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Falco Matchup #7: Bowser

teluoborg

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Well you asked for it :
-"Bowser can't come back from the ledge past 100%" you probably haven't heard of airdodge>fortress, which Falco's only options to beat are either punish the 3 frames "non invincible" window or outspace it. Punishing it means you have to commit and outspacing it means you have to get away from the ledge, if you don't see the mixups here I can't help you.

-"abuse shine OOS/in the air" shine puts you at a disadvantage if it doesn't make the opponent trip. So yeah, pro advice to say "abuse something that has a 1/2 chance of getting punished if it hits".
-"Bowser needs the platforms to not automatically die offstage." What. Have you ever heard of zoning.

-">implying multiple times Falco auto gives Bowser 100% damage". Pro theorycrafting here.

-"Main question is when Bowser is ever landing SideB." If you take it like this then no one should ever land a 12+ frames move, as everything past this limit can be reacted to. What I mean is logic only gets you so far if you don't take all the parameters into account, and shunting players' reading ability and mixups is just shunting 50% of the gameplay of Brawl (hence what I refer to as "the worst kind of theorycrafting").

-Another serious issue is that you both make an elegy of the game "how it should be played successfully" and spit in the face of competitive players (who actually play the game successfully) at the same time.
Then when attacked on your lack of experience you counter it with autosufficiency, which is imo the last thing someone experienced or knowledgeable would use.
And then finally, when I point out your autosufficiency come the insults. I never claimed to be the boss of this matchup, if you actually read my posts I used my lack of experience to prove a point.
I never said I was a top player and I never said I agreed with Adumbrodeus on that unrelated thread you keep on bringing back, I merely used one of his arguments to my extent.

Last piece of advice : this is a competitive community, you are presumed bad until vids or tournament result prove the contrary. Accepting this is called humility, denying it only gets you where you are now.
 

Cassius.

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what does that have to do with the bowser vs falco matchup...

irrelevant post go
 

Conviction

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-______-

Think about it for a little. You guys were questioning his knowledge. The video I linked was his discovery, evidence for he might know what he is talking about.

Not thinking about what he might have been saying post go!
 

teluoborg

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Yeah he found a tech chase with GW, that must make him knowledgeable about the Falco/Bowser matchup.

Is that Inui logic applied to theorycraft ?
 

Flayl

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-______-

Think about it for a little. You guys were questioning his knowledge. The video I linked was his discovery, evidence for he might know what he is talking about.

Not thinking about what he might have been saying post go!
I discover stuff about Bowser all the time, does this mean if I started posting conjecture on the Fox VS Falco matchup everybody should take my posts at face value?

I didn't know matchup discussions worked that way!
 

Conviction

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Nah son, I'm saying that he just doesn't pull stuff out his ***. All the time.

Inui logic in theorycraft would be **** though.
 

A2ZOMG

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Well you asked for it :
-"Bowser can't come back from the ledge past 100%" you probably haven't heard of airdodge>fortress, which Falco's only options to beat are either punish the 3 frames "non invincible" window or outspace it. Punishing it means you have to commit and outspacing it means you have to get away from the ledge, if you don't see the mixups here I can't help you.
Airdodge fortress sucks and I'm upset that I get away with it in friendlies because it's EXTREMELY obvious.

Also Bowser more likely has 6 frames of landing lag when doing that. Also it's not hard to time F-smash or B-air to beat any getup due to the lingering frames. You never need to worry about Bowser's ledge attack because it's extremely easy to react to anyway. Same with his ledgestand and ledgejump. The only one that is kinda hard to read his his ledgeroll, but Falco's gigantic F-smash actually can cover that as well as his ledgestand at the same time.

-"abuse shine OOS/in the air" shine puts you at a disadvantage if it doesn't make the opponent trip. So yeah, pro advice to say "abuse something that has a 1/2 chance of getting punished if it hits".
If it's spaced, Bowser isn't going to be in range to punish it. Doesn't matter that it's disadvantageous on hit if it's pushing you away from Falco far enough to keep him safe.

-"Bowser needs the platforms to not automatically die offstage." What. Have you ever heard of zoning.
Do you even know what zoning is? The point is without platforms, Bowser has no landing options. And without real landing options, Bowser can't recover, since you can simply send him back offstage again until he dies.

-">implying multiple times Falco auto gives Bowser 100% damage". Pro theorycrafting here.
When did I imply that Falco automatically gives Bowser 100%? I simply said that due to Falco's control game and combos, it's very easy for him to do that, and the matchup instantly becomes worse for Bowser once he's in that range.

-"Main question is when Bowser is ever landing SideB." If you take it like this then no one should ever land a 12+ frames move, as everything past this limit can be reacted to. What I mean is logic only gets you so far if you don't take all the parameters into account, and shunting players' reading ability and mixups is just shunting 50% of the gameplay of Brawl (hence what I refer to as "the worst kind of theorycrafting").
Air Klaw is 17 frames, and Bowser's jump is around like 7 or so frames, and this is not taking into account the time Bowser spends spacing. If you're not anti-airing that **** on reaction with high priority aerials or jump + Shine, you not playing right. Sorry.

-Another serious issue is that you both make an elegy of the game "how it should be played successfully" and spit in the face of competitive players (who actually play the game successfully) at the same time.
I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE UNLESS YOU EXPLAIN LOGICALLY WHY IT WORKS.

Then when attacked on your lack of experience you counter it with autosufficiency, which is imo the last thing someone experienced or knowledgeable would use.
And then finally, when I point out your autosufficiency come the insults. I never claimed to be the boss of this matchup, if you actually read my posts I used my lack of experience to prove a point.
I never said I was a top player and I never said I agreed with Adumbrodeus on that unrelated thread you keep on bringing back, I merely used one of his arguments to my extent.
So? How does this change that until now, you haven't even ATTEMPTED to use logical debate in order to refute my points?

Last piece of advice : this is a competitive community, you are presumed bad until vids or tournament result prove the contrary. Accepting this is called humility, denying it only gets you where you are now.
This is why matchup discussions suck. People assume you have to be good to know what matters. There's something called analysis that a lot of good players actually suck at because that's not their thing.

A little off topic, but A2 weren't you the guy who about a year ago swore up and down that Ike was the 3rd worst character in brawl?
Opinion changed slightly. Ike is 4th worst. Zelda, Bowser, and Ganon are worse characters than him.
 

Chuee

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I thought you guys would have realised by now to ignore anything A2Z says about Bowser or Ike.
 

Cassius.

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ike is fourth worst?

lol k im done here. drew do you really need a summary? just quote/paste everything relevant here...
 

A2ZOMG

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I had your back A2Z until you said the Ike thing...good luck homie lol
Not my problem if you don't understand how easy he is to pick apart. He can only kill you reasonably if your reaction time or landing options are flat out terrible, the latter of which happens to be the case for the three characters worse than him. He's extremely easy to edgeguard once you learn to abuse ledge invincibility. And his Jab isn't failsafe in a game where sliding shield is extremely strong in this game. He's one of a number of characters that legitimately can't really do anything to stop you from platform camping him on a lead either, probably in the top 3 of easiest characters to platform camp against effectively.
 

Gamegenie222

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This Mu thread has been going off topic and needs to stop. I say that the MU is 65-35 Falco/Bowser that is all.
 

teluoborg

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Well I'm not even sure if A2 knows what logic means anymore, so I'm stopping my participation to this debate with some corrections to his incorrect claims.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=252451
Bowser has 2 frames of landing lag between his airdodge and his upB

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187546
Falco's down B has between 37 and 47 frames of ending lag. It's more than enough for Bowser to get out of hitstun and close the frame trap.

Air Klaw is 17 frames, and Bowser's jump is around like 7 or so frames, and this is not taking into account the time Bowser spends spacing. If you're not anti-airing that **** on reaction with high priority aerials or jump + Shine, you not playing right. Sorry.
Thinking that aerials have priority and that Falco can punish each and every of Bowser's empty SHs proves you don't fully understand how this game works. So there : http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=16108
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Priority


In my very limited opinion both characters have answers to each other's options, but it's easier and safer for Falco to use his options.
Hence 6-4 Falco's favor.
 
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