Data Falco Hitboxes and Frame Data

[Bones0]

Great thread.

If anyone has the time, I would love to see a extended database for frame data and hitboxes for each move. For example, for moves the has separate hitboxes (like dash attck which has a slightly lager hitbox in the start) I would like to see what frame the second variation of the hitbox comes out. I would also like to see a picture by picture version of the hitbox gif because that would make it easier to compare the hitbox variation and get a better overview of the total range of the move. If something like this already exist please link me to it ^^''.

Good stuff tho.

Read about gif-explode at the top of the first post.

 

[Zorc Of Norway]

Read about gif-explode at the top of the first post.

Thanks a lot man. This was exactly what i was looking for Sorry for asking before reading the post properly tho ^^''

 

[pkblaze]

Uhhh... Is it just me or is there an error with the gifs involving photobucket?

 

[Bones0]

Uhhh... Is it just me or is there an error with the gifs involving photobucket?

I think they went over the embed limit or w/e (this happened in the Marth thread as well). I will see what I can do about uploading them to imgur, but I'm not familiar with the site and my internet sucks. In the mean time, you can right click the images and open them manually, or view the entire album here.

 

[Smasher89]

How much shieldstun does falcos laser have, and same on regular laser and ccd laser?

 

[tauKhan]

Completely unstaled laser does 4 frames of shield hitlag and 3 frames of shield stun. If the is staled even a little, it does 3 frames of shield hitlag instead.

On hitstun I found this:

think it was 13 last time i checked (counts hitlag + hitstun because falco doesn't suffer hitlag)

Which would mean that hitstun is 7 frames. When crouched I guess this would mean that the stun is 5 frames (I'm not sure whether I rounded this correctly), and hitlag on fresh laser 3 frames.

So total lag on hit would be 13 frames on fresh laser, 11 usually, fresh on crouch 8 frames, 7 frames on crouch usually.

You can calculate shieldstuns and hitlags easily using formulas from this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...n-hitlag-shieldstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/

Edit: Oops, falco's lasers kb is probably weight dependent, so the laser hitstun is probably longer on lighter characters and shorter on heavier. I don't know at all how big differences laser stun has, but I guess it would be 1 frame at most.

 

[Thor]

Is it possible to get on-shield data (+/-) for Falco's moveset in here? I know some other threads of this kind have that (the Link and Zelda ones do, and the Peach one has both on-shield and on-shield-but-float-cancelled) and that would be helpful to look at for shield pressuring and the like.

 

[tauKhan]

Shieldstun is (4,45+dmg)/2,235 where dmg is staled damage. It's easy to calculate the data using that and landing lag / end lag frames.

 

[Bones0]

Is it possible to get on-shield data (+/-) for Falco's moveset in here? I know some other threads of this kind have that (the Link and Zelda ones do, and the Peach one has both on-shield and on-shield-but-float-cancelled) and that would be helpful to look at for shield pressuring and the like.

http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-advantage-on-block.309694/

I would like to add some things to this chart (%, stun, greatest possible advantage on shield, etc.), but it's tedious, some of the stuff is hard to figure out, and it just takes a while. I think the values for BKB, KB growth, and angle of KB for each individual hitbox is way more useful than any of the other stuff, but the only person I've ever seen compile such data is Kadano and I have no way of testing it for myself. So until someone steps up and does the work, you'll just have to use the above link and test stuff on your own. *shrug*

 

[Thor]

Frame data question:

Is shinegrab shieldgrabbable? I ask this because I was playing some friendlies with a Fox, and I go for a shine grab, but I get grabbed after landing the shine on his shield. Now, I'm not the best at tech skill stuff, and I think I may have just messed it up, but how many frames free does an opponent in shield have during shine -> grab? Can they just shieldgrab? Can they roll away from this or spotdodge, but cannot counterattack before the grab comes out?

I'm just curious if shinegrab is a good option or not - I thought it was like -4 on shield if done perfectly (because I read somewhere a JC grab takes a minimum 8 frames, one for the jump and then 7 for Falco's grab, because the cancel timed properly means there is only one frame of jump animation - that plus multishine data implied to me that it was 45, where they are grabbed on the frame after their 4 frames of possible inputs), and therefore safe on shield and a strong option, but I want to be sure so I'll ask here.

 

[Kadano]

Frame data question:

Is shinegrab shieldgrabbable? I ask this because I was playing some friendlies with a Fox, and I go for a shine grab, but I get grabbed after landing the shine on his shield. Now, I'm not the best at tech skill stuff, and I think I may have just messed it up, but how many frames free does an opponent in shield have during shine -> grab? Can they just shieldgrab? Can they roll away from this or spotdodge, but cannot counterattack before the grab comes out?

I'm just curious if shinegrab is a good option or not - I thought it was like -4 on shield if done perfectly (because I read somewhere a JC grab takes a minimum 8 frames, one for the jump and then 7 for Falco's grab, because the cancel timed properly means there is only one frame of jump animation - that plus multishine data implied to me that it was 45, where they are grabbed on the frame after their 4 frames of possible inputs), and therefore safe on shield and a strong option, but I want to be sure so I'll ask here.

Unstale Falco shine does 5 frames shieldstun. While Fox is in that amount of lag, Falco has to go through 2 frames of shine lag and 1 frame of kneebend. Thus, you can start your grab 2 frames earlier than Fox can.
If your shine is somewhat stale, your frame advantage decreases to +1. If it’s completely stale, it’s zero, so if both of you have perfect execution, it’ll come down to port priority.

I doubt your shine will ever be completely stale in a serious match, so if you get grabbed before your grab comes out, it’s surely due to bad execution.

Spot dodge is intangible on frame 2, so yes, it always escapes your shine grab. Roll is frame 4, so holding shield and C-stick left / right to trigger a roll when someone gets hit by your shine will always escape your grab attempt as well.

http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-advantage-on-block.309694/

I would like to add some things to this chart (%, stun, greatest possible advantage on shield, etc.), but it's tedious, some of the stuff is hard to figure out, and it just takes a while. I think the values for BKB, KB growth, and angle of KB for each individual hitbox is way more useful than any of the other stuff, but the only person I've ever seen compile such data is Kadano and I have no way of testing it for myself. So until someone steps up and does the work, you'll just have to use the above link and test stuff on your own. *shrug*

http://www.mediafire.com/view/kwbkgsdok1dekd7/SSBM_Hitboxes_(NTSC_1.0)_&_Knockback_1.5k.xlsx

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Great work! This has helped me a lot.

 

[Torsade de pointe]

I see that downair and upair both have the same landlag.

That's so weird, I've always felt that upair has much less landlag than downair. Actually I've always thought that upair is the aerial with the least amount of landlag. When do a falling upair to shine/up-tilt (you can see zhu do it a lot btw), I feel like I can attack almost immediately after landing, whereas with a downair to shine/uptilt, I feel like I have to wait a tiny bit more. And I've always felt like I can act quicker out of an upair than out of a nair, not the other way around.

This is bugging me. Is it all in my head ? Maybe it's because I'm auto-canceling the upair, but I really don't think I am.

 

[Bones0]

I see that downair and upair both have the same landlag.

That's so weird, I've always felt that upair has much less landlag than downair. Actually I've always thought that upair is the aerial with the least amount of landlag. When do a falling upair to shine/up-tilt (you can see zhu do it a lot btw), I feel like I can attack almost immediately after landing, whereas with a downair to shine/uptilt, I feel like I have to wait a tiny bit more. And I've always felt like I can act quicker out of an upair than out of a nair, not the other way around.

This is bugging me. Is it all in my head ? Maybe it's because I'm auto-canceling the upair, but I really don't think I am.

Honestly, that has bugged me for a while too. Sometimes I swear the first hit of certain moves (like Falco's uair or Marth's nair) are autocancelling or experiencing reduced lag, but honestly I cannot confirm that so it might just be our brains being tricked by the severe lack of hitlag that is present for most moves. Even though they may have the same landing lag, the lack of hitlag significantly reduces the time between our input and when landing lag is over.

 

[tauKhan]

@Bones @ T Torsade de pointe
Assuming that all the moves are unstale and that you land immediately after hitting, then 1st hit uair has 5 frames of hitlag while nair and dair both have 7. So after both first hit uair and nair you can act on frame 15, while after dair you can act on frame 17. I think the hitlag is indeed the reason why uair landing lag feels lower than dairs. The uair landing animation also seems longer than nair, so the frame data is probably correct.

 

[Torsade de pointe]

I get those feelings when I do my aerials by myself (I mean without hitting anyone), so I don't know about hitlag.
I used the 20XX pack, and I felt like falco turns green a tiny bit quicker after an upair than after a dair, but again it's hard to say for sure ^^

On another topic, what does "Charge frame: 2" means on falco's dsmash ? Are his legs invincible during the charge is what I'd like to know.

 

[Bones0]

I get those feelings when I do my aerials by myself (I mean without hitting anyone), so I don't know about hitlag.
I used the 20XX pack, and I felt like falco turns green a tiny bit quicker after an upair than after a dair, but again it's hard to say for sure ^^

On another topic, what does "Charge frame: 2" means on falco's dsmash ? Are his legs invincible during the charge is what I'd like to know.

The charge frame is when you have to release A/Z by in order to avoid charging the attack. I don't know if the invincibility corresponds with the charge frame, but you can just check the frame-by-frame method I described at the top of the thread.

 

[Torsade de pointe]

Alright, but does "charge frame : 2" also means that falco freezes on the 2nd frame of the dsmash animation if you don't release A ? If so, falco's legs are invincible from frame 1 to frame 6, so they should be invincible during the charge.


frame 2 of the dsmash animation

Edit : just tested it to be sure : the legs are actually invincible during the charge. So is the head (but not the beak lol) for the upsmash. Let's try to put it to good use.

 

[Bones0]

Alright, but does "charge frame : 2" also means that falco freezes on the 2nd frame of the dsmash animation if you don't release A ? If so, falco's legs are invincible from frame 1 to frame 6, so they should be invincible during the charge.


frame 2 of the dsmash animation

Edit : just tested it to be sure : the legs are actually invincible during the charge. So is the head (but not the beak lol) for the upsmash. Let's try to put it to good use.

You can charge it during Peach's GUA or dsmash and it will whiff.

 

[Torsade de pointe]

Are you sure Peach's getup attack doesn't reach above his legs ? I can't find the gif on the peach framedata thread.

And against her downsmash, well I've never seen anyone use it, but it looks too cool not to try it out. I can already see the look on their faces ^^

 

[Bones0]

Are you sure Peach's getup attack doesn't reach above his legs ? I can't find the gif on the peach framedata thread.

And against her downsmash, well I've never seen anyone use it, but it looks too cool not to try it out. I can already see the look on their faces ^^

Maybe not if you're right on top of her (same with dsmash), but I'm fairly certain that at most spacings her legs sweep right through yours. It probably happens with a couple other characters too, but idk for sure.

 

[Torsade de pointe]

I tested it : against getup attack it never worked. But against her dsmash it works like a charm, even if you're real close.

 

[Bones0]

I tested it : against getup attack it never worked. But against her dsmash it works like a charm, even if you're real close.

Did you try both GUAs?

 

[Torsade de pointe]

I'm almost sure I did yeah

 

[Oddyesy]

Thanks for putting work into this! I'm using it for Liquipedia right now, so just wanted to drop by and say thanks

 

[Bones0]

Thanks for putting work into this! I'm using it for Liquipedia right now, so just wanted to drop by and say thanks

Thank you for taking the time to add it to Liquipedia. I didn't even do anything aside from format stuff. lol

 

[Torsade de pointe]

I'm gonna post that question here : in order not to get edgeguarded by Peach's classic dair to nair, which way should I SDI/ASDI the dair ? Down or away ?

 

[Bones0]

I'm gonna post that question here : in order not to get edgeguarded by Peach's classic dair to nair, which way should I SDI/ASDI the dair ? Down or away ?

It depends on the spacing. Just SDI whichever way will cause your character to avoid the nair. You can also SDI onto the other side of her body before the nair if you just want it to send you back on stage.

 

[EUROPEANonymous]

noob question sorry :

why is westballz doing that weird sheild pressure ( double shine > Dodge > shine ... )
i feel like its better to do only real double shines > short hop > nair/dair...

can someone explain me ?

 

[Bones0]

noob question sorry :

why is westballz doing that weird sheild pressure ( double shine > Dodge > shine ... )
i feel like its better to do only real double shines > short hop > nair/dair...

can someone explain me ?

Grounded doubleshines are better because you can do anything you want after the second one (including more shines). Doing the second shine in the air basically forces you to WL down in front of the opponent which is very punishable.

 

[EUROPEANonymous]

so its better to do only " real " double shines right ?

 

[Bones0]

so its better to do only " real " double shines right ?

Yeah.

 

[TheFuture]

Noob Question: How do I use frame data and hitboxes to advance my skill?

 

[Kadano]

Noob Question: How do I use frame data and hitboxes to advance my skill?

That’s the wrong way to think about it. If you notice a micro-interaction where you are not sure which option is the best, you should use frame data and good thinking to figure that out.

 

[N0PE]

Gotta love that frame data for the Taunt.

I picked Falco because he says "Heh" on Frame 2

 

[Jackson]

I sometimes struggle to follow up on Uthrow likely due to me moving too late after it's done. I'm having trouble making sense of the Uthrow frame data, on what exact frame can you move after you do it?

 

[Bones0]

I sometimes struggle to follow up on Uthrow likely due to me moving too late after it's done. I'm having trouble making sense of the Uthrow frame data, on what exact frame can you move after you do it?

It's based on the weight of the character being thrown. A good way to see this visually is to uthrow Jigglypuff (an extremely light character) and buffer a jump (hold shield + C-stick up). Then do the same thing with Samus (an extremely heavy character), and you'll notice it takes WAY longer to jump after the throw starts, and even the animation is noticeably slower.

Here is more detailed information on throws.

 

[Jackson]

It's based on the weight of the character being thrown. A good way to see this visually is to uthrow Jigglypuff (an extremely light character) and buffer a jump (hold shield + C-stick up). Then do the same thing with Samus (an extremely heavy character), and you'll notice it takes WAY longer to jump after the throw starts, and even the animation is noticeably slower.

Here is more detailed information on throws.

Interesting, thanks Bones.

 

[Mr Postman]

Are there hitboxes anywhere for his Ledge Attacks and Getup Attacks??? If anyone could link me to something that would be amazing. thnx

 

[Jacob Pouliot]

Does anyone know where I could find frame data for the lag after falco grabs the edge? I've been have a frustrating amount of trouble consistently doing perfect edge dashes and double lasers from the edge and I feel like knowing the frames would help me alot.