Falco Matchup Thread #34: Marth

clowsui

Smash Legend
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#41
What possessed me to spot dodge with Marth just sitting outside my FTilt range?
think about how you get to that situation in the first place

you spotdodge in spots that are useful

you spotdodge when attempting to avoid marth in his effective zone (e.g. sh fair, sh nair, dash db) or when you are performing a 2nd level read on his bait (e.g. instead of FF fairing on your block he just opts to "tomahawk"/land)

marth recognizes the situation and just walks into that range

bam
 

Blacknight99923

Smash Champion
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#42
think about how you get to that situation in the first place

you spotdodge in spots that are useful

you spotdodge when attempting to avoid marth in his effective zone (e.g. sh fair, sh nair, dash db) or when you are performing a 2nd level read on his bait (e.g. instead of FF fairing on your block he just opts to "tomahawk"/land)

marth recognizes the situation and just walks into that range

bam
This happens a lot.


Its pretty dumb.
 

#HBC | Ryker

Netplay Monstrosity
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#43
think about how you get to that situation in the first place

you spotdodge in spots that are useful

you spotdodge when attempting to avoid marth in his effective zone (e.g. sh fair, sh nair, dash db) or when you are performing a 2nd level read on his bait (e.g. instead of FF fairing on your block he just opts to "tomahawk"/land)

marth recognizes the situation and just walks into that range

bam
So he's predicting here, certainly not reacting.

And what does Marth do about rolling back or dashing back? You've still got the option to phantasm or throw a reflector if you think he's going to come in swinging. Or, he does something and you just spot dodge again.

What do you do whenever Marth finds that optimum range. You move so that you're no longer in it. That's hardly a devastating punish as it requires a follow-up read to produce a situation in which Marth will be successfully devastating your anus.
 

Blacknight99923

Smash Champion
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#44
So he's predicting here, certainly not reacting.

And what does Marth do about rolling back or dashing back? You've still got the option to phantasm or throw a reflector if you think he's going to come in swinging. Or, he does something and you just spot dodge again.

What do you do whenever Marth finds that optimum range. You move so that you're no longer in it. That's hardly a devastating punish as it requires a follow-up read to produce a situation in which Marth will be successfully devastating your anus.


Throw phantasm out vs marth

because his whole move set doesn't beat it.

lol @ throwing reflector out vs anyone.


I'm pretty sure if marth shields the reflector he can f smash tipper you on reaction.

Marth doesn't need to do anything about you rolling or dashing back. Falcos defensive options don't really beat marths spacing options, so if you dash back you lose stage control, if you roll back....you lose stage control.

no bueno :(
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,346
#45
I disagree with the match-up being in Marth's favor. Its close enough to simply settle with a neutral match-up argument.

He has range, but Falco has mobility to get around Marth's range just as Marth has the ability to mess around with Falco. Falco can control spacing more easily than Marth can with simply lasers being there. You simply do not want to get stuck in shield being poked at with aerials and tilts.

The only thing I really dislike about the match-up is the fact that marth has UpB on his side. Its horrible move to use if he misses, but it allows him to punish quite a few our of jab antics which usually work rather well on many, many characters. Jab -> shield for Falco is rather decent option against Marth because of this.
 

teluoborg

Smash Otter
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NNID
teloutre
#47
Everytime I play this matchup against Leon I end up getting CG spiked > side B*3 on recovery.

I don't know who said you could SDI that spike but I'd really like to see a vid, because from what I see you're just too far from the ledge and/or too low.
 

BluB

Smash Journeyman
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Crazy_Arni
#48
The spike after fthrow only works at low percent (0-7% or something like that)
When you are at 0% you just have to stay in the middle of the stage or on platforms until you have about 10%.
 

Pelca

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
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#49
if you keep playing like a champ, you will be a champ! Don't be afraid to taunt, this makes marth more aggressive. Just remember he is a girl and you are a bird. Then it's easy! F-air deff best option in this MU as often as possible, it's how I win!
 
Joined
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Freeahassee, FL
#50
if you keep playing like a champ, you will be a champ! Don't be afraid to taunt, this makes marth more aggressive. Just remember he is a girl and you are a bird. Then it's easy! F-air deff best option in this MU as often as possible, it's how I win!
Aint that some **** xD




So in general, the mu is keep-away? And what if you play a marth on AiB, what is some basic tips to keep-away from that fair and side-b?
 

SN Viper

Formerly 9th in FL PR
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#51
if you keep playing like a champ, you will be a champ! Don't be afraid to taunt, this makes marth more aggressive. Just remember he is a girl and you are a bird. Then it's easy! F-air deff best option in this MU as often as possible, it's how I win!
yo did MARLX like hack your account or somthing?
 
Joined
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Oslo, Norway
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#58
How to chaingrab marth

From 0 %: Dthrow -> side taunt (Don't try me) -> dolphin slash misses -> regrab -> repeat

No, but really. I can't see the big fuzz about switching out throws against marth. Complete the chaingrab, do some followup, continue dthrowing for bdacus, dacus or just running -> shield grab. All of these works.

Marth is hard, but can be made even-ish, as long as you are good at picking options. Masha makes a great example of how to play against marth, by simply doing the right options when pressured, because that's what you're gonna get against marth: pressured.

Gonna talk about a few pressured situations where you would normally have died, but are going to survive instead. Spoiler: This will not work online.

First it's probably the easiest one. The cg -> spike. Heck, people forget that you can SDI tipper moves like a GOD unless it's fsmash. Personally, my SDI is on and off. Either I get a perfect SDI, or I miss it completely and I get spiked with a bad reacted meteor cancel. I don't know if that's common, but i suggest mashing DSSDI at the ready when he's grabbing you and you know he's gonna spike you. Control stick til the right if you're on the left side, and on the left if you're on the right, and c-stick upwards (if he misses you will not be fairing to your death, but doing an uair that you can survive with).

Then, imagine that you're down there with him in the tough spot. Now here is the tricky part. Your tech skill must be good, but that's what you gotta expect to survive what people call "a guaranteed death". Personally, I use Y as shield due to tight spots like this. Fast power shield, fast techs etc.
You're banning lylat and marth is banning fd, so most likely, this will happen at either BF or SV. You are below the edge with a charging firebird, marth is holding the ledge. You WANT him to hit you against the wall, because when you tech jump, that's your save. But unfortunately, smart marths doesn't fair or up b you... yet. They use side b to interrupt your up b while spacing away as you fall down little by little. To survive this you can do one out of two things. Keep your finger on the shield button and NEVER CHOKE WITH AIR DODGE!
1: Mash up b. Keep a constant eye on marth for whether he's using his up b. Make sure to stand in his way from the up b and to the ledge, because that is your life. What sucks is that he's got another jump, but that shouldn't stop you from being in his path. Once he up b's you, DI up, tech jump and live your life as a free bird
2: This is also very tricky, and is very much about a spacing most marths won't expect at all. This counts as if you tech underneath a ceiling as well. Most people just flare up their wings and marth grabs the ledge with up b, even without hitting falco :( what you gotta do though, is spacing to the lowest point you can get underneath the ledge and still being able to reach it with up b. If you have found that point, you have a chance to survive, bro. Space down their as you just teched and your fall speed isn't that great. When you're that far down there is nothing marth dare touching you with, so he will up b back, most likely without hitting you. Your up b WILL hit him if he stays. Most marths will either stay and not believe falco can reach this high (it looks higher when the screen is zoomed in to one tiny spot), or he will try to intercept you last second, and fail. The smart marth will get back onstage before he gets fried by your firebird. Leon on the other hand, will spike on the way up before he dies himself though, so in that case there is no hope.

My pleasure.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Oslo, Norway
Switch FC
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#59
How to chaingrab marth

From 0 %: Dthrow -> side taunt (Don't try me) -> dolphin slash misses -> regrab -> repeat

No, but really. I can't see the big fuzz about switching out throws against marth. Complete the chaingrab, do some followup, continue dthrowing for bdacus, dacus or just running -> shield grab. All of these works.

Marth is hard, but can be made even-ish, as long as you are good at picking options. Masha makes a great example of how to play against marth, by simply doing the right options when pressured, because that's what you're gonna get against marth: pressured.

Gonna talk about a few pressured situations where you would normally have died, but are going to survive instead. Spoiler: This will not work online.

First it's probably the easiest one. The cg -> spike. Heck, people forget that you can SDI tipper moves like a GOD unless it's fsmash. Personally, my SDI is on and off. Either I get a perfect SDI, or I miss it completely and I get spiked with a bad reacted meteor cancel. I don't know if that's common, but i suggest mashing DSSDI at the ready when he's grabbing you and you know he's gonna spike you. Control stick til the right if you're on the left side, and on the left if you're on the right, and c-stick upwards (if he misses you will not be fairing to your death, but doing an uair that you can survive with).

Then, imagine that you're down there with him in the tough spot. Now here is the tricky part. Your tech skill must be good, but that's what you gotta expect to survive what people call "a guaranteed death". Personally, I use Y as shield due to tight spots like this. Fast power shield, fast techs etc.
You're banning lylat and marth is banning fd, so most likely, this will happen at either BF or SV. You are below the edge with a charging firebird, marth is holding the ledge. You WANT him to hit you against the wall, because when you tech jump, that's your save. But unfortunately, smart marths doesn't fair or up b you... yet. They use side b to interrupt your up b while spacing away as you fall down little by little. To survive this you can do one out of two things. Keep your finger on the shield button and NEVER CHOKE WITH AIR DODGE!
1: Mash up b. Keep a constant eye on marth for whether he's using his up b. Make sure to stand in his way from the up b and to the ledge, because that is your life. What sucks is that he's got another jump, but that shouldn't stop you from being in his path. Once he up b's you, DI up, tech jump and live your life as a free bird
2: This is also very tricky, and is very much about a spacing most marths won't expect at all. This counts as if you tech underneath a ceiling as well. Most people just flare up their wings and marth grabs the ledge with up b, even without hitting falco :( what you gotta do though, is spacing to the lowest point you can get underneath the ledge and still being able to reach it with up b. If you have found that point, you have a chance to survive, bro. Space down their as you just teched and your fall speed isn't that great. When you're that far down there is nothing marth dare touching you with, so he will up b back, most likely without hitting you. Your up b WILL hit him if he stays. Most marths will either stay and not believe falco can reach this high (it looks higher when the screen is zoomed in to one tiny spot), or he will try to intercept you last second, and fail. The smart marth will get back onstage before he gets fried by your firebird. Leon on the other hand, will spike on the way up before he dies himself though, so in that case there is no hope.

My pleasure.
 
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