PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

Then you'd want to do a play that helps you beat their delay in some form, but also helps you if they don't. Backing up, going all in are two possibilities of course. As Falco you generally don't want to shield though, so setting up other ways to beat the dash attack would be great in the first place, and would help keep you from getting stuck.

 

[Yort]

Then you'd want to do a play that helps you beat their delay in some form, but also helps you if they don't. Backing up, going all in are two possibilities of course. As Falco you generally don't want to shield though, so setting up other ways to beat the dash attack would be great in the first place, and would help keep you from getting stuck.

why do you generally not want to shield as falco? I was wondering this the other day watching mang0 as he shields during aggressive plays unlike you as I almost never see you shield with falco unless you have to.

Do you think you should shield more versus marth than other characters on average? Mainly versus swingy marths, I find that simply avoiding their swings often gets me cornered and sometimes I need to shield into their moves and punish oos. On this, I find it very difficult to push forward versus swingy marths who constantly take laser > wd fsmash and or take laser > ftilt or take lasers in shield > nair oos at a mid range. The main problem is that whiff punishing is difficult as shielding comes out early and I find playing the delayed aerial / run up grab mix up dangerous in the case that they do jab / uptilt out of lag.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Dr Peepee Hi

I'm in france now studying abroad so my melee is limited to playing on my new mac which runs it rather poorly, so I can't really practice execution like I've been wanting to. I've now turned to diving super in depth to situations and trying to really get to know them. I've been studying falco vs sheik when falco lands a laser on sheik (not shielding) and falco can't reach with f tilt but is still in threat range. I feel like I understand all of the individual interactions really well and can visualize the way options interact well. But I'm not sure how to go about putting it all together, so I feel really stuck at this point. Should I be taking two similar options that falco has and seeing how those work together? Like approaching laser vs approaching sh tomahawk shine. Or maybe two opposite options? Like approaching immediate dair vs doing another laser.

 

[Dr Peepee]

why do you generally not want to shield as falco? I was wondering this the other day watching mang0 as he shields during aggressive plays unlike you as I almost never see you shield with falco unless you have to.

Do you think you should shield more versus marth than other characters on average? Mainly versus swingy marths, I find that simply avoiding their swings often gets me cornered and sometimes I need to shield into their moves and punish oos. On this, I find it very difficult to push forward versus swingy marths who constantly take laser > wd fsmash and or take laser > ftilt or take lasers in shield > nair oos at a mid range. The main problem is that whiff punishing is difficult as shielding comes out early and I find playing the delayed aerial / run up grab mix up dangerous in the case that they do jab / uptilt out of lag.

You can get away with Mango's type of shield game vs spacies, and very occasionally vs other characters, but not so much that it's worth it to me. He often runs forward into shield, which causes an aerial that would have hit later to hit earlier, and that allows for some OOS punishes you wouldn't normally get. The only issue for doing this with Falco is that he's slow so he can't shift the space usefully much, especially when the opponent believes this is a possible option. Which leads to the second problem: shield is abusable when you're Falco. Falco is slow, needs laser to have mobility advantage which is also slow, and doesn't have much range to usefully get out of bad positions if people are spaced decently. You can FH or WD away sometimes, but being cornered as Falco is also bad, and being above some of the better characters in the game isn't great.

Whiff punishing vs that stuff is mainly getting closer with laser, which puts them in a really bad position. They have to guess if you come in or not, and if they whiff they get bodied. If they shield then you just get to abuse Marth in his shield. You can shield when cornered as you said, but shielding vs Marth generally means he can just whack whatever you do OOS and it's strong for him. I suggest fighting just outside of or around take laser jab range, as that range puts a lot of pressure on Marth to whiff while being pretty safe.

Dr Peepee Hi

I'm in france now studying abroad so my melee is limited to playing on my new mac which runs it rather poorly, so I can't really practice execution like I've been wanting to. I've now turned to diving super in depth to situations and trying to really get to know them. I've been studying falco vs sheik when falco lands a laser on sheik (not shielding) and falco can't reach with f tilt but is still in threat range. I feel like I understand all of the individual interactions really well and can visualize the way options interact well. But I'm not sure how to go about putting it all together, so I feel really stuck at this point. Should I be taking two similar options that falco has and seeing how those work together? Like approaching laser vs approaching sh tomahawk shine. Or maybe two opposite options? Like approaching immediate dair vs doing another laser.

That's all fine. You just need to start making theories. How would people use this information in real matches? How would other Falcos or Sheiks use it? What about how you think you should use them to beat the majority of Sheik's options and mixups? How can you set up those winning mixups? How can you fake? And so on. Looking at how people play matches can help inform your decision making process, but going abstractly is fine if you're willing to be flexible.

 

[DJRome]

Yo, do falcos ever purposefully asdi attacks down to edge cancel (not platform) shine as a defense tactic?

 

[jedimeister007]

so i've been playing more relaxed which has helped me not get tilted as easily as before and is really helping me see some flaws in my game

one thing i'm starting to realize i have trouble punishing overall is fox's fh

https://youtu.be/ICeKbF_Vk-U?t=125
lets say i was playing and knew fox was going to running fh out of the corner like this. what could I do to punish or challenge safely? i know utilt is supposed to be good for hitting fox landing, but using it here seems inconsistent and risky

https://youtu.be/DxWQjBFvngo?t=46
mango pressures the landing with laser which seems good, but can he challenge the fh or is it just super risk free for fox?

https://youtu.be/DU0MNs2D7sQ?t=59
again, i could see mango using utilt to stuff the fh, but it still seems very committal

i guess i'm just having a hard time seeing what falco can do to strongly discourage fox from abusing fullhopping a ton. a lot of the time i can only beat it if it's off a super hard read that's risky but doesn't net a big reward and almost feels like a constant losing battle

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

You can get away with Mango's type of shield game vs spacies, and very occasionally vs other characters, but not so much that it's worth it to me. He often runs forward into shield, which causes an aerial that would have hit later to hit earlier, and that allows for some OOS punishes you wouldn't normally get. The only issue for doing this with Falco is that he's slow so he can't shift the space usefully much, especially when the opponent believes this is a possible option. Which leads to the second problem: shield is abusable when you're Falco. Falco is slow, needs laser to have mobility advantage which is also slow, and doesn't have much range to usefully get out of bad positions if people are spaced decently. You can FH or WD away sometimes, but being cornered as Falco is also bad, and being above some of the better characters in the game isn't great.

Whiff punishing vs that stuff is mainly getting closer with laser, which puts them in a really bad position. They have to guess if you come in or not, and if they whiff they get bodied. If they shield then you just get to abuse Marth in his shield. You can shield when cornered as you said, but shielding vs Marth generally means he can just whack whatever you do OOS and it's strong for him. I suggest fighting just outside of or around take laser jab range, as that range puts a lot of pressure on Marth to whiff while being pretty safe.


That's all fine. You just need to start making theories. How would people use this information in real matches? How would other Falcos or Sheiks use it? What about how you think you should use them to beat the majority of Sheik's options and mixups? How can you set up those winning mixups? How can you fake? And so on. Looking at how people play matches can help inform your decision making process, but going abstractly is fine if you're willing to be flexible.

What does dash forward dash back laser do/intended to do? How does that option contrast with waiting the same amount of time it would take to do those dashes (like for observation) and the lasering?

You've said before that falco normally needs to be doing something because he's slow and he needs access to laser to mitigate his speed disadvantage. So what does simply waiting with falco accomplish?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yo, do falcos ever purposefully asdi attacks down to edge cancel (not platform) shine as a defense tactic?

I've never seen it done but I'd imagine it would be useful. Hi DJ

so i've been playing more relaxed which has helped me not get tilted as easily as before and is really helping me see some flaws in my game

one thing i'm starting to realize i have trouble punishing overall is fox's fh

https://youtu.be/ICeKbF_Vk-U?t=125
lets say i was playing and knew fox was going to running fh out of the corner like this. what could I do to punish or challenge safely? i know utilt is supposed to be good for hitting fox landing, but using it here seems inconsistent and risky

https://youtu.be/DxWQjBFvngo?t=46
mango pressures the landing with laser which seems good, but can he challenge the fh or is it just super risk free for fox?

https://youtu.be/DU0MNs2D7sQ?t=59
again, i could see mango using utilt to stuff the fh, but it still seems very committal

i guess i'm just having a hard time seeing what falco can do to strongly discourage fox from abusing fullhopping a ton. a lot of the time i can only beat it if it's off a super hard read that's risky but doesn't net a big reward and almost feels like a constant losing battle

Dash in pivot Bair, running FH Nair/Dair, pivot but laser Fox landing as he drifts back, and so on.

Not if he shields first like that. Also he's a bit far away to get direct punishes, but he could have Dair'd or otherwise pressured Leffen's landing if he kept moving in and didn't shield. He expected an approach here.

It is a bit. If you turn around upon waking up here then you could Utilt if you see a FH, or a retreating Bair/laser if they don't. Bair can kind of cover both, so you can dash away to observe if you want. Utilt is still fine, especially if you don't normally do it so they wouldn't be expecting it. You don't need to often guess either, or if you do you'll be guessing when they guess and that's not the worst.

Fox FH is great and great against Falco. FH/DJ over it and Dair'ing or otherwise closing space are good, and Utilt/Bair if Fox comes in. But a lot depends because of his drift and DJ and platforms.

What does dash forward dash back laser do/intended to do? How does that option contrast with waiting the same amount of time it would take to do those dashes (like for observation) and the lasering?

You've said before that falco normally needs to be doing something because he's slow and he needs access to laser to mitigate his speed disadvantage. So what does simply waiting with falco accomplish?

There is no fake if you stand still, unless you normally do certain things out of standing still. Also helps you observe. Dash forward then back laser in place puts a threat of approach of some kind out there and then a retreat for the opponent to react to, which you hope to laser. It connects the dash back with the laser, which could be useful later if they expect it again.

Waiting normally hopes they will swing into you in hopes that you will start up a laser and you can punish, or it's some other type of timing mixup.

 

[DJRome]

I saw westballz do it here but kinda slow but it looks good even (or especially?) if you don't have the time to get up.

https://youtu.be/VEdftQjVl6I?t=16

<3

 

[AnonymousID]

If I know my opponent is going to stay in shield when I jump at them, is there any point in doing a late aerial instead of a laser other than extra shield damage? For me lasering into shield pressure is so much easier and if my opponent happens to move or something I'm much less thrown off.

 

[Dr Peepee]

They are also stuck in shield longer with you having more advantage iirc. This can lead to you doing more mixups then, including things like not shining and then dashing back/SH'ing again/grabbing/delayed shine/etc. Damaging their shield more can be better too if they do manage to reset the situation, as they can't shield so easily without worry of shield stabs then. But there's nothing wrong with preferring the laser approach.

 

[Wiggy Jiggy Jed]

How should Falco be playing the ICs matchup? I know top platform is good, Down Throw is decent, Shine Up-B works against Nana on Yoshi's, and laser f-tilt is good against SoPo. I don't know the matchup well enough to have an actual gameplan, however. I also don't know what exactly to look for once I separate / combo Nana so I can actually kill her.

I remember Wobbles said before that you actually don't wanna camp ICs because they can shark pretty well with Up Air and they're weakest in front and above them (i.e. perfect for SH approaches), so I wanted to know what you thought about this and how it might go against the "just camp top plat" strategy

Stages?

And on a side note, would you still recommend your older matchup guides, or are they just too outdated?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Wobbles is right. Camping them is difficult and could lead to you getting killed if they take your DJ. He's also right about their weak spot. Getting close enough to where they can't WD, but far enough to avoid smashes is where you can begin using Nair/Dair/Bair/laser to threaten them. If they back up or roll away, you just repeat, and make sure they don't roll behind you safely(easier when you Bair wall, but Bair struggles a bit more since you have to wait longer to get it out. tradeoffs). SH approaching is still fine if you go deep, but practice the timing for hitting both shields, and the hard and light shield thing, if you do. Separate them with shine/Dthrow/Fthrow/whatever, then don't worry about regular combos so much as keeping them launched. They have lower falling speed so you can kill Nana with shine shine or shine up-B, even at lower percents on BF/FoD and sometimes PS depending on circumstances. Carrying her with Naira and then spiking is good to kill her quickly, but sometimes you just have to Bair/shine her up again to keep her away from popo to hit him again before continuing with her.

YS and PS are good because you can kill and PS desyncs them sometimes during transformations or even while some are present. DL you can get away easier but they're harder to kill. FD and FoD are kind of up to you but ICs seem to like FD more these days I think. BF is kind of an in between stage.

I wouldn't recommend the older guide anymore iirc. I will make a new one one day.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Wobbles is right. Camping them is difficult and could lead to you getting killed if they take your DJ. He's also right about their weak spot. Getting close enough to where they can't WD, but far enough to avoid smashes is where you can begin using Nair/Dair/Bair/laser to threaten them. If they back up or roll away, you just repeat, and make sure they don't roll behind you safely(easier when you Bair wall, but Bair struggles a bit more since you have to wait longer to get it out. tradeoffs). SH approaching is still fine if you go deep, but practice the timing for hitting both shields, and the hard and light shield thing, if you do. Separate them with shine/Dthrow/Fthrow/whatever, then don't worry about regular combos so much as keeping them launched. They have lower falling speed so you can kill Nana with shine shine or shine up-B, even at lower percents on BF/FoD and sometimes PS depending on circumstances. Carrying her with Naira and then spiking is good to kill her quickly, but sometimes you just have to Bair/shine her up again to keep her away from popo to hit him again before continuing with her.

YS and PS are good because you can kill and PS desyncs them sometimes during transformations or even while some are present. DL you can get away easier but they're harder to kill. FD and FoD are kind of up to you but ICs seem to like FD more these days I think. BF is kind of an in between stage.

I wouldn't recommend the older guide anymore iirc. I will make a new one one day.

What options does falco have to push stage without commuting fully? I.e. punish people for being non committal and moving back a lot?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dash forward laser in place, back up full laser forward, moving forward then spacing Bair/Dair/Nair/perhaps Ftilt against them.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Dash forward laser in place, back up full laser forward, moving forward then spacing Bair/Dair/Nair/perhaps Ftilt against them.

Is there a decision point in the dash where you choose to either laser or pivot bair or dash back etc?

Do you think laser jabbing is worth it against The floaties and marth when they’re at high percent? I’ve seen top players do it but now I’m starting to think that it’s not good since jab is always shield grabbable and it’s safer to just got for shine nair fade away pressure or shine grab and then set up for an edge guard from there. Basically I feel like laser jab is high risk medium reward but converting that laser into pressure instead is low risk medium/low reward.

 

[Yort]

Dash forward laser in place, back up full laser forward, moving forward then spacing Bair/Dair/Nair/perhaps Ftilt against them.

what should I be doing after marth lands a jab on me? For example if I do approaching laser > nair and he jabs me before the nair comes out, sometimes the marths will do approaching nair and hit my dash back but also sometimes they do run up grab after the jab. Should I be looking out for them attempting to push the frame advantage and maybe just immediately ftilt / aerial to stuff them?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Is there a decision point in the dash where you choose to either laser or pivot bair or dash back etc?

Do you think laser jabbing is worth it against The floaties and marth when they’re at high percent? I’ve seen top players do it but now I’m starting to think that it’s not good since jab is always shield grabbable and it’s safer to just got for shine nair fade away pressure or shine grab and then set up for an edge guard from there. Basically I feel like laser jab is high risk medium reward but converting that laser into pressure instead is low risk medium/low reward.

Yes, but it's relative to the opponent among other things. If you're farther away for example, then you can wait longer in your dash to act.

Depends on jab spacing, but yeah if the opponent is going to hold down or shield grab a lot then I wouldn't bother. It's mainly used when they don't expect it or will act so the jab can punish them.

what should I be doing after marth lands a jab on me? For example if I do approaching laser > nair and he jabs me before the nair comes out, sometimes the marths will do approaching nair and hit my dash back but also sometimes they do run up grab after the jab. Should I be looking out for them attempting to push the frame advantage and maybe just immediately ftilt / aerial to stuff them?

I'm assuming this jab is tippered. I haven't tested this a lot, but in my experience you can double dash back, or dash WD or dash retreating laser away for more space if you need to, and mix that with just hitting them quickly as you say. Out of regular dash back, it seems fairly easy to confirm what they will do, since they have to run a bit before grabbing and the Nair has to start early. So it just becomes about setting up to beat those things then.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Yes, but it's relative to the opponent among other things. If you're farther away for example, then you can wait longer in your dash to act.

Depends on jab spacing, but yeah if the opponent is going to hold down or shield grab a lot then I wouldn't bother. It's mainly used when they don't expect it or will act so the jab can punish them.


I'm assuming this jab is tippered. I haven't tested this a lot, but in my experience you can double dash back, or dash WD or dash retreating laser away for more space if you need to, and mix that with just hitting them quickly as you say. Out of regular dash back, it seems fairly easy to confirm what they will do, since they have to run a bit before grabbing and the Nair has to start early. So it just becomes about setting up to beat those things then.

How does falco deal with sheik on top plat of yoshi's story? Seems like it's super hard for him to approach but you can't really set up for an up tilt below her either because she can just dash a bit and then outspace you with her big bair. So then i feel like I have to play under the side platforms but that doesn't seem desirable either.

Also how do you feel about stages vs sheik? FD and PS are considered winning for falco and I would agree, I'm more curious about the tri plats.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You could probably Bair, or intercept with SH aerial or FH aerial if she goes that far. Or back up and laser. Lasering on the side platform, and FH/DJ'ing and rising or falling Bair can be good too.

FoD is probably good as well since it can mess up her SH more than it messes up your lasers. BF is the worst or second worst behind DL depending on things. YS is probably good for you.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

You could probably Bair, or intercept with SH aerial or FH aerial if she goes that far. Or back up and laser. Lasering on the side platform, and FH/DJ'ing and rising or falling Bair can be good too.

FoD is probably good as well since it can mess up her SH more than it messes up your lasers. BF is the worst or second worst behind DL depending on things. YS is probably good for you.

https://vods.co/v/qhgkgr

At 0:40 Levingy lasers Kalamazhu's bair, but then his grab gets jabbed anyway because peach got turned around by the laser and he was close enough to the ground. What could Levingy have done here? Was this a specific case for some reason or can peach normally jab after getting lasered to beat grab? What are peach's mixups to what Levingy could have done better here?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Could have Fsmashed, Dair'd, Bair'd, Ftilted maybe, jabbed if Peach didn't hold down, lasered again. Peach can jab pretty fast and it's big, so you have to be ready for mixups on that vs shield vs dash attack vs WD back I guess, which is many things.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Could have Fsmashed, Dair'd, Bair'd, Ftilted maybe, jabbed if Peach didn't hold down, lasered again. Peach can jab pretty fast and it's big, so you have to be ready for mixups on that vs shield vs dash attack vs WD back I guess, which is many things.

So even though that's falco's best "neutral" position in the matchup there's still all those mixups available to peach? My gut says it's an advantageous position for falco but thinking about it now it feels fine for peach cause big/fast things like d smash, jab, DA, and the other options you said. So what makes this position so good for falco?

What's the difference between accepting the possibility of losing and admitting defeat?

What's the difference between dash forward dash back and dash forward wd back?

I know that falco should only stick to 1 or 2 dashes at a time, but if you are cramped for space (close to the opponent are cornered, I'm thinking like right ouside of marth or falcon's sh nair spacing) and want to pose a threat to the opponent to see how they react do you think it's warranted to do a few small dash dances in place before committing? Although now I'm second guessing myself because falco would already at a range where you don't need a dash forward to threaten them.

Between matches, games, or even stocks do you have a way that you mentally check yourself to see if you're in the right state of mind?

 

[Dr Peepee]

That is not his best position. His best position is right on top of Peach where he could shine before her jab comes out. The good position is one in which you can act before any of their big defensive options. That said, it's still fairly good since she is usually going to shield or jab because most else would be too unsafe for her. You can play the position as her if you'd like to see it.

I would imagine part of it is actually the losing lol. I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

One is faster and changeable in more places. Dash in WD back is slower/with more lag but it goes farther and gives access to forward facing attacks as you back up.

It's a bit of a judgment call, but in situations like that people tend to just sit there and DD without purpose besides hoping the opponent falls into them many times. So I just say keep it simple because you can understand what's going on better that way.

Take a deep breath, make sure I am relaxed but intently focused, and think of my goals and stay in the game. So long as I feel good and think as I believe I should be, there is no need for concern. The big analysis in these types of things comes after the event, when you have time to retrain yourself.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

That is not his best position. His best position is right on top of Peach where he could shine before her jab comes out. The good position is one in which you can act before any of their big defensive options. That said, it's still fairly good since she is usually going to shield or jab because most else would be too unsafe for her. You can play the position as her if you'd like to see it.

I would imagine part of it is actually the losing lol. I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

One is faster and changeable in more places. Dash in WD back is slower/with more lag but it goes farther and gives access to forward facing attacks as you back up.

It's a bit of a judgment call, but in situations like that people tend to just sit there and DD without purpose besides hoping the opponent falls into them many times. So I just say keep it simple because you can understand what's going on better that way.

Take a deep breath, make sure I am relaxed but intently focused, and think of my goals and stay in the game. So long as I feel good and think as I believe I should be, there is no need for concern. The big analysis in these types of things comes after the event, when you have time to retrain yourself.

I would imagine part of it is actually the losing lol. I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

A while ago you said that once you accept losing the fear of it no longer controls you, so now I’m trying to determine the differences between that and admitting defeat and giving up before the match is over.

 

[Yort]

I would imagine part of it is actually the losing lol. I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

A while ago you said that once you accept losing the fear of it no longer controls you, so now I’m trying to determine the differences between that and admitting defeat and giving up before the match is over.

Oh wow that's neat because recently I've been trying to get over my anxiety before matches by being more accepting and stoic with losses when they happen. I figured that I wouldn't get so incredibly anxious if I didn't get very upset after losing in the first place. To me, those things sound different in the sense that accepting losses happens AFTER the loss actually happens while giving up and admitting defeat happens during the match, so a difference in timing kinda lol.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Oh wow that's neat because recently I've been trying to get over my anxiety before matches by being more accepting and stoic with losses when they happen. I figured that I wouldn't get so incredibly anxious if I didn't get very upset after losing in the first place. To me, those things sound different in the sense that accepting losses happens AFTER the loss actually happens while giving up and admitting defeat happens during the match, so a difference in timing kinda lol.

I see what you're getting at, but if you only accept losing after the match is over, doesn't that suggest that the possibility of losing is a relevant factor during the match that can inhibit your ability to think clearly?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I would imagine part of it is actually the losing lol. I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

A while ago you said that once you accept losing the fear of it no longer controls you, so now I’m trying to determine the differences between that and admitting defeat and giving up before the match is over.

Oh, well I'm still not 100% sure what you're asking about, but admitting defeat should come only when you have been thoroughly outclassed the whole set. Even then, it just means you should shift your focus to trying to learn instead of trying to win. Accepting loss comes before, during, and after losing really. Before because you think about results, during if you freak out about the thing you thought about, and after because you think about what you thought about plus the pain of losing judgments. Generally, if you accept loss then during the losing you can make more of it. You can fight longer because losing doesn't scare you, and you can also know when you've been beaten and switch focus as I said. Maybe that helps clear things up.

 

[Wiggy Jiggy Jed]

What are your thoughts on switching mains?

I've been playing for about 4 years and I am ranked 12th in my state. I main Falco. Throughout this last year I've had moments where I think another character would suit me more, and I switch for a bit (usually to Marth or Fox), then ultimately go back to Falco.

If I did switch, I think Fox would be the best fit for me. I enjoy his edgegaurding more than Falco's, I love more flow chart-y punish games, and since I think one of my strengths as a player is being able to find grabs, I enjoy Fox's bigger reward off of grab. I think I always come back to Falco because I ultimately have a bit more fun with him. I love how he controls the flow of the game, and I really like his floatier matchups (although I don't like Falco vs Fox as much anymore, yet I do like the Fox ditto). I also am much better with Falco atm, so maybe that plays into me switching back a lot (I've already invested this much time and character-specific tech into him). But if 5 years later I'd be better as a Fox main, then I prob should switch.

So I suppose that my heart says Falco, but my brain says Fox (although I do have logical reasons for liking Falco). I basically wanna be sure I'm picking the character that fits me best. Maybe it's Falco, maybe it's not, but I think having these conflicting thoughts is slowing my growth, so I'd like to have an idea on how to move forward.

--EDIT---

One thing I think about a lot when this stuff crosses my mind is Leffen. He was a Falco main for a while, and even though he got pretty good (beating SFAT), he still thought it was best to switch to Fox because of logical reasons (i.e. Fox fit Leffen better than Falco did), and now he's one of the best players in the world. I know I'm not Leffen, so again maybe Falco IS the fit for me, but this is worth noting because I hear people say to just stick it out with their original main, since the problem may be you as a player, not the character.

 

[Morsecode762]

Hey, I was wondering how you go about thinking about the game and how you parse info? I have a problem where I have trouble switching between thinking about player habits, MU knowledge, ect. and looking at what's going on currently in game and applying that knowledge.

 

[Dr Peepee]

What are your thoughts on switching mains?

I've been playing for about 4 years and I am ranked 12th in my state. I main Falco. Throughout this last year I've had moments where I think another character would suit me more, and I switch for a bit (usually to Marth or Fox), then ultimately go back to Falco.

If I did switch, I think Fox would be the best fit for me. I enjoy his edgegaurding more than Falco's, I love more flow chart-y punish games, and since I think one of my strengths as a player is being able to find grabs, I enjoy Fox's bigger reward off of grab. I think I always come back to Falco because I ultimately have a bit more fun with him. I love how he controls the flow of the game, and I really like his floatier matchups (although I don't like Falco vs Fox as much anymore, yet I do like the Fox ditto). I also am much better with Falco atm, so maybe that plays into me switching back a lot (I've already invested this much time and character-specific tech into him). But if 5 years later I'd be better as a Fox main, then I prob should switch.

So I suppose that my heart says Falco, but my brain says Fox (although I do have logical reasons for liking Falco). I basically wanna be sure I'm picking the character that fits me best. Maybe it's Falco, maybe it's not, but I think having these conflicting thoughts is slowing my growth, so I'd like to have an idea on how to move forward.

--EDIT---

One thing I think about a lot when this stuff crosses my mind is Leffen. He was a Falco main for a while, and even though he got pretty good (beating SFAT), he still thought it was best to switch to Fox because of logical reasons (i.e. Fox fit Leffen better than Falco did), and now he's one of the best players in the world. I know I'm not Leffen, so again maybe Falco IS the fit for me, but this is worth noting because I hear people say to just stick it out with their original main, since the problem may be you as a player, not the character.

You don't have to stop playing Falco, but if you're having these doubts then you need to address them. This waffling won't be good for you, and you need to either switch or not. Identifying what's really at the heart of things for you is important. I've seen many people drop their long-time mains then just quit taking the game seriously, as if they were looking for an excuse to stop or they just want variety elsewhere in life and they mirror that in Melee. In this case, they could get variety from looking at their character or the game a new way, but they just say the problem is their character. It could even be something outside of the game. Anyway, I think you should make a very clear decision and stick with it. One way is to go all-in on Fox and give yourself 6-12 months and see how you feel with him then and if this is the right path, or just say you're going to play him no matter what and decide to revisit the issue later after you've improved your Fox a lot. Whatever you do, it can help to have concrete goals and firm reasoning so you make your decisions with purpose.

Hey, I was wondering how you go about thinking about the game and how you parse info? I have a problem where I have trouble switching between thinking about player habits, MU knowledge, ect. and looking at what's going on currently in game and applying that knowledge.

I think an example might be helpful here. But really, those things can be related. So if you know a Fox could Nair, and the player does like to Nair in this space and percent and stage position, then that should all work together seamlessly for you. Maybe you are consciously thinking too much during a match? Or maybe you haven't integrated the knowledge super well yet. Let me know if any of this is helpful and if there's any more information.

 

[AnonymousID]

Hey pp, how do you play neutral against people that seemingly have no patterns / habits?

Against most lower level players, neutral seems pretty simple since players either do the same thing every time or are just unfamiliar in a situation, and you can exploit that really easily.

However my friend recently started to never do the same thing twice and always try to do something different/random in a situation. He told me he would just look at like the position between us and just do something random. It's hard because I feel like every decision I make is just a 50/50 without any real information to go off of. I also feel like I have to just play random and unpredictable but I really want to get better at figuring out what my opponent is doing.

I don't really know how high level neutral works, but I feel like since both players know all the mixup, neutral ends up being random chance. But clearly that's not the case since some people are better than others. I'm guessing they notice a bunch of small details that I would gloss over, but I don't really know what kinds of things top players would look for since it feels like there's no patterns.

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you force someone to act, then they might act in a way you don't expect, but they will act. This is one way to have control of situations. If you move toward your opponent, and get inside their threatening range, you force them to act. Lasering when closer forces them to act. Laser itself forces them to act unless they want to stay locked down. Even people acting "randomly" would usually act at similar timings and change things a bit more between typically good options. For now, it would be good to get them to start acting and seeing what timings and spacings bring that, and then look at the different things they choose and divide and remember those as best as you can.

 

[AnonymousID]

What's the difference between them acting because you force them to vs them acting just because and how can I tell?
How many times would a scenario need to happen in a match before you have a good idea of what they like to do?
Also how often should I mix -up my forcing options and when should I go for one instead of playing safe vs disengaging?
I feel like I can't just do the same choices like always running in or always lasering at them since it's punishable but if I do something different every time it doesn't seem like I'll collect information.

 

[Wiggy Jiggy Jed]

Thank you for the reply - this forced me to really think about my position and not just play x character because y person said so.

I want to put my thoughts out here (and this will force me to be clear about them as well). I've noticed that there is a pattern whenever this happens, where I think what's really going on is that I'm getting burnt out. I notice that my gameplay is much more stagnate, and my decision making feels limited - it feels much harder to do things / think about things that are usually a non-issue. I find it particularly difficult to notice what my opponent is doing in more nuanced scenarios (although that may be in part due to my skill level, as I'm still learning to adapt more). All these issues are also transferable to my other characters as well, and I think the reason why Fox or Marth feels so much better to me in these moments is because I have a more structured approach with them and have rules to fall back on.

So I think that's why I have these thoughts - it might be similar to how you viewed Marth before, where you said you find it easier to play him on a lower energy level (obviously we have different reasons for this though lol). So it's partly being burnt out, partly my own mentality, but the point is that I don't think that dropping Falco is the right call. I think as of now, it makes sense to take a small break, continue to work on myself, and try to be in that positive / high energy state of mind more often, where I think Falco can do what he does

 

[Dr Peepee]

What's the difference between them acting because you force them to vs them acting just because and how can I tell?
How many times would a scenario need to happen in a match before you have a good idea of what they like to do?
Also how often should I mix -up my forcing options and when should I go for one instead of playing safe vs disengaging?
I feel like I can't just do the same choices like always running in or always lasering at them since it's punishable but if I do something different every time it doesn't seem like I'll collect information.

It depends.

It depends on your knowledge.

It depends on your preferences.

Play simply, think of how Falco's tools influence the opponent and think of threatening range, play in small clusters of actions once you've done that. It'll be randomly randomly randomness if you don't structure your play and train.

Thank you for the reply - this forced me to really think about my position and not just play x character because y person said so.

I want to put my thoughts out here (and this will force me to be clear about them as well). I've noticed that there is a pattern whenever this happens, where I think what's really going on is that I'm getting burnt out. I notice that my gameplay is much more stagnate, and my decision making feels limited - it feels much harder to do things / think about things that are usually a non-issue. I find it particularly difficult to notice what my opponent is doing in more nuanced scenarios (although that may be in part due to my skill level, as I'm still learning to adapt more). All these issues are also transferable to my other characters as well, and I think the reason why Fox or Marth feels so much better to me in these moments is because I have a more structured approach with them and have rules to fall back on.

So I think that's why I have these thoughts - it might be similar to how you viewed Marth before, where you said you find it easier to play him on a lower energy level (obviously we have different reasons for this though lol). So it's partly being burnt out, partly my own mentality, but the point is that I don't think that dropping Falco is the right call. I think as of now, it makes sense to take a small break, continue to work on myself, and try to be in that positive / high energy state of mind more often, where I think Falco can do what he does

Word, good luck!

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

PP, a long time ago you had a mantra “I will always play well”. I was curious about the origin of it and the purpose it served.

Was it one of the following:
- something you told yourself constantly so that your mind believed it and it would become a reality
- something born out of legitimate confidence in the amount of practice/hours you put into the game
- a way to hold yourself accountable against any possible excuses about your level of play at a certain time

Or maybe something else entirely

 

[Dr Peepee]

I would say it was primarily about the second, as I was always confident in my abilities since I could trust my training. That always made the fear go away. It's possible I put other things into it later when I got more into the weeds with mental improvement, but I don't remember anything about it now.

 

[Morsecode762]

Hey, I was thinking about the issue that I have. From playing players at my level, I end up knowing what moves they use, but I am bad at keeping track of anything else. Sometimes, I get really caught up and forget what I am doing entirely. I didnt really expect myself to have this issue with how far ive come. I was wondering, did you ever struggle with those sorts of problems and, since ive heard that you got good based on solo practice, how'd you deal with it? Also, how do you keep presence of mind during a match?

 

[Yort]

I see what you're getting at, but if you only accept losing after the match is over, doesn't that suggest that the possibility of losing is a relevant factor during the match that can inhibit your ability to think clearly?

Yes I assume that problem has to be dealt with separately.

Dr Peepee

https://youtu.be/3aHB44B944k?t=150
Do you think you should do this full hop bair if you’re too late to actually hit his landing and it connects with shield instead?
Should you do something else if you know you’re late and that the bair will connect on shield like waveland on platform grab or go for a shine stab or shine waveland pressure etc?