Falco Matchup #4: Jigglypuff

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Ah thanks for hunting those down guys.

Also.
Match 3, rest kill. Killed at 72%...
The very minimum percent.
How lucky pro.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Really, rest kills at 72% minimum? Who cares if you can get rested out of stuff, the risk is so high for such a moderate reward people might not even consider using it even if they could.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

The wording in that statement made me confused.

And no, on falco the minimum is 72%. I just realized that watching my video with Viper, and looking back at my MU thread.

 

[Keitaro]

Really, rest kills at 72% minimum? Who cares if you can get rested out of stuff, the risk is so high for such a moderate reward people might not even consider using it even if they could.

If the Jiggs is at lower percents and the opponent is at the percent for rest to kill I'd say its worth it.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNkwk3dWVMQ&feature=feedu

This is the only vid I have of me vs Mink, and unfortunately, it was one that was really one-sided ._. Believe me, he beat me in another game, guys. I know it's just a friendly/not much, but I guess you can take a thing or two from the vid lol. (like fsmash killing at %90 after charged slightly from the middle of PS1 or w/e) Besides, it's nice to see another Falco (who isn't Viper) playing the matchup.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Really, rest kills at 72% minimum? Who cares if you can get rested out of stuff, the risk is so high for such a moderate reward people might not even consider using it even if they could.

Rest is one of the best moves in the game, don't be silly

/notsarcasm

Very fast, KOs early and has invicibility. Saying it's bad is like saying Tornado is bad because it can put you into special fall off-stage, it's not the attack that's bad, it's the player.

 

[swordsaint]

grim, you're smart most of the time even though your views are very different to people but that there is dumb. theres no comparison, the risk/reward of rest is not high. It's initial hitbox may be fast, but if you miss you're likely screwed.

The hitbox is tiny as well, and sometimes it misses even though you think it shouldn't. Rest is not a good move if its only non-risky application is against like a missed warlock punch.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Don't miss.

You don't have to spam it, just only ever use it when it's safe and you'll never have to deal with the move's bad aspect (ending lag).

 

[swordsaint]

i guess ganons warlock punch is an amazing move then so long as i use it right and don't miss? It hit so I won't have to deal with the lag.

but i see what you're saying. however what you're saying can apply to like, every move. It really doesn't make it a good move, theres a human factor involved firstly, but again it DOES have risk. You can't just blatantly ignore that lag it has on the end because you say you 'won't miss'.

what you're saying further makes rest even more situational, and still laggy if it misses so while its reward is decent, its risk is worse. I repeat that so much but theres really nothing else to say. the move itself is bad, it has a lot of cooldown.

Both sides are 'if you miss, or if you hit'. so many ifs.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I stand by what I said, Rest is VERY good. I'm sure some other Puffs will back me up on this. Though yes, in retrospect, my example was dumb, sorry.

 

[swordsaint]

just to be clear (for my own sake mostly) when i say something you said was dumb I'm not calling you dumb. be cool mason.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I know Scott <3

Anyway... back to the topic at hand...

I think the MU is +1 Falco's favour due to his fast jab, ability to KO Puff quite early and the amount of close-combat options he has in comparison to Puff.

Unless there is no LGL, in which case it is a +2 Jigglypuff.

 

[swordsaint]

i think we should always assume ledge grab limit or legitimate play otherwise **** playing falco who would have no positive matchup in the game. >_>

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Just like how Ganondorf's MUs assume he is allowed to have a free Warlock Punch at the beginning of every game

/not a fan of global LGL + biased Puff main

 

[Gamegenie222]

So what about the ratio for this MU 55-45 Falco or 60-40 Falco?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The difference between them is negligible, but 60:40 if I had to choose out of those.

 

[Keitaro]

I'd say 60-40 also. I hate fighting Jiggs but I still think its decently in Falco's favor. It was only one match but DJ Jack just completely did almost everything right vs Jiggs lol I was astonished. While watching Viper vs Mink I saw Viper doing many things wrong like approaching, fishing for kills, and not spacing the Jiggs out.

The way Viper was playing can still beat Jiggs but its not the best option when you have jabs, bairs, forward bs, etc to keep Jiggs away.

 

[Linkvader]

So, we are thinking 60-40 Falco? Next MU please.

 

[Gamegenie222]

If people are hell bent on this MU being 60-40, then I'll start the next MU discussion in a few hours. Just wanted to make sure everyone is agreed on this before proceeding.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I'd say 55.
But go with the majority. It's slight advantage.
Also, rest is a good move.
If it wasn't for rest i wouldn't have beaten big lou game 2.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Rest is one of the best moves in the game, don't be silly

/notsarcasm

Very fast, KOs early and has invicibility. Saying it's bad is like saying Tornado is bad because it can put you into special fall off-stage, it's not the attack that's bad, it's the player.

Rest is a better move than many in this game, but it's traits put it up for debate about when its good to use as we are doing now. Hearing that it kills as high as 70% on one of the lightest characters really makes me question how useful this move is in a match against falco.

Say you do hit with it. You get a good 15% of damage, and some extra damage. I believe the damage varies depending upon how much moving around you are doing. Opponent at low percents, you are in enough lag to get hit still. At higher percents, they have less time to punish you fully. At 72% and above, you kill with it.

Now, if you do whiff it, you take a good 20% of damage or death from falco. And, falco can kill jigglypuff at 50%-60% with a fsmash. So, if you throw out the move below 50%, you really have no risk of death. If you try to do it above 50%, you are now at risk of dying if you whiff it. Is it worth using the move if you gamble losing a stock vs doing 15%+? Probably you would not think so, and rather wait until falco is at 72% plus to at least break even. Hit and get a stock, or miss and lose a stock.

Jiggs -50% & Falco any percent.
Damage risk

Jiggs 50%+ & Falco 70%+
Break Even

Jiggs 50%+ & Falco -70%
Bad idea.

Considering how hard it is to get into the situations for rest and the percentage the opponent must be at to achieve a KO with it, rest comes across as nothing more than a situational kill move. Not something that can win you matches. Throw in the fact that we agree that falco can keep jigglypuff out and rack up damage, jigglypuff will be at KO range from fsamsh for a majority of the match.

I simply see rest as being a move that jigglypuff has access too, but using it could really throw the match away for you. Even if you do land it, all the move was is a slightly lower percent killing move compared to the rest of her KO move. Perhaps instead of possibly throwing away the match by risking a nice KO move, you would have more reliablity from conventional strategies such as baiting or spacing your opponent out. This is really all I have been trying to point out.

i think we should always assume ledge grab limit or legitimate play otherwise **** playing falco who would have no positive matchup in the game. >_>

Well, I think a planking jigglypuff is easier to deal with than many other characters. For one, she is slow in regrabbing the ledge. Plus, sweetspotting it is a challenge in itself for her. It probably evens the match-up if you keep ledge play, but it doesn't wreck falco against jigglypuff.

If people are hell bent on this MU being 60-40, then I'll start the next MU discussion in a few hours. Just wanted to make sure everyone is agreed on this before proceeding.

In summary, its an uphill battle for jigglypuff on stage, so 60-40 falco. Ledgeplay evens the match-up to neutral range.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I think rest actually does more around 25-30%.
The Kills are usually 65%-100% for the minimums, light to heavy.
This move is like Marth's Up or Luigi's Shoryuken, in that it's a great move for what it does, but you'll get punished mad hard if you miss.
Ganon's Utilt too.
No one quote me and say how you don't get punished for the above moves. I wasn't comparing risk reward or usefulness. Just situation.

Punishing rolls, airdodges are good times to impliment. or the chance of a trip during a Dair guarantee a rest. It's still risky, but a good puff user knows the right time to do it.

 

[SN Viper]

Falco Vs Jigglypuff is not a gimme for falco by any means. Puff can and will blind side a falco player that dose not know the mu.

The things that falco has to watch out for in this mu are gimps. Puff can gimp falco and will be looking for patters and habits in your recovery to exploit it. Her nair
fair and pound can reliably hit falco out of phantasm.

Puff also has a good grab game her throws deal good damage and she will use them to put falco off stage.
The her grab game is good she will be in the air for most of the match. If you are not approaching you will not need to worry about puffs grab game.

Puff will be killing falco with fair, dash attack, up tilt and rest when you make a mistake. Puffs fair is a very good kill move in this match. the times you will have to worry about it are when its fresh. puff will be using fair alot to space and put on damage. This move is most deadly after you have killed puff. dash attack will kill falco when his shdl is bad or in a pattern that puff reads. Puff will run up and just dash attack under the lasors and hit falco. Up tilt is a very reliable kill move for puff it can hit while you are doing d throw to spike stuff. you should be able to avoid this move with ease as long as you are save on your cross ups and dont get predictable.
Rest will **** you up if you are not careful. This move is Very underrated. Rest comes up fast with invincibly. be careful while full jab comboing puff if you notice puff sdi into you just jab crouch cancel to up tilt.

Puffs air game is good, her airs are as useful as ours in this mu and possibly even better. Puffs dair is a way for her to link moves dair to grab or even dair to rest yes it will happen if you dont play the match smart. Our nair dair and bair are also very effective in this mu. full hop diar can catch airborn puffs off guard since our dair and full hop are very quick. we will use dthrow to dair for damage early in the game.

Falco can shut puff down with his tools. This MU is tricky but jab will save you. Jab can interrupt most of puffs approaches. lasors will also force puff to approach you.
at low % when we get a grab on puff we can put on around 30-40 % easy. dthrow to spike will work. I also find that nair will be a useful tool in this mu. When puff is over head oos nair will get a good hit in. racking damage on puff is not hard to do.

Puff is light witch means that falco will kill at reasonable % witch is nice for a change. Landing a kill move on puff is NOT as easy as players may think. In this mu fresh bair is the best way to go about killing puff. Use lasors , jab ,and pummels when you grab to keep the move fresh. Bair is one of the best moves in this mu it will do alot for us in the air it is also a safe kill move that will not leave us open. we also have up smash oss if puff hits our shield wrong. The glory of this mu with falco is we can rack damage up and get kills with up tilt or f tilt if the puff is playing very safe. If we can catch puff in the air with shdl at 100% the dacus will kill. shdl to dacus is nice in this mu it will catch puff often when then are low off the ground looking for a fair.

I feel the MU is 60-40 falco or +1

There is much more i know about this MU that i would love to discuss. Sorry for joining in this so late. I will leave you with some of my most recent games with mink. to view and i will assure you keitaro that i play the MU proper in most games i hope you view these.

Most recent match between Mink and i http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNrFc2e_6Ek
The right way to play vs puff http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IgmEMyOSAw watch this one keitaro
this mu is not a gimmie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNdSULsC5Ug

 

[Linkvader]

Some good vids Viper, shows the MU pretty well.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Viper laying that knowledge down thank you for doing so. I think this MU ratio is decided, 60-40 Falco it is.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Good stuff.
Good write up Viper.

I'm ashamed of that 2nd link :-\
I was totally off of my game that tourney.
Oh well

 

[Linkvader]

Thanks, are you posting the new MU genie?

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

And in that one i will be of little or no use.

Goodbye falcos.

Unless you do zss.

i ****ing hate falco.

 

[clowsui]

gotta say falco is a homo character. unlike most of the ******s here i actually acknowledge it tho

 

[Gamegenie222]

Yes I am getting the MU info and being written up right now as we speak Linkvader just wait a few. Thank you Mink and other Jigglypuff players who contribute to this discussion and Falco players for doing what we do best, playing GAY and also contributing.

 

[Linkvader]

Gay is why Falco is top tier. Thanks Gamegenie

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

no problem genie.
Thanks for the invite.

I feel honored :D

 

[Linkvader]

I also thank Mink, come back when we get to ZSS. I'll be able to help with it too.

 

[clowsui]

no problem genie.
Thanks for the invite.

I feel honored :D

man whatever you suck

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Everyone here sucks



And okay, when you guys get to ZSS just hit me up.

 

[clowsui]

i'mma be here for ZSS discussion too...hope nobody tries to tell me that MU is +1 only for falco LOL. i let it slide this time but if ZSS drops below +2 for falco i'm going to give up on having serious discussion

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

What?
It's +3 ZSS......

....

 

[Linkvader]

Lolz Mink. I wish it was like that. Then ZSS would go up in tier and Falco might drop a spot down.


I think it's +2 for Falco, but we will discuss when we get there. Maybe in a few months...

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

When someone picks falco
I pick jigglypuff.

thats how good i am bad it is.

 

[clowsui]

I think it's a solid +2 for Falco. Long while till we get there tho