Falco is the 2nd best character

[Bandit_Kieth]

such hostility in the boards

 

[pure_awesome]

I'd just like to point out that if the Falco is seriously going to do nothing else than spam lasers and phantasm away, Snake can just crawl around and bait the IAP. His jab-spam comes out fast enough to knock Falco out of it most of the time.

And landing 3 Phantasms and a laser or two in exchange for a jab combo is bad trade.


Not that this proves all that much, it just bugs me that people think Snake of all people is defenceless against something so basic.

And if lasers to illusion spammy garbage doesn't work, then people such as M2K, Chillin, and Sethlon are apparently dumb players.

M2K dairs Falcos out of Phantasm all the time.

 

[NJzFinest]

NJz - IC's blizzard (down b) stops phantasm...also...phantasm is really really predictable. You must not have played any IC's lately that are good. IC players are better at getting grabs...their metagame has nothing to do with this.

1. Lasers and Shine beat blizzard. I also don't know why you would forward B into a blizzard anyways (the move doesn't come out fast either).
2. We already covered the issue of Falco's moves, well, moves in general, being predictable
3. Your last remark needs some elaboration. So far your reasoning has been "that doesn't work, you must play on wifi". Also, exactly where does your IC experience come from? Looking at your location, I can only assume it's piss poor.

I'd just like to point out that if the Falco is seriously going to do nothing else than spam lasers and phantasm away, Snake can just crawl around and bait the IAP. His jab-spam comes out fast enough to knock Falco out of it most of the time.

And landing 3 Phantasms and a laser or two in exchange for a jab combo is bad trade.


Not that this proves all that much, it just bugs me that people think Snake of all people is defenceless against something so basic.

Once I realized you were talking about Falco vs Snake, I stopped reading this post. Why? Because we all know Falco is great against Snake.

M2K dairs Falcos out of Phantasm all the time.

Yet he encourages people to use the move. Nevertheless, such a great point to bring up...

 

[pure_awesome]

Once I realized you were talking about Falco vs Snake, I stopped reading this post. Why? Because we all know Falco is great against Snake.

That's a crying shame. Had you kept reading, you would have seen that I said:

Not that this proves all that much, it just bugs me that people think Snake of all people is defenceless against something so basic.

But I suppose you can't catch everything.

Yet he encourages people to use the move. Nevertheless, such a great point to bring up...

It is a great move, and he should encourage it, as should anyone who knows how to play Falco.

But he still Dairs people out of it all the time. I'm not disagreeing with you saying it's not a bad idea. I'm disagreeing with you using M2K as an example when it's not true.



On a side note, I generally don't play the hostility game on forums. So let's try not to be snarky, shall we?

 

[Mikey7]

I've realized that I had previously overrated lasers to illusion until I had fought competent ICs. So you guys get out there and learn that spam does not work - there is no amount of convincing that I can do.

NJz - Canada is good at brawl. This is NOT melee, dont make moronic assumptions. And before the "Canada hasn't proven that they're good" argument comes into play here - go look at the CH4 results thread. My experience comes from Lain and Ambrose...I dare you to fight Ambrose with Falco, lol.
Elaboration on last point: IC's dont blindly run in for grabs, they will sit there and bait you, I can't explain this because you need to go out and see for yourself. But pretty much your conception of ICs is that they will run straight up to you and go for a grab which is not true at all. Ambrose, the ICs that I play the most will actually fight me while anticipating phantasms. Just as a quick example of what I'm talking about, one time I was playing, and Nana used blizzard while Popo proceeded to grab me.

 

[§witch]

I've realized that I had previously overrated lasers to illusion until I had fought competent ICs. So you guys get out there and learn that spam does not work - there is no amount of convincing that I can do.

NJz - Canada is good at brawl. This is NOT melee, dont make moronic assumptions. And before the "Canada hasn't proven that they're good" argument comes into play here - go look at the CH4 results thread. My experience comes from Lain and Ambrose...I dare you to fight Ambrose with Falco, lol.
Elaboration on last point: IC's dont blindly run in for grabs, they will sit there and bait you, I can't explain this because you need to go out and see for yourself. But pretty much your conception of ICs is that they will run straight up to you and go for a grab which is not true at all. Ambrose, the ICs that I play the most will actually fight me while anticipating phantasms. Just as a quick example of what I'm talking about, one time I was playing, and Nana used blizzard while Popo proceeded to grab me.

There you go, the ICs cannot bait falco considering falco can outcamp them.

I don't know how many times I have to say it but, you just obviously don't know how to phantasm intelligently. You don't have to phantasm at the ICs if you're keeping your distance and laser camping, you only phantasm to get back out of their range.

 

[SpeedAcE]

I agree. Spam doesn't work against competent players. IAP spam gets predictable. I've been hit out of it so many times, even grabbed.

 

[Darxmarth23]

I've realized that I had previously overrated lasers to illusion until I had fought competent ICs. So you guys get out there and learn that spam does not work - there is no amount of convincing that I can do.
.

Right. Any good player will not let the same trick work twice. I would say that the idea of falco ranging away from the opponent is okay to me. With snake setting up the field options seem limited...

 

[Ambrose]

laser camping and illusions isnt going to work forever against the ICs. It isn't that easy. First of all, illusion has pretty crappy priority. ICs n-air could cancel it. It's not even that hard to predict when the falco is going to illusion. Sure..it might work a few times, but the player will catch on.

Alright...Normal blizzard might not work, cause falco can reflect it/laser. But what if the ICs do desynced blizzard. Nana sh blizzards and popo runs up and shields w/e falco does, then punishes him. This is just an example. You guys are making it sound like the ICs player you guys are facing is a complete ******. lol. This is just my 2 cents.

 

[fox219]

Ally is amazing, but Falco simply may be a better character.

SK92 has beaten ally but I think Ally won last time they played.

In the DOSE tourney finals (on youtube) Ally won.

I agree 100 percent. SK92 was such a great player.

 

[§witch]

Look up a few posts, it's hard to miss.

You guys aren't even thinking or reading what me and NJz are saying.

 

[Mikey7]

Look up a few posts, it's hard to miss.

You guys aren't even thinking or reading what me and NJz are saying.

Yeah because IC's have NO lateral movement speed OR phantasm ****** attacks at all.
Also people don't have brains, prediction skills are so overrated!

 

[NJzFinest]

NJz - Canada is good at brawl. This is NOT melee, dont make moronic assumptions.

Sorry, Canada + Smash = lol. At least you guys have a few good Melee players (PKM, Raynex)

And before the "Canada hasn't proven that they're good" argument comes into play here - go look at the CH4 results thread.

That tourney was awhile ago, metagame has changed more then a decent amount since then.

My experience comes from Lain

Funny, I used Lain as an example...

and Ambrose...I dare you to fight Ambrose

Who?

Elaboration on last point: IC's dont blindly run in for grabs, they will sit there and bait you

Nice, so they sit there as a wall of lasers comes at them.

, I can't explain this because you need to go out and see for yourself.

I've seen shield grabbing before, thank you.

Just as a quick example of what I'm talking about, one time I was playing, and Nana used blizzard while Popo proceeded to grab me.

...how close were you if he was able to grab you >_> and again, lasers + shine beat blizzard.

 

[Bandit_Kieth]

so whats with all this Falco vs IC crap?

i honestly dont know why its sparked into this big *** argument

 

[NJzFinest]

I still thinks it's hilarous how people are complaining that spam = predicatable. Since when was it not? If you're fighting a character with projectiles, what do you think is going to happen?

Falco in melee -->spam, Falco in brawl --> way more spam. Falco = spam, period. One of the reasons why he's even as good as he is considered now is because of his amazing spam. If the fact that it was too predictable nerfed the idea of spamming that much, most characters in general would do alot better against Falco. Heh, Falco shouldn't even be top tier then.

 

[Ambrose]

Sorry, Canada + Smash = lol. At least you guys have a few good Melee players (PKM, Raynex)

If you don't know our brawl players, then just don't talk about canada lol.

That tourney was awhile ago, metagame has changed more then a decent amount since then.

How would you know if we can't do as well or even better after the metagame has changed? lol, who are you to judge us?

 

[NJzFinest]

If you don't know our brawl players, then just don't talk about canada lol.

You seemed to of missed the joke...

How would you know if we can't do as well or even better after the metagame has changed?

My point exactly... how am I supposed to know? Apparently you still have more to showcase in the states.

lol, who are you to judge us?

An American xD

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I still thinks it's hilarous how people are complaining that spam = predicatable. Since when was it not? If you're fighting a character with projectiles, what do you think is going to happen?

Falco in melee -->spam, Falco in brawl --> way more spam. Falco = spam, period. One of the reasons why he's even as good as he is considered now is because of his amazing spam. If the fact that it was too predictable nerfed the idea of spamming that much, most characters in general would do alot better against Falco. Heh, Falco shouldn't even be top tier then.

2 Notions of what Falco really is: Spammable or Rounded.

Falco is easy to spam with and this approach is generally favored by (what I call) incompatent players that feel the need to only use phantasm, lasers, etc. They will find that although it may work at getting damage, it will be difficult to actually get the kill and will lose when they try to force a KO. Also it takes forever to get enough damage with lasers and phantasm alone in the kill range.

Well-rounded falco players will know when and how to use all there moves correctly and this is what makes Falco a top tier because of his move pool potiental, we should expect backroom people to know the difference between a character's overall potiental vs. questionable tactics.

Falco suffers from being a very misunderstood birdie.

so whats with all this Falco vs IC crap?

i honestly dont know why its sparked into this big *** argument

General idea is that the best way to beat IC is play keep away with phantasm and lasers only till damage is high enough to KO, which is one way to play, but I personally feel that gets a bit boring and complicated as constant things (as everyone points out) = predicatable and that is easy to counteract (with compatent people, I fail against spam; wifi and all). In higher levels of playing, keeping the ICs desnyched (KOing nana) with falco is really the best method to beating ICs.

 

[ADHD]

Falco does not deserve to be the second best character... third is a possibility but still a longshot...

 

[momochuu]

NJz's sig made my heart leap out of my chest. @___@

*Breathes heavily*

 

[NJzFinest]

Falco is easy to spam with and this approach is generally favored by (what I call) incompatent players that feel the need to only use phantasm, lasers, etc. They will find that although it may work at getting damage, it will be difficult to actually get the kill and will lose when they try to force a KO. Also it takes forever to get enough damage with lasers and phantasm alone in the kill range.

Well-rounded falco players will know when and how to use all there moves correctly and this is what makes Falco a top tier because of his move pool potiental, we should expect backroom people to know the difference between a character's overall potiental vs. questionable tactics.

Falco suffers from being a very misunderstood birdie.

I meant spam as in moves / using spammy moves in general; here, you are comparing 2 types of players.
Anyways, take these moves away from Falco (lasers, phantasm, and shine) then I highly doubt he'll be top tier.

NJz's sig made my heart leap out of my chest. @___@

*Breathes heavily*

LOL, xD

 

[Mith_]

Yea taking away his shine won't change his tier placement.
And maybe phantasm too but I may be pushing it.

 

[§witch]

Okay, whatever Mikey, you aren't listening and there's no point in me carrying this on anymore, just continue to lose to the ICs.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Yea taking away his shine won't change his tier placement.
And maybe phantasm too but I may be pushing it.

I think taking phantasm away would make a good difference. You try recovering without it for a few matches. Firebird is easily gimped and not enough range to get back to the stage normally. Also with lightweight and decent knockback you'll be getting pushed far away from the stage and without the phantasm you'll be getting KOed a little bit earlier because of it.

I meant spam as in moves / using spammy moves in general; here, you are comparing 2 types of players.
Anyways, take these moves away from Falco (lasers, phantasm, and shine) then I highly doubt he'll be top tier.

LOL, xD

Typical comminucation error on my part. But agreed. Take away his specials not top tier, but still dang good.

 

[Ambrose]

You seemed to of missed the joke...

My point exactly... how am I supposed to know? Apparently you still have more to showcase in the states.

An American xD

Exactly..you don't know lol. So don't assume anything until we come down again.

I don't really care if you are an American or not.

 

[lain]

NJzFinest, all you do is talk **** to ppl about how bad they are. It's REALLY tiring, when you're not really that great to begin with.

Falco LOSES to Ice Climbers. End of story. Oh and Canada is **** :]

 

[pure_awesome]

So uh... hey, Iceblock Spam > Laser Spam.

No, seriously. Try it.

 

[Mith_]

Im afraid of ice blocks.

 

[Crackle]

Njzfinest: I respect you as a well-known player which should and would sway my opinion in these boards somewhat granted that you were correct.

But seriously your arguments are
1. Side-B and Laser Spam are unstoppable against IC's.
2. You are amazing and therefore may disregard all denouncements of #1

If the argument is correct, good job, but so far number 2 has been flaunted way too much for its own good.

On to the iceclimbers and actually discussing them: Ice blocks can be properly spaced just out of ftilt range and a decent player can and will see side-b coming if its obvious that that is what the player is looking to do. Seriously, if you do it twice, chances are they'll see it coming the third time, no matter how randomly you use it.

When a player realizes all you can do is stay out of their range, and in this case use sideb and lasers, they'll realize what they need to do. In this case, Ice climbers need to properly space to a point where iceblocks hit your feet before you touch the ground and therefore your reflector fails if you try to continue to shorthop laser. Obviously, due to this, you can't shorthop laser.

So the game, in my mind, as far as this lame discussion goes, ends up like this
1. Falco lasers
2. Falco gets away with side b when IC's approach
3. Repeat (If the IC player is slow in the head)
4. Falco lasers and gets hit with ice blocks
or Falco sideb's and gets dash attacked by the IC's and hit into the air for some followups + chasing
or Falco stands there like an idiot, waiting for ice blocks to come at them, and maybe reflects some back while the IC's close in aerially.

In any case, I believe IC's have greater horizontal mobility than Falco and therefore can "catch" him regardless of mindgames and whatnot. You can't just say side-b is flawless, it's not. Plus, granted limited space on most stages (especially the IC counterpicks), Falco probably will have nowhere far to sideb and run to for his lasers.

The only reason this argument is taking so long is because NJ is defending his right to be respected above his right to be correct in this issue. Ad hominem reasoning is fail.

So what's our next discussion about? Oh wow this isn't even the matchup thread.....wtf

 

[NJzFinest]

Exactly..you don't know lol. So don't assume anything until we come down again.

Come down again? OHHH, so I was right, you still have yet to prove yourselves >__>

I don't really care if you are an American or not.

You're not only good at proving my point, but also good at missing jokes.

NJzFinest, all you do is talk **** to ppl about how bad they are. It's REALLY tiring, when you're not really that great to begin with.

LOL, you're one to talk. Lain, you probably have the worst cockiness to skill ratio out of any player in the Midwest.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179408&page=62
^ This and the page afterward.

Njzfinest: I respect you as a well-known player which should and would sway my opinion in these boards somewhat granted that you were correct.

But seriously your arguments are
1. Side-B and Laser Spam are unstoppable against IC's.
2. You are amazing and therefore may disregard all denouncements of #1

If the argument is correct, good job, but so far number 2 has been flaunted way too much for its own good.

So everytime someone disagreed with number 1, you're saying I basically replied back "I'm amazing and I don't need to say anything else".
That's false.

On to the iceclimbers and actually discussing them: Ice blocks can be properly spaced just out of ftilt range and a decent player can and will see side-b coming if its obvious that that is what the player is looking to do. Seriously, if you do it twice, chances are they'll see it coming the third time, no matter how randomly you use it.

What I've brought up a decent amount of times before is that this in general is NOT Falco vs IC specific, rather, something that a player (using any character) would notice playing against Falco (in general). Which is why I started talking about how spam + Falco = reason why he's top tier, blah blah.

When a player realizes all you can do is stay out of their range, and in this case use sideb and lasers, they'll realize what they need to do. In this case, Ice climbers need to properly space to a point where iceblocks hit your feet before you touch the ground and therefore your reflector fails if you try to continue to shorthop laser. Obviously, due to this, you can't shorthop laser.

So the game, in my mind, as far as this lame discussion goes, ends up like this
1. Falco lasers
2. Falco gets away with side b when IC's approach
3. Repeat (If the IC player is slow in the head)
4. Falco lasers and gets hit with ice blocks
or Falco sideb's and gets dash attacked by the IC's and hit into the air for some followups + chasing
or Falco stands there like an idiot, waiting for ice blocks to come at them, and maybe reflects some back while the IC's close in aerially.

Hmm, none of those exactly lead into a grab...
But you forgot to add (If the Falco player is slow in the head) to each for those under 4. You really think if the Falco catches on to the IC player, he really has no options.
Mew2King said it himself, Falco can outcamp any character, yet no one refuted that with him.
And think of it, if they're TTHHHAAATTT good on Falco, then they should do pretty **** amazing on alot of other top tiers. Yet, they're basically borderline C/D tier.

In any case, I believe IC's have greater horizontal mobility than Falco and therefore can "catch" him regardless of mindgames and whatnot.

Greater horizontal mobility? Please elaborate (like seriously, I'm curious to see how it's better then Falco's).

You can't just say side-b is flawless, it's not.

Because me and Switch totally said it was....

The only reason this argument is taking so long is because NJ is defending his right to be respected above his right to be correct in this issue. Ad hominem reasoning is fail.

So what's our next discussion about? Oh wow this isn't even the matchup thread.....wtf

Dude, I started making fun of people like, half a page ago. And Mikey7 started it with his "LOL NOOB, I SAY UR WRONG! U MUST PLAY ONLINE" bull. Anywyas, he made himself look like an elitist dbag to Switch, which eventually made Switch decide to just end the conversation.

Also, making fun of Canadian smash has been around for years.

 

[DKKountry]

Falco does not deserve to be the second best character... third is a possibility but still a longshot...

Snake isn't even a Nintendo character, how does he deserve second?

lulz JP

 

[Mikey7]

Wasn't my intention to start an argument (really, I word things terribly). But then you insulted Canada which made it personal. In my "elitist, flame-war starting post" I actually put "not trying to be mean" before i asked if you played offline. Its a valid question isn't it? Anyway I'm done.

 

[pure_awesome]

I like just injecting various things into conversations.

Anyway, NJz is right about Canadian smash, and you guys need to let it slide. Making fun of Canadian smash is like making fun of the athletic nerd playing dodgeball. He's not really that bad, but everyone does it anyway.

So anyway, let's all stop talking about whether or not NJz is a good person or not, and resume talking about how disgusting it is that Ice Block spam > Laser spam.

 

[§witch]

I like just injecting various things into conversations.

Anyway, NJz is right about Canadian smash, and you guys need to let it slide. Making fun of Canadian smash is like making fun of the athletic nerd playing dodgeball. He's not really that bad, but everyone does it anyway.

So anyway, let's all stop talking about whether or not NJz is a good person or not, and resume talking about how disgusting it is that Ice Block spam > Laser spam.

It still doesn't force an approach.

 

[pure_awesome]

*shrug*

If you have a reflector in this game, the only character that can force you to approach is DDD. You can just chill there in your reflector (or in Falco's case, spamming it), and you're unforceable.

Doesn't change the fact that laser spam loses to ice block spam. So in the spam game, Falco either loses because he's using lasers too much and he's getting hit by ice blocks, or it's a stalemate because he's using reflector too much and it's pointless.

Falco doesn't have to approach, but he's certainly not going to be accomplishing very much at long distances.

 

[§witch]

*shrug*

If you have a reflector in this game, the only character that can force you to approach is DDD. You can just chill there in your reflector (or in Falco's case, spamming it), and you're unforceable.

Doesn't change the fact that laser spam loses to ice block spam. So in the spam game, Falco either loses because he's using lasers too much and he's getting hit by ice blocks, or it's a stalemate because he's using reflector too much and it's pointless.

Falco doesn't have to approach, but he's certainly not going to be accomplishing very much at long distances.

Nor are the ICs, but falco has alot more maneuverability at mid range than the ICs. The ICs need to get close to do what they do best, whereas falco is fine at long and mid-ranges.

 

[pokemon_legend]

I would think that falco is better than snake but is way to popular in brawl I would think and there is way more snakes than falcos in tourneys but falco is better then snake

 

[Denzi]

I would think that falco is better than snake but is way to popular in brawl I would think and there is way more snakes than falcos in tourneys but falco is better then snake

It's actually about even.

 

[lain]

Gg's linking a post to a locked midwest thread where I complimented someone's G&W and stated the FACT that I've never lost to Kel. Seriously what the hell is wrong with you, that had nothing to do with me calling you a bigot.

:]

 

[NJzFinest]

Gg's linking a post to a locked midwest thread where I complimented someone's G&W and stated the FACT that I've never lost to Kel. Seriously what the hell is wrong with you, that had nothing to do with me calling you a bigot.

:]

Really, that's all you saw?

Lain man stop talking about how good you are talking **** is fine man but don't talk yourself up just MM people and beat them and always place higher than them.

**** talk is ok lain theres nothing wrong with talking ****.

but talking yourself up can really make you seem stupid

^^^
You commented on my **** talk yet you do the very same, this is proof (well, I'm just making fun of a joke that's been around for years, so.... yeah).
Seriously what the hell is wrong with you, it's RIGHT there and trying to "cover it" is simply ********, unless, you care that much about your e-*****. Are you even attempting to put some thought into your posts or are you just messing around with me?