Data Falco Hitboxes and Frame Data

[Wenbobular]

Electric attacks have more shieldstun?

So like, unstaled low knees give frame advantage on block?
O_O

 

[Strong Badam]

Electric attacks have more hitlag for the victim than for the attacker. Normal attacks have equal hitlag for both players (unless it's an article like Fox/Falco's side-b, Sheik's Up-B, or any projectile, in which case only the victim has hitlag). Electric moves are the only case where hitlag has to even be considered when calculating frame advantage, as hitlag is different for the attacker and victim.

Unstaled perfect knee (land frame after hitlag ends) gives +4 on block after landing lag. To put it in perspective, it would be +0 if it weren't electric and the damage/landing lag was the same.

 

[Wenbobular]

Knee is so ****

 

[GimR]

Assuming fresh:
On shield:
3 frames of shieldstun, 4 frames of hitlag. +7
Falco lands. -4
On shield: +3.

On hit:
4 frames of hitlag. +4
Falco lands. -4
On hit: 0.

thanks man, I really appreciate it

 

[MasterC]

d*** this is all overwhelming lol i never really thought about it in terms of frames but is all this pretty common knowledge amongst smash-heads? science ftw xD

 

[Mogwai]

it's not really common knowledge. there are very few people who actually give a **** about frames tbh.

 

[Walt]

Frames are awesome, I love knowing more in depth things about games. They aren't always useful I just like knowing stuff.

Had no idea that stale had any effect on shield stun. A new thing that I know!

 

[mers]

I'm sure this has already been mentioned, but that utilt hitbox is just silly.

 

[MasterC]

so electric attacks have an extra frame advantage against shielding opponents right? what is all this "staling" you guys are referring to tho??

 

[Walt]

Stale is when you do a move and the next time you do it it's damage is sightly lower. It gets reset when you respawn and I think when you use a move 10 times after it gets it's weakest which is usually the move doing about half of it's starting percent. The term stale is used because of the bonus points award thing "Stale Moves"

 

[MasterC]

ahhhhhhh, thanx for clarifying... i never realized that damage gets scaled in melee, thought that only happened in brawl :/

ima mess around with that but does anyone know if it's the same/similar in ssb64?

 

[Bones0]

I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) the reason Brawl staling sucks is because staled attacks do less damage AND have less knockback. Melee has reduced damage on staled attacks, and the reduced damage causes a slight reduction in knockback, but not nearly as much as in Brawl.

 

[FoxLisk]

yup, you're right.

 

[Strong Badam]

both damage after the hit and the non-staled damage of the hitbox are used in the KB formula for Melee.
damage after the hit and staled damage of the hitbox are used in the KB formula for Brawl. no idea what they were smoking for that one.

 

[Mogwai]

they wanted the game to be fun and thought that move spamming is one of the least fun things in Melee. ironically, their solution just makes you spam more since you need to keep your KO moves fresh to have any chance of getting a kill.

 

[Vaccine]

could somebody tell me what the difference between shield hit lag and shield stun is

 

[Bones0]

Not 100% on this, but this is how I think it works.

When a move connects, it has a certain amount of hitlag, which is where both characters are frozen for a few frames. Hitlag is the same, regardless of whether or not someone is shielding. If you are practicing something by yourself (waveshines, shine-bairs, nair-shine shield pressure, etc.), you will notice yourself messing up a lot when you try to do it to a player because hitlag is added into the equation and you cannot input a jump or fast fall during hitlag.

Shield stun is completely separate. The developers didn't want people blocking attacks with their shield and then immediately being able to grab, spot dodge, roll, w/e out of shield. To address this, they created shield stun so when you get attacked on your shield, there are a few frames where you are stunned and cannot leave your shield. I like to think of shield stun the same as hit stun. When you get hit by an attack, you have hitlag followed by hitstun (which is when you're flying through the air in the tumble animation). If the attack hits your shield, you have shield stun instead of hitstun. That's how I think of it, anyway.

 

[Mogwai]

bones0 is correct, his explanations are pretty much spot on.

 

[Vaccine]

i appreciate you guys responding to my post, but i think your answering the wrong question. I was looking at the stats on falcos utilt when i was asking about the difference between shield hit lag and shield stun. i find myself shffling dairs/nairs -> shine whenever i get up close and personal. sometimes ill have my moves picked out before hand instead of reacting to my opponents. i will often encounter a scenario where i figure i have the potential to punish my opponent by dash -> shffl dair/nair -> shine, but unfortunately im not perfect and sometimes ill get hit or they get their shield up before i hit them or w/e. i would like to incorporate more utilt into my gameplay. i invision a scenario in which my opponent whiffs and i see a potential opportunity to punish them so i dash -> shffl dair -> utilt but they get their shield up. could i potentially get shield grabbed before/after the utilt, if my opponent and i are facing each other/my backs to my opponents fornt?

after i asked my question i thought about it for a while and i think that shield stun is where the shield must endure a set amount of lag upon contact with its attackers hit box before it can be lowered and shield hit is the same but its the lag the attacker experiences upon contact with the defenders shield.

the shield hit lag for the utilt is 5 and the shield stun is 11 which would give it a +6 frame avantage we also need to take into account the 23 frame duration of the attack. inorder to determine if one can be shield grabbed before/after an utilt during shield pressure i think it depends on the frame avantage the dair/nair gives you and at which point the utilt collides with the opponents shield.

i dont have the tools necessary to complete this equation if anyone could answer my question that would be awesome thanks. also i dont mean for it to sound like i know what im talking about. thats all just one big supposition. please correct me if im wrong.

 

[FoxLisk]

i mean the short answer is, yes, utilt can be shield grabbed. the long answer is i think you're confused almost entirely because of the largely deprecated and unfortunate term "shieldhitstun," and you should banish all thoughts of it from your mind because bones gave a very nice explanation of what's actually happening.

e: oh and part of the short answer is: you can be grabbed before the utilt if you throw an early dair but duh you probably knew that i have no idea if you can be grabbed after a late dair but i would suspect the answer is yes.

 

[Vaccine]

thank u

 

[MasterC]

lol yea HIV idk much about the game science or frames tbqh but i do kno that if you vary the time at which you dair/nair in your shffl you will have a greater advantage upon landing --> shine/utilt

 

[Pi]

if you're looking at what you can and can't be punished for then don't look at hitlag at all, both players suffer from it it's basically just a moment in time in which the game freezes for a fraction of a second

you should only look at hitlag if you're trying to find out if something is viable to react to or not

if you're trying to find out what moves are/aren't safe on shield, or rather what you can and can't be punished with when you attack a shield then only worry about shieldhitstun (which is the stun the opponent suffers from shielding an attack), the duration of the move you're attacking the shield with, and how fast their punishes come out vs. how fast you can dodge/attack back

for example;
Samus as a potential for a +1 frame advantage on her nair
the stats on her nair are:

N-Air

Total: 49
Hit: 5-29
IASA: 40
Auto cancel: <4 35>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7

--Strong hit--
Hit lag: 6
Shield stun: 14
Advantage: +1

--Weak hit--
Hit lag: 5
Shield stun: 11

what this means is that if you time the nair so that the hitbox connects with your opponents shield, after the 6 frames of hitlag, you land the very next frame. If you L cancel it you have 7 frames of lag (i'm assuming/pretty sure that hitlag was added to shieldhitstun here) and the opponent has 8 frames of shieldhitstun
giving you the +1 advantage

this situation probably does not occur very often, human error probably allows for a 2 to 3 frame window in most cases

i just realized that essentially i cannot be punished for nair if i delay it on a shield, and can bait a grab/oos punish and UB it...

 

[FoxLisk]

that's kinda cool but with samus's low fall/jump speed it's gonna be hella hard to pull off more than like ocne a match. you're just right in front of them with no hitbox out for too long.

but good explanation

 

[Giggidax]

this is amazing

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Does anyone have the shieldstun values for Falco's aerials? Would love to know.

 

[JeezImSoBored]

question: when you jump as falco, you are airborne on frame 6, does that mean shine OOS would take 6 frames or 7 frames if done asap?
same thing for shield drop (airborne on frame 2) shine, does that take 2 frames or 3 frames done asap?

basically, can you shine at the exact frame you are airborne or after?

 

[Bones0]

You can shine on the first airborne frame. The game can tell you're airborne for the shine input even if you didn't have a visible airborne frame.

 

[S.D]

Can someone tell me frame data wise whether Marth is guaranteed a grab after shine on shield with correct timing if you attempt to pressure with immediate SHFFL nair/dair? I ALWAYS get grabbed out of this type of pressue and have to to resort to shine grab/multishine exclusively. Does this only work as a mix up?

Edit: Reading the frame data shine has 5 frames of shield stun, you can get airborne from a short hop in 6 frames and a nair comes out on frame 4, does that mean perfect execution still leaves a 5 frame window? Sorry I'm bad with this stuff.

 

[Mogwai]

if you immediate shffl nair, he can't grab before the nair hits, however, you are vulnerable after he gets out of shield stun because you can't land fast enough to follow up from there. That's why you see Mango doing the fadeback with his nairs in this situation, which is very potent because it frequently baits Marth into whiffing a grab with proper spacing and sets you up for a nice fsmash punish on your landing, though I believe this frequently loses to Marth SH fairing you out of his shield after your fadeback nair if your spacing is even slightly off.

 

[Bones0]

You can fade back enough with a dair to avoid fair OoS. I tested it with M2K at Pound 5. They might be able to get you with shield DI, but that's super uncommon for people to do intentionally.

 

[CommonerCoffee]

Is the timing for wavedash out of shine different on-hit/on-shield vs hitting nothing? I can wavedash out of shine fairly easily when my shine hits nothing but if my shine hits a shield or a character I just cannot wavedash out of the shine for whatever reason. Any ideas or tips?

 

[Bones0]

Is the timing for wavedash out of shine different on-hit/on-shield vs hitting nothing? I can wavedash out of shine fairly easily when my shine hits nothing but if my shine hits a shield or a character I just cannot wavedash out of the shine for whatever reason. Any ideas or tips?

When you hit someone's char or shield, you undergo hitlag (a small number of frames where both characters freeze). To compensate, you simply have to input your WD a few frames later than normal (the actual timing of the airdodge for the WD is the same though).

 

[Splice]

Edit: Reading the frame data shine has 5 frames of shield stun, you can get airborne from a short hop in 6 frames and a nair comes out on frame 4, does that mean perfect execution still leaves a 5 frame window? Sorry I'm bad with this stuff.

Yeah there would be a 5 frame+ window but Marth takes 7 frames to grab, you have to consider how long the opponents move actually takes once the shield stun is over.
So with perfect execution you can get away with Nair. That said, I'm not 100% how the hit-lag we suffer interferes with all this :s

As Mogwai said, it's after the Nair that Marth can grab you. If you delay the Nair so that he doesn't have time to grab you before the shine, then you open up a window where he can grab you before the Nair.
A delayed Nair would not be a bad mixup if you are doing fadeaway Nairs like Mogwai suggested.

What's wrong with Shine JC Grab Uthrow btw? We don't really have great follow ups but Marth being above Falco is pretty cool guys.
Also is there any practical application of the IASA frames on our aerials? I mean in terms of using the move twice in one fall, that would get the next aerial hitbox out fastest, right?

Big question: In this thread, it tells us that shine gives 5 frames of shield lag. How many frames of shield lag do other moves give though? I simply can't find this on the other character boards frame data threads. If we get hit by sheiks Utilt, how many frames of shield lag do we have on the first hit? How many on the second hit? It's different for every move right? Never mind, didn't see StrongBads post at the bottom of the last page.

 

[Bones0]

What's wrong with Shine JC Grab Uthrow btw? We don't really have great follow ups but Marth being above Falco is pretty cool guys.
Also is there any practical application of the IASA frames on our aerials? I mean in terms of using the move twice in one fall, that would get the next aerial hitbox out fastest, right?

Shinegrab is definitely useful. The only thing "wrong" with it is you're already in Marth's space so you can usually get a better punish if you stay on top of him. It depends on the situation though.

Yeah, to aerial twice as fast as possible, you should be doing the second aerial during the IASA frames of the first.

 

[Splice]

Yeah, to aerial twice as fast as possible, you should be doing the second aerial during the IASA frames of the first.

But how can you apply this? When would you ever want to use two aerials in one jump?
Would there be a situation where both aerials could even hit someone?

 

[Bones0]

But how can you apply this? When would you ever want to use two aerials in one jump?
Would there be a situation where both aerials could even hit someone?

There's a ton of instances where you need to aerial twice, but they're all pretty situational. If you just watch videos you will see it come up once in a while.

 

[Splice]

There's a ton of instances where you need to aerial twice, but they're all pretty situational. If you just watch videos you will see it come up once in a while.

fair enough, fair enough. Thanks for the response dude!

 

[rpotts]

But how can you apply this? When would you ever want to use two aerials in one jump?
Would there be a situation where both aerials could even hit someone?

I don't think you'll actually be able to combo people very often with two aerials in one full hop but it's still very useful.

Say you're being shield pressured and you shine bair out of shield, but they shield the shine so they stay on the ground. Now you're above them in a bad spot already having burned your double jump. When you're on the way down you'll be able to get another aerial out just before you hit the ground, try another bair or dair, nair works as well. The point of this is to simply cover yourself in hitbox when you're weak so you have a better chance of getting out of those bad spots. At the very least you may trade and rack up some damage or maybe keep the opponent at bay while you get back to neutral.

Another scenario, say you're playing the spacing game on FD, and you've elected to use AC bairs while retreating. If you mix-up with a FH insta bair you'll appear to be in a bad spot after a tech error, but you'll be able to get a late bair/dair out as you're falling, possibly catching your opponent off guard as they espect to be able to easily DD grab you or get below you and upsmash/uptilt. Also, apparently you can FH laser -> late dair in a similar fashion, make your opponent think they need to capitalize on your tech error.

 

[Zorc Of Norway]

Great thread.

If anyone has the time, I would love to see a extended database for frame data and hitboxes for each move. For example, for moves the has separate hitboxes (like dash attck which has a slightly lager hitbox in the start) I would like to see what frame the second variation of the hitbox comes out. I would also like to see a picture by picture version of the hitbox gif because that would make it easier to compare the hitbox variation and get a better overview of the total range of the move. If something like this already exist please link me to it ^^''.

Good stuff tho.