PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

So the first thing that jumps out at me is you need to practice your different good tools more. If you're scared of messing up, then you certainly haven't practiced that stuff enough. It should just be another thing you can go into like a yolo Dair. If you're unsure of what positions it works in or what beats it, then you can test that. It's pretty straightforward. So that's the first thing.

The second thing is the options themselves I suppose. Pullback is okay, dash in laser in place is okay, dash in pivot drift in Bair can be okay, and so on. Defining low commitment is pretty important here. Is it just you want to space on them, put a move in front of them, something that could do both, something that gets you closer to them? Etc Defining that could be another way to come up with the options themselves.

I hope this helps.

 

[PAWN1]

Alright thanks for the help! Can you look this over and tell me if I have anything wrong here?

Also, I feel like dash attack is something I'm not sure about how to punish. I know Zhu does that cool backflip over a sheik/marth dash attack or grab -> dair thing but I'm sure there's other options. I haven't seen m2k dash attack much against your Falco from the vods I looked over so I could use a couple ideas there.

Same with Marth's jab, I'm not completely sure if it's actually punishable with DD grab.

Beating Marth's Main Options:

Jab:

• Laser in just out of range and F smash through jab
• Dash dance grab/JC shine

Dash in side B:

• Early dair/nair if you’re close

Take laser dash back:

• Dash -> no momentum jump -> laser
• Dash -> full momentum jump -> full drift back dair bait -> hopefully punish their option after the dash back

PS:

• Low lasers -> jump over the PS laser -> laser/aerial. Can change up the timings of when the lasers come out inside threat range to make the Marth have to read the timing

Dash attack:

• Dash away -> backflip dair

Dash in grab:

• Dair in place
• Dash away -> backflip dair

Worse options:


Early Fair:

• Nair him during cooldown
• Dair him during landing lag
• Laser him if you’re farther away
• Drift in with bair

Late Fair:

• Early nair/dair to hit him while he’s jumping
• Bair him during landing lag
• Laser his landing lag

Nair:

• Should only work if Falco lets Marth get away with it
• If you get hit with this, you’re either not lasering enough or fighting too close to Marth
• Set yourself up with lasers from a distance and if you see Marth trying approaching nair then stuff him
• If Marth is trying to use nair defensively, do slight lasers forward -> attack or DD whiff punish the nair

Up/F tilt:

• Dash dance nair/dair
• Dash dance JC shine/grab
• Space F smash his lag

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

So the first thing that jumps out at me is you need to practice your different good tools more. If you're scared of messing up, then you certainly haven't practiced that stuff enough. It should just be another thing you can go into like a yolo Dair. If you're unsure of what positions it works in or what beats it, then you can test that. It's pretty straightforward. So that's the first thing.

The second thing is the options themselves I suppose. Pullback is okay, dash in laser in place is okay, dash in pivot drift in Bair can be okay, and so on. Defining low commitment is pretty important here. Is it just you want to space on them, put a move in front of them, something that could do both, something that gets you closer to them? Etc Defining that could be another way to come up with the options themselves.

I hope this helps.

What is falco's win condition in the yoshi matchup?

What is yoshi's win condition in the falco matchup?

 

[woglofungi]

yo I was just playing and I accidentally wavelanded off every platform and I reached lightspeed, I couldn't even see falco.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Alright thanks for the help! Can you look this over and tell me if I have anything wrong here?

Also, I feel like dash attack is something I'm not sure about how to punish. I know Zhu does that cool backflip over a sheik/marth dash attack or grab -> dair thing but I'm sure there's other options. I haven't seen m2k dash attack much against your Falco from the vods I looked over so I could use a couple ideas there.

Same with Marth's jab, I'm not completely sure if it's actually punishable with DD grab.

Beating Marth's Main Options:

Jab:

• Laser in just out of range and F smash through jab
• Dash dance grab/JC shine

Dash in side B:

• Early dair/nair if you’re close

Take laser dash back:

• Dash -> no momentum jump -> laser
• Dash -> full momentum jump -> full drift back dair bait -> hopefully punish their option after the dash back

PS:

• Low lasers -> jump over the PS laser -> laser/aerial. Can change up the timings of when the lasers come out inside threat range to make the Marth have to read the timing

Dash attack:

• Dash away -> backflip dair

Dash in grab:

• Dair in place
• Dash away -> backflip dair

Worse options:


Early Fair:

• Nair him during cooldown
• Dair him during landing lag
• Laser him if you’re farther away
• Drift in with bair

Late Fair:

• Early nair/dair to hit him while he’s jumping
• Bair him during landing lag
• Laser his landing lag

Nair:

• Should only work if Falco lets Marth get away with it
• If you get hit with this, you’re either not lasering enough or fighting too close to Marth
• Set yourself up with lasers from a distance and if you see Marth trying approaching nair then stuff him
• If Marth is trying to use nair defensively, do slight lasers forward -> attack or DD whiff punish the nair

Up/F tilt:

• Dash dance nair/dair
• Dash dance JC shine/grab
• Space F smash his lag

DA loses to WD back, dash away when you're just in range for it, shielding it, holding down vs it. Lasering it too as it comes out, and Dair'ing over it as well I suppose. Getting closer to him keeps him from doing it since it would only weak hit then.

Marth's Jab you can Fsmash and Dair, and of course if you crouch it you can shine as well.

Can also hold down vs side B.

Laser Nair landing.

Otherwise seems alright.

What is falco's win condition in the yoshi matchup?

What is yoshi's win condition in the falco matchup?

Falco: Nair/Dair/Bair/occasionally Utilt Yoshi out of the air, land a shine, get close with a laser out.

Yoshi: Get close to Falco with no laser out, preferably with him shielding.

 

[PAWN1]

I was looking for a couple options for dash attack and I get six ^_^ Thanks man. And when you say you can dair Marth's jab, you're talking about punishing the lag after jab right?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You're welcome!

And yes that's right, Marths have been complaining to me that they get Dair'd in between their jabs so I know it's possible lol.

 

[Galfurir]

Hey, Dr. Peepee, I was wondering if you would be able to look at a set I played against a puff and if you could give me some pointers or pick out things that were blatant errors. There was a few times I could have reacted quicker and got a follow up and there were also a few moments when my defense could have been much better. If not, I also have a few questions. What should my priorities be in the matchup? Should I elect to hold center and keep them out with zoning tools and try to get follow ups? I know that’s not an end all solution against Puff, but should the priority be to try and bait out her bair for example. I feel like falco’s bair beats puff if she’s jumping out of shield at the same time as Falco, but I’m not TOO sure. Here’s the VOD link if you’re able to take a look: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/408207135?t=12970s

 

[Dr Peepee]

I prefer being asked questions about specific positions, but I'll look at the things that stand out quickly.

No need to FH laser if Puff is high, just try working your Bair/Utilt/occasionally FH Nair/Dair more.

Your tech needs work.

When you have Puff cornered, no need to move far away. Stay out of range of immediate Bair and you can threaten her fine. Also, attacking directly from the top BF platform is okay, but you need to mix it up more. It's a long way down.

Don't SHL if Puff is on a side platform or higher and either can't or is unlikely to get hit by it. Set up a delayed laser, or set up a position to Bair. These lasers give Puff plenty of time to get in on you.

 

[Galfurir]

I prefer being asked questions about specific positions, but I'll look at the things that stand out quickly.

No need to FH laser if Puff is high, just try working your Bair/Utilt/occasionally FH Nair/Dair more.

Your tech needs work.

When you have Puff cornered, no need to move far away. Stay out of range of immediate Bair and you can threaten her fine. Also, attacking directly from the top BF platform is okay, but you need to mix it up more. It's a long way down.

Don't SHL if Puff is on a side platform or higher and either can't or is unlikely to get hit by it. Set up a delayed laser, or set up a position to Bair. These lasers give Puff plenty of time to get in on you.

Gotcha, I’ll ask more specific questions then. I appreciate you taking a look though. So when you say delayed laser, do you mean waiting for an approach and lasering the approach? Or do you mean waiting to laser. Or do you mean something else? And when setting up for up-tilt or back airs, do you think they would be best placed (using battlefield as an example) when I’m underneath puff on middle platforms. I would think especially if they’re trying to shield drop or get down from platform. I often like using up airs in those situations as well but I often don’t get follow ups after usually. If I think of more things, I’ll be sure to ask. Especially with other characters, more specifically Sheik and Ice climbers. And I’ll be sure to read more of the thread, thanks.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes to both definitions of delayed. Don't always need to do it ASAP.

You can't always be directly underneath Puff, but you need to be largely below her for Utilt to work best. Bair is better because you can dash(pivot or WD anyway) and also the effective area you cover with it is better.

 

[R3_]

hi again, what exactly does win condition really mean? I feel like it's just "what is the characters best advantage in the matchup" but I haven't seen anyone define it yet

 

[Dr Peepee]

I define win condition as the position you are looking to achieve in neutral that gives you the greatest chance of winning the interaction. I change how I deliver it when people ask because I'm not sure what they're looking for.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

In the position where you’re sharking peach from top platform and she goes to one side instead of on top of you, do you have options other than sh nair and sh laser at her? When I nair sometimes in that position my nair sometimes gets beat by her bair. How do those two moves interact? Is there a way to do it such that it wins a large percentage of the time? If not then should I be lasering in that position mostly instead.

When you’re sharking her from the ground what do you think of ccing her bair into jab confirm upsmash/bair? Also what do you think of straight up grabbing her landing? What conditioning would you need to establish to make these options work better? Are these options supplements to the main option of baiting/pivot baiting her or a crucial part of some mixup?

How do falcos nair and dair interact with peach’s quick grounded float nair when she’s trying to catch you coming in? How do those moves interact when she’s trying to do the nair over mid laser height?

If I lasermarth at the peak of his sh right outside of his sh nair range can I hit him with my own sh nair before he gets his takelaser fair out? Can he jump out of that? If he can fair what is the mixup there?

What’s the difference between a fadeforward, fade back, and standing bair/dair vs Luigi’s wavedash in usmash and downsmash?

Are there other ways to force simplicity besides sticking to 1-2 dashes?

The more I improve the more frustrating Marth on FD becomes. How should I change my gameplan on that stage? How does Marth's gameplan change besides the fact that he is looking for grab more? Should I be abusing that full dash back laser to establish laser control into a moving forward laser?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You could turnaround SH/WD off and DJ Bair her, or move to the side platform and Utilt/shield grab/whatever her Bair ending lag. You can't cleanly beat Bair with Nair iirc.

That CC is okay, but you have to watch for her CC back, which is common as she lands as she wants to WD back a lot. Grabbing her landing isn't often useful as it's low reward and decent risk and you often aren't in good range to do it, but occasionally it's fine to keep momentum or hit her if she reacts poorly(or if you just want her closer to edge). Those options can supplement.

If she's doing that low to the ground Nair, your Dair should win. I think Nair might but it may depend I'm not sure I don't see Peaches do that Nair much in general but especially vs Falco due to laser. Those moves often lose to her hitting you on the head when she's higher up, but Dair could trade and Nair'ing over her could beat her Nair. This is why Peaches often Bair/Fair vs Falco instead.

Depends on how high the laser you shoot is potentially and maybe also if the Marth SDIs away. I believe he could get a Fair out, but it may trade which could be fine sometimes. He could definitely jump out of it, which you could chase with dash FH or dash pivot FH Bair, or wait, etc. Mixup is either attacking his landing lag or Fsmash'ing/Ftilt'ing maybe.

Depends on initial spacing and the timing matters too. Late Bair is fine vs both but would lose to getting hit early, and could potentially have its landing pressured by both for example.

I have reminded myself lately that doing stuff before I do a laser in a setup can help slow me down and think consciously, so maybe you can try that. Do dashes and/or WDs before your laser, and don't stick in one place too long. Make decisions, stay mobile.

Practiced ways to break the CG would probably help, as would being able to fight him grounded when he can dash back more than on smaller levels. I doubt Marths get on platforms much so that shouldn't change. Beating grab just means avoiding shield grabs, letting him throw himself at you when you shield a little bit more and spotdodge/roll/FH/WD back or whatever. Not much different.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

You could turnaround SH/WD off and DJ Bair her, or move to the side platform and Utilt/shield grab/whatever her Bair ending lag. You can't cleanly beat Bair with Nair iirc.

That CC is okay, but you have to watch for her CC back, which is common as she lands as she wants to WD back a lot. Grabbing her landing isn't often useful as it's low reward and decent risk and you often aren't in good range to do it, but occasionally it's fine to keep momentum or hit her if she reacts poorly(or if you just want her closer to edge). Those options can supplement.

If she's doing that low to the ground Nair, your Dair should win. I think Nair might but it may depend I'm not sure I don't see Peaches do that Nair much in general but especially vs Falco due to laser. Those moves often lose to her hitting you on the head when she's higher up, but Dair could trade and Nair'ing over her could beat her Nair. This is why Peaches often Bair/Fair vs Falco instead.

Depends on how high the laser you shoot is potentially and maybe also if the Marth SDIs away. I believe he could get a Fair out, but it may trade which could be fine sometimes. He could definitely jump out of it, which you could chase with dash FH or dash pivot FH Bair, or wait, etc. Mixup is either attacking his landing lag or Fsmash'ing/Ftilt'ing maybe.

Depends on initial spacing and the timing matters too. Late Bair is fine vs both but would lose to getting hit early, and could potentially have its landing pressured by both for example.

I have reminded myself lately that doing stuff before I do a laser in a setup can help slow me down and think consciously, so maybe you can try that. Do dashes and/or WDs before your laser, and don't stick in one place too long. Make decisions, stay mobile.

Practiced ways to break the CG would probably help, as would being able to fight him grounded when he can dash back more than on smaller levels. I doubt Marths get on platforms much so that shouldn't change. Beating grab just means avoiding shield grabs, letting him throw himself at you when you shield a little bit more and spotdodge/roll/FH/WD back or whatever. Not much different.

I have reminded myself lately that doing stuff before I do a laser in a setup can help slow me down and think consciously, so maybe you can try that. Do dashes and/or WDs before your laser, and don't stick in one place too long. Make decisions, stay mobile.

How does adding an action help you slow down? And does it help you think consciously because you have more things to be attentive to? And why does the movement have to be necessarily before the laser? Doesn't lasering in itself give Falco a decision point to stay conscious and grounded in the match?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I find that I always want to act quickly off of a laser in order to use the frame advantage it gives me. I am working on slowing back down after doing it, but it's a personal habit of mine that I notice in myself and often other Falcos. It's not adding an action in my mind, it's changing the starting action from laser to something else.

 

[PAWN1]

Omg this is happening, can't wait for your stream!

Today I've been working on my gameplay vs Marth and was noticing myself getting hit a lot with nair over my low lasers. I know that low lasers tend to be hard to powershield so I've been working on getting them consistent in friendlies/tourney since they're pretty consistent at home. You mentioned a while ago that you should only be getting hit by nair if you let Marth do it, and was wondering if you could expand on this idea.

And when do you choose to do high laser vs low laser vs Marth?

Also, somehow I've been getting hit by Marth doing full hop approaching fair a lot. I was definitely trying to force my gameplan of low laser -> low laser -> anticipate some action and approaching dair/grab/retreating dair but I'm not sure how dealing with full hop here fits into that.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

I find that I always want to act quickly off of a laser in order to use the frame advantage it gives me. I am working on slowing back down after doing it, but it's a personal habit of mine that I notice in myself and often other Falcos. It's not adding an action in my mind, it's changing the starting action from laser to something else.

So you're trying to slow down after laser to make better decisions even though you lose a few frames? And from there you build speed? Or do you think that you should "always" be trading that frame advantage for a "slightly better" decision? Or is it different in tourney vs friendlies for example? Where in tourney you trust your inner situational awareness and resulting decision asap but in friendlies you're more conscious?

Ah I see, so dash back -> laser is one action, as is dash forward -> laser, if you've practiced the tool enough. On a similar note, can more complicated sequences like multiple actions be one action? Is there a limit to that process of connecting sequences of tools into one action?

Have noticed recently that going to side plat when cornered/on ledge on bf/dl is super amazing because then you just go to top plat with falco's full hop. I've recently been spamming it to an extent that it seems much much better than I thought it was originally. Because playing from the top plat feels like almost an even neutral position for falco in most matchups. Just wanted to know your basic thoughts on it, and once people start catching onto it how I can best take advantage of that.

In falco ditto is it better to shield lasers with back turned or facing them? Does this change when they're in threat range vs when you're just trying to shield a laser for the laser war?

How do you like to consciously watch melee casually, i.e. skimming through tourney vods or watching a tourney live? My preferred way is to guess what adaptations the falco will do and see if they actually do them, pretty rewarding sometimes.

Also I'm having trouble still uptilting foxes fh approaching at me, I know I'm doing it early but it feels like with up tilt you have to guess between them either ff or not, that is after you have confirmed their fh. So I'm starting to think because of all of these variables that bair and dash back are more solid answers to fox's fh approach, with up tilt better done once you have info on their preferred ff timing, approach range, etc. Is this true? Or is there maybe a way to cover both ff and non ff fox drill from a fh with up tilt?

Lot's of random q's because I was at HFlan and played a ton of Melee so I have lot's of random thoughts about lot's of different matchups.

Can't wait for the stream PP, you've given so much to the falco/marth threads that I feel tuning in is the least I can do < 3

 

[Dr Peepee]

Omg this is happening, can't wait for your stream!

Today I've been working on my gameplay vs Marth and was noticing myself getting hit a lot with nair over my low lasers. I know that low lasers tend to be hard to powershield so I've been working on getting them consistent in friendlies/tourney since they're pretty consistent at home. You mentioned a while ago that you should only be getting hit by nair if you let Marth do it, and was wondering if you could expand on this idea.

And when do you choose to do high laser vs low laser vs Marth?

Also, somehow I've been getting hit by Marth doing full hop approaching fair a lot. I was definitely trying to force my gameplan of low laser -> low laser -> anticipate some action and approaching dair/grab/retreating dair but I'm not sure how dealing with full hop here fits into that.

Thanks, should be very fun!

You can mid height laser that hits dash and SH and you can SH over the PS against Marth. Alternatively, you can just shoot a bit earlier or dash back so that Nair doesn't get you at worst possible time. It's a slow move.

I usually shoot low.

Dash FH Nair/Dair, turnaround/pivot SH/FH Bair, and move back Bair/laser the landing solves this.

So you're trying to slow down after laser to make better decisions even though you lose a few frames? And from there you build speed? Or do you think that you should "always" be trading that frame advantage for a "slightly better" decision? Or is it different in tourney vs friendlies for example? Where in tourney you trust your inner situational awareness and resulting decision asap but in friendlies you're more conscious?

Ah I see, so dash back -> laser is one action, as is dash forward -> laser, if you've practiced the tool enough. On a similar note, can more complicated sequences like multiple actions be one action? Is there a limit to that process of connecting sequences of tools into one action?

Have noticed recently that going to side plat when cornered/on ledge on bf/dl is super amazing because then you just go to top plat with falco's full hop. I've recently been spamming it to an extent that it seems much much better than I thought it was originally. Because playing from the top plat feels like almost an even neutral position for falco in most matchups. Just wanted to know your basic thoughts on it, and once people start catching onto it how I can best take advantage of that.

In falco ditto is it better to shield lasers with back turned or facing them? Does this change when they're in threat range vs when you're just trying to shield a laser for the laser war?

How do you like to consciously watch melee casually, i.e. skimming through tourney vods or watching a tourney live? My preferred way is to guess what adaptations the falco will do and see if they actually do them, pretty rewarding sometimes.

Also I'm having trouble still uptilting foxes fh approaching at me, I know I'm doing it early but it feels like with up tilt you have to guess between them either ff or not, that is after you have confirmed their fh. So I'm starting to think because of all of these variables that bair and dash back are more solid answers to fox's fh approach, with up tilt better done once you have info on their preferred ff timing, approach range, etc. Is this true? Or is there maybe a way to cover both ff and non ff fox drill from a fh with up tilt?

Lot's of random q's because I was at HFlan and played a ton of Melee so I have lot's of random thoughts about lot's of different matchups.

Can't wait for the stream PP, you've given so much to the falco/marth threads that I feel tuning in is the least I can do < 3

I was saying in a new situation, such as out of a tech chase where they miss and neutral is reset, you don't start what you're doing with laser right away. Or once you have laser out and they respect it, you can go without it for a bit. That sort of thing. But what you said is true too.

I prefer to call 2-3 action strings a setup and that's generally the limit. You can group things like dashes past that for more general influence, but this matters less as Falco.

You can dash FH from floor to top platform which really makes people mad lol, but yeah that's great. If they see it coming they have to catch you after you dash, so you just dash in and don't do it, or FH DJ.

Back turned generally. Bair OOS is so good.

I guess what will happen and also think of trends. I also find thinking of how they will solve matchup problems important before it starts and comparing solutions.

I don't know I never had that issue. I'd test it to be sure, but Bair works okay too.

Thanks man.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Just discovered something that I've never heard anyone talk about before. When you're in the laser war and you want to shield a laser and then counter with your own sh laser, you can flick the c stick up to short hop basically as soon as the opponents laser hits your shield instead of pressing x or y because c stick makes your character jump oos asap even if you press up and hold it before your character is actionable. So by doing this technique you can essentially get a frame perfect jump oos out of shield stun! Has anyone heard of someone doing this before in this specific situation? Also before today I didn't know that you could sh oos with c stick.

If not I am humbly calling this a Mamba laser... LMAO

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes that has been known for quite a while but isn't talked about so much lol. I've never heard anyone specifically talk about it in regard to laser stun, but since it's been known for so long I'm sure it's been done. You can call it mamba laser if you want lol.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Yes that has been known for quite a while but isn't talked about so much lol. I've never heard anyone specifically talk about it in regard to laser stun, but since it's been known for so long I'm sure it's been done. You can call it mamba laser if you want lol.

to clarify I knew you could use c stick to fh oos before today. Also if PP says you can call something after yourself then I'm taking it haha. At least until some random old school falco says they've been doing c stick oos laser in the laser war for the past decade.

 

[PAWN1]

This is a little late but I really enjoyed your stream! It was so nice to see your falco combos again! I have a question about them specifically after you shine Sheik(pretty sure this applies to Marth too) and she ends up above a platform at around 20-30%. This situation comes up fairly often and I notice that you often go for nair to push them to the side of the platform rather than dairing them to the platform. I know that it can set up a spike offstage at times but I was wondering if you could go into your reasoning on this.

Also, after reading through your Twitter and such I noticed you take cold showers and run - both things I haven't done in months. Inspired, I went out for a run yesterday for about a mile and a half and took a cold shower afterwards and honestly I haven't felt so refreshed in a long time. I've been feeling a little down for a couple weeks now and that combo of that post exercise glow plus the cold shower was super nice. My head just felt so clear afterwards I'm looking forward to doing it again! Just wanted to put that out there, you've been and continue to be helpful both inside and outside the game!

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Yes that has been known for quite a while but isn't talked about so much lol. I've never heard anyone specifically talk about it in regard to laser stun, but since it's been known for so long I'm sure it's been done. You can call it mamba laser if you want lol.

During the stream I saw you do cc into jab while the marth was offstage and tried to swing at you with fair. I think you only did it 2-3 times but can you talk a little bit about that option? Are you just testing it out or is that your preferred option in that scenario. I've had a similar idea in mind of doing cc f tilt because of the range and you can angle it depending on where they are, specifically the downwards angled one seems quite good because they sometimes try to ff passed you after the fair.

https://vods.co/v/fnjhvh
1:48
How do you play that position where peach is already above you with her dair out?

8:20
Do you think it was smart to laser and back up outside of the turnip range? Or should you move in more in that position so you don't corner yourself? Although peach is so far away that moving back probably doesn't matter.

 

[Dr Peepee]

This is a little late but I really enjoyed your stream! It was so nice to see your falco combos again! I have a question about them specifically after you shine Sheik(pretty sure this applies to Marth too) and she ends up above a platform at around 20-30%. This situation comes up fairly often and I notice that you often go for nair to push them to the side of the platform rather than dairing them to the platform. I know that it can set up a spike offstage at times but I was wondering if you could go into your reasoning on this.

Also, after reading through your Twitter and such I noticed you take cold showers and run - both things I haven't done in months. Inspired, I went out for a run yesterday for about a mile and a half and took a cold shower afterwards and honestly I haven't felt so refreshed in a long time. I've been feeling a little down for a couple weeks now and that combo of that post exercise glow plus the cold shower was super nice. My head just felt so clear afterwards I'm looking forward to doing it again! Just wanted to put that out there, you've been and continue to be helpful both inside and outside the game!

I said it today to toph, but in case you missed it I like hitting Sheik to the side because she can't drift or hit well below herself and I can FF and set up Bairs/Utilts/more stuff and her SDI can't mess with it as much as Dair. At worst maybe she goes away and gets cornered/on edge and that's fine with me.

Amazing, super glad that helped you! So much of success is a connection of in and out of game factors. Glad it worked for you =)

During the stream I saw you do cc into jab while the marth was offstage and tried to swing at you with fair. I think you only did it 2-3 times but can you talk a little bit about that option? Are you just testing it out or is that your preferred option in that scenario. I've had a similar idea in mind of doing cc f tilt because of the range and you can angle it depending on where they are, specifically the downwards angled one seems quite good because they sometimes try to ff passed you after the fair.

https://vods.co/v/fnjhvh
1:48
How do you play that position where peach is already above you with her dair out?

8:20
Do you think it was smart to laser and back up outside of the turnip range? Or should you move in more in that position so you don't corner yourself? Although peach is so far away that moving back probably doesn't matter.

CC jab can be good to pop them up for spike if they hold in, and if they hold out Ftilt can be better depending on percent etc. Can be better to just CC sh dair sometimes lol.

Dash back pivot FH and see if you can DJ Bair. Or just get on top platform/fake and wait since she's kinda high.

Backing up is fine vs turnip, but if you always do it she could just push in more.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

I said it today to toph, but in case you missed it I like hitting Sheik to the side because she can't drift or hit well below herself and I can FF and set up Bairs/Utilts/more stuff and her SDI can't mess with it as much as Dair. At worst maybe she goes away and gets cornered/on edge and that's fine with me.

Amazing, super glad that helped you! So much of success is a connection of in and out of game factors. Glad it worked for you =)


CC jab can be good to pop them up for spike if they hold in, and if they hold out Ftilt can be better depending on percent etc. Can be better to just CC sh dair sometimes lol.

Dash back pivot FH and see if you can DJ Bair. Or just get on top platform/fake and wait since she's kinda high.

Backing up is fine vs turnip, but if you always do it she could just push in more.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/414322698

What do you think of defensive sh nair in the falco ditto? Like after you lose the laser war and you want to catch their approach?

1:15:13
What should I have done to contest his dair?
In general, when falco is coming down with dair, do prefer to interact with it and bair/up tilt it? Or do you like to outspace it and punish the landing lag?

1:20:16
What advantage does the falco on the low-side platform on fod get? You can't SDr laser and the other falco gets to get comfortable approches on your shield with sh nair.

1:21:00 also 1:21:39 (but he wasn't out of grab range)
When you do dash back laser against an approaching falco and they get hit by laser but they're outside of your grab range? Also what do you think of those down tilts I did afterwards? Seems good in theory cause of range/frame 8 startup/can get a combo off of it but doesn't seem to really work out.

1:21:22
How do you cover slide off there?? Very lost in this position cause it feels like you have to hard read them either sliding off or not.

 

[Dr Peepee]

defensive dair is much better

shine landing, bair landing, sometimes you can bair out right or shine oos it...or jump into it/hold down and shine

you can SH above some attacks then hit them, or use ground moves such as dtilt to hit them, or move between there ground and top platform quickly

grab, fake grab and do an aerial, sh drift in for an aerial, fake this and do a dash back into bair of some kind, crossup aerial, etc

bair

 

[R3_]

hi, I went to my first tournament yesterday, going 1-2 in amateurs and im very proud of myself . I learned a lot about me and the bird, mostly that I have pretty decent tech skill but sorta struggle to put that into combos properly. Also I need to watch my opponent instead of myself the whole time but I mostly learned what sort of skill range im at in comparison to everyone else, keeping it close on stock count but not taking a whole lot of games

no vods unfortunately but I just thought it would be nice to share

one question I do have is about pillar comboing peach, the guy that beat me in losers said that I missed a lot of opportunities where I couldve pillared him a bit more, since I would always just finish it off with uair after the shine. I tested it out and shine > dair > shine doesnt seem to true combo even at 0%, up tilt didnt seem to work either I dont think. So yeah main question is whats the best thing to do after shine at low % vs peach (with and without platforms)?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Good job man, hope to see you continue to improve =)


Yeah sometimes with platforms you can get a Utilt/shine, but what I like to do is FH Bair after Dair to get damage and push her toward the edge. You can also dash toward center and let her DJ so she can't use that anymore then FH Bair to space out whatever she would do on reaction.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

defensive dair is much better

shine landing, bair landing, sometimes you can bair out right or shine oos it...or jump into it/hold down and shine

you can SH above some attacks then hit them, or use ground moves such as dtilt to hit them, or move between there ground and top platform quickly

grab, fake grab and do an aerial, sh drift in for an aerial, fake this and do a dash back into bair of some kind, crossup aerial, etc

bair

What kind of shield pressure should you be doing on falcon's shield? How does it differ when you're in front vs behind? When I'm behind other characters shields I'm accustomed to doing laser shine pressure as my starting point in the mixup beacuse it covers rolls/wd away but I don't like it as much vs falcon because of stomp oos. You've said recently that there's no need to go ham on falcon's shield because his oos options are slow, so I guess I'm having trouble balancing slower shield pressure with purposeful shield pressure?
I've found shine wd back to be interesting because it outspaces all of their aerial oos options (except maybe fade forward sh nair). Are there shield pressures against falcon that beat his instant stomp and nair oos but also can't get shield grabbed? Or am I asking too much.

Also I shine grab as the startig point in the mixup for shield pressure for most matchups and because falcon's roll so much I do it less vs them. So vs falcon's what is the goal when shield pressuring if not shine grab?

Also for general gameplan vs falcon is it similar to other matchups where you want to land a laser as close as possible to them or catch their jump with an aerial? Defensively I'm more familiar with the matchup because bair/u tilt/ high laser are quite effective stand alone tools against his nair with simple dash and timing mixups.

Also sh bair beats all parts of their leg of sh nair right? How does it interact with the tip/foot?

 

[Dr Peepee]

don't need to do a bunch of shines always since you can space around grab and he jumps oos a lot. spaced nair/bair/dair can be fine. when behind you really don't need to shine all that much since he can't even grab. if you do mid nair you can early nair his stomp oos for example.

let them roll. do an aerial then wait/set up for pressure with a dash or something then chase down the roll with aerial/laser.

that still works.

bair still beats their leg tip iirc but it can be different if he's fading back or in place. may be more precise to do in place, and retreating it's more of a guess obv.

 

[Bones0]

It's been a while since I checked this thread, but just had to stop by to congratulate PP on a successful return, even if it's just in the form of streaming/content for now. I'm actually so hype. Lol

One quick question about your analysis vods so far: Is your process for analyzing and improving the same for your own personal use as it has been on stream, or do you take a different approach when strictly "learning" to improve vs. "teaching" to inform others?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Good to see you again Bones. I assume you are active in discord? I would to join that at some point. And thanks man.

There are some similarities, but I don't think about it the same way to myself, or use more variables and pause the video in less places as I can take in more in real time, etc. One big difference is I consider much more psychological things in my personal analysis, but I think that would muddy the stream content.

 

[R3_]

Good job man, hope to see you continue to improve =)


Yeah sometimes with platforms you can get a Utilt/shine, but what I like to do is FH Bair after Dair to get damage and push her toward the edge. You can also dash toward center and let her DJ so she can't use that anymore then FH Bair to space out whatever she would do on reaction.

thanks, I hope to do well too . I have another question about peach, how should I DI her chaingrabs on fd? I would assume that I should DI out at low % and in at high %?

 

[Bones0]

Good to see you again Bones. I assume you are active in discord? I would to join that at some point. And thanks man.

There are some similarities, but I don't think about it the same way to myself, or use more variables and pause the video in less places as I can take in more in real time, etc. One big difference is I consider much more psychological things in my personal analysis, but I think that would muddy the stream content.

Which discord channel are you referring to? I am active on discord in general, but not so much for Melee discussion. I've tried to get into the general Falco discord, but I don't feel like there are many fruitful discussions because of overly general FAQs being asked constantly. I only really get to discuss Melee in Ginger's and KJH's Twitch chat.

Those differences make sense. I have been majorly slacking in the analysis department because it's so easy to throw on a top player's analysis and still learn, but I think not doing it myself leads to me ignoring weaknesses specific to me. I also have netplay but am learning how bad the diminishing returns can be when you aren't supplementing your practice with fresh ideas from analysis.

By psychological, do you mean you consider your own psychology and how you need to view a situation/matchup differently, or are you analyzing the psychology of individual opponents to break them down so you're more effective with macro gameplay? The latter is probably what you're more known for and something I should probably prioritize myself, but it's hard to justify when I still feel so bad at even basic mixups or strategy and I'm naturally very weak at understanding opponents psychologically. I can only really target certain flowcharts they're using and beat them that way, but of course better players have more complex flowcharts or at least ones that you don't necessarily want to play into to try to outplay them.

thanks, I hope to do well too . I have another question about peach, how should I DI her chaingrabs on fd? I would assume that I should DI out at low % and in at high %?

At very low %s, you can actually full DI behind her and SDI up on the first hit of dsmash. You will pop out without getting knocked down and be able to shine her before she's actionable. It's not even too difficult once you learn the timing; just practice it in 20xx for 20 minutes.

Once she's got the actual CG going there isn't much you can do unfortunately. It's a very easy CG so just mix up as best you can. I hold survival DI in case she fthrows and switch to full DI in either direction on reaction to uthrow so she is forced to uthrow dash nair instead of getting the easy usmash KO.

 

[AnonymousID]

Yo I just found out you can watch youtube videos through VLC for anyone that didn't know. (Media -> open network stream) It gives you a lot more control over playback.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

don't need to do a bunch of shines always since you can space around grab and he jumps oos a lot. spaced nair/bair/dair can be fine. when behind you really don't need to shine all that much since he can't even grab. if you do mid nair you can early nair his stomp oos for example.

let them roll. do an aerial then wait/set up for pressure with a dash or something then chase down the roll with aerial/laser.

that still works.

bair still beats their leg tip iirc but it can be different if he's fading back or in place. may be more precise to do in place, and retreating it's more of a guess obv.

When you say space around his grab are you saying that spaced shield pressure like backflip in late bair or fade back dair or backflip late spaced nair (after being in their shield) is better than shining? Like it doesn’t matter if you’re doing this spaced pressure to start a shield pressure sequence or to end it as long as it’s spaced? And then you’re mixing that up occasionally with normal shield pressure mixups when you’re “in” their shield?

So to chase rolls why is dashing useful? Why not just always wait next to their shield/behind them so that you have equal distance between their two rolls? Is this so that they can’t just stomp you oos?

Is there ever a reason to not do a high laser vs falcon?

At every moment in the match, or every beat in the match at least, you should have an idea of exactly what your opponent is going to do right? And if not should you always guess exactly what they're going to do? As in visualizing exactly what they're going to do, and using all of your brain resource on that. Can you practice this visualization by shadowboxing to make it take less brainpower in matches? Or should you sometimes settle for something like "they're going to approach soon." This question came from me shadowboxing today. Also been trying to find more ways that I can build that trust with myself and stop self 1 from taking over.

When will I know when I should stop prioritizing punish game? Want to keep my improvemet process as efficient as possible.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Which discord channel are you referring to? I am active on discord in general, but not so much for Melee discussion. I've tried to get into the general Falco discord, but I don't feel like there are many fruitful discussions because of overly general FAQs being asked constantly. I only really get to discuss Melee in Ginger's and KJH's Twitch chat.

Those differences make sense. I have been majorly slacking in the analysis department because it's so easy to throw on a top player's analysis and still learn, but I think not doing it myself leads to me ignoring weaknesses specific to me. I also have netplay but am learning how bad the diminishing returns can be when you aren't supplementing your practice with fresh ideas from analysis.

By psychological, do you mean you consider your own psychology and how you need to view a situation/matchup differently, or are you analyzing the psychology of individual opponents to break them down so you're more effective with macro gameplay? The latter is probably what you're more known for and something I should probably prioritize myself, but it's hard to justify when I still feel so bad at even basic mixups or strategy and I'm naturally very weak at understanding opponents psychologically. I can only really target certain flowcharts they're using and beat them that way, but of course better players have more complex flowcharts or at least ones that you don't necessarily want to play into to try to outplay them.




At very low %s, you can actually full DI behind her and SDI up on the first hit of dsmash. You will pop out without getting knocked down and be able to shine her before she's actionable. It's not even too difficult once you learn the timing; just practice it in 20xx for 20 minutes.

Once she's got the actual CG going there isn't much you can do unfortunately. It's a very easy CG so just mix up as best you can. I hold survival DI in case she fthrows and switch to full DI in either direction on reaction to uthrow so she is forced to uthrow dash nair instead of getting the easy usmash KO.

Ah okay I thought maybe you ginger and others were in the Falco discord. Hmm...discussion seems hard to come by these days I suppose.

I meant how their psychology may be influencing individual and general decision making. And yeah it's not that important until you get close or fully into top player status. The basic stuff is more rewarding earlier, and is the foundation for psychological work anyway.

When you say space around his grab are you saying that spaced shield pressure like backflip in late bair or fade back dair or backflip late spaced nair (after being in their shield) is better than shining? Like it doesn’t matter if you’re doing this spaced pressure to start a shield pressure sequence or to end it as long as it’s spaced? And then you’re mixing that up occasionally with normal shield pressure mixups when you’re “in” their shield?

So to chase rolls why is dashing useful? Why not just always wait next to their shield/behind them so that you have equal distance between their two rolls? Is this so that they can’t just stomp you oos?

Is there ever a reason to not do a high laser vs falcon?

At every moment in the match, or every beat in the match at least, you should have an idea of exactly what your opponent is going to do right? And if not should you always guess exactly what they're going to do? As in visualizing exactly what they're going to do, and using all of your brain resource on that. Can you practice this visualization by shadowboxing to make it take less brainpower in matches? Or should you sometimes settle for something like "they're going to approach soon." This question came from me shadowboxing today. Also been trying to find more ways that I can build that trust with myself and stop self 1 from taking over.

When will I know when I should stop prioritizing punish game? Want to keep my improvemet process as efficient as possible.

More or less, yeah. The spacing can change during pressure too, you can watch Mango for that.

Dash gets you moving toward them and Falco needs the distance help. Waiting can be okay sometimes, but sometimes moving forces their action.

If he's regular shielding so he's going to take the laser anyway, or he's trying to PS or something.

Sometimes it can be exact, sometimes general such as offense or defense, or sometimes just that they will act a specific moment. You usually want to categorize their timings and move to more specific as fast as you can.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Ah okay I thought maybe you ginger and others were in the Falco discord. Hmm...discussion seems hard to come by these days I suppose.

I meant how their psychology may be influencing individual and general decision making. And yeah it's not that important until you get close or fully into top player status. The basic stuff is more rewarding earlier, and is the foundation for psychological work anyway.


More or less, yeah. The spacing can change during pressure too, you can watch Mango for that.

Dash gets you moving toward them and Falco needs the distance help. Waiting can be okay sometimes, but sometimes moving forces their action.

If he's regular shielding so he's going to take the laser anyway, or he's trying to PS or something.

Sometimes it can be exact, sometimes general such as offense or defense, or sometimes just that they will act a specific moment. You usually want to categorize their timings and move to more specific as fast as you can.

So just like regular neutral you want to mixup dashing through their shield and dashing away from their shield? Should I be less inclined to dash towards their grab oos spacing?

Why should you specifically focus on categorizing their timings? How I start going about doing that? Do you measure timings in "beats"? Like a rhythm? So like "he's going to approach in 1 beat and a half"

Also correct me if I'm mistaken but I don't think I've seen you do basic dashes on stream during your tool deepening? Why is that?

Edit after testing dash stuff against falcon's shield: I've found that after crossing up falcon's shield dashing away from them is super good because you get to observe what they do and if they roll the opposite direction the you get to follow up with laser pressure. I've found the best mixup to be instant bair which beats all of their instant aerials oos. But then their mixup is to just wait that bair out, but then I'm not sure what a solid option would be for the next layer of the basic mixup.

But when you're not crossing up his shield in the first place, is shining a necessary part of the mixup in order to not get grabbed? Is that why spacing moves on his shield is better? Because you avoid that whole mixup situation?