Falco Matchup Thread #34: Marth

-DR3W-

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DrewTheAsher
#1


In this thread, post any contribution you have regarding the Marth matchup.

Keep these in mind when posting:
- What do we have against him?
- What to watch out for?
- Certain do's & don'ts
- Stage advantages and disadvantages.
- Any additional information or data necessary.
 

Trollby

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#2
Marth - He can cg us and rack up to like.. 50-60 percent damage or something close to that. He can EASILY gimp us due to our terrible recovery. He can also easily punish us if we try to Phantasm back on stage, so Falco is gonna have to be careful when he recovers. He's also able to easily escape out of our Cg so that absolutely sucks.

Falco - Camp, Camp, CAMP LIKE THERE'S NO TOMMORROW. Personally, I like to jab when he's at close range since it cancels out any options he has. I also like to take advantage of a few Dthrows before I stop and mix it up and use uthrow>reflector or something like that. Speaking of reflector, sometimes it's a good idea to keep him away from us. Also, we're able to somewhat juggle him in the air with utilt and if we're at a place like battlefield, NAIR is also quite useful. Basically, we have to be cautious when we approach Marth and try to stay away from him.

IMO, I think this matchup is pretty even, it depends on the player's knowledge of the MU, especially for Falco since he needs to be as safe as possible. (Sorry if this posts seems bad, I don't play many Marths and I'm new to this so I'm trying to do my best to contribute. )
 

MARLX

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#3
Tips: Marth has a cg from 0-37 (ending with a tipped fsmash.)

Marth also can take advantage of shield pressure with his fairs and take a stock without a problem.

Marth can up special out of Falco's chain grab. (To avoid this you need to buffer the cg.)

Basic does and don'ts in this MU: Camp when ever you can.
Take advantage in punishing wift moves.
Have stage control and only make hard reads.

Don't go agro because he will punish Falco in every way possible.
Don't go to stages that are small and uneven grounded also stages with platforms.

Stages you should take Marth to: Take Marth to SV because there is enough space for Falco to camp and a platform for recovery mix up and just used for a advantage.

Go to FD too there is really nothing Marth can do here because he doesn't have a platform to use and it is very easy for Falco to take advantage on the stage (Stock advantage.)

The rest of the stages have a lot of platforms and uneven grounding which is bad for Falco in this MU.
 

MasterOfGalaxies

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#4
Marth can fthrow>fthrow>spike, and then stage spike Falco's upb for a guaranteed kill at 0% if Falco's too close to the edge and gets grabbed. Marth will stay on the ground because lasers can stuff his jumps, so he will walk>dtilt and walk>shield as approaches a lot.
 

wendell

Smash Cadet
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#5
if he grab u ate 0% u`r ****ed,he has more range,is fast,and he can ub especial the jab,it`s hard to camp him to,i hate this mu,i try ddd/diddy against marth,so annoying/impossible mu for me
 

1PokeMastr

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#6
What did I just read ? Almost utter nonesense from everyone.
If he goes for a Stage spike.. you can Tech it.

I'm appalled at the first posts I read.

Anyway, I'll say how I play this Mu. And it works really really well for me.
- Boost Grab CG goes from 0 -> 43% + Follow Up.
- We can spot dodge his D-Throw CG if he isn't perfect.
- Use lasers to make him approach, but, once he's close enough, stay in his Face and give him little time to breathe.
- Stay out of Tipper range, this is what hurts Falco a lot. You need to stay in close where his tippers won't hit you.
- If he approaches you, don't be afraid to take a hit. Once you hit 6 - 7% you're in the safe Zone from the 0 - Death, you no longer have to fear it.

- Don't try to edge guard Marth, it's silly and just asking to get possibly stage spiked by Dolphin Slash.
- Stay out of range of his planking ability, while staying in the range where you can punish his get up options. Or just run to the other side of the stage and camp. ( Both are great ).
- Lasers don't affect Marth as they do for other characters.
- If you're going to Jab him. Never do Jab 1 -> Follow up. Always do Jab 2 -> Follow up, or go for a quick Multi hit Jab. Jab 1 -> 2 -> Multi hit ( Only press Jab 3 times on hit for Jab 1, 2 and 3 ) Don't hold the Multi hit Jab.

- Mix up your ledge and recovery options. He has a Plethora of things to punish us with. ( Most notably his Usmash dealing a whopping 18% fresh and un charged ).
- He can punish ANY Phantasm with Dancing Blade on Reaction.
- Then the common things that are said during ever Mu.

- Punish landings, air dodges, bait things, etc.
- Nothing is safe on Shield except our F-Tilt.

We can Punish a Short Fair Oos with Nair/ Dair if we Ps/If we Don't PS it.

Have questions ? Feel free to Pm me!
 

Zwei Striker

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#7
My input:

- I find short hop reflector to be really useful to create space every once in a while.
- He can tipper jab our phantasm > tipper fsmash, so, though you must not do this against anyone, it's really important against marth: DON'T PHANTASM PREDICTABLY
- If you are afraid to do the chaingrab, at least dthrow and usmash for damage.
- Remember he can Dolphin Slash out of shield, so play safe at high %.
- Learn to deal with Dancing blade; you can grab him between every hit, so keep that in mind.
- Even after chaingrab %, his grabs are dangerous (his fthrow, overall, puts you in the most horrible position).
- After using dtilt, most marths will try to dancing blade you. Jump fast.
 

ScareMl

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#8
What did I just read ? Almost utter nonesense from everyone.
If he goes for a Stage spike.. you can Tech it.
poke, if a good marth fthrow x2 -->dair on a falco, it's almost a guaranteed stock. You can tech a stage spike, but marth has so many options after that dair spike than just going for a ds stage spike. we can drop down and mix up the timing of the ds, making it harder to tech, we can db1-->ds to mess up their timing, db1---> fair and gimp them, ledgehog them, etc.. Falco will die if he gets grabbed near the edge at 0%.

another thing from the marth perspective: when we get cged by a falco at 0%, some marths will not use ds because they want to keep falco at 0% in order to get the 40-50% damage or even fthrow x2 -->dair gimp, just a thought.
 

Trollby

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#9
poke, if a good marth fthrow x2 -->dair on a falco, it's almost a guaranteed stock. You can tech a stage spike, but marth has so many options after that dair spike than just going for a ds stage spike. we can drop down and mix up the timing of the ds, making it harder to tech, we can db1-->ds to mess up their timing, db1---> fair and gimp them, ledgehog them, etc.. Falco will die if he gets grabbed near the edge at 0%.

another thing from the marth perspective: when we get cged by a falco at 0%, some marths will not use ds because they want to keep falco at 0% in order to get the 40-50% damage or even fthrow x2 -->dair gimp, just a thought.
^^^^ Well, at least someone knows. That's definitely right, Marth has more options than just Dolphin Slash and I'm pretty sure I seldom get DS Stage spiked and that Falco's recovery is easily edgehogged anyways because of it's terrible range, but at least you can curve it and pivot so that perhaps it'll hit the opponent and re-grab the ledge.
 

DLA

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DLAhhh
#10
I just sDI the Dair back onstage.

Other tips... Punishing landings is important because Marth doesn't have good options when his opponent is below him.

Also watch Gluttony vs Leon in your video thread... Gluttony plays this matchup very well, and very aggressively might I add. Basically what you should know about it is that Gluttony applies pressure by running up to Marth and shielding just out of range of Marth's standing grab. At this range Marth can pretty much only attack Falco's shield, which is often punishable.

Basically your objective is to pop Marth into the air as much as possible, and then punish his landings. At least how I see it.

Or you can just be cheesy and camp I guess

:phone:
 

PEACE7

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#11
I agree with DLA just sDI the dair back onto the stage this works best if you use both sticks.
Been at 0% and getting grabbed leads to a lot of damage depending on the choice of chaingrab either 37% or 42%.
When falco is at 13% or 17% we can dthrow to tipper smash.
Also Fthrow x2-> dthrow x3-> fsmash/DB
If the falco uses reflector and we counter it but the counter doesn't hit falco, the falco gets a stun jacket meaning that any attack from marth will cause him to get stunned and get hit by another move most likely a smash attack.
Marth gets gr to dancing blade if he struggles out of a grab. ( I also believe we can get gr to spike even tho the timing might be really ****ing strict)
Falco has a really hard time making it back onto stage we can jab your phantasm comboing to other stuff, marths best options imo are jab and ftilt to stop it although if we predict your landing on the stage your eating a smash attack.
If the falco messes up the chaingrab we can upB out of it, altho smart falcos will bait this > shield our upB >to ****
There's plenty of more stuff ill post more.
 

Blacknight99923

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#13
I actually disagree with a camping approuch to this mu. Marth has more powerful mid range zoning than we do which lets him approuch us if we're jumping firing lasers.


Getting grabbed by marth at 0 percent is still very scary, even if we SDI the dair he can still dthrow us like 10 times and f smash. I think this match up requires falco to have relatively flawless tech skill and a good understanding of where each characters do not have hitboxes.

I think falcos goal in this match up should be to get the center of the stage and use the positioning to force marth into unfavorable positions. I think SHDL is best used when you think marth will jump (but not when he's right next to you). Using your shield (and oos options), ftilt, smart lasers, bair, spotdodge ect are all going to be very important when hitting marth. But we really do not want marth to dominate the zoning. While its beatable if we're not on the sides its very difficult for falco to forcefully challenge marths nair in my experience (if someone knows a way I'm all ears though, so PLEASE POST!!!!)

Larry and fiction say to beat marth you wait for marth to swing his sword and then you hit him.


Also when you are landing in this mu there is almost no reason NOT to land with a silent laser (provided marth isn't in a position to hit you before you hit the ground). I mean it gives you a frame advantage LOLOLOLOL. Marth can't reflect or absorb it so if marth isn't in an immediate position to hit you it doesn't make a lot of sense NOT to land with it.


A lot of things marth has in this match up are really stressful so I think its very important for falcos to be able to consitently do the following things.

The ability to CG marth-I mean its bread and butter damage FOR FREEEEEE, that extra 40 percent we get could be the difference between winning and losing.

SDing out of marths side b- I saw FOW do this to mikehaze in the recent champion videos. (here is the link). I think its really important for falco players to get good at this, unlike our jab cancels marth doesn't really have options if he side b's except to continue it (except for gimmicks). Being able to avoid the last hit is really important since marths side b can send us off stage which is like the worst situation to be in in this match up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_UrdfPEQRg

SDIng the dair on the cg-This could literally save you a stock, I mean you're GOING to get grabbed one day at 0 percent, plus the skills learning how to SDI this move will help you in other match ups like the ditto.


Juggling/not getting juggled.


When you are juggling marth I think up air is better than bair becasue of marths horrid down air. But that doesn't mean bair is bad, it just means if you're going to jump at marth trying getting under him and up airing.

Bair does however beat a lot of marths aerials.

But since our up air and dash speed aren't quite as good as metaknights we'll probably be hitting marth more as he's landing. Things like shielding, dash attacking, F smash work fairly well here. But becareful that you don't get swatted by marths aerials, marths will usually default to their nair or fair when landing before they default to airdodges if you are coming at them from the side.

Getting hit by marth kinda sucks, but if you can help it move yourself out of his fair range. Its going to be very important that you mix it up with attacks, double jumps delayed attacks, delayed airdodges, airdodges ect keep marth guessing.


Recoverying/edge guarding


RECOVERYING VS MARTH SUCKSSSSSSSS.
Don't put yourself in situations where you need to recover.
Let me repeat, try to avoid this situation all together, MARTH SHOULD BE HITTING YOU IN THIS SITUATION!!!!!!!!.

However since we're all eventually going to be put off stage there are a few ground rules.

Don't side b at the same time.

IMA REPEAT DON'T SIDE B AT THE SAME TIME.

Even if you do dumb side b's its better to mix it up than let the marth predict when you're going to side b and WHERE you are going to side b. This is pretty much true for every match up.

Try to save your double jump, and always keep in mind when you used it.


When edgeguarding marth I believe your goal should be to tack on as much free damage as possible. When he's recovering above the stage thats free lasers, shoot him. If he has RCO lag, shield (since he'll basically be forced to aerial) and hit him afterward.

There are otherwise to gimp marth however they all have some risk. One way is with a read grab the ledge and edge hop dair.

Our dair>his up B.

You might be asking why? Marths up B has invincibility. However it only has invince on start up which means any of our disjointed aerials will hit marth while he's moving upward. Ledge drop bair can work nicely (but you also run the risk of being stage spiked.


ALWAYS REMEMBER WHEN MARTH BURNS HIS DOUBLE JUMPP!!!!!!!!
I've recently been working on Falcos slow fall dair in this mu. you can hit marth out of his up b pretty easily with it but the only problem is making sure marth actually up bs when you're dairing. Unlike diddy who has an animation before the up b marth doesn't really. Within the next few days I'll be working on edgeguarding marth and will post some of my findings.


Stages

I think our best stages go BF SV FD, Delfino and frigate seem pretty up in the air. i think the transformation on frigate hurts both characters a lot(and it has a lower ceiling) where as delfino has some transformations that help falco a bit (like ones with lower ceilings).

I think BF is better than FD because I don't think we're really going to be able to out camp marth, and marth's 0 percent grab game on us is pretty strong. FD doesn't help us juggle but BF does (and marth doesn't need platforms to juggle us on).

Any stage I didn't mention I'd probably avoid. I'd also like to add that best stages are very subjective, a lot of it is personal preference of the player. So in the end I really think you should ban and counterpick whatever stages you are most comfortable with.

tl;dr
Get stage control
Don't camp like a ******, you'll lose stage control, you camp if it helps you maintain control over the center.
Learn all the technical aspects such as CGing marth, SDiing his side b and dair
Making sure to be smart about mix ups when recovering
Listen to this while playing in tournament sets http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoMrkPLBuCs

Edit if you disagree with anything I said PLEASE POST I CARE MORE ABOUT FALCOS AND MYSELF IMPROVING THAN I DO ABOUT BEING RIGHT!!!.
 

DLA

"Their anguish was my nourishment."
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DLAhhh
#14
I don't really like the idea of trying to juggle with Uair, especially against Marth... It's just way too hard to hit with, the reward isn't great, and if you miss, Marth is probably going to get to the ground before you and now he gets to punish YOUR landing.

IMO you should either Bair him or punish him as he's landing... Those two options make for a very nice mixup.

:phone:
 

Blacknight99923

Smash Champion
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#15
I don't really like the idea of trying to juggle with Uair, especially against Marth... It's just way too hard to hit with, the reward isn't great, and if you miss, Marth is probably going to get to the ground before you and now he gets to punish YOUR landing.

IMO you should either Bair him or punish him as he's landing... Those two options make for a very nice mixup.

:phone:
So after reading this I decided to watch a bunch of videos.

I think uair is better in that one situation where you can guarantee yourself the punish no matter what, otherwise I agree with you now, bair is usually better.
 

clowsui

Brawl Backroom Member
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#17
Just wanted to say any Leon video is like...not a good guide to a matchup because Leon's style is so much based on reads lol

This matchup is even or +1 for Marth - everyone else has really said what I wanted to say. You really need to avoid getting hit by Marth in this matchup. Marth can and will generate a lot of pressure off of one hit at most percents. Keep in mind that Marth's mobility allows him to punish a lot of conventional camping patterns using laser and side b so you really have to work hard to bait with those moves.

When Marth is on the ledge you need to initiate the ledge trap properly. Stand on the inside edge of either one of the side BF plats (that's the distance) and proceed to mix up shooting single/double lasers, empty hopping and standing still. Marth has a real hard time beating that reactionary ledge trap from Falco esp when he has RCO lag
 

-Cross-

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#18
SDing out of marths side b- I saw FOW do this to mikehaze in the recent champion videos. (here is the link). I think its really important for falco players to get good at this, unlike our jab cancels marth doesn't really have options if he side b's except to continue it (except for gimmicks). Being able to avoid the last hit is really important since marths side b can send us off stage which is like the worst situation to be in in this match up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_UrdfPEQRg
Yo Soren, if you don't mind me asking, where exactly does FOW SDI Mike's DB? I would rather not search through the whole video, and not know which specific instance you would be referring too.

Also another reason why you wouldn't want to juggle with uair is because Marth's dair is fast (although it has horrendous post lag) and disjointed. Falco's uair is not as fast and not as disjointed, so by doing uair, you have a very real possibility of the Marth reacting and at least trading hits with uair. Uair only gives you solid frame advantage if he air dodges, and you know he will air dodge. For this reason bair (as you have already pointed out) is better, because bair comes out during the ascension of your jump, so Marth would not have as much time to react and try to dair your approach.

Also let's just clear up another misconception about Falco and camping. Falco is NOT a purely camping character. Why? Because if your damage output is coming primarily from lasers and illusions. Then you'll be dealing almost no damage. Aside from pathetic damage output, you'll also be staling your lasers which will further reduce followup/combo capabilities, which you do not want to do either. So please remember, camp but also followup with links from your lasers.

Regarding BF vs FD, I'm also with Blacknight on this one. Aside from the benefits for juggling/getting out of juggles, you also gain more recovery options with BF. Also camping under a platform eliminates a couple angles from which Marth can approach you which is also a bonus.

I also have one question. People keep saying SDI Marth's dair after his CG. But the thing is I never see pros do this. Maybe I just haven't watched enough videos, but if this is indeed possible, then why have I yet to see a Falco SDI Marth's dair (to the extent that they will completely avoid going off stage)?
 

#HBC | Ryker

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#21
Something that I can add that hasn't been touched on much: spot dodge a lot. It's a really good option against Marth because the only lasting hitbox he has is dancing blade down finish and that's not realistic. Other than that, he can throw a sideB or a nair in an attempt to punish it or just time it really, really well which is very difficult to do on the fly.
 

Blacknight99923

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#23
Something that I can add that hasn't been touched on much: spot dodge a lot. It's a really good option against Marth because the only lasting hitbox he has is dancing blade down finish and that's not realistic. Other than that, he can throw a sideB or a nair in an attempt to punish it or just time it really, really well which is very difficult to do on the fly.
It is really risky to throw out spotdodges against marth imo.


basically clowsui said it.


When you take defensive actions like spotdodge shield roll shield or airdodge against marth it is very difficult to still actually PUNISH HIM if he's spacing his attacks correctly.
 

-DR3W-

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DrewTheAsher
#24
Telling Falco players to spotdodge even more than they already do is a death wish waiting to happen.

It's hella risky against any player or any character. Don't try to add it even more.

:phone:
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
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#25
Spotdodging against Marth is perfectly valid.

This matchup is a lot of back air and dash attack. Ftilt can be cool.

Learn to edgeguard Marth, bair his upB's. Laser only to limit options, don't camp with lasers. Camp with sideB and boxing-styled keepaway. Limit jabs and grabs, your best throw here is bthrow or fthrow. Dthrow isn't that good.
 

-Cross-

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#26
What are you talking about? D-throw is still good. You still have all the followups after CG %'s that you would have against any other character.
 

-Cross-

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#28
If you have a legitimate reason for why b-throw/f-throw are superior then please share it >_>. Don't just say "k" lol
 

clowsui

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#29
for the most part i agree w ramses/xonar (think f/bthrow are better at higher percents, dthrow around lower is OK), here's my take

bthrow pops him farther up, fthrow has less variability and sends him to the ledge every time or at least low to the ground so you can pressure. if you want to put him upwards just use bthrow lol. there's the logic

i also think he broke it down the most simply. dash attack + bair to punish, laser as frame trap not as camp tool (which is what it's best used as in most matchups anyways), box marth when you can for damage
 
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#30
I actually disagree with a camping approuch to this mu. Marth has more powerful mid range zoning than we do which lets him approuch us if we're jumping firing lasers.


Getting grabbed by marth at 0 percent is still very scary, even if we SDI the dair he can still dthrow us like 10 times and f smash. I think this match up requires falco to have relatively flawless tech skill and a good understanding of where each characters do not have hitboxes.

I think falcos goal in this match up should be to get the center of the stage and use the positioning to force marth into unfavorable positions. I think SHDL is best used when you think marth will jump (but not when he's right next to you). Using your shield (and oos options), ftilt, smart lasers, bair, spotdodge ect are all going to be very important when hitting marth. But we really do not want marth to dominate the zoning. While its beatable if we're not on the sides its very difficult for falco to forcefully challenge marths nair in my experience (if someone knows a way I'm all ears though, so PLEASE POST!!!!)

Larry and fiction say to beat marth you wait for marth to swing his sword and then you hit him.


Also when you are landing in this mu there is almost no reason NOT to land with a silent laser (provided marth isn't in a position to hit you before you hit the ground). I mean it gives you a frame advantage LOLOLOLOL. Marth can't reflect or absorb it so if marth isn't in an immediate position to hit you it doesn't make a lot of sense NOT to land with it.


A lot of things marth has in this match up are really stressful so I think its very important for falcos to be able to consitently do the following things.

The ability to CG marth-I mean its bread and butter damage FOR FREEEEEE, that extra 40 percent we get could be the difference between winning and losing.

SDing out of marths side b- I saw FOW do this to mikehaze in the recent champion videos. (here is the link). I think its really important for falco players to get good at this, unlike our jab cancels marth doesn't really have options if he side b's except to continue it (except for gimmicks). Being able to avoid the last hit is really important since marths side b can send us off stage which is like the worst situation to be in in this match up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_UrdfPEQRg

SDIng the dair on the cg-This could literally save you a stock, I mean you're GOING to get grabbed one day at 0 percent, plus the skills learning how to SDI this move will help you in other match ups like the ditto.


Juggling/not getting juggled.


When you are juggling marth I think up air is better than bair becasue of marths horrid down air. But that doesn't mean bair is bad, it just means if you're going to jump at marth trying getting under him and up airing.

Bair does however beat a lot of marths aerials.

But since our up air and dash speed aren't quite as good as metaknights we'll probably be hitting marth more as he's landing. Things like shielding, dash attacking, F smash work fairly well here. But becareful that you don't get swatted by marths aerials, marths will usually default to their nair or fair when landing before they default to airdodges if you are coming at them from the side.

Getting hit by marth kinda sucks, but if you can help it move yourself out of his fair range. Its going to be very important that you mix it up with attacks, double jumps delayed attacks, delayed airdodges, airdodges ect keep marth guessing.


Recoverying/edge guarding


RECOVERYING VS MARTH SUCKSSSSSSSS.
Don't put yourself in situations where you need to recover.
Let me repeat, try to avoid this situation all together, MARTH SHOULD BE HITTING YOU IN THIS SITUATION!!!!!!!!.

However since we're all eventually going to be put off stage there are a few ground rules.

Don't side b at the same time.

IMA REPEAT DON'T SIDE B AT THE SAME TIME.

Even if you do dumb side b's its better to mix it up than let the marth predict when you're going to side b and WHERE you are going to side b. This is pretty much true for every match up.

Try to save your double jump, and always keep in mind when you used it.


When edgeguarding marth I believe your goal should be to tack on as much free damage as possible. When he's recovering above the stage thats free lasers, shoot him. If he has RCO lag, shield (since he'll basically be forced to aerial) and hit him afterward.

There are otherwise to gimp marth however they all have some risk. One way is with a read grab the ledge and edge hop dair.

Our dair>his up B.

You might be asking why? Marths up B has invincibility. However it only has invince on start up which means any of our disjointed aerials will hit marth while he's moving upward. Ledge drop bair can work nicely (but you also run the risk of being stage spiked.


ALWAYS REMEMBER WHEN MARTH BURNS HIS DOUBLE JUMPP!!!!!!!!
I've recently been working on Falcos slow fall dair in this mu. you can hit marth out of his up b pretty easily with it but the only problem is making sure marth actually up bs when you're dairing. Unlike diddy who has an animation before the up b marth doesn't really. Within the next few days I'll be working on edgeguarding marth and will post some of my findings.


Stages

I think our best stages go BF SV FD, Delfino and frigate seem pretty up in the air. i think the transformation on frigate hurts both characters a lot(and it has a lower ceiling) where as delfino has some transformations that help falco a bit (like ones with lower ceilings).

I think BF is better than FD because I don't think we're really going to be able to out camp marth, and marth's 0 percent grab game on us is pretty strong. FD doesn't help us juggle but BF does (and marth doesn't need platforms to juggle us on).

Any stage I didn't mention I'd probably avoid. I'd also like to add that best stages are very subjective, a lot of it is personal preference of the player. So in the end I really think you should ban and counterpick whatever stages you are most comfortable with.

tl;dr
Get stage control
Don't camp like a ******, you'll lose stage control, you camp if it helps you maintain control over the center.
Learn all the technical aspects such as CGing marth, SDiing his side b and dair
Making sure to be smart about mix ups when recovering
Listen to this while playing in tournament sets http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoMrkPLBuCs

Edit if you disagree with anything I said PLEASE POST I CARE MORE ABOUT FALCOS AND MYSELF IMPROVING THAN I DO ABOUT BEING RIGHT!!!.




I could not make it to the end before ****ing :o

And then I cleaned up and finished reading it all.
 

-Cross-

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 12, 2008
Messages
777
Location
NJ
#32
for the most part i agree w ramses/xonar (think f/bthrow are better at higher percents, dthrow around lower is OK), here's my take

bthrow pops him farther up, fthrow has less variability and sends him to the ledge every time or at least low to the ground so you can pressure. if you want to put him upwards just use bthrow lol. there's the logic

i also think he broke it down the most simply. dash attack + bair to punish, laser as frame trap not as camp tool (which is what it's best used as in most matchups anyways), box marth when you can for damage
Yeah, I see, but I don't think that qualifies to say that d-throw isn't good in the MU. D-throw is DI dependent more so than fthrow, but if you're near the ledge they either DI up or DI away. DI up and you can FH bair, DI away and they have to go to the ledge. Either way, just cover their DI option toward you, and if they DI'd away you still accomplished what you wanted f-throw to do.

I could not make it to the end before ****ing :o

And then I cleaned up and finished reading it all.
Do I really need to know this?

What ratio would you guys put on this?
Advantage Marth or are we still talking around even~ish MU?
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
Joined
Jan 12, 2009
Messages
9,792
Location
Land of Nether
#33
for the most part i agree w ramses/xonar (think f/bthrow are better at higher percents, dthrow around lower is OK), here's my take

bthrow pops him farther up, fthrow has less variability and sends him to the ledge every time or at least low to the ground so you can pressure. if you want to put him upwards just use bthrow lol. there's the logic

i also think he broke it down the most simply. dash attack + bair to punish, laser as frame trap not as camp tool (which is what it's best used as in most matchups anyways), box marth when you can for damage
Yay, people calling me by my first name :bee:

bthrow > shdl > free punish, pretty guarenteed

Marth advantage. Definitely. Avoid FD at all costs, best stages to go are BF and SV, except if you play against mikehaze or Mr R, then just go BF :awesome:
 

-Cross-

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 12, 2008
Messages
777
Location
NJ
#34
b-throw > shdl? Are we hitting Marth out of a second jump which is why we get a free punish? Or are you talking about something else? Also what would you guys say about Delfino? Water saves us from auto death and they could screw up while trying to spike us again.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
Joined
Jan 12, 2009
Messages
9,792
Location
Land of Nether
#35
Avoid Delfino, ledge sucks, overall stage is pretty ugh. You want BF, platform recovery mixups. Alternatively go Yoshi's.

He double jumps, gets caught.
He falls, gets lasers.
He attacks, gets lasers.

Best way out is upBing asap.
 

Blacknight99923

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
2,315
Location
UCLA
#36
I think the match up is marths favor.

Marth has better stages and more , generally better punishes, and most importantly a sword
 

1PokeMastr

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
2,252
#37
Link has a Sword. He is not better.
TLink has a Sword, He still isn't better.
Pit has sissy swords.

But, yeah, this is in Marth's favour.
 
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