PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

Mango could have slightly delayed that SH during dash back, giving him time to react to FH and confirm movement in. It would've been hard there of course.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Mango could have slightly delayed that SH during dash back, giving him time to react to FH and confirm movement in. It would've been hard there of course.

How does fade back dair work vs icies when you hit their shield vs when you don't? Here are a bunch of examples

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31pR61nHzIA

0:42 on shield, 1:12 on shield

What did this one at 1:17 accomplish? It was more of a mid range to guard against wd in, so is it just a timing mixup for guessing when they're going to wavedash? And then the mixup to that is lasering in place?

1:52, I think I could have gotten punished for this one if the icies had used their full wd momentum and done the full angle.

Also how should you be defensively bairing on thier shield? Like sh late spaced bair vs sh autocancel bair?

What about f tilt on their shield? 5:48 for example

I ask these questions because spacing moves on icies shield seems quite good, I'm just trying to figure out how to do it without getting my lag punished by wd grab/d smash.

 

[Dr Peepee]

May need to FF the one at 42 or you could be punished potentially, but it was fine.

Yeah kinda, but assuming they'll move in a lot is a bit silly imo. You can fake with DD to scout their movement in if you're concerned, as they could sometimes WD in to challenge your landing. I think laser was better at 1:17 or running up to them and spacing Dair/Nair given that Nana was hit. Better to take advantage imo.

Yeah

AC isn't useful vs them unless they jump.

Ftilt isn't too great vs them iirc, mayyybe if fully spaced? I personally only Dtilt their shield if need be.

 

[R3_]

hi. Just wanted to know when I should be on or off stage for edgeguarding vs fox thaaanks

 

[Dr Peepee]

Onstage when you're unable to do anything to get him, otherwise it's a mixup. Of course, if he's far away then onstage is usually pretty good so you can WD to grab edge for side B to edge. Beyond that it's tough. If you react to Fox up-B'ing well then going out there with SH DJ Dair or shine turnaround Bair or FH weak Dair are all good.

 

[R3_]

Onstage when you're unable to do anything to get him, otherwise it's a mixup. Of course, if he's far away then onstage is usually pretty good so you can WD to grab edge for side B to edge. Beyond that it's tough. If you react to Fox up-B'ing well then going out there with SH DJ Dair or shine turnaround Bair or FH weak Dair are all good.

thanks, so should I be grabbing ledge each time I get the chance (assuming hes far enough/I have enough time)? or is grabbing ledge considered offstage and part of the mixup?

 

[R3_]

also (falco vs fox) what do I do if fox no DI's utilt at around 40%, I keep going for fsmash preemptively expecting DI away or slight DI. Should I be going for waveshine onto plats (uair on fd)?

 

[Dr Peepee]

thanks, so should I be grabbing ledge each time I get the chance (assuming hes far enough/I have enough time)? or is grabbing ledge considered offstage and part of the mixup?

Please just edit your post next time.

Grabbing the edge is a mixup.

also (falco vs fox) what do I do if fox no DI's utilt at around 40%, I keep going for fsmash preemptively expecting DI away or slight DI. Should I be going for waveshine onto plats (uair on fd)?

You can Dair him back into the ground, dash Nair to carry him toward edge and/or combo directly, you can let him jump and Bair, or Utilt again and mix from there among a similar but new set of options. Fsmash is a fine mix from that point.

 

[Huey421]

When I do shield pressure, should i always fastfall before nair on shield?

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's usually good, but not doing it is a good timing mixup. If they're going to wait, then waiting on your Nair could be better to let their shield shrink for example.

 

[R3_]

is short hop, instant double jump good as a neutral tool (acting very similar to fox full hop) or is using your double jump like that too risky for neutral? maybe good vs characters like sheik who struggles dealing with that angle of attack?

also what are some methods for beating fox's full hop drill. I've done some labbing and sh high laser seems to be good for pressuring it (although it doesn't always work out) and utilt seems extremely good since it wins the trade 99% of the time. Just wanted to know if there were any other counters im missing
EDIT: found out bair works too (especially fh bair) but not really at low % obviously

(also sorry about not editing my previous post, I will definitely edit next time)

 

[Dr Peepee]

SH DJ is okay as Falco, but risker than Fox because of not having a DJ then yeah. It's best vs spacies I believe.

Shine OOS can be good, Bair is good, jumping into it sometimes is alright if it pushes you into the ground and you're immediately actionable and can shine(dont recommend this).

 

[Gibbs]

When I do shield pressure, should i always fastfall before nair on shield?

It's kind of a technical slog to read through but I would recommend reading through this post by Druggedfox on optimal fastfall timings. Learning to do the 'Sami Nair' which is detailed in this post is really really good to build into your kit.

DFox Blog Optimal Falco Fastfall Timings

 

[Gibbs]

also what are some methods for beating fox's full hop drill. I've done some labbing and sh high laser seems to be good for pressuring it (although it doesn't always work out) and utilt seems extremely good since it wins the trade 99% of the time. Just wanted to know if there were any other counters im missing
EDIT: found out bair works too (especially fh bair) but not really at low % obviously

(also sorry about not editing my previous post, I will definitely edit next time)

Just to add a little more to PPs response. In an absolute sense jumping into a FH drill that you're reacting to is usually not a great play. The risk reward on a read/callout/conditioned response, however is a totally different story. At low % in the fox mu, catching a jumping fox with FH Shine > platform waveland is simply one of the best openers Falco has vs Fox on BF/DL/YS/FoD (sometimes). Catching a fox on the way up or at the apex of his jump is an amazing position for the bird and is one that arises a lot from natural play vs jumpy foxes. Furthermore once you're airborne, if you're at low % you can get a reversal shine by holding down, even if you mistime it and get hit by the drill. This option simply does not work well if you're trying to do it reactively to the fox's FH animation, it's a proactive read on a FH that is medium risk - high reward when both the fox and falco are at low %.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Hey PP, I've been doing video review for basically all my matches lately (and it's great, I'm kicking myself for not doing this more in the past), but I ran into a certain situation today that I was very not comfortable with, and I would like to hear how you would break it down if you were watching a match of your own, and I would also like to see if there are any gaping flaws in how I'm looking at the situation myself.

I've included a screenshot of the moment below.

The Marth messed up a tech chase, and at this point I have just recovered from my tech and am at a dead stop in the center of the stage. The Marth doesn't have center but has already started a dash towards me and is in threat range for almost everything relevant: dash attack/dtilt/rising fair/nair and maybe the very tip of his dash grab range (please let me know if I'm missing something). For me the situation feels very weird, because although I'm not in knockdown and I have center stage, I feel like I'm still at disadvantage because Marth has already started his movement towards me and I don't feel like I can establish laser control without getting hit because I am too close to Marth, and at this percent getting hit could likely cost me my stock (and the match).

My decision making in the moment: I have a feeling he'll come swing at me, so I dash away -> shield stop in case he decides to commit to an attack, and if he doesn't then I can work from there. While I'm doing that, he doesn't swing and instead does a short dash back -> long dash forward to encroach on me further, and thus makes me believe he'll grab because I'm shielding. After my shield stop I do a SHFFL Bair OoS about as far to the right as I can assuming he'll get close to me so he can grab or even so he can swing and catch my movement out of shield, but instead he dashes back again out of my range and then is free to whiff punish my bair.

With hindsight I know that he was over-dash dancing and I was actually free to establish laser control despite being in his immediate threat range, and maybe with a better understanding of his mindset and habits before this situation I could have figured that out, but in the moment I feared getting his and losing my stock. At this spacing, perhaps where I went wrong was choosing a passive option like dash away -> shield stop. Maybe if I immediate dash -> nair/dair'd it would catch his approach before a potential attack and he wouldn't have the space to completely avoid it with a dash back. Or maybe if I WD'd towards him after the dash away -> shield stop then he would momentarily be frozen by it, as I don't think people react as quickly to the stimuli of WD towards them, and from there I would have closed the space and put myself in range to safely threaten him.

Again, I would like to hear your opinion about the situation if you were analyzing yourself, and also if I'm overlooking something when I analyze this situation or I'm approaching this problem from the wrong angle entirely.

Thank you!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah it's weird in that Falco needs laser advantage. I like half dashing back into turnaround laser there, but sometimes you need to full retreating laser to be safe. I'm willing to trade space for lasers given how great they are. WD back, slight wait to let him come in so you can Dair. and of course dash back are all fine options.

I would be wary with the rest of your analysis. You don't want to say "well of course he waited it's obvious" because in fact he may have only waited because you also waited. You want to establish a pattern: does he normally wait? This one situation would be inconclusive, and would only tell you about this type of situation then. You can use this to compare to the next time he has frame advantage but maybe not stage advantage(you can play with variables as you want). etc etc

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Thanks PP! That’ll help a lot both now and in the future. I wish you luck on your continued path to health and a return to competing~

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

So I think the coolest thing about peak is that the author, Anders Ericsson is like the main guy behind the idea of deliberate practice.

He's the guy that other books like The Talent Code and Outliers (which Ericsson talks about) reference when talking about practice so he definitely knows what he's talking about and it shows!

I feel like all the stories just go into so much more depth and Ericsson really tries to give you concrete tips on how the examples would apply to anything. There's also a lot of new ideas he presents which I haven't read before like mental representations, the importance of studying top performers (Smash is pretty big on this so I think its cool he talks about it), the role of talent, and a lot more.

IMO Peak just has so many specific examples/ideas making it a lot more helpful when you're trying to apply it.
So yea, you should definitely check it out!

Yo, after I saw this post I was curious and went out and bought the book. It was a fantastic read, thanks for the recommendation.

 

[Generaldair]

PP, do you have any tips on thinking more when you're playing and not going complete autopilot, like playing your opponent rather than just doing things at them?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Practice giving yourself time to respond. Laser and wait before aerial or laser again, laser dash back to observe then act based on what they do, etc. You may also find meditation and reducing tension generally to help you focus better. There are many angles to attack from.

 

[Generaldair]

Practice giving yourself time to respond. Laser and wait before aerial or laser again, laser dash back to observe then act based on what they do, etc. You may also find meditation and reducing tension generally to help you focus better. There are many angles to attack from.

I see
Also, do you have any tips on forming an effective practice routine, or if you already have any resources for this what they are?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I have a practice guide on my Youtube channel, which I would recommend to you.

 

[flyboy__]

Hi PP this isn't necessarily relevant to Falco, but why are you still playing this game? I've read and heard you talk about how it mirrors your life journey, but to me it seems like you are so far beyond using Melee to grow given that you're one of the 10 best players to ever pick up a gamecube controller. Why stick around 12 years after making your smashboards account, especially after all the tribulation you've faced the last four years?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hi PP this isn't necessarily relevant to Falco, but why are you still playing this game? I've read and heard you talk about how it mirrors your life journey, but to me it seems like you are so far beyond using Melee to grow given that you're one of the 10 best players to ever pick up a gamecube controller. Why stick around 12 years after making your smashboards account, especially after all the tribulation you've faced the last four years?

Excellent question. I will put some effort into answering this, so I may come back and do it tonight or tomorrow.

Okay so I think I can write about this now even if I am a bit tired. I want to cover all of my thoughts on this question. I think this is better for a post format than a video.

One of the first answers I think of when you ask me this question is: why doesn't a martial artist master quit? Their answer is usually that they have much to learn, that the journey has humbled them, that the art is just a way of discovering themselves, life, others....and deepening that connection and understanding in a never-ending process. There is always another layer of the onion. So for me, I feel I could play forever and not be truly done with the game, could not master it. Said differently, I do not fully know myself or know others, and have not found a way to fully respect the art of Melee and competing while thriving as myself(clearly), so work needs to be done.

A tangential answer to this is that I am very clearly not done with Melee. I still have goals I want to achieve, such as wanting to play well in tournament since becoming a top player, which has proved elusive for me. In my time since becoming crippled by health issues, I have realized I can now use this esports platform to do a lot of good and change people's lives. This is something I have dreamed of since I was very young, so leaving that without something else that can fulfill this emotional drive will be painful.

Let me respond to the last part of your question now. The difficulties I have experienced have largely come from Melee, but I could just as easily argue that Melee is only allowing me to hold up an ever more powerful mirror and reveal the deeper weaknesses I have. How could I have been so careless around Apex 2015? Is that REALLY Melee's fault for the way I acted? Did the game or community force me to leave at gunpoint? Of course not, and I can't blame toxicity either like some other community members could(not that I would anyway, hopefully). Competing in Melee is an extreme test of myself, and I will not let myself lose so easily as I think better of myself, and love the challenge/growing process too much to stop.

I keep rereading this and maybe I can give another angle. What else would I be doing? I need something else that could fulfill many needs such as teaching, changing lives, growing and potentially pushing myself, entertaining and connecting with others, and so on. Competing I may not always need, but I'd like at least 75% of those needs met before I could jump ship, or just get tired with other things in the Melee scene like the age/culture difference between myself and the community. Currently I do not have that avenue, but I do plan on developing it more once I'm better. If I'm right, it could be a nice side project that could also improve my Melee and give me a chance to be a beginner, all while giving me a rest from constant Melee grind that could burn me out. So in a way, I have begun answering what else will I do, but I have been surprised many times by the twists my life has taken, so I don't pretend to know the future. I'd like to reiterate here that it would really take a great thing to take me away from Melee as I do earnestly love it very much(I did not always feel so connected to it as a top player).

I feel I am missing something but can't think of what it is right now. I bet I will know later. "Why are you still playing the game....(if) it mirrors your life journey?" Because my life isn't over! Melee is life, or at least one major way to experience it. I am thankful for all Melee has given me and I want to give back. Maybe this post can do some of that for others. Thank you for your question <3

 

[flyboy__]

This is a really delightful answer and frankly more than I expected. Thank you for your depth. I respect you to the nth degree as a competitor, but more so have looked to you for your unbreakable attitude and mindset that there is no glass ceiling. Saying that, I am sure that there have been times you have felt very breakable, but I hope you can take pleasure in that you're still kickin' just as all of your fans take pleasure in it. It's inspiring to hear you say that there's still more to Melee. Definitely practicing after this post haha


As a followup question, it seems like you are very driven by the knowledge of the game and perfecting your mentality. Would you say that the discussion of mentality itself could be bad for mentality? I feel as though when one puts so much effort into having "the best mindset" rather than having fun, the whole concept becomes self-defeating, as people (in competition and in life) get so caught up in their head that they end up doing worse than if they hadn't thought at all. Moreover, how have you found balance in thinking both clearly and concisely?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think I needed to make the post as well, so thank you for asking the question very effectively =)

I am not seeking perfection, as that would be bad I agree. Unattainable standards just make you feel terrible. I am just trying to be better than I was. Smoothing out/accepting weaknesses and building strengths, finding new sources of each that I didn't know existed before. But I'm straying from your question.

People can become incredibly overly analytical, I would know! The advantage of consciously thinking and trying to solve is it creates space in your unconscious to keep working on it and build from your best conscious efforts, and also keeps you on the lookout for new answers in the world around you that you could otherwise miss. You also shouldn't ignore problems just because you don't want to think, don't want to experience pain or negative thoughts. So conscious thinking is good. But too much is bad as you said because it can lead to getting stuck in multiple places and being dissatisfied with your mind or the way things are. Sometimes there is not an answer, or not one you can immediately know. You must let it be in those situations and turn to what you can solve, or set out to find out instead of spinning your wheels. Sometimes people just like thinking more than solving, and this is where the problem comes in. Feeling safe and in control is good to an extent, but again can be taken too far. That's really the thing, you need balance with thinking and letting go. Balance meaning sometimes you spend a lot of time thinking and sometimes you don't, for one problem you do and one you don't....not 50/50 just as-needed. So for me, a good practice is to have a good idea of how I want to be that someone else models in their life, or an ideal of how to respond to things I know should be achievable. As long as I am not at my ideal, there is room to grow.

I hope this reasonably answers your question.

 

[flyboy__]

I think I needed to make the post as well, so thank you for asking the question very effectively =)

I am not seeking perfection, as that would be bad I agree. Unattainable standards just make you feel terrible. I am just trying to be better than I was. Smoothing out/accepting weaknesses and building strengths, finding new sources of each that I didn't know existed before. But I'm straying from your question.

People can become incredibly overly analytical, I would know! The advantage of consciously thinking and trying to solve is it creates space in your unconscious to keep working on it and build from your best conscious efforts, and also keeps you on the lookout for new answers in the world around you that you could otherwise miss. You also shouldn't ignore problems just because you don't want to think, don't want to experience pain or negative thoughts. So conscious thinking is good. But too much is bad as you said because it can lead to getting stuck in multiple places and being dissatisfied with your mind or the way things are. Sometimes there is not an answer, or not one you can immediately know. You must let it be in those situations and turn to what you can solve, or set out to find out instead of spinning your wheels. Sometimes people just like thinking more than solving, and this is where the problem comes in. Feeling safe and in control is good to an extent, but again can be taken too far. That's really the thing, you need balance with thinking and letting go. Balance meaning sometimes you spend a lot of time thinking and sometimes you don't, for one problem you do and one you don't....not 50/50 just as-needed. So for me, a good practice is to have a good idea of how I want to be that someone else models in their life, or an ideal of how to respond to things I know should be achievable. As long as I am not at my ideal, there is room to grow.

I hope this reasonably answers your question.

Thank you for your wisdom, PPsama : )))) "Sometimes there is not an answer, or not one you can immediately know" is the only way I've got through some challenges in life. It's cool to see that this game extends to be more than just a hobby or job. Hope you are feeling well :D

 

[Yort]

Excellent question. I will put some effort into answering this, so I may come back and do it tonight or tomorrow.

Okay so I think I can write about this now even if I am a bit tired. I want to cover all of my thoughts on this question. I think this is better for a post format than a video.

One of the first answers I think of when you ask me this question is: why doesn't a martial artist master quit? Their answer is usually that they have much to learn, that the journey has humbled them, that the art is just a way of discovering themselves, life, others....and deepening that connection and understanding in a never-ending process. There is always another layer of the onion. So for me, I feel I could play forever and not be truly done with the game, could not master it. Said differently, I do not fully know myself or know others, and have not found a way to fully respect the art of Melee and competing while thriving as myself(clearly), so work needs to be done.

A tangential answer to this is that I am very clearly not done with Melee. I still have goals I want to achieve, such as wanting to play well in tournament since becoming a top player, which has proved elusive for me. In my time since becoming crippled by health issues, I have realized I can now use this esports platform to do a lot of good and change people's lives. This is something I have dreamed of since I was very young, so leaving that without something else that can fulfill this emotional drive will be painful.

Let me respond to the last part of your question now. The difficulties I have experienced have largely come from Melee, but I could just as easily argue that Melee is only allowing me to hold up an ever more powerful mirror and reveal the deeper weaknesses I have. How could I have been so careless around Apex 2015? Is that REALLY Melee's fault for the way I acted? Did the game or community force me to leave at gunpoint? Of course not, and I can't blame toxicity either like some other community members could(not that I would anyway, hopefully). Competing in Melee is an extreme test of myself, and I will not let myself lose so easily as I think better of myself, and love the challenge/growing process too much to stop.

I keep rereading this and maybe I can give another angle. What else would I be doing? I need something else that could fulfill many needs such as teaching, changing lives, growing and potentially pushing myself, entertaining and connecting with others, and so on. Competing I may not always need, but I'd like at least 75% of those needs met before I could jump ship, or just get tired with other things in the Melee scene like the age/culture difference between myself and the community. Currently I do not have that avenue, but I do plan on developing it more once I'm better. If I'm right, it could be a nice side project that could also improve my Melee and give me a chance to be a beginner, all while giving me a rest from constant Melee grind that could burn me out. So in a way, I have begun answering what else will I do, but I have been surprised many times by the twists my life has taken, so I don't pretend to know the future. I'd like to reiterate here that it would really take a great thing to take me away from Melee as I do earnestly love it very much(I did not always feel so connected to it as a top player).

I feel I am missing something but can't think of what it is right now. I bet I will know later. "Why are you still playing the game....(if) it mirrors your life journey?" Because my life isn't over! Melee is life, or at least one major way to experience it. I am thankful for all Melee has given me and I want to give back. Maybe this post can do some of that for others. Thank you for your question <3

Great post, I needed this so badly.

"A tangential answer to this is that I am very clearly not done with Melee. I still have goals I want to achieve, such as wanting to play well in tournament since becoming a top player, which has proved elusive for me."

This issue plagues me constantly, and I sometimes feel like giving up because of my inability to feel satisfied with how I perform under pressure, anxiety issues have dominated a lot of my competitive life and I can't help but feel like i'm not fully expressing myself in tournament when I compete, regardless of who I beat or my placings. However, I cycle between intense motivation to overcome these issues and a feeling of wanting to give up as a result. Still not sure how I want to resolve that one but I seem to be unable to fully give up and i'm addicted to the opportunity for growth that melee has provided for me. This quote, "Competing in Melee is an extreme test of myself, and I will not let myself lose so easily as I think better of myself, and love the challenge/growing process too much to stop," really hammers into me how I feel when i'm at my most motivated after a low point, and I appreciate reading this feeling written in this way from your perspective.

https://youtu.be/rPsTejNV2nw?t=579
What made you opt for instant dj dair platform shield pressure at 9:39 rather than full hop bair into juggle?

https://youtu.be/rPsTejNV2nw?t=668
Do you think this full dash forward into close range laser might have been riskier than it was worth? Considering the reward from the laser beating his dash back being low, and the risk of getting hit by wavedash forward dsmash, i'm wondering what you think about the risk reward on this laser and the one after it that he dodges with wd forward ftilt.

https://youtu.be/rPsTejNV2nw?t=960
When you empty short hopped towards him, what influenced your decision to double jump rather than fall with a delayed laser or waveland back here? Do you think the double jump to top platform into fast fall laser would be better than waveland back into laser in place / approaching laser?

https://youtu.be/rPsTejNV2nw?t=968
I noticed you making these types of double jump reads very frequently versus duck, is this a samus thing in particular where they like to double jump out of hitstun frequently or mainly a duck thing?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Pretty sure I thought it'd knock down or that he'd be caught off guard by that. Sometimes you have to make those kinds of plays as Falco imo.

The reward being him having a smaller shield, taking damage, and being fully cornered is not a combo or kill that's true, but it leads into better pressure and a more likely combo starter. It is quite unlikely he'd punish there as Samus players like to shield and also don't want to get aerial'd. The other laser was a bit excessive perhaps(though maybe only in light of what happened) but no harm no foul to call out WD back/stay in shield imo.

I don't want to get hit by him since I'm higher percent so I DJ, but sometimes you just mix it up if you confirm him holding shield. And they are both very good in different ways.

Samus mains don't think they'll die so they'll DJ out more, but you can also react to it in certain situations/with good training/with good conditioning if they won't instant attack. Sometimes you have to guess though. If you laser and kill them going low then it becomes a mixup if they jump or not which is quite intimidating.

 

[J.I.L]

Wow, a falco thread. Finally I get to voice my opinion. FALCO IS TERRIBLE IN THIS GAME. His UP A isn't programmed proplery, and he has minmial kill options. He only has two kill options of forward smash and a broken (broken as in....it's BROKE...not broken good) up smash. His down smash is weak and usually never kills, and his grabs are weak and innefective. His lasers don't even give consitent damage either. Plus his side B dosen't go through shields like in smash 4. Why did these morons in japan NERF THE HECK OUT OF FALCO? HE WASN'T even that good in smash 4. He was "good"...but not like cheap. Now he's like a low C tier chracter. And falco is one of my mains.
HELP!

 

[Dr Peepee]

This is a Melee Falco thread, but I agree I wish Falco was good. Maybe smash 6

 

[R3_]

Wow, a falco thread. Finally I get to voice my opinion. FALCO IS TERRIBLE IN THIS GAME. His UP A isn't programmed proplery, and he has minmial kill options. He only has two kill options of forward smash and a broken (broken as in....it's BROKE...not broken good) up smash. His down smash is weak and usually never kills, and his grabs are weak and innefective. His lasers don't even give consitent damage either. Plus his side B dosen't go through shields like in smash 4. Why did these morons in japan NERF THE HECK OUT OF FALCO? HE WASN'T even that good in smash 4. He was "good"...but not like cheap. Now he's like a low C tier chracter. And falco is one of my mains.
HELP!

like PP said, this is a melee falco thread but they do have an ultimate falco discord here: https://discordapp.com/invite/HptPZcT

 

[R3_]

not really a falco specific question but idk where id ask this
what do you do when something distracts you from your goals in melee, whether it be irl stuff or other hobbies/interests. I know I personally always loop back around to melee but I feel like I spend too much time before I get back into it, how do you's deal with it?

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you want to spend time on Melee, then blocking out a portion of your day for it can be good. Then you can compare at the end of the day if you are spending time on what you think is valuable or not. If things come up occasionally, that's okay, just remember what you want to truly focus on and you'll reset yourself more easily.

 

[R3_]

thank you, I will try to enforce my goals in my mind frequently, I think that can help alongside what you side

also I think I struggle with tech chasing, my reaction time is nothing special (240ms~) should I try and hone my reaction time (if thats even possible) or should I build on a more reads based playstyle?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can do basic reaction tests if you want, but really if you practice in a specific situation then your reactions get better there. You know where to look. So just practice your tech chasing and your reactions will improve.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Hello PP!

I'm back to ask a question about another situation I ran into during match analysis that I would like your take on. This was a very short interaction that didn't even directly lead to a stock loss, but if I were put into the same situation again with the same information, I'm not sure how I would come to a winning decision.

https://youtu.be/P1FwRMKh6AU?t=762 (unrelated note: I don't know how to make gifs so I uploaded the whole match for this one moment lol)

So, in my mind, this is how I would describe it going down:

I'm cornered, having just whiffed a ledgedash -> utilt, but he doesn't immediately come in and try to whiff punish it. Instead he hangs back, and because I think he is trying to cover some type of panic option into the center, I decide to shoot a laser in place and establish laser control.

Throughout the matches he has shown he likes to FH in reaction to taking a laser or to avoid a perceived laser, although most of the other matches were on platform stages so maybe FD changed his decision making. Regardless, after the laser successfully lands, I move incrementally forward with a shield stop and shoot a second laser to stay safe and punish him if he does indeed FH (I thought I was just slightly too far to immediately jump into him after the first laser landed)

His reaction to getting hit by the first laser is to dash back and then dash forward into me (which I didn't expect), and thus he gets hit by the second laser.

So at this point, correct me if I'm wrong, but you've said that you don't normally advise more than 2 lasers in a row, right? I try to follow that rule pretty strictly in general, but after the second laser I assume he will once again do a dash back. Furthermore, I believe I'm just slightly too far away from him that I don't have enough time to hit him if he immediately does a dash back (but maybe I'm wrong).

Anyway, I do a third laser; a full dash SHL to catch his assumed dash back, BUT he doesn't dash back he actually picks a more aggressive option and dash jump shines into me, which I absolutely did not expect. In fact it seems like that option only would work in a situation where I jump forward but don't have a hitbox out immediately, so he either I was far too obvious in my decision making or he made a haphazard decision that just worked out well for him.

Anyway, my questions are as follows:
1) Where did I go wrong in terms of my decision making here?
2) Is there a fundamental error I'm making in how I'm breaking down this scenario?

Both during the match and during analysis I tried to establish a pattern of how what he would do relative to the options I was picking and where we were on stage, but perhaps I'm still not making fine enough distinctions between different situations.

Thanks PP, and please feel free to be as blunt as you would like!

 

[Dr Peepee]

There is context here I am missing that would otherwise allow me to perfectly answer this, and that is what has been happening before in situations like, what happened just before this, and what his preferences are. You did give me some of that though. However, I would like to add that that jump in shine would beat another dash forward laser or even a mid or especially late aerial forward.

To me it looks like he got hit for waiting, so he decided to go in. It's possible he reacted to your jump in as well but it's unsure without more information.

Part of why I say only do 2 lasers is people often change up what they're doing quite a bit if they see you shoot two and they tend to see three especially as camping. Or just they just start to expect many lasers in a row. The point is they adjust their strategy from thinking you will aerial or control space to thinking you will laser. This MAY make someone more defensive, but it isn't necessarily the case. It could lead to an approach like here, even if it's not the most common option. The approach could happen because they think they could hit you before the laser comes out(or they go over you with FH Nair). KJH and now Leffen have optimized Usmash and dash jump shine like this in this space when they expect laser, so it is something to consider more.

That's probably some of the main stuff. It's more meta to do that now, and your two lasers mattered. Let me know if this makes sense, and if you have other questions.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

That's very illuminating PP, thank you! I thought I offered ample context to the situation, but it seems I really underestimated how much prior information goes into looking at any given situation. In the future, I'll try to add more context about what happened in prior situations similar to that. However, was I not specific enough when I mentioned his preferences? Also, I'm curious, when you mention "what happened just before this", how far back in the match are we talking? 5 seconds? 10 seconds? The entirety of the stock up until that point?

I did have one more question about something that came up while I was watching another match of mine vs Fox.

https://youtu.be/MnnNu5Kv3ss?t=145

Background: this guy primarily dashes out of laser stun or does turn around utilt (and occasionally usmash) if he expects me to come in after a successful laser. If he shields lasers he will normally WD OoS either defensively or aggressively depending on the situation. Basically, he takes pride in very sparingly using FH as means to beat Falco in neutral. He demonstrates this throughout pretty much the entirety of the matches we played.

Leading up to the situation: He just whiffed a falling DJ dair in the center of the stage with his back turned to me, and I shoot a dash turnaround laser as soon as I notice that. Either expecting a laser or because he whiffs, he shields and takes the laser on his shield. He WDs away and then dashes back toward me with an usmash. In the meantime I do a shield stop laser, successfully hitting him out of his usmash well within my dash nair/dair threat range.

Situation: He gets lasered out of usmash, and I expect him to dash back out hit stun to avoid a perceived dash aerial, so I do a full dash laser. He just usmashes again out of the laser hitstun and that beats my approaching laser. He misses the tech chase, so IMMEDIATELY after that I land another successful laser on him and am unsure whether he will dash back or do another attack to try and beat full dash laser, so I do an incremental laser forward. Out of the hitstun of the first laser, he does a turn-around utilt which would have again beaten a full dash laser but because I incremental lasered he gets hit and I'm now right next to him with frame advantage. THIS TIME I finally do an immediate dash aerial but he finally dashes back out of laser stun and avoids my aerial approach.

In this scenario, I feel a bit lost because I tried to switch my patterns based on what I was threatening and what he seemed to like doing, but he systematically beat my decisions. I'm curious about how I could have better played this situation.

I suppose in hindsight, based on the fact that he didn't often FH in our matches, I could have full dash lasered into him after I made him shield originally, and been relatively confident I wasn't going to get punished. Also, I could have maybe chosen a better option after I landed the second successful laser, but I'm not really sure what I could have confidently chosen given the information I was working with.

So my questions would be

1) Am I still not giving enough context to the situations I'm asking about?
2) How would you play this situation had you been in it?

Thanks again PP!

 

[Dr Peepee]

It depends how much context is needed. Sometimes you mainly need what happened 2-10 seconds before, sometimes you need what happened in situations like that before, sometimes a combination of those, etc. You did mention some preferences yes, but it's possible he had some other preference that could have clued you into his desire to do this shine. It's possible not to have gotten that data though.

Okay so that extra context is somewhat helpful.

First of all, I think trying to win neutral with full dash in drift in laser is quite risky. It loses to everything until the laser is out, and if they move at all before the laser hits them so they're not shinable you can not get a good punish, so the risk reward is quite risky. The main advantage of this tool is to hit people who will wait regardless or who want to dash back if you would come in so you can put pressure on them from much closer.

I think overall you are getting into some trouble for trying to laser a bit much. I would say mixing in short waits or dash backs occasionally will solve some problems you have. You could dodge Usmash this way, and also directly punish the approaching Uair after the dropped tech chase for example.

Does this help?