D
Deleted member
Guest
raptor boost completely counters n-air
if you think you have a read that your opponent will n-air (don't see why not it beats every falcon aerial) then side-b
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Falcon Mind-Meld: A Captain Falcon Matchup Thread (now on: EDGEGUARDING))
- Thread starter DuckPimp
- Start date
if you think you have a read that your opponent will n-air (don't see why not it beats every falcon aerial) then side-b
DuckPimp
Smash Ace
Alright, we've covered a lot on Marth now. We are now officially going to switch to:
FOX
Same format as before:
What Falcon has to watch out for-
What Falcon can do to get around these techniques-
Percents and DI info-
Stages to ban/counterpick in this matchup, and why?-
General Falcon mindset in this matchup?-
Summary-
Additional Thoughts-
we can still post advice and percents and whatever for marth, but the focus for now will be on fox
FOX
Same format as before:
What Falcon has to watch out for-
What Falcon can do to get around these techniques-
Percents and DI info-
Stages to ban/counterpick in this matchup, and why?-
General Falcon mindset in this matchup?-
Summary-
Additional Thoughts-
we can still post advice and percents and whatever for marth, but the focus for now will be on fox
do a lot of retreating aerials
retreating nairs, bairs, and stomps all hit foxes a lot
dont worry too much about lasers, youre fast enough for them to probably not add up to significant % and if you dont get too far away then fox will be scared of lasering as well because you could fly at them at any time
retreating nairs, bairs, and stomps all hit foxes a lot
dont worry too much about lasers, youre fast enough for them to probably not add up to significant % and if you dont get too far away then fox will be scared of lasering as well because you could fly at them at any time
Roneblaster
Smash Hero
tech chase regrabs.
legion598
Smash Ace
foxs main approaching tool is Nair it can be used in virtually all approaching scenarios. Nair can be stopped by Nairing fox as hes leaving the ground for his Nair, DD away and back grab, and when fox goes further than usual to get past your DD just do a retreating Bair, Dair, or even pivot Nair. If Nair lands on your shield you can really only roll and if fox decides to not shine and instead keep Nairing, even that doesnt work. so if you know fox will just keep Nairing just shield grab.
Foxs main defensive tools are Bairs, Utilts, and lasers. Fortunately lasers arent really an issue with falcon because falcon is too quick for them but they do force you to have to deal with Bair and Utilt eventually. Utilt can be dealt with by using DDs to bait it and punish with grab or even a knee. Bair is a ***** to deal with tho, you can DD around it and get a grab but the timing is very strict because fox can immediately spot dodge or shine or whatever afterward
edge gaurding is pretty easy you can drop zone fox. what i usually use to edge gaurd is weak knee>Uair if hes far off. If hes recovering upwards I try to grab the edge and ledge hop invincible Bairs, Uairs, and knees which cover all of his angles if you do the right one.
I ban yoshis against foxs because about 40% of the stage is a danger zone were shines will kill you. I counter KJ64, DL, and even FD if im feeling like a bad ***
Foxs main defensive tools are Bairs, Utilts, and lasers. Fortunately lasers arent really an issue with falcon because falcon is too quick for them but they do force you to have to deal with Bair and Utilt eventually. Utilt can be dealt with by using DDs to bait it and punish with grab or even a knee. Bair is a ***** to deal with tho, you can DD around it and get a grab but the timing is very strict because fox can immediately spot dodge or shine or whatever afterward
edge gaurding is pretty easy you can drop zone fox. what i usually use to edge gaurd is weak knee>Uair if hes far off. If hes recovering upwards I try to grab the edge and ledge hop invincible Bairs, Uairs, and knees which cover all of his angles if you do the right one.
I ban yoshis against foxs because about 40% of the stage is a danger zone were shines will kill you. I counter KJ64, DL, and even FD if im feeling like a bad ***
D
Deleted member
Guest
Bored in class...
Getting grabbed usually gets u fuked
on FD, if they up-throw and don't hit you immediately you can jump out before they chain grab you
when getting up-thrown on FD or no platforms at mid-percent, DI the up-throw away and the incoming n-air down and away so they can't chain aerials on you
if you get thrown onto a platform you need to see if the fox likes to hit you immediately or wait for you to tech
Most foxes go for b-air / up-air and cover the tech in place so you should almost NEVER tech in place
unless the fox waits, then you can tech in place, shield the coming aerial and get away
Gentlemen is almost as good as the shine, abuse it a lot in this matchup, do it a lot after good n-airs and mix in first 2 jabs to grab. It's a great panic move when you slightly mess up spacing. Space n-airs and mix up your n-airs too. Spaced well n-air gentlemen is almost unpunishable and is good for some pressure
if they are at low percents when you gentlemen them and they crouch to d-tilt, crouch cancel their d-tilt and grab them instead. Crouching a lot of weak hits will do you a lot of good in general. You can crouch up-smash at 0~ percent, not be knocked off your feet and immediately punish them for hitting you
Stages to ban: Yoshi's Story/Fountain of Dreams
Yoshi's is better against Foxes that don't know how to be aggressive correctly. If you can outcamp Fox (lol) then it's not a 80/20 matchup stage but still kinda bad
Fountain of Dreams favor campier foxes but a lot of foxes aren't too good on that stage. Usually ban this though unless you have a good handle of the stage (and opponent doesn't)
i personally hate Pokemon Stadium because of some gay transformations and i don't want to wait and camp, making me get hit when i approach
---
Main shield pressures fox do is n-air, b-air (shine), aerial spam
Aerials out of shield will usually never work but i think its good to do once in a while and/or unless you have a sick read on your opponent. If they space noob and shine a stomp out of shield will work
The easiest way to get out of it is to roll
But you must not be predictable whenever you roll since they can literally walk a few steps after a b-air and up-smash
Buffer jump is good sometimes, so is wavedash out of shield
Jumping out of shield when you know they are going to hit you with a shine is GOOD because you will be on your feet within a split second and you can run the hell away (the BigD)
--
BigD's advice is pretty good on fighting Fox
I find that just playing very conservative and defensively with (pivot) n-airs, b-airs are very good
Each time you grab them and tech chase you must make a mental note of what they do in most situations. It's very hard to get a great read on opponents in a 2 out of 3 set though so a tiny bit of luck or regrabbing is needed. Ideally you want to figure them out by 3rd match (99% of the world has a pattern especially when in pressure spots)
Even when they tech in place its important to know if they flip out and shine, shield, spot-dodge, roll, buffer-jump, up-tilt, etc
Some key notes (some maybe not applicable): Many technical foxes in the world wants to tech in place and get back in the fight immediately
most normal people when getting tech chased will never do the same thing twice such as teching in place repeatedly. Foxes should sometimes not change it up but they don't
If you get shined next to an edge and you are falling onto the edge, the key i think is to fastfall so you grab the edge before you get shined to your death
--
On edgeguarding:
My edgeguarding is FUKEN BAD
All I have to say is when you dropzone, you won't hit if they DI away and will probably die. Most people getting grabbed out of a side-b won't DI in time so that's a great spot.
You have enough time though that after the d-throw you can gauge if you can hit them or not
A Mid-level fox slayer is when after you hit them off the stage you do a big full-jump weak knee gimp when they are in the 'bubble.' In most cases even if you miss you are safe to recover
Better foxes though will see you coming, shine stall, drop low, double jump late forcing you to suicide kill or just recover and let them back on.
But a trick is to jump out like you are going for it, jump back and trick them into recovering low so you have an easier edgeguard (i'd probably miss)
Getting grabbed usually gets u fuked
on FD, if they up-throw and don't hit you immediately you can jump out before they chain grab you
when getting up-thrown on FD or no platforms at mid-percent, DI the up-throw away and the incoming n-air down and away so they can't chain aerials on you
if you get thrown onto a platform you need to see if the fox likes to hit you immediately or wait for you to tech
Most foxes go for b-air / up-air and cover the tech in place so you should almost NEVER tech in place
unless the fox waits, then you can tech in place, shield the coming aerial and get away
Gentlemen is almost as good as the shine, abuse it a lot in this matchup, do it a lot after good n-airs and mix in first 2 jabs to grab. It's a great panic move when you slightly mess up spacing. Space n-airs and mix up your n-airs too. Spaced well n-air gentlemen is almost unpunishable and is good for some pressure
if they are at low percents when you gentlemen them and they crouch to d-tilt, crouch cancel their d-tilt and grab them instead. Crouching a lot of weak hits will do you a lot of good in general. You can crouch up-smash at 0~ percent, not be knocked off your feet and immediately punish them for hitting you
Stages to ban: Yoshi's Story/Fountain of Dreams
Yoshi's is better against Foxes that don't know how to be aggressive correctly. If you can outcamp Fox (lol) then it's not a 80/20 matchup stage but still kinda bad
Fountain of Dreams favor campier foxes but a lot of foxes aren't too good on that stage. Usually ban this though unless you have a good handle of the stage (and opponent doesn't)
i personally hate Pokemon Stadium because of some gay transformations and i don't want to wait and camp, making me get hit when i approach
---
Main shield pressures fox do is n-air, b-air (shine), aerial spam
Aerials out of shield will usually never work but i think its good to do once in a while and/or unless you have a sick read on your opponent. If they space noob and shine a stomp out of shield will work
The easiest way to get out of it is to roll
But you must not be predictable whenever you roll since they can literally walk a few steps after a b-air and up-smash
Buffer jump is good sometimes, so is wavedash out of shield
Jumping out of shield when you know they are going to hit you with a shine is GOOD because you will be on your feet within a split second and you can run the hell away (the BigD)
--
BigD's advice is pretty good on fighting Fox
I find that just playing very conservative and defensively with (pivot) n-airs, b-airs are very good
Each time you grab them and tech chase you must make a mental note of what they do in most situations. It's very hard to get a great read on opponents in a 2 out of 3 set though so a tiny bit of luck or regrabbing is needed. Ideally you want to figure them out by 3rd match (99% of the world has a pattern especially when in pressure spots)
Even when they tech in place its important to know if they flip out and shine, shield, spot-dodge, roll, buffer-jump, up-tilt, etc
Some key notes (some maybe not applicable): Many technical foxes in the world wants to tech in place and get back in the fight immediately
most normal people when getting tech chased will never do the same thing twice such as teching in place repeatedly. Foxes should sometimes not change it up but they don't
If you get shined next to an edge and you are falling onto the edge, the key i think is to fastfall so you grab the edge before you get shined to your death
--
On edgeguarding:
My edgeguarding is FUKEN BAD
All I have to say is when you dropzone, you won't hit if they DI away and will probably die. Most people getting grabbed out of a side-b won't DI in time so that's a great spot.
You have enough time though that after the d-throw you can gauge if you can hit them or not
A Mid-level fox slayer is when after you hit them off the stage you do a big full-jump weak knee gimp when they are in the 'bubble.' In most cases even if you miss you are safe to recover
Better foxes though will see you coming, shine stall, drop low, double jump late forcing you to suicide kill or just recover and let them back on.
But a trick is to jump out like you are going for it, jump back and trick them into recovering low so you have an easier edgeguard (i'd probably miss)
Roneblaster
Smash Hero
moral of the story
s2j sucks at edgeguarding but is good at everything else.
s2j sucks at edgeguarding but is good at everything else.
Like we've said, drop zoning is a great edgeguard, but for all the people who don't side b straight at a CF [like me, I've picked up Fox recently, tired of being on the 40 side of the 60/40 match up (imo of course)] then you have a few tools to really really destroy fox.
Lazy Falcon [utilt] absolutely destroys any side b at the ledge if you time it right, and breaks most Firefoxes. But if he's sidebing into the Ledge, why lazy falcon?
Dtilt into KNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. It's hard if they DI away, but with Falcon, anything is possible!
As far as on the ground goes, a LOT of DD here, if he ever approaches [EVER] you need to dash away and pivot grab [if you know how]. If not, then just kinda throw out a JC grab or maybe a raptor boost if your opponent just doesn't see it coming at all.
Mostly you want that upthrow -> tech chase. I like the upthrow because it's easier to follow in my opinion than a downthrow that you have to dash after.
If they don't tech, obviously do a nice little move called the stomp, but if they do, all you can do is techchase into another grab/stomp/knee/win.
As far as approaching, Nair is not good. CC->uSmash? you don't want that extra 16-20% uTilt ***** your ENTIRE moveset. ENTIRE. So if he's facing away, it's now time to DD camp.
BE AFRAID OF THE SHINE.
Since I've been playing Fox against CF, it's given me reason to giggle hysterically like a child, because it's SO easy to Edgeguard Falcon with shine. It's stupid good.
All you can really do is just kinda stall [not moving towards the stage] until you know you can reach it, or go over him. That's really your only two options. Fox DESTROYS your recovery. Even if you go above him, he can just Bair you until you miss/die. So, please please please don't get off the stage.
Also, SDI that **** away when you start getting waveshined. GTFO away from it.
Stage picks:
Against Fox-> anything that makes you good and him bad.
That narrows it to about 2 stages: DL64, and FD.
DL is your friend, but FD is your bestest friend. Fox just willl not kill you off the top. CF just refuses to do so. At like 180% you won't die from a Usmash on DL 64 [double check?]
Point is, you won't die from the top. Unfortunately, Fox won't try to kill you off the top. So you want a large stage to DD on, and platforms to avoid lasers/add mobility.
Like we've discussed, Lasers aren't that great against CF, but every percent counts right?
Bans
FoD if your opponent is ridiculously gay and tries to choose this, but otherwise PS.
I say this because this a common Fox/Falco CP, and to take away his #1 CP will probably make him pick something slightly better for you like Yoshi's. Now we've said Yoshi's is bad for you because of Shine spike on about 40% of the stage, but it's a fantastic stage for CF, especially if you can platform dash and use the scar jump. anything that adds to CF's mobility is a win. And get used to playing on this stage, because this is actually a very common CP vs Falcon. Which is strange, due to how awesome 50% knees can be.
-------------------------------------TL;DR--------------------------
uTilt, dtilt->knee are great edgeguards if Fox tries to sweet spot. If he doesn't, you know what to do. [hint: knee] OH, and ftilt angled down does some stupid things sometimes.
Ground game is consisting of spaced NAirs [if he approaches with Nairs], DD camp, and grab->techchase. If he ever misses a tech, Stomp->knee FTW [unless he's at a stupid percent, in which a straight knee or dtilt->knee is better]
Be afraid of Shine. Don't get edgeguarded by it, try to get up above him. Even Bair chain is better than a shinespike.
Stage picks: DL 64, FD, and Rainbow Cruise if you love manliness [but you really shouldn't take any character with a projectile here...] Brinstar is good if you like obscure CP [lava->knee?]
Bans:
PS, FoD [such great music though]
Alright thanks for reading, hope it helped!
Lazy Falcon [utilt] absolutely destroys any side b at the ledge if you time it right, and breaks most Firefoxes. But if he's sidebing into the Ledge, why lazy falcon?
Dtilt into KNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. It's hard if they DI away, but with Falcon, anything is possible!
As far as on the ground goes, a LOT of DD here, if he ever approaches [EVER] you need to dash away and pivot grab [if you know how]. If not, then just kinda throw out a JC grab or maybe a raptor boost if your opponent just doesn't see it coming at all.
Mostly you want that upthrow -> tech chase. I like the upthrow because it's easier to follow in my opinion than a downthrow that you have to dash after.
If they don't tech, obviously do a nice little move called the stomp, but if they do, all you can do is techchase into another grab/stomp/knee/win.
As far as approaching, Nair is not good. CC->uSmash? you don't want that extra 16-20% uTilt ***** your ENTIRE moveset. ENTIRE. So if he's facing away, it's now time to DD camp.
BE AFRAID OF THE SHINE.
Since I've been playing Fox against CF, it's given me reason to giggle hysterically like a child, because it's SO easy to Edgeguard Falcon with shine. It's stupid good.
All you can really do is just kinda stall [not moving towards the stage] until you know you can reach it, or go over him. That's really your only two options. Fox DESTROYS your recovery. Even if you go above him, he can just Bair you until you miss/die. So, please please please don't get off the stage.
Also, SDI that **** away when you start getting waveshined. GTFO away from it.
Stage picks:
Against Fox-> anything that makes you good and him bad.
That narrows it to about 2 stages: DL64, and FD.
DL is your friend, but FD is your bestest friend. Fox just willl not kill you off the top. CF just refuses to do so. At like 180% you won't die from a Usmash on DL 64 [double check?]
Point is, you won't die from the top. Unfortunately, Fox won't try to kill you off the top. So you want a large stage to DD on, and platforms to avoid lasers/add mobility.
Like we've discussed, Lasers aren't that great against CF, but every percent counts right?
Bans
FoD if your opponent is ridiculously gay and tries to choose this, but otherwise PS.
I say this because this a common Fox/Falco CP, and to take away his #1 CP will probably make him pick something slightly better for you like Yoshi's. Now we've said Yoshi's is bad for you because of Shine spike on about 40% of the stage, but it's a fantastic stage for CF, especially if you can platform dash and use the scar jump. anything that adds to CF's mobility is a win. And get used to playing on this stage, because this is actually a very common CP vs Falcon. Which is strange, due to how awesome 50% knees can be.
-------------------------------------TL;DR--------------------------
uTilt, dtilt->knee are great edgeguards if Fox tries to sweet spot. If he doesn't, you know what to do. [hint: knee] OH, and ftilt angled down does some stupid things sometimes.
Ground game is consisting of spaced NAirs [if he approaches with Nairs], DD camp, and grab->techchase. If he ever misses a tech, Stomp->knee FTW [unless he's at a stupid percent, in which a straight knee or dtilt->knee is better]
Be afraid of Shine. Don't get edgeguarded by it, try to get up above him. Even Bair chain is better than a shinespike.
Stage picks: DL 64, FD, and Rainbow Cruise if you love manliness [but you really shouldn't take any character with a projectile here...] Brinstar is good if you like obscure CP [lava->knee?]
Bans:
PS, FoD [such great music though]
Alright thanks for reading, hope it helped!
DuckPimp
Smash Ace
ok , im working on creating a preliminary fox paragraph in the format... also bumping the thread cuz we need more stuff on fox
does anyone have a link to g-regs thread that had some %s on it?
does anyone have a link to g-regs thread that had some %s on it?
one of my favorite tricks
better vs falcon, but works vs all edgeguardable people
if you grab them near the edge, and think theyre gonna DI away thus invalidating a dropzone, just fthrow them. they go pretty far, and in dittos its horribly easy to edgeguard afterwards but its still definitely possible against fox
im pretty good at edgeguarding fox so i'll say some stuff
uptilt is really good for when they sweetspot the ledge with forward b, its not that hard to time if you predict theyll do it and not much else reliably hits that low
learn to recognize their options once theyre off the stage, and if the situation calls for it go out there and hit them. fox's like to up b diagonally downwards to grab the ledge, the only real reliable way to kill them on this is to hit them while their up b is charging. the easiest way to do this is to dj uair it from below, you almost never get burned that way
as s2j mentioned, its much easier to edgeguard fox if he is below the stage and no longer has the options of up b'ing down to the ledge or forward b'ing. almost every fox knows this as well, at least subconsciously, so if you hit them out of their fire so they dont have a jump and they can forward b back, they will almost every time, regardless of skill, so wait for that.
basically my biggest advice that i think i do that other people dont do enough is to not be afraid to go out there and kill fox; you dont get a lot of opportunities in the matchup and you need to take the ones you get, even if it could possibly put you in danger
better vs falcon, but works vs all edgeguardable people
if you grab them near the edge, and think theyre gonna DI away thus invalidating a dropzone, just fthrow them. they go pretty far, and in dittos its horribly easy to edgeguard afterwards but its still definitely possible against fox
im pretty good at edgeguarding fox so i'll say some stuff
uptilt is really good for when they sweetspot the ledge with forward b, its not that hard to time if you predict theyll do it and not much else reliably hits that low
learn to recognize their options once theyre off the stage, and if the situation calls for it go out there and hit them. fox's like to up b diagonally downwards to grab the ledge, the only real reliable way to kill them on this is to hit them while their up b is charging. the easiest way to do this is to dj uair it from below, you almost never get burned that way
as s2j mentioned, its much easier to edgeguard fox if he is below the stage and no longer has the options of up b'ing down to the ledge or forward b'ing. almost every fox knows this as well, at least subconsciously, so if you hit them out of their fire so they dont have a jump and they can forward b back, they will almost every time, regardless of skill, so wait for that.
basically my biggest advice that i think i do that other people dont do enough is to not be afraid to go out there and kill fox; you dont get a lot of opportunities in the matchup and you need to take the ones you get, even if it could possibly put you in danger
mastermoo420
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2010
- Messages
- 726
http://www.mediafire.com/?ffqafppq634nf8q
http://text.pastebin.com/3aJ9jbLA
Same thing except the first one's the file and the second's a pastebin (so less formatting, kinda).
These are actually tips for Fox against Falcon that I kinda wrote on my own based on my own experiences. I may not be the most experienced, but this is all my knowledge as a Fox that often plays against a Falcon. Though this won't teach you what to do, this gives a lot of knowledge on Fox's might try to do.
Also, u-throw > d-tilt can work at higher percentages (DarkRain). And, imo, you just need to **** the Fox because of all the stuff Fox has that just wrecks Falcon (see: Shine).
http://text.pastebin.com/3aJ9jbLA
Same thing except the first one's the file and the second's a pastebin (so less formatting, kinda).
These are actually tips for Fox against Falcon that I kinda wrote on my own based on my own experiences. I may not be the most experienced, but this is all my knowledge as a Fox that often plays against a Falcon. Though this won't teach you what to do, this gives a lot of knowledge on Fox's might try to do.
Also, u-throw > d-tilt can work at higher percentages (DarkRain). And, imo, you just need to **** the Fox because of all the stuff Fox has that just wrecks Falcon (see: Shine).
DuckPimp
Smash Ace
sorry guys, school is kicking my *** at the moment. this thread is still on my mind, though. I am still working on almagating the fox info into a first draft of a guide
GooeyBanana
Smash Lord
I've come to find that retreating bairs or fake out bairs/pivot bairs/whatever they're called(where you're dashing around trying to get the Fox to approach, and then you dash away when they finally cave, but instead of actually dashing away, you just do a stationary bair) are **** against Fox's approach game.
Basically, my main goal in this matchup is to make the Fox feel like their nair is the worst available move to them, since A LOT of Fox mains think this is their cureall for the Falcon matchup. You want to stuff it everytime with one of the aforementioned bairs, a well spaced pivot nair, or dash dance around, and then when they approach with nair, dash right out of it's range and then come back in with a grab/punish their spot dodge/utilt/shine that you predicted. Once I've made them feel like their nair is useless, I'm able to approach a lil more, and you have to be REALLY careful with spacing here, because their bair is mad gay to get past, and they always have that ******** utilt to save their *** too.
Tech chase regrab to get into their heads and make them feel like any tech is a silly option, and then you're able to **** them because they begin teching like a doofus. I've noticed A LOT of Foxes/Falcos LOVE to tech in place/not tech at all when you throw them at mid-high percents near the ledge...then again, that's subject to change at any point depending on how much you've scared them. I'm still working on this case myself, because tech in place -> utilt/shine ***** me T_T....
I find empty short hops to be really useful at times, just like blindly charge in(WHEN YOU'VE SCARED THEM) and then do something along the lines of...gentleman/ftilt/dsmash when they're near the ledge/etc. Stuff's just fun, although it shouldn't be abused...gotta stay unpredictable =P Also, having consistent tech skill on platform stages is pretty key. Even better if you're good at ledge cancelling aerials.
If a Fox is going to be a dip**** when you have them grabbed at like...60/70%+(prolly need to test this out to find exact %'s), just uthrow chaingrab them...they really can't get out of it unless they DI away, so why not? Free %, and if they proceed to be a ******* leading up until 95%, free fsmash kill. Don't rely on this, but a lot of good Foxes have succumbed to this before and it's lolzy getting that fsmash kill. Generally only happens on FD/DL64/Kongo though. Also, now that I mention it, 95%...uthrow -> fsmash them, regardless of if you've been chaingrabbing them or if you just grabbed them around that %. So long as they don't DI away(so no DI or DI behind, it will connect), it connects and they pretty much die. I've dropped the idea of uthrow -> knee until they reach like 120% rofl, too much effort.
Hope all that is factual info...a lot of it is situational, but hey, it's worth knowing =P Once again though, I want to reiterate that BAIR IS YOUR BEST FRIEND IN THIS MATCHUP.
Basically, my main goal in this matchup is to make the Fox feel like their nair is the worst available move to them, since A LOT of Fox mains think this is their cureall for the Falcon matchup. You want to stuff it everytime with one of the aforementioned bairs, a well spaced pivot nair, or dash dance around, and then when they approach with nair, dash right out of it's range and then come back in with a grab/punish their spot dodge/utilt/shine that you predicted. Once I've made them feel like their nair is useless, I'm able to approach a lil more, and you have to be REALLY careful with spacing here, because their bair is mad gay to get past, and they always have that ******** utilt to save their *** too.
Tech chase regrab to get into their heads and make them feel like any tech is a silly option, and then you're able to **** them because they begin teching like a doofus. I've noticed A LOT of Foxes/Falcos LOVE to tech in place/not tech at all when you throw them at mid-high percents near the ledge...then again, that's subject to change at any point depending on how much you've scared them. I'm still working on this case myself, because tech in place -> utilt/shine ***** me T_T....
I find empty short hops to be really useful at times, just like blindly charge in(WHEN YOU'VE SCARED THEM) and then do something along the lines of...gentleman/ftilt/dsmash when they're near the ledge/etc. Stuff's just fun, although it shouldn't be abused...gotta stay unpredictable =P Also, having consistent tech skill on platform stages is pretty key. Even better if you're good at ledge cancelling aerials.
If a Fox is going to be a dip**** when you have them grabbed at like...60/70%+(prolly need to test this out to find exact %'s), just uthrow chaingrab them...they really can't get out of it unless they DI away, so why not? Free %, and if they proceed to be a ******* leading up until 95%, free fsmash kill. Don't rely on this, but a lot of good Foxes have succumbed to this before and it's lolzy getting that fsmash kill. Generally only happens on FD/DL64/Kongo though. Also, now that I mention it, 95%...uthrow -> fsmash them, regardless of if you've been chaingrabbing them or if you just grabbed them around that %. So long as they don't DI away(so no DI or DI behind, it will connect), it connects and they pretty much die. I've dropped the idea of uthrow -> knee until they reach like 120% rofl, too much effort.
Hope all that is factual info...a lot of it is situational, but hey, it's worth knowing =P Once again though, I want to reiterate that BAIR IS YOUR BEST FRIEND IN THIS MATCHUP.
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
Liking this thread <3
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
@gooeybanana: im assuming you tech chase regrab by reaction? whats the best setup for this?
GooeyBanana
Smash Lord
Tech chase regrab is pretty heavily reaction based, but also prediction based I guess you could say. Just saying right now, you have to have prettyyyyyy good reaction speed to grab a tech in place, because shine comes out so fast >_< That's probably why most people opt for an aerial to punish a tech in place. I think that's the reason people get so freaked when you tech chase regrab them though...because typically they should be able to get out via utilt/shine/spot dodge, but you're beating that option out with a grab rofl. Now I may only be theorycrafting atm, but only one tech chase regrab is generally needed against MOST players. Reason I say this is, they may roll on that first dthrow...but the second one, they're gonna be like wtf? He grabbed me? And then they're too busy focusing on that so they do good ol' predictable tech in place =P Which usually, is a stock depending on the situation. *insert fear* Against pretty darn good people, you really gotta go with a gut feeling. Like...should I tech chase grab them some more, or should I start lighting them up with some aerials? It really sucks on giving advice on things such as these because it's all so situational based. I don't think a lot of people realize that, but not every Fox/Falco/Sheik/Marth plays the same....so you gotta like just take fundamentals and general game knowledge and just go with what you feel will get that stock. Lol.
But yeah, tl;dr version: Tech chase regrabbing is pretty reaction based, at least for me. That's probably why I'm not fantastic at it =P But I know the logistics of what goes on afterward....god I need to stop psyching myself out in this **** game xD
That seemed like such an ICG post, so please tell me if you need much clarification. Baked over atm v_v
But yeah, tl;dr version: Tech chase regrabbing is pretty reaction based, at least for me. That's probably why I'm not fantastic at it =P But I know the logistics of what goes on afterward....god I need to stop psyching myself out in this **** game xD
That seemed like such an ICG post, so please tell me if you need much clarification. Baked over atm v_v
D
Deleted member
Guest
its a mixture of both imo but more prediction than reaction
if you simply try to react to everything and regrab all day it won't work against good players (also stage dependent)
if you regrab all day and grab them next to a stage edge, neither d-throw or up-throw will make them land onto the stage (unless they suk) there comes a point where you must go for a read
that's what i think
regrabbing if they tech in place isn't so bad imo, if you dash dance after a throw and they tech a lot of foxes spazz out
you can also do the jeff run where you run at the right moment so you can both grab a tech in place and a tech away
if you simply try to react to everything and regrab all day it won't work against good players (also stage dependent)
if you regrab all day and grab them next to a stage edge, neither d-throw or up-throw will make them land onto the stage (unless they suk) there comes a point where you must go for a read
that's what i think
regrabbing if they tech in place isn't so bad imo, if you dash dance after a throw and they tech a lot of foxes spazz out
you can also do the jeff run where you run at the right moment so you can both grab a tech in place and a tech away
makoforce
Smash Ace
what about his ****ed waveshine combos's
D
Deleted member
Guest
smash DI really hard away so you can buffer roll, won't work against great foxes though some of the time
Leviathan741
Smash Ace
Falcon has to play the fox matchup real carefully. I don't think it is any worse than a 70-30 but I don't think its any better than a 65-35. Either way, falcon's only hope is to grab, grab, grab, techchase, techchase some more and then guess what, techchase some more. You have to know your percents or else your ****ed. like at 90's to 100's u can up throw knee, but for forward smash after uthrow he has to be higher than 75 I think. If you want to show off, you can stomp at around 75-81 into falcon punch if done correctly.
-WoMp-
Smash Cadet
Instead of going for d-tilts after u-throw, just down-smash. **** *****.
DuckPimp
Smash Ace
Mizar
Smash Ace
Or u-throw techchase all dai
I personally love this Match up, I use Falcon pretty much only for Fox.
I think it's a 60-40 but no more.
Especially if your opponent is easily predictable, or has some really simple patterns.
Falcon is the best [imo] punisher of any kind of predictability. So basically, watch for patterns, beat the crap out of him every time he does something stupid.
I haven't tried uthrow->dsmash, but I want to now.
I think it's a 60-40 but no more.
Especially if your opponent is easily predictable, or has some really simple patterns.
Falcon is the best [imo] punisher of any kind of predictability. So basically, watch for patterns, beat the crap out of him every time he does something stupid.
I haven't tried uthrow->dsmash, but I want to now.
Zhenkai
Smash Journeyman
From what I've seen and tried Uthrow>Dsmash works at like, 90%-110% with no DI or back DI from the Fox player, while an uthrow>Fsmash is as Leviathan mentioned, it's more mid-90s to mid 100s at best for it to connect with the same DI. To me I'd say just depends on which stage it is, where you grab Fox on the stage, and what you're more comfortable with. I'm not that experienced in the matchup myself, I play more Falcos than Foxes, but their weight is rather close, and from what I have done, it seems to work for me.
DuckPimp
Smash Ace
Reviving this thread, broz
What does Captain Falcon have to watch out for when playing this character?
Fox has quite a few tricks up his furry sleeves to make things, at the very least, difficult for falcon. He gets edgeguarded easily, and shines can gimp like nothing else. Falcon gets grabbed and punished with utilts or uairs or upsmashes. Fox can also waveshine falcon pretty well, which can lead to significant damage or KOs at gimp percentages. Jumping around with nair is a highly effective approach against Falcon. It’s bad, y’all.
What can Falcon do to get around these techniques?
First off is the shine. Jumping OOS is useful for when you know when you’re going to get shined, as you can be back on your feet quickly, and gtfo quickly. When getting waveshined, rolling out or jumping OOS is useful, but don’t let your rolls get predictable. As Falcons, we know what happens to predictable people in terms of punishment.
This point seems to be following a trend, but don’t go offstage needlessly. Unless youre trying to be soopa-flashy, which in that case do whatever you want, especially if you’re being recorded. Anyways, you run the risk of getting shinespiked (bad.) or bair-edge-guarded (bad.). However, when given the choice, make him bair you rather than shinespike. You have a chance of surviving a couple bairs, based on percent and DI. Shinespike… you dead.
Against nair, there are a couple of ways to deal. If you want to be soopa-angry, nair him as soon as he’s leaving the ground. Then DD away and grab him => ??? => profit. If you’re getting ***** and angry doesn’t cut it, put up that shield. You can roll out, and shieldgrab him if he keeps nairing. You can DDcamp, grab to techchase etc. Just be careful.
When getting tossed onto platforms, figure out what the fox does to proceed. Avoid the tech in place, because that is usually what they look for.
What Falcon should do to **** in this matchup?
Techchase like a badass. Do it. Do it. Do it. It’s always good, its what Falcon does well. Throw => techchase, nair=> grab, do anything you can in that aspect. If Fox misses a tech, stomp to Knee for the dead.
Use the gentleman as a pseudo-shine. It comes out fast, its disruptive, and it combos well. Abuse it, and mix up full combo and AAgrab to remain hard to predict. It’s good for when you mess up spacing by a little, and to use after nairs to avoid shieldgrabbing and start combos of your own. When spaced effectively, nair => gentleman is extremely difficult to punish, and is great for pressure situations.
Edgeguarding: Dtilt the side-b, follow up. If the situation deems it necessary, get out there and kill him. If theyre firefox-ing, you can drop down and dj-uair, that way you rarely get burned. It’s easier to edgeguard fox when he is below the stage, as he has fewer options. Subconsciously, they may prefer to side-b to the edge rather than up-b from below the stage, so take advantage of that.
Percents and DI info-
Stages to ban/counterpick in this matchup, and why?
Try and get your *** on DL64 or FD. Falcon is good when he can run around. Ban FoD, and Yoshi’s (or battlefield if you think you’re Scar, and go Yoshi’s).
Uair and upsmash kill you upwards. Obviously. They are two of fox’s best killing moves. Therefore, you may want to pick a stage with a high ceiling (DL64, FD). You will then want a stage to move around on, preferably with platforms to techchase/avoid lasers on.
General Falcon mindset in this matchup?
Summary
Additional thoughts
feel free to critique and recommend edits. Obviously unfinished at theis point, but its a concrete piece o' stuff.
What does Captain Falcon have to watch out for when playing this character?
Fox has quite a few tricks up his furry sleeves to make things, at the very least, difficult for falcon. He gets edgeguarded easily, and shines can gimp like nothing else. Falcon gets grabbed and punished with utilts or uairs or upsmashes. Fox can also waveshine falcon pretty well, which can lead to significant damage or KOs at gimp percentages. Jumping around with nair is a highly effective approach against Falcon. It’s bad, y’all.
What can Falcon do to get around these techniques?
First off is the shine. Jumping OOS is useful for when you know when you’re going to get shined, as you can be back on your feet quickly, and gtfo quickly. When getting waveshined, rolling out or jumping OOS is useful, but don’t let your rolls get predictable. As Falcons, we know what happens to predictable people in terms of punishment.
This point seems to be following a trend, but don’t go offstage needlessly. Unless youre trying to be soopa-flashy, which in that case do whatever you want, especially if you’re being recorded. Anyways, you run the risk of getting shinespiked (bad.) or bair-edge-guarded (bad.). However, when given the choice, make him bair you rather than shinespike. You have a chance of surviving a couple bairs, based on percent and DI. Shinespike… you dead.
Against nair, there are a couple of ways to deal. If you want to be soopa-angry, nair him as soon as he’s leaving the ground. Then DD away and grab him => ??? => profit. If you’re getting ***** and angry doesn’t cut it, put up that shield. You can roll out, and shieldgrab him if he keeps nairing. You can DDcamp, grab to techchase etc. Just be careful.
When getting tossed onto platforms, figure out what the fox does to proceed. Avoid the tech in place, because that is usually what they look for.
What Falcon should do to **** in this matchup?
Techchase like a badass. Do it. Do it. Do it. It’s always good, its what Falcon does well. Throw => techchase, nair=> grab, do anything you can in that aspect. If Fox misses a tech, stomp to Knee for the dead.
Use the gentleman as a pseudo-shine. It comes out fast, its disruptive, and it combos well. Abuse it, and mix up full combo and AAgrab to remain hard to predict. It’s good for when you mess up spacing by a little, and to use after nairs to avoid shieldgrabbing and start combos of your own. When spaced effectively, nair => gentleman is extremely difficult to punish, and is great for pressure situations.
Edgeguarding: Dtilt the side-b, follow up. If the situation deems it necessary, get out there and kill him. If theyre firefox-ing, you can drop down and dj-uair, that way you rarely get burned. It’s easier to edgeguard fox when he is below the stage, as he has fewer options. Subconsciously, they may prefer to side-b to the edge rather than up-b from below the stage, so take advantage of that.
Percents and DI info-
Stages to ban/counterpick in this matchup, and why?
Try and get your *** on DL64 or FD. Falcon is good when he can run around. Ban FoD, and Yoshi’s (or battlefield if you think you’re Scar, and go Yoshi’s).
Uair and upsmash kill you upwards. Obviously. They are two of fox’s best killing moves. Therefore, you may want to pick a stage with a high ceiling (DL64, FD). You will then want a stage to move around on, preferably with platforms to techchase/avoid lasers on.
General Falcon mindset in this matchup?
Summary
Additional thoughts
feel free to critique and recommend edits. Obviously unfinished at theis point, but its a concrete piece o' stuff.
DuckPimp
Smash Ace
sprry dbl post
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
I think Battlefield is great for limiting sweetspotting options from below
Foxes that know how to sweetspot the edge from below are annoying as all hell to edgeguard
Also Dtilt doesn't hit them if they shorten the illusion ~_~ (not much hits a Fox that can shorten the illusion)
If they shorten it's a 50/50 between edgehogging and covering the on stage option if they're in shortening range
Foxes that know how to sweetspot the edge from below are annoying as all hell to edgeguard
Also Dtilt doesn't hit them if they shorten the illusion ~_~ (not much hits a Fox that can shorten the illusion)
If they shorten it's a 50/50 between edgehogging and covering the on stage option if they're in shortening range
DuckPimp
Smash Ace
yeah thats absolutely true, battlefield is a ***** to sweetspotters sometimes...
if theyre within shortening range they have many options anyways... what would be the usual best course of action?
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Eh, no one edgeguards my Fox when I'm in shortening range haha
If you're on the edge and they're in shortening range AND you know they know how to shorten, get up attack will hog the edge and sometimes hit them backwards if they're doing a full length illusion
If they've shown no ability to shorten you should probably just do a typical on the stage edgeguard because sweetspotting the height is sometimes tricky to do and if they miss by even a little bit they'll have enough vulnerability for you to do something like uptilt or downward angled Ftilt (the true bane of space animals who suck at sweetspotting)
If you're on the edge and they're in shortening range AND you know they know how to shorten, get up attack will hog the edge and sometimes hit them backwards if they're doing a full length illusion
If they've shown no ability to shorten you should probably just do a typical on the stage edgeguard because sweetspotting the height is sometimes tricky to do and if they miss by even a little bit they'll have enough vulnerability for you to do something like uptilt or downward angled Ftilt (the true bane of space animals who suck at sweetspotting)
DuckPimp
Smash Ace
correct me if im wrong
generally if theyre in shortening range, unless youre already in the edge, theyll be back on before you can get to use the getup attack.
i cant see it as something that can be used frequently as a n edgeguard. i would dtilt for sweetspotters (unless they can shorten), and if they decide to firefox or try and hit you with illusion, react accordingly, be it jumping over the illusion and punishing, or by going out and hitting them out of firefox (provided you can do it quickly and not get reverse-gimped)
edgeguarding informations. go
generally if theyre in shortening range, unless youre already in the edge, theyll be back on before you can get to use the getup attack.
i cant see it as something that can be used frequently as a n edgeguard. i would dtilt for sweetspotters (unless they can shorten), and if they decide to firefox or try and hit you with illusion, react accordingly, be it jumping over the illusion and punishing, or by going out and hitting them out of firefox (provided you can do it quickly and not get reverse-gimped)
edgeguarding informations. go
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Knock them off and immediately grab the ledge
It's more for situations where if they use their double jump they'll be within shortening range, but you can use hitstun / the time it takes to double jump to get on the ledge in time to getup attack in response to illusions
Dtilt doesn't hit them if they get the height sweetspot (somewhat difficult) or the length sweetspot (you should just be edgehogging them at this point anyways)
Problem with the height sweetspot on the illusion is that it both grabs the edge extremely fast and is really hard to actually hit them because they're usually slightly below the ledge
Onstage edgeguarding sucks vs space animals anyway, you should be trying to go out there to hit them (probably already been discussed earlier in the thread)
Random:
Foxes who respond to you dashing toward the edge with an attempted illusion through you are foiled by a simple shorthop - if they try to illusion through you it's very easy to doublejump backward and stomp them in their landing lag...a strangely high number of Foxes I play have this habit and the doublejump back -> stomp has a surprising amount of range
It's more for situations where if they use their double jump they'll be within shortening range, but you can use hitstun / the time it takes to double jump to get on the ledge in time to getup attack in response to illusions
Dtilt doesn't hit them if they get the height sweetspot (somewhat difficult) or the length sweetspot (you should just be edgehogging them at this point anyways)
Problem with the height sweetspot on the illusion is that it both grabs the edge extremely fast and is really hard to actually hit them because they're usually slightly below the ledge
Onstage edgeguarding sucks vs space animals anyway, you should be trying to go out there to hit them (probably already been discussed earlier in the thread)
Random:
Foxes who respond to you dashing toward the edge with an attempted illusion through you are foiled by a simple shorthop - if they try to illusion through you it's very easy to doublejump backward and stomp them in their landing lag...a strangely high number of Foxes I play have this habit and the doublejump back -> stomp has a surprising amount of range
Kanelol
Smash Lord
maybe it's just me but i feel like d-tilt has so much lag that there's only like a 3% window where you can combo/edgeguard with it, otherwise they can either jump out or you're stuck in lag too long
DuckPimp
Smash Ace
i dont combo with it
and edgeguarding with it is simply learning to time it
and its not the hardest thing to learn to time
and edgeguarding with it is simply learning to time it
and its not the hardest thing to learn to time
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
Fox - (For all I know I don't main Falcon [thank god])
Uthrow chaingrabs work at higher % also working with Dtilt. I think you can also Uthrow knee at high %
You can grab out of his illusion and firefox.
Uthrow chaingrabs work at higher % also working with Dtilt. I think you can also Uthrow knee at high %
You can grab out of his illusion and firefox.
DuckPimp
Smash Ace
yes you can uthrow knee at high percent.
around 100 or something, not sure where it starts
this is why we need percents
around 100 or something, not sure where it starts
this is why we need percents
Aussierob123
Smash Champion
100 is uthrow fsmash, I think about 110 or 120ish is uthrow knee.
Not sure if this has been mentioned but when edgegaurding fox's who firefox onto the stage you can use invulnerability frames from a ledge hop knee to hit them OUT OF THE FIREFOX.
Hax does it all the time and I recently discovered that with proper timing you can edgegaurd fox with invulnerable reverse guaranteed knees all day.
Hax does it all the time and I recently discovered that with proper timing you can edgegaurd fox with invulnerable reverse guaranteed knees all day.