actually no good reason to bother with them in competitive play.
So why not turn them off? No one's forcing you to use them.
Honestly though, I can't see why you even care about this. If you use items, that's dandy. Why does it bother you that other people don't?
0RLY
A great conversation filler at bars and parties
Very, very nice! Kudos for taking time to make this. I especially like the edge guarding example. I hate how my friends complain how it's cheap. After all, the term "Edge Hog" is actually in the game and both players are capable of using it. Items however ruin edge guarding. Everytime I play with items, my friends always seems to find a random capsule on the ground and throw it at me while I'm bomb jumping back to the stage. Whenever I find my friend recovering from off the stage, guess what I get? A poison mushroom. Items involve way too much luck. I'd much rather be triple-bair'd off the stage by a skilled Doc than to have Pokeballs repeatedly thrown at my face. On the other hand, I'd rather be struck by a flying knee from a Bunny Hooded C.Falcon than a Fsmash by Marth.
Winston
Smash Master
Home court/field is hardly statistically significant.
It's also nowhere near close to the level of stupid obstacle that throwing random things on them are.
Would you honestly support random things falling on athletes in serious sports matches?
...
also, I'm sure most players who are decent at the game would agree that playing with items isn't even more fun.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
I haven't read any of the thread other than the first page and this page, so I apologize if this has already been brought up, but I was curious, as someone who has played competitively for a while now, but would still very much like to join in the tournament scene, what current competitive players have to say about this.
On the subject of edge hogging:
I, admittedly, am one of those people who does not edge hog out of honor, of sorts; my logic was that, as a Link player with three projectiles at my disposal, if I couldn't stop someone from recovering, even if it took me jumping off to intercept, then it was my own fault, and my punishment for my lack of skill was my opponent's second chance (that, as well as the fact that I really don't think there are many times that are more demoralizing than not making it back to the stage because you couldn't grab on, especially if you only needed 5 pixels of height to have landed on the stage itself anyways). I make sure to ask before any match I have, out of respect for the other player, his or her thoughts on edge hogging; if he/she is alright with it, then I sometimes allow myself to do it, but I still don't feel particularly good about winning that way, and I certainly won't edge hog against a player who doesn't condone it.
I understand fully that many competitive players feel this is foolish, but I have risen to such a skill level now that I don't need to edge hog against competitive players to win a match, which is something I'm proud of; this would not have happened if I resorted to using edge hogging to win matches. Of course, I digress.
Edge hogging, regardless of my personal feelings about the tactic, remained a legitimate tactic in Melee because, with the exception of Samus and Link, there was no other way to recover; you either grabbed the edge, or you landed on the stage, thus negating the edge hog anyway. Brawl, however, has characters (Zamus, Olimar, and Ivysaur come to mind) whose recoveries are balanced on, and rely soley on, grabbing the edge (their tether recoveries) and, unlike Samus and Link in Melee, have no other way to recover. Period. The closest any of these characters has to an 'alternate method of recovery' is Zamus' Side-B, but this only gives lateral movement, and tether recoveries, as is apparent by their animations, was expressly designed to gain vertical distance.
I would like to interject that I have indeed seen the videos of Olimar throwing Pikmin to thwart edge hogs; I feel, though, that this is inconsequential, as neither Zamus nor Ivysaur have such a method to save themselves, as well as the fact that Olimar must sacrifice the reach of his recovery to do so.
My question to the SWF community is: does the knowledge that edge hogging literally breaks the recoveries of these characters change the legitimacy of the tactic any? If it does, will that affect the use of edge hogging in future tournaments? If not, why does the undermining of their recoveries not matter?
Thank you.
On the subject of edge hogging:
I, admittedly, am one of those people who does not edge hog out of honor, of sorts; my logic was that, as a Link player with three projectiles at my disposal, if I couldn't stop someone from recovering, even if it took me jumping off to intercept, then it was my own fault, and my punishment for my lack of skill was my opponent's second chance (that, as well as the fact that I really don't think there are many times that are more demoralizing than not making it back to the stage because you couldn't grab on, especially if you only needed 5 pixels of height to have landed on the stage itself anyways). I make sure to ask before any match I have, out of respect for the other player, his or her thoughts on edge hogging; if he/she is alright with it, then I sometimes allow myself to do it, but I still don't feel particularly good about winning that way, and I certainly won't edge hog against a player who doesn't condone it.
I understand fully that many competitive players feel this is foolish, but I have risen to such a skill level now that I don't need to edge hog against competitive players to win a match, which is something I'm proud of; this would not have happened if I resorted to using edge hogging to win matches. Of course, I digress.
Edge hogging, regardless of my personal feelings about the tactic, remained a legitimate tactic in Melee because, with the exception of Samus and Link, there was no other way to recover; you either grabbed the edge, or you landed on the stage, thus negating the edge hog anyway. Brawl, however, has characters (Zamus, Olimar, and Ivysaur come to mind) whose recoveries are balanced on, and rely soley on, grabbing the edge (their tether recoveries) and, unlike Samus and Link in Melee, have no other way to recover. Period. The closest any of these characters has to an 'alternate method of recovery' is Zamus' Side-B, but this only gives lateral movement, and tether recoveries, as is apparent by their animations, was expressly designed to gain vertical distance.
I would like to interject that I have indeed seen the videos of Olimar throwing Pikmin to thwart edge hogs; I feel, though, that this is inconsequential, as neither Zamus nor Ivysaur have such a method to save themselves, as well as the fact that Olimar must sacrifice the reach of his recovery to do so.
My question to the SWF community is: does the knowledge that edge hogging literally breaks the recoveries of these characters change the legitimacy of the tactic any? If it does, will that affect the use of edge hogging in future tournaments? If not, why does the undermining of their recoveries not matter?
Thank you.
You do realize that Edge Hogging is literally the ENTIRE point of the game right? Smash has no life bars, as such, the game is literally a fighting version of King of the Hill where the entire point is to get your opponent off the stage and keep them there. The fact that you think you don't need Edge Hogging shows that you really aren't that skilled nor are you very knowledgeable about the game.
As for the tether recovery thing, that was sort of bad programing, but its not going to stop anyone from abusing it. If you pick up one of those characters knowing very well how easy it is to be edge hogged than you have no right to complain about it. If you don't want to fall victim to this, and its really that big of a deal to you, then just pick a different character.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
This is why I asked my question... because I'm not sure that statement is accurate at all. In all technicality, the point of the game is edge guarding; it's possible that edge hogging was just as much an oversight in design/programming as the current tether recovery problem is. For instance, some players I used to smash with toyed with the idea of being able to grab onto a currently edge hogging character's legs.
There have been balance/design/programming oversights that have been accounted for in tournament play; after all, that's part of the reason items are banned in many Melee tournaments. What I am essentially asking is if tournament players have thought about the current tether recovery oversight in the manner they thought about items. I know, it's still early to be making those kind of judgments, but I feel that because Brawl is not Melee 2.0, we need to be willing to ask ourselves these tough questions.
EDIT: I just thought about this, and I feel it needs clarification; I should have stated it in my original post. Even though many times I don't edge hog out of principle, I never force that convention on other people. In the same vein of logic I have for not doing it myself, I feel that if I can't get an extra couple of pixels in height/distance, then it is, again, my fault and mine alone, and my punishment is a lost stock. As I said, I ask my opponent if he/she condones edge hogging, but I never try to force any opponent into the same convention as mine.
I just thought that clarification was necessary.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
What?
So you play Link and you don't edge hog and you claim that you have "risen to such a skill level" that you don't need edge hogging? List some people that you have beaten in either a money match or a tournament.
These characters are still legit for tournaments. There are plenty of stages you can counter pick that don't have any ledges that are available in tournament play. Also, if we were to assume there is nothing you could do about it then we negate the possibility that perhaps there is something we can do to make up for it. It might be readily obvious, and it might even be glitchy, but if we simply ban an efficient strategy such as edge hogging we'd never find this out, and the community would be worse off for it.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
I don't mean that in a conceded manner; I'm simply stating that I have beaten competitive/tournament level players in the past without the use of edge hogging. And, as I had stated in my original post, I would like to get into the tournament scene; I have never been in a serious tournament before, which is why I want tournament player's opinions.
I apologize if I sounded conceded, as that was not my intention.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Ah, ok. You should have said that from the get go. Man, you don't even know HOW many people would say that kind of thing and assume they could take pros in the community. It hurts my brain when people think like that.
Anyways, I actually read the rest of your thread and responded accordingly with an edit.
Phyvo
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2007
- Messages
- 289
It isn't all bad for Zamus and Ivysaur. Zamus' down-B is a third jump that certainly does help if the opponent is trying to edge hog. Olimar is actually worse off than Zamus because he could be tossing pikmen during the hogger's invincibility frames, while Zamus's not only buys time but also distance. Ivysaur is perhaps the worst off of the three, except that PT is three characters, not just one, and so he's only vulnerable that way about a third of the time. PT can also control when Ivy is out to an extent, to try to time it for when his % is as low as possible.
So it's not like any one of those characters is completely helpless to the extent that I believe tournaments will ban edge hogging. At least, that what I think.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Believe me, I totally understand where you're coming from. The school I used to go to was literally right next door to NOA; naturally, we played a LOT of Smash. If anyone got a reality check on their supposed 'skill' at Melee, I was certainly one of them.
I also read your edit; I entirely agree with your assessment. After all, I can attest to it's validity, especially considering the only reason I know how to circumvent edge hogs is expressly because I was being edge hogged. Trial and error taught me what to do, and I couldn't have experienced that trial and error without being edge hogged in the first place.
I just worry because I hear a lot of people making very concrete-sounding decisions or assertions about Brawl this early on, and I wonder if the tournament scene will be malleable enough to make changes to its protocols in light of the differences between Brawl and Melee. Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, I've heard that a good portion of the reason items were disabled in a majority of tournaments, for instance, was simply because of exploding crates, barrels, and capsules. One of the changes from SSBM to SSBB is the ability to turn these off individually, but I still hear of people being very steadfast in denouncing all items. Sort of related, in that, like I said, what I really worry about keeping me from competing is simply the ability for tournaments to be malleable and varied from each other.
One of the big problems other than the exploding capsules is the "random" item spawns. I say "random" because the spawn points are actually set, but their is no way to know which spawn point an item will come from so there's no way to know who gets the benefit of the item. There's also the problem of which items to ban and which items not to ban. Some items are obviously broken(explosives, super spicy curry, invincibility, home run bat etc.) but then you have other items, like the Screw Attack. While not completely broken, its attack isn't that great, when thrown it removes all of your jumps. If thrown at you from off the stage, you lose the ability to recover. There's also the problem of slanted stages. When a barrel(and I think with the new crates on wheels you now have to worry about crates) hits a slant it rolls. A rolling barrel can damage you. Damage for being at the wrong place without any power to stop it is too random.
Also, a quick side note about edge hogging. If/when you begin playing on a high level, you'll quickly learn that you CAN'T win without edge hogging. The ledge was one of the most important things in Melee, and from the looks of Brawl, its only become MORE important.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
If I remember correctly, I was watching an items on Brawl video in which a rolling barrel didn't damage players; the change would make sense, especially considering the new physics engine which causes all containers (crates, barrels, crates-on-wheels, and capsules) to slide, roll, or move when on an even slightly slanted surface. But, I might be mistaken, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt with your assessment.
And, edge hogging is important when you're the one recovering... but if you kill your opponent off the boundaries, then recovering is a moot point (I got a lot of my kills off the top with Link's Up Aerial and Down Aerial, and his F-Smash is usually good enough to where the target dies before he/she regains control, at least, in my experience).
...but I get what you're saying.
EDIT: And now that I'm thinking about it, the new ease of sweet spotting the edge could be an argument for either side, really. On one hand, it could be argued that, because its easier, there is more emphasis on taking the edge first so that the sweet spotting cannot occur, but on the other hand, it could also be argued that the new sweet spotting was implemented, like the higher kill percentages, because Sakurai wanted people to recover more, which is undermined by edge hogging. I will admit, though, that it is a stretch to say that (and I don't like people arguing that they know what Sakurai or any of the development team's intentions were; it's very arrogant).
And, edge hogging is important when you're the one recovering... but if you kill your opponent off the boundaries, then recovering is a moot point (I got a lot of my kills off the top with Link's Up Aerial and Down Aerial, and his F-Smash is usually good enough to where the target dies before he/she regains control, at least, in my experience).
...but I get what you're saying.
EDIT: And now that I'm thinking about it, the new ease of sweet spotting the edge could be an argument for either side, really. On one hand, it could be argued that, because its easier, there is more emphasis on taking the edge first so that the sweet spotting cannot occur, but on the other hand, it could also be argued that the new sweet spotting was implemented, like the higher kill percentages, because Sakurai wanted people to recover more, which is undermined by edge hogging. I will admit, though, that it is a stretch to say that (and I don't like people arguing that they know what Sakurai or any of the development team's intentions were; it's very arrogant).
Your seven, aren't you?
I'm old enough to use the correct version of you're, which, obviously, you aren't.
Blackshadow
Smash Ace
Get out of here already Guest, you've already proved yourself too stupid to understand simple logical arguments.
Yet you obviously aren't old enough to understand the amazing flaws in your own logic.
You still have to prove that items are random. Wait, they aren't! That's right, because you know they're going to before. You can predict, and be correct, that they will be there.
ok, ok, I get it. I can't spell to save my life and as such, you are obviously the correct one here. I bow before your mighty spelling abilities and admit to the fact that proper grammar instantly equates to mental superiority.
A little bit slow on the irony intake, eh? If someone is going to call someone an idiot and make a mistake while doing it... well, you get the point.
You can't predict where they will spawn, when they will spawn, or which item specifically will spawn.
Yes, that part is random, but the items are not because you know they will be there.
However, I award you for actually trying to prove me wrong.
Blackshadow
Smash Ace
Proof of your idiocy.
You lose.
Look back through this thread, and address all the counter arguments that people have posed to you, then come back.
You lose.
Look back through this thread, and address all the counter arguments that people have posed to you, then come back.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Dang son, you beat me to it.
Blackshadow
Smash Ace
Well now you're just trolling. GG.guest said:
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Ugh.... A brilliant post once again ruined by useless bickering over something that really doesn't matter, just to prove one person is "better" than the other. Everyone relax.
OP: Great, great, thread. That's all I have to say.
OP: Great, great, thread. That's all I have to say.
For those arguing against items, at least realize that if items were used, Pokeballs, hearts, hammers, stars, bomb-oms, as so forth would be removed. And since exploding containers can be removed as well, having a random item appear during attack and killing you can no longer happen. Brawl has fixed items at the very least, and they should still be considered for tournament play. Items definitely add depth, but is there too much randomness to counteract it?