Falco Matchup #10: Yoshi

[-DR3W-]

The fact that you're trying to impose the fact that we're wrong implies that you know something we don't about the MU.

Everything...

 

[1PokeMastr]

Thank you for putting this in words for me.
I already explained this too.. sheesh.
But at this point, Drew was already trolling.


And Xeylode didn't really read the posts beforehand.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

@Poke: Nope. Don't have time to shift through mountains of text anymore. Faster to post, get destroyed and learn later. Besides, half of the 2012 stuff is delta replying to drew about non-match-up stuff really.

@Delta: Not sure the "offical name" offhand, too lazy to look up at the moment. But, reverse jump canceled usmash. Have you tried this out of air releases on falco? Usmash is too slow to hit in front of yoshi, but by turning around first on the ground Usmash might work out of an air release.

Glad to finally hear more about yoshi stuff lol

 

[Delta-cod]

Reverse Jump Canceled Usmash won't work. We barely have enough frames to tip you with our Dash Grab, which has more range than Usmash. It would take too long for us to get close, or if we tried to do it early, we'd probably miss.

 

[kismet2]

so falco v yoshi 6:4? falco's laser makes it difficult for yoshi to be retreating with pivot grabs or getting in. having that kinda control helps falco get good jab and dash attack mixups into grabs for good damage.

 

[ForwardAirRage!]

I believe its a -2 or maybe slightly worse really. yoshi doesnt have much in this mu.

 

[teluoborg]

ITT : Yoshis that have no clue about how their neutral B works.
It's adv Falco of course, but just because you have to mix **** up doesn't mean it's a -2.

 

[ForwardAirRage!]

I see so I just use neutral b and the Mu seems so much better! .............yeah no. making mix ups is one thing, but falco shuts down yoshi. nothing else to it

 

[RaptorTEC]

Is this really being discussed still? It's a -3. A 5 year old can beat Yoshi as Falco. Egg lay is a great move in general. It is in no way a game changer in this mu. And you always have to mix it up as Yoshi so I don't see your point.

Keitaro did it perfectly against me game 3 last time we played. He got me down to my last stock while he was at kill percent 2nd stock and from that point he literally just camped fd. Pew pew pew pew pew. If I get close side B. If I block the side b it doesn't matter because I can't punish. If I don't get close well I guess i gotta eat more lasers. I can try to make it look like I'm gonna approach to bait a side B but that would only work on a stupid falco. From that point there's literally nothing we can safely do. If we manage to get a kill it's because the Falco did something stupid or we have stock lead meaning they have to eventually approach. Other than that if the falco has stock advantage game over.

 

[teluoborg]

Oh you got 2 stocked by Keitaro so it's obviously -3
I understand.

 

[RaptorTEC]

*facepalm*
You're an idiot. I used that match as an example because on that last stock he played the mu perfectly. You havent given any reasoning for your opinion. Please explain why you think this mu is a -1 I need a really good laugh.

*grabs popcorn*

 

[kismet2]

well yoshi has some decent zoning tools and the point of egg lay is to use it while falco is zoning. it's going to be hard to do what you want since the falco will use jab and ftilt but that's what egg lay is for, when he's throwing out his limbs. full hop to avoid lasers or if you're on a stage with platforms, use them. that way you can escape the laser pressure and have a much easier time. you don't have to commit to falco, he's just really at making characters do that. i don't think it's as bad as -3

 

[teluoborg]

*facepalm*
You're an idiot. I used that match as an example because on that last stock he played the mu perfectly. You havent given any reasoning for your opinion. Please explain why you think this mu is a -1 I need a really good laugh.

*grabs popcorn*

No no, I understand, there's no way you could have been simply outplayed, it's the matchup.

I mean, it's not like you have the best air speed in the game so there's no way you could bait a side b by drifting in and out of Falco's unshdlable zone. And there's no way you can punish a poorly spaced shdl because you don't have enough range and mobility, so you're stuck with trying to get into close quarters.

And of course shield is the only option against phantasm, it's not like you have anything to interrupt it, like a fast jab, a lingering Nair or a dash attack with good burst range.

Oh and I forgot that you struggle much more than Falco to kill, I mean look at all the options he has and how reliably he can land them, man you sure wish you could Dthrow to bdacus people who fail their DI like him.

Is your pop corn salty enough or do I need to teach you more about your own options ?

TL;DR : just because a character has horizontal zoning tools that beat yours doesn't mean it's -3.

 

[Shadow the Past]

Claiming that the player experience on the Yoshi's side in a game 3 match is what decided the match, and not the character matchup itself, is really ridiculous. I'm the equivelent of a 5 year old who plays Falco, since I haven't been playing long, and I can still reliably beat ForwardAir's Yoshi. He's just smart and opts out of the matchup by going Marth.

 

[Sharky]

d'awww look at the garbage player thinking he knows something about yoshi that no other yoshi player does, it's cute <3

toodles

 

[Delta-cod]

ITT : Yoshis that have no clue about how their neutral B works.
It's adv Falco of course, but just because you have to mix **** up doesn't mean it's a -2.

ITT: No-name Falco mains telling top Yoshis they don't know how their character works.

You're right though, it's not a -2. It's a -3!

My god, you're as bad as the Meta Knights.

well yoshi has some decent zoning tools

Yoshi's zoning tools are...eggs and pivot grab. These moves DON'T EXIST against Falco. How can we pivot grab someone that's camping us? There is ZERO reason to approach Yoshi as Falco.

and the point of egg lay is to use it while falco is zoning. it's going to be hard to do what you want since the falco will use jab and ftilt but that's what egg lay is for, when he's throwing out his limbs.

I don't understand the idea of using Egg Lay to approach Falco. Egg Lay's best mobility and unpredictability comes from Double-Jump Cancel Egg Lay (DJCEL). DJCEL really only works when we're near the ground, certainly not above Short Hop height. And, magically enough, this vertical distance is EXACTLY WHERE FALCO IS RAINING LASERS ON US. Lasers interrupt Egg Lay AND halt our momentum, meaning we get literally nothing out of it if we get hit (which we will, lol).

Egg Lay on the ground is a pretty bad option if you're trying to approach with it. So we scratch that out.

The only other option, then, is to try it from a Full Hop. The thing is, though, is that once we Full Hop, what are we going to do? Falco can literally stop shooting lasers and just phantasm through us as we're landing. Yoshi is too floaty to pull interesting mixups out of a Full Hop, like run up > FH > FF > Egg Lay/Nair/Bair. It takes him too long to reach the apex of his jump, and his FF simply isn't fast enough for the mixup to be truly effective.

full hop to avoid lasers or if you're on a stage with platforms, use them. that way you can escape the laser pressure and have a much easier time. you don't have to commit to falco, he's just really at making characters do that. i don't think it's as bad as -3

Full hopping has been addressed above.

Similar to full hopping, platforms don't typically provide good options for us to approach Falco. We don't have any truly threatening aerials, we don't fall fast, and our aerial acceleration is pretty average. So we don't really get any good weaving ability from being in the air (outside of B reversals/Wavebounces, which require us to use a special), so trying to zone you like that is just unrealistic. Furthermore, our only useful aerials if we were to run off a platform to hit you would be Nair, and special wise, Egg Lay. That's it. Dair sucks, Fair is slowwwwwwwwww on startup, we can't run off a platform backwards for Bair, and Uair hits above us.

Yoshi actually does have to commit hard to his options if he's trying to approach. He doesn't have any really safe, non committed approaches against anyone. He's much more noncommittal on defense, but we can't play defense in this MU because lasers.

Like, the only thing we can try to pull is jumping around a bunch until you get impatient and do something stupid, but in reality, all you have to do is phantasm us when we get close to you, lol. We can't do jack about it.

No no, I understand, there's no way you could have been simply outplayed, it's the matchup.

As someone who also has lost to Keitaro recently, I must say you're an idiot.

As someone who had a monstrously positive record against Keitaro until recent times, you're an idiot.

Keitaro doesn't know **** about the matchup. He thinks GR > Fair offstage is guaranteed. Still. After I tell him it's not after every set. And I hit him with it. Every set.

He has no clue how Yoshi works. He's regularly surprised by the things I do with Yoshi. But guess what? I still lose. You know how I lose? None of Yoshi's nuances matter in this match up. Basic campy Falco wins the match up. Destroys the match up. Keitaro is starting to abuse basic Falco and it's working. Because Yoshi can't deal with it.

Falcos who lose to Yoshi lose for one reason: They're afraid of Yoshi. Yes, afraid. If you just jab us when we get close to you or phantasm away instead of shielding, we will never hit you with anything substantial. We just won't. End of discussion.

I mean, it's not like you have the best air speed in the game so there's no way you could bait a side b by drifting in and out of Falco's unshdlable zone. And there's no way you can punish a poorly spaced shdl because you don't have enough range and mobility, so you're stuck with trying to get into close quarters.

Two things:

1) We have the best TOP Air Speed in the game. Our actual acceleration is quite average, meaning our ability to weave is pretty damn awful.

2) Punishing a poorly spaced SHDL means the Falco we're playing is bad. Besides, they can even afford to be poorly spaced if the second laser is perfectly on the ground. Because it interrupts everything we do.

If I remember correctly, Match Up Discussions focus more on character tools and options over relying on the opponent to suck and make a mistake, no?

And of course shield is the only option against phantasm, it's not like you have anything to interrupt it, like a fast jab, a lingering Nair or a dash attack with good burst range.

Yep, cuz as we're running in to approach you, we definitely have the ability to jab. Yup. DASHING JAB GAIZ.

Because as we're running in to approach you through a hellstorm of lasers, we have the time to jump and Nair through phantasm.

Because Dash Attack is so fast it will reliably work.

God forbid we remember that phantasm is actually invincible during the first third of the distance? We can definitely ping out phantasm when we're close to you, yessiree bob.

Oh and I forgot that you struggle much more than Falco to kill, I mean look at all the options he has and how reliably he can land them, man you sure wish you could Dthrow to bdacus people who fail their DI like him.

Man, I sure wish I had silent laser > kill move with Yoshi. It'd be magical!

Man, I sure wish I didn't have to rely on my opponent being scared as **** of me to land a kill move. I sure wish I had good setups out of my throws. I sure wish my most reliable kill move, Usmash, wasn't invalidated by the fact that we have to approach Falco.

Man, I sure wish it was easy for people to kill reliably while approaching through a bunch of interrupting lasers that setup the perfect defense against their characters.

Man, I sure wish it weren't considerably easier for people to kill when they could rely on the opponent needing to jump through hoops just to get near them.

Man.

Is your pop corn salty enough or do I need to teach you more about your own options ?

Please do. Maybe you can pick our character and beat Based God Keitaro for us. Because obviously we just don't know how to play him.

TL;DR : just because a character has horizontal zoning tools that beat yours doesn't mean it's -3.

You're right. The addition of easy damage, priority, safety, zoning, lead taking, lead holding, stock taking, and a plethora of other advantages do.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I love you Delta.

 

[RaptorTEC]

LOL....

Also, I shouldn't have mentioned it was a match against Keitaro since you took the point of the post the wrong way. I was just giving my own experience against a top Falco that actually played the mu correctly and what I learned from that match which is more reliable than bad theory crafting. I still believe it's a -3. The best I could see it being is a bad -2 but it will never be a -1.

 

[DEHF]

I think the match up is -2 for Yoshi. The reason I don't think any worse is the grab release Yoshi has that puts Falco offstage and in a position to potentially get gimped. The other thing is that Yoshi is pretty heavy, making him able to survive at a pretty high % and good kill power.

Falco can shut down Yoshi pretty well and make the match up very annoying for him, but I don't see it being -3.

 

[Delta-cod]

I love you Delta.

<3

How'd that Darion run go anyways?

I think the match up is -2 for Yoshi. The reason I don't think any worse is the grab release Yoshi has that puts Falco offstage and in a position to potentially get gimped. The other thing is that Yoshi is pretty heavy, making him able to survive at a pretty high % and good kill power.

Falco can shut down Yoshi pretty well and make the match up very annoying for him, but I don't see it being -3.

I don't think the GR puts Falco in a reliable enough spot to get gimped consistently, but it's definitely a good tool to have (one of very few in this match up).

Yoshi actually has really average/mediocre kill power. Especially in a match up where he can't really use his Boxing game because Falco's jab is better, our only reliable kill moves become Usmash punishes and Uair reads, which are both hard to come by in the match up.

Being fat is good though.

Anyways, I don't really care enough to fight over the number. We agree Falco shuts Yoshi down well. Hard -2 or -3, whatever's fine for me. -1 is like, 09-'2010 logic where people didn't know what to do.

 

[I Dair You]

-2 Yoshi's worst matchup. Falco completely capitalizes on Yoshi's unconventional shield and his method of approaching to outcamp him moreso than almost any other matchup.

 

[teluoborg]

Well Delta I was gonna make a long answer to your post but then I read things like "dashing is the only way to approach" and "phantasm is unpunishable and impossible to zone" and "silent laser to Usmash is a reliable kill move" and such, so it's made it obvious to me that you're trolling.

You're the last person I'll ever think to teach about zoning, so please post again when you want to write something serious.
I mean "approaching", rly ? In 2012 ? It's just too obvious.

 

[Shadow the Past]

Am I the only one who thinks its cute when someone passes off anything someone says that they don't like as "trolling"

 

[RaptorTEC]

More like you were going to make a long post but then realized you dont know what you're talking about at all, so you just saved yourself the embarrassment.

 

[kismet2]

lol delta i like how you didn't list egg lay as an option. that move is REALLY good. the only thing that falco can do to avoid it is phantasm but if the falco is phantasm happy you use retreating dair or nair to punish. teluo said that falco has "horizontal" zoning, why not approach from the air or take to the platforms? no lasers=less control and you want to be able to feel like you can move. once you have that going you go for egg lay mixups, put falco into the air and keep the pressure. i'll molest a 5-year old falco player with yoshi.

 

[Delta-cod]

Well Delta I was gonna make a long answer to your post but then I read things like "dashing is the only way to approach" and "phantasm is unpunishable and impossible to zone" and "silent laser to Usmash is a reliable kill move" and such, so it's made it obvious to me that you're trolling.

You're the last person I'll ever think to teach about zoning, so please post again when you want to write something serious.
I mean "approaching", rly ? In 2012 ? It's just too obvious.

Everything has to be taken into context in the matchup.

There are three basic approach options: walking, dashing, or from the air.

Walking is too slow. It'd be valid for us if like most characters, we could, you know, powershield lasers. But as it is, we don't get any benefit from walking because we don't out-box Falco anyways.

Dashing gives us speed and gives us the option to dash grab, which is long ranged, disjointed (goes through your boxing moves like jab and ftilt), and obviously follows up with the CG. The CG itself isn't THAT powerful in this match up, however. Even better, if you're lasering well, even if we catch your landing with a grab, the silent laser will interrupt the grab, putting us in a boxing situation where you have the advantage with your amazing jab.

We can also jump out of a dash, but as I discussed before, being in the air in this MU isn't particularly powerful for Yoshi. Yoshi doesn't weave (so he doesn't apply effective pressure like Wario does in that respect), and his aerials themselves aren't incredibly powerful either.

And obviously I'm not omniscient. Please forgive my errors on Falco's options.

However, I'm not going to back down on phantasm being stupid effective on Yoshi.

lol delta i like how you didn't list egg lay as an option. that move is REALLY good.

I agree, Egg Lay is super good. However, it's use is SIGNIFICANTLY mitigated by Falco's zoning. We still have to get onto an equal horizontal level to hit you with it, which means we still have to enter the zone where your lasers/jab are.

Egg Lay also becomes less scary when you realize you have advantage while coming out of the egg. There are invincibility frames on the break animation. We have no followups.

the only thing that falco can do to avoid it is phantasm but if the falco is phantasm happy you use retreating dair or nair to punish.

Only option is phantasm? Egg Lay is just another grab, so spotdodge it...

Retreating Dair...? Yoshi's Dair is TERRIBLE. It only autocancels if we like, rising Full Hop with it, and it has mediocre range/damage output. We get no frame advantage for landing while hitting you with it.

Nair is only truly effective if we hit with the first frames of the hitbox. The rest of the move is...bad. Unless you mean interrupting phantasm with it near the ground, but that still requires some hard reading.

teluo said that falco has "horizontal" zoning, why not approach from the air or take to the platforms? no lasers=less control and you want to be able to feel like you can move. once you have that going you go for egg lay mixups, put falco into the air and keep the pressure.

Because Yoshi's vertical spacing, at least from above, is bad. Falco still has a sizable advantage when we're landing (offensively, anyways). I've gone over his subpar options in previous posts, so I won't reiterate them here.

Yes, Yoshi has to try to perform a bunch of mixups and keep the pressure on Falco. But that's actually all he can do. Make hard reads for mediocre reward. Every single time.

If a match up requires a character to constantly have to bait/read the player, it's a pretty strong indication that the character struggles on a significant level. Especially when the reward for making a correct read isn't even amazing.

 

[kismet2]

i didn't say that you should be going for followups, that's not what the matchup is about. egg lay puts falco in the air so trap his landings since it's pretty easy to juggle falco. from here you can throw eggs to cover his landings or dash attack>jab. i agree that yoshi can't outbox falco but no character really can, they're supposed to approach from different angles since falco can cover the space in front of him very well. about punishing the phantasm i admit i was spitballing but yoshi has plenty of lingering moves that beat out phantasm. yoshi has a great full hop with some pretty good aerials especially bair, one of yoshi's best moves too lol. but if i can't convince you that this matchup isn't -3 or something that bad then i tried =(

 

[Delta-cod]

egg lay puts falco in the air so trap his landings since it's pretty easy to juggle falco. from here you can throw eggs to cover his landings or dash attack>jab.

Landing coverage is basically all we can manage, and it still requires reads.

Also, Dash attack > Jab isn't a combo.

i agree that yoshi can't outbox falco but no character really can, they're supposed to approach from different angles since falco can cover the space in front of him very well. about punishing the phantasm i admit i was spitballing but yoshi has plenty of lingering moves that beat out phantasm.

Again, Yoshi is bad from most of the other angles required to approach Falco.

And while Yoshi does have moves that can beat out phantasm, they still require him to be in the same horizontal plane as Falco. Still heavily read based, while it is possible.

yoshi has a great full hop with some pretty good aerials especially bair, one of yoshi's best moves too lol. but if i can't convince you that this matchup isn't -3 or something that bad then i tried =(

I don't really care what number the MU is. But it's definitely not a -1, and it's one of our hardest match ups, if not THE hardest.

 

[teluoborg]

Dashing gives us speed and gives us the option to dash grab, which is long ranged, disjointed (goes through your boxing moves like jab and ftilt), and obviously follows up with the CG. The CG itself isn't THAT powerful in this match up, however. Even better, if you're lasering well, even if we catch your landing with a grab, the silent laser will interrupt the grab, putting us in a boxing situation where you have the advantage with your amazing jab.

One thing I disagree with is the CG not being powerful in thematchup. Falco isn't good on the ledge and his recovery isn't versatile, so being able to put him offstage/on the ledge with every grab is a good advantage.
The other thing I disagree with is how you put Falco's jab on a pedestal. Ok, it's a good move but Yoshi can Jump Armor to Nair the jab cancels and other mindtricks. Zudenka has done it to me quite a few times and well it makes jab mixups a lot less safe.

We can also jump out of a dash, but as I discussed before, being in the air in this MU isn't particularly powerful for Yoshi. Yoshi doesn't weave (so he doesn't apply effective pressure like Wario does in that respect), and his aerials themselves aren't incredibly powerful either.

Agreed with that, although Yoshi's airdodge has some weird properties I fail to comprehend (it allows you to weave easier and briefly slows your fall ? Idk but it's clearly different from normal airdodges) that help your positioning.
And well tbh the matchup isn't about approaching Falco, it's more about getting into that particular zone where you're too close for him to SHDL safely, because once you reach that place the status quo has changed and you are now in range to punish some of Falco's options.

However, I'm not going to back down on phantasm being stupid effective on Yoshi.

Phantasm is stupidly good, but it's also extremely fragile : it loses half its power once you realize there is no hitbox to protect the hurtbox and that Falco simply teleports during the move, without it having even 1 frame of invincibility, and that if you manage to stop it you can punish the RCO with a Fsmash.

Egg Lay also becomes less scary when you realize you have advantage while coming out of the egg. There are invincibility frames on the break animation. We have no followups.

This. I can't believe how many people don't know that it gives invincibility frames AND that you can choose when to get out by varying your mashing speed.
Nevertheless Egg Lay is still one of the best command grabs in the game, especially when you DJC it and it gives you a burst range the size of a BF platform + it puts Falco in a bad zone (above Yoshi).

Nair is only truly effective if we hit with the first frames of the hitbox. The rest of the move is...bad. Unless you mean interrupting phantasm with it near the ground, but that still requires some hard reading.

Phantasm has a 16 frames startup (22 for IAP) and the unpunishable part is rather restricted compared to the complète range of the move. It's totally possible to anticipate it or even just react to it with correct positionning.


I kinda agree with the rest, and can see this matchup as a -2 (-2 meaning "clear disadvantage but not unwinnable).

Ps : my only real Yoshi experience comes from Zudenka.

 

[Delta-cod]

One thing I disagree with is the CG not being powerful in thematchup. Falco isn't good on the ledge and his recovery isn't versatile, so being able to put him offstage/on the ledge with every grab is a good advantage.

Okay.

The other thing I disagree with is how you put Falco's jab on a pedestal. Ok, it's a good move but Yoshi can Jump Armor to Nair the jab cancels and other mindtricks. Zudenka has done it to me quite a few times and well it makes jab mixups a lot less safe.

Except you don't actually need to do any jab cancels. Just following through with jab works well because we can't SDI out of it and then shield grab it or whatever. It beats out our boxing game, so if you have rapid jabs going when we SDI out, our only real counter moves are grab/egg lay. Standing grab is too slow, so we need to Egg Lay or pivot grab. It's far from ideal.

Using SDI to get into Falco is unreliable, afaik. Yoshi's so fat that he really struggles to get past the hitbox. But maybe my SDI is just terrible.

Agreed with that, although Yoshi's airdodge has some weird properties I fail to comprehend (it allows you to weave easier and briefly slows your fall ? Idk but it's clearly different from normal airdodges) that help your positioning.

Yoshi's airdodge makes him floatier or something. To be perfectly honest, I don't know it all myself. I know that it's super weird when we're landing with it, because we tend to float right above the ground until the animation is over. I've had people miss punishes on me because of that, and I've missed punishes on other Yoshis because of it.

Even if it did help us weave easier, it still requires commitment to a really long animation, even if it is invincible, which really hurts mindgame potential.

And well tbh the matchup isn't about approaching Falco, it's more about getting into that particular zone where you're too close for him to SHDL safely, because once you reach that place the status quo has changed and you are now in range to punish some of Falco's options.

The status quo changes, sure, but Falco still commands the battlefield if he isn't afraid of Yoshi's options. The more defensively/scared Falco plays in this situation (basically, shielding/spotdodging), the more opportunities Yoshi has to capitalize on. I think Falco actually needs to just throw out some good hitboxes to stuff Yoshi out if he can't SHDL anymore.

Phantasm is stupidly good, but it's also extremely fragile : it loses half its power once you realize there is no hitbox to protect the hurtbox and that Falco simply teleports during the move, without it having even 1 frame of invincibility, and that if you manage to stop it you can punish the RCO with a Fsmash.

We can really only punish the RCO with Fsmash if we manage to stop the phantasm with Jab. Otherwise we get some options out of it, but nothing too significant.

Nevertheless Egg Lay is still one of the best command grabs in the game, especially when you DJC it and it gives you a burst range the size of a BF platform + it puts Falco in a bad zone (above Yoshi).

Falco doesn't pop up particularly high from Egg Lay, so the invincibility + his fall speed means that we don't really get any spectacular positioning against Falco for landing it. I will always appreciate Egg Lay's use, but I think in this case its best purpose is to just mess up Falco's rhythm, which is always good (but still largely reliant on player vs. player).

Phantasm has a 16 frames startup (22 for IAP) and the unpunishable part is rather restricted compared to the complète range of the move. It's totally possible to anticipate it or even just react to it with correct positionning.

I think the correct positioning for Yoshi to deal with phantasm in this MU is rather difficult for him to be in because it requires him to be in Falco's zoning range, which sucks. A lot of the positioning Yoshi does in this MU gives him the ability to deal with options, yes. But one position typically requires giving up the ability to deal with a large portion of Falco's other options in favor of being prepared to deal with one. It kinda sucks.

I kinda agree with the rest, and can see this matchup as a -2 (-2 meaning "clear disadvantage but not unwinnable).

I don't think Yoshi has any unwinnable MUs, but I don't think this is one he should be winning consistently at high levels. I honestly think Yoshi can be more consistent against Meta Knight than Falco, because any MU where Yoshi is forced to approach typically causes him to suffer, and Falco really excels at stuffing Yoshi's approaches.

Either way, this can in no way be seen as a -1. Yoshi has to do way too much work and has to make too many reads/baits in comparison with Falco's easy zoning and safety.

Ps : my only real Yoshi experience comes from Zudenka.

And he's totally valid experience, so don't worry about that.

 

[Darktega]

Just sayin', Delta-cod make it seems if you don't win here, you're doing it wrong as a Falco. (Don't take it personally, I only say Falco seems to have a really good advantage over Yoshi in every aspect)

Personally, I can't tell beacuse the only Yoshi I had played against was "some Yoshi" in "some tourney" here in my little city. And I played naively thinking I could win in a no-camping game. I will have to go find some good Yoshi to play against if I want to put on line all I have read here.

Btw, sorry for reviving the old thread, I couldn't resist asking what to do after the beat up I got in that tourney I mentioned previously.