FAQ - The Why of Competitive Rules

[shadydentist]

In a game where the entire point is to get your opponent off the edge, I fail to see why edgeguarding is cheap..

 

[miller483]

Awesome thread. Let's just hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears. (Or blind eyes, whatever.)

 

[yoshi_fan]

Good posts make me happy. Great, thanks

Edit: after reading it, the only part where i don't agree with you i where

"But it doesn't give unfair advantage? (edgehogging)"

There is a better answer:

is a advantage like falco spamming lasers in front of you or samus spamming missiles. If you don't try to attack the edgehogger or jump over them, you are as stupid as someone who lets a falco spamlaser you.

I think that's a better answer. Sorry for my english.

Edgehog hmslf is half as cheap. Yeah it can get SOOO cheap, but i didn't see any player who uses it at his maximun cheapability.

so... is another technique.

Aniway, i think edgehog have to be (in brawl) banned or restricted a little more, because of the tether recoveries: you don't have any posibilities with a tether recoverer vs and egehogger, so it becomes actually cheap (you see, you can't do anything vs and edgehogger), but that's my opinion.

 

[DethToll]

This is an AWESOME thread. Someone sticky this pronto.

Nah, this is good enough to be a freaking announcement.

 

[Winston]

I like the thread.

I don't like how I basically posted the sports analogies in a concise manner earlier and expected people to be intelligent enough to see my points and the thread got spammed and died >__>

but, awesome thread.

 

[Ghettoman]

indeed, this should be stickied. i think this explains what many people have been trying to say on these boards for a long time. i hope this helps people understand things.

 

[guest]

I take it I'm the only one who doesn't like this thread. When you take items and certain stages out of a game, you're ruining it. Plain and simple. If these "professionals" are as great as they say they are, can't they find ways to avoid circumstances where it's "unfair" for them? It's just an excuse for people who don't want to use all of the stuff that makes it harder to play defense. And calling people who like using items and "unfair" stages casual players is a bit harsh. I'll be honest with you, I hated Melee but I love the first Super Smash Bros game. Items were a way of life. You have to plan out everything if you use items. When taking a certain aspect of the game, you're making it unfair to other people who have already considered that aspect.

tl;dr Tourney***s need to play the whole game and put every possible scenario in their gameplan instead of depending on rules that help your style of play.

 

[that 1 guy]

Guest a huge problem with items in melee was the exploding capsule, which there was no way to turn off if you had items on. It once spawned right in front of someone AFTER they started their move to KO their opponent. They hit it and died. Would you be OK with that happening to you with say $10,000 on the line?

 

[Pink Reaper]

I take it I'm the only one who doesn't like this thread. When you take items and certain stages out of a game, you're ruining it. Plain and simple. If these "professionals" are as great as they say they are, can't they find ways to avoid circumstances where it's "unfair" for them? It's just an excuse for people who don't want to use all of the stuff that makes it harder to play defense. And calling people who like using items and "unfair" stages casual players is a bit harsh. I'll be honest with you, I hated Melee but I love the first Super Smash Bros game. Items were a way of life. You have to plan out everything if you use items. When taking a certain aspect of the game, you're making it unfair to other people who have already considered that aspect.

tl;dr Tourney***s need to play the whole game and put every possible scenario in their gameplan instead of depending on rules that help your style of play.

Im going to beat you to death with a hammer. If you think its unfair your can just KILL YOURSELF.

tl;dr AN HERO NEW***

 

[Phyvo]

I take it I'm the only one who doesn't like this thread. When you take items and certain stages out of a game, you're ruining it. Plain and simple. If these "professionals" are as great as they say they are, can't they find ways to avoid circumstances where it's "unfair" for them?

For a long time there WERE tournaments with items. The players you're insulting KNOW all this stuff you're talking about, and many still remember the various item combos that exist in the game. And yet, even though they know exactly what item play at a competitive level is like, the whole competitive community decided that items were doing more harm than good. And they decided that the best thing to do was to turn items off.

Keep in mind what you don't actually know. You don't know what tournament play without items is like. Heck, you probably don't know what real tournament play WITH items is like. But many of these people you criticize know BOTH of these things, including the one you claim they don't know. And they thought that smash tournaments do better without items, so they banned them.

They've gone and done filled your criterion already for item testing, and their didn't turn out the way you wanted it. Sorry. but that's the way it is. If you want an item tournament you're going to have to look elsewhere.

ALL smash tournament rules have arisen from some sort of TRIAL AND ERROR. People made some educated guesses at the start, then worked out the kinks as they came up. Every stage that is banned is banned because of a kink that showed up, not because someone now said "OMG I hate this stage for no reason." And many stages are partially allowed because they're great stages, just not great to start off a match with because of their own quirks and balance issues.


---

Looks like I'll have to expand the FAQ a bit... wish I had more time.

 

[Misto-Roboto]

I take it I'm the only one who doesn't like this thread. When you take items and certain stages out of a game, you're ruining it. Plain and simple. If these "professionals" are as great as they say they are, can't they find ways to avoid circumstances where it's "unfair" for them? It's just an excuse for people who don't want to use all of the stuff that makes it harder to play defense. And calling people who like using items and "unfair" stages casual players is a bit harsh. I'll be honest with you, I hated Melee but I love the first Super Smash Bros game. Items were a way of life. You have to plan out everything if you use items. When taking a certain aspect of the game, you're making it unfair to other people who have already considered that aspect.

tl;dr Tourney***s need to play the whole game and put every possible scenario in their gameplan instead of depending on rules that help your style of play.

But see, the thing is, you're looking at it with a view of someone who enjoys the game as a whole and that is great. Items and many of the wacky stages are fun, but this randomness can be detrimental to the tournament, not the game. I could agree with you if you managed to make a point on how skill can be measured if a random outside factor is brought onto the stage. Though I would surmise that with exploding crates and capsules off that reacting to a specific situation in a battles which require the grabbing of an item could take as much skill as just like any exploits taken into account have some kind of counter, whether it be mid-air item grab, dodging, another item or attacking. It really depends on the item to make said debate. With Brawl I think items need to be given a chance to find a way to work if they can because that could add another meta-game into Smash.

 

[Winston]

I take it I'm the only one who doesn't like this thread. When you take items and certain stages out of a game, you're ruining it. Plain and simple. If these "professionals" are as great as they say they are, can't they find ways to avoid circumstances where it's "unfair" for them? It's just an excuse for people who don't want to use all of the stuff that makes it harder to play defense. And calling people who like using items and "unfair" stages casual players is a bit harsh. I'll be honest with you, I hated Melee but I love the first Super Smash Bros game. Items were a way of life. You have to plan out everything if you use items. When taking a certain aspect of the game, you're making it unfair to other people who have already considered that aspect.

tl;dr Tourney***s need to play the whole game and put every possible scenario in their gameplan instead of depending on rules that help your style of play.

if professional basketball or football or soccer players are as good as they are, why not have a device that randomly drops things on them? Since everyone has to avoid them, it's fair and it adds strategy, right?

...

because it makes the game stupid?

Also, even though you may think items add complexity in their way, they also remove a lot of the complexity of the full range of things a character can do without such distractions.

 

[Sasori's_Shadow]

First of all, great post/thread. With the influx of what seems to be a large number of casual smashers to this forum, I'm hoping this thread will help clarify a few questions that they may have regarding the competitive scene and maybe prevent a few ignorant threads here and there.

Oh, and while your analogy regarding why items/stages are banned does make perfect sense, I'd also like to add the specific advantages and luck factors items and some stages bring to matches. Like I said, all your analogies do make sense, though probably only if you understand the luck factors that you're referring to. What I want to say in this regard is probably more in response to guest's post than anything, actually.

Anyway, items in general favor faster characters who can avoid and collect them easier than slower characters. These faster characters are generally higher tier characters like Fox, Sheik, etc. Fox and Falco (again, two high tier characters) also possess reflectors, which gives them yet another advantage over other characters when items are turned on. And of course, any natural advantages (especially those given to higher tier characters) are what competitive players hope to avoid during tournaments.

Like I said, items also add several luck factors to Smash. Going beyond the occasional exploding crate/barrel/capsule, where an item spawns is also a factor of luck/chance that may greatly effect a match. For instance, if an item spawns closer to your opponent, he/she has a greater chance of collecting said item and an advantage over you. If he/she manages to collect the item, your opponent now either has a greater chance of taking a stock from you or lessens the chance of you taking a stock from him/her (depending on whether said item is used for attack or healing). In a tournament, one stock of one game in one match could ultimately lead to your elimination, and items will very often lead to the loss of that one stock that could end up in your elimination. This is what competitive players hope to avoid during tournaments.

Regarding the banned stages. Just as a reminder, the stages that are universally banned are Brinstar Depths, Flat Zone, Great Bay, Icicle Mountain, Hyrule Temple, Yoshi’s Island (64), Yoshi’s Island (Pipes), Venom, Fourside, Mushroom Kingdom I, and Big Blue. They're banned because they offer larger natural advantages to a larger amount of characters than the other, non-banned stages. For example, Icicle Mountain favors faster characters or characters with better jump and horizontal killing ability. On Great Bay, most players spend the majority of their time camping underneath the ledges, where wall/ceiling spikes are easy to perform. Hyrule Temple, being a large stage, slightly favors faster characters or characters with projectiles. As you can see a large amount of advantages that these stages offer favor faster, more mobile characters, and again, these characters are generally the higher tier characters.

Oh, and edge-guarding was part of the How to Play tutorial for Melee. To quote the tutorial verbatum: "spot a mid-air enemy and...intercept."

And just to further add to the whole “casual vs. competitive debate” in general, it should also be noted that very few advanced techniques are naturally advantageous to a Smash player. For instance, wavedashing will not automatically make you a better player if you can only perform the technique alone. Anyone can press the buttons/joystick in the order needed to perform the action; you need to know how to use the technique, then practice putting it to that use in order for the technique for it to be the least bit effective. It's essentially the same as a basic technique or attack in that sense (you need to know how to use it with the proper spacing in order for it to be any useful). Granted, advanced techniques are harder to learn and perform than basic techniques, though the phrase "advanced technique" implies that they'd be...well, advanced.

 

[TK Wolf]

Also, even though you may think items add complexity in their way, they also remove a lot of the complexity of the full range of things a character can do without such distractions

Quoted for truth. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.

 

[Misto-Roboto]

Like I said, items also add several luck factors to Smash. Going beyond the occasional exploding crate/barrel/capsule, where an item spawns is also a factor of luck/chance that may greatly effect a match. For instance, if an item spawns closer to your opponent, he/she has a greater chance of collecting said item and an advantage over you. If he/she manages to collect the item, your opponent now either has a greater chance of taking a stock from you or lessens the chance of you taking a stock from him/her (depending on whether said item is used for attack or healing). In a tournament, one stock of one game in one match could ultimately lead to your elimination, and items will very often lead to the loss of that one stock that could end up in your elimination. This is what competitive players hope to avoid during tournaments.

This argument, while logical is based on a sentiment of "All Items". I'm sure you can infer where I am going with that.

 

[Sasori's_Shadow]

This argument, while logical is based on a sentiment of "All Items". I'm sure you can infer where I am going with that.

It'd be nice if you could spell it out for me actually, because I'm not following. It might only be because it's fairly late over here or something, though I don't quite understand where you're coming from.

 

[Blackshadow]

I take it I'm the only one who doesn't like this thread. When you take items and certain stages out of a game, you're ruining it. Plain and simple. If these "professionals" are as great as they say they are, can't they find ways to avoid circumstances where it's "unfair" for them? It's just an excuse for people who don't want to use all of the stuff that makes it harder to play defense. And calling people who like using items and "unfair" stages casual players is a bit harsh. I'll be honest with you, I hated Melee but I love the first Super Smash Bros game. Items were a way of life. You have to plan out everything if you use items. When taking a certain aspect of the game, you're making it unfair to other people who have already considered that aspect.

tl;dr Tourney***s need to play the whole game and put every possible scenario in their gameplan instead of depending on rules that help your style of play.

4chan's /v/. Back to it.

 

[fishsticks]

Personally, I can't see how edgeguarding can be considered cheap.

I take it I'm the only one who doesn't like this thread. When you take items and certain stages out of a game, you're ruining it. Plain and simple. If these "professionals" are as great as they say they are, can't they find ways to avoid circumstances where it's "unfair" for them? It's just an excuse for people who don't want to use all of the stuff that makes it harder to play defense. And calling people who like using items and "unfair" stages casual players is a bit harsh. I'll be honest with you, I hated Melee but I love the first Super Smash Bros game. Items were a way of life. You have to plan out everything if you use items. When taking a certain aspect of the game, you're making it unfair to other people who have already considered that aspect.

tl;dr Tourney***s need to play the whole game and put every possible scenario in their gameplan instead of depending on rules that help your style of play.

The point of a tournament is to focus on the players' skill and eliminate all random factors from the game. If someone threw a Pokeball and an Entei came out, the other player would be pretty pissed to have a Goldeen come out of his.

...As it's been repeated millions of times across countless forums...

 

[Timat the Slayer]

Excellent thread.

And I'm going to assume someone else has said this already but..

A big reason tournament players do things 'cheap' is because they goto the tournament for MONEY. If they can kill you by edge hogging you and that's it, they'll do it because they want the money.

Just think you should point that out a little bit, but seriously, great thread.

 

[hOmeb0i]

finally a post that i can link too if someone calls me cheap because they can't win against me. Good post sir.

 

[Cerulean_Charizard]

I reckon all casuals like me should read this; it could stop those silly flame wars I’ve been seeing a lot of recently and make things here altogether calmer.

I have nothing but praise for the opening post of this thread. It is very handy, well thought out and well written. I understand the viewpoint of the competitive players thanks to this thread and understand how they do things differently to casuals and why. It’s such a great insight into tournaments and why the rules are chosen.

You have given me newfound respect for tournament players, well done!

 

[OrlanduEX]

Why don't any of the GOOD threads get stickied?

This amazing thread will likely fall from the front page in a few days and the pointless casual vs competitive arguments will continue.

 

[Dero]

Very good thread, would read again.

 

[joeysmash]

good read, while I do not like WDing, Im not angry at tourny people using it. I am happy that it is out, so now mindgames, comboing, and edgeguarding will determine the best players.

 

[gangstajuice02]

great thread, but... LONG!!

 

[Graceful]

good read, while I do not like WDing, Im not angry at tourny people using it. I am happy that it is out, so now mindgames, comboing, and edgeguarding will determine the best players.

lol wth,
WD helped mindgames,combos, and edgeguarding.
xD haha

Tip: Think before you post :D

 

[OrlanduEX]

good read, while I do not like WDing, Im not angry at tourny people using it. I am happy that it is out, so now mindgames, comboing, and edgeguarding will determine the best players.

Wavedashing never determined the best players.
Combos in general are nerfed in Brawl.
Edge guarding is much less effective in Brawl.
Mind games are overrated.

 

[xbrinkx]

You just won the world, the internet and 30 copies of Brawl along with an American and Japanese Wii... And a sticky.

Fixed my post .

 

[joeysmash]

Wavedashing never determined the best players.
Combos in general are nerfed in Brawl.
Edge guarding is much less effective in Brawl.
Mind games are overrated.

WD definatly seperated great players from normals
You can still combo, take time to find some
you kidding me, look at tether recoveries.
that last coment just shot down your arguement. they are indeed not

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

WD definatly seperated great players from normals
You can still combo, take time to find some
you kidding me, look at tether recoveries.
that last coment just shot down your arguement. they are indeed not

Combos hardly exist in Brawl, every good player that has played brawl agrees on this. It seems like there are combos, but 90% of them can be broken out of due to ridiculously low stun.

Mindgames are indeed overrated, as they are simply tricking your opponent. Playing smart is completely different from mindgames, although this aspect of smash is often packed into the term.

 

[Mule50]

this is a very well thought out thread. very detailed

 

[Arteen]

WD definatly seperated great players from normals

I thought being a better player separated the great players from the normal.

 

[xbrinkx]

This thread needs a sticky... IMMEDIATELY!

 

[killbeast301]

Hmm. An inteligent first post?
IT MUST BE THE APOCALYPSE! EVERYONE RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!

But seriously, good job.
I vote for this to be stickied

 

[xbrinkx]

If you're going to vote it stickied, vote the thread! I voted 5.

 

[OrlanduEX]

WD definatly seperated great players from normals

Not really. General knowledge and experience in the game and application of a wide variety of general as well as character specific techs are what separate scrubs from intermediates and intermediates from pros. Wave dashing is just one move. It actually doesn't help you if you don't know how to apply it.
In fact, not all characters can use it effectively. While Fox, Falco, Ice Climbers, Marth and others can use it to great effectiveness, some characters like Jigglypuff and C. Falcon gain little from it. With Jiggly, you're spending the vast majority of your time spamming aerials, so effective use of l-cancel and DI are far more important. Same with C.Falcon. You spend most of your time shffling aerials. And he has a great dash dance which replaces his need for wavedashing in mind games to some extent.

You can still combo, take time to find some

I never said combos are gone. I said they are nerfed. Significantly. The hit stun of all moves in this game is greatly reduced, so comboing anything will be much harder. Combos will still be important, but not NEARLY as potent as they are in Melee.

you kidding me, look at tether recoveries.

Edgehogging stuffs tether recovery, but recovery in general is much easier in this game. Most characters can get back to the stage just by floating towards it without even using a recovery move if they aren't spiked, and spiking is less effective now due to the reduced hit stun. In general, edge guarding simply wont be as effective as it was in Melee.

that last coment just shot down your arguement. they are indeed not

Mind games are just tricks you use to gain advantages over your opponents. While they are definitely important, they do not replace the importance of experience, reflexive decision making, and technical skills.

 

[guest]

if professional basketball or football or soccer players are as good as they are, why not have a device that randomly drops things on them? Since everyone has to avoid them, it's fair and it adds strategy, right?

...

because it makes the game stupid?

Also, even though you may think items add complexity in their way, they also remove a lot of the complexity of the full range of things a character can do without such distractions.

Professional sporting events DO have things that make the game unfair. Home court/field advantage, referees, ect. So that is a faulty argument.

Personally, I can't see how edgeguarding can be considered cheap.



The point of a tournament is to focus on the players' skill and eliminate all random factors from the game. If someone threw a Pokeball and an Entei came out, the other player would be pretty pissed to have a Goldeen come out of his.

...As it's been repeated millions of times across countless forums...

I don't see how you would be pissed. He got something you didn't. It's part of the game.

 

[Dantarion]

Professional sporting events DO have things that make the game unfair. Home court/field advantage, referees, ect. So that is a faulty argument.

Home court and field advantage are things that CANNOT be removed from actual sports easily.
Referee's attempt to make the game more fair by enforcing the rules.

I don't see how you would be pissed. He got something you didn't. It's part of the game.

This goes back to the whole "flip a coin when you score for extra points" arguement.

Both people did the same thing, in terms of making an effort to get a pokeball. If one person gets Entei and one gets Goldeen, that is an element of extreme randomness that favors one person.

The goal of tournament rules is to remove randomness so that it comes down to skill in the end.
And so, people turn items off.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I don't see how you would be pissed. He got something you didn't. It's part of the game.

You'd be pissed if there was $10,000 on the line and you only had one shot at it but lost because of said Entei

 

[OrlanduEX]

Professional sporting events DO have things that make the game unfair. Home court/field advantage, referees, ect. So that is a faulty argument.

Are you serious? How does home field advantage make the game "unfair"? The affects of home fields advantage are purely psychological if they even exist. It's not like the crowd is throwing stuff at the opposing team...
And referees? What exactly are you talking about here?

I don't see how you would be pissed. He got something you didn't. It's part of the game.

The question is DID HE EARN IT? If someone gets a kill off of someone else with some powerful item, he gets rewarded for luck, not his ability to play.