F-Throw To C-Sticked F-Smash Chart (With Amazing KO Options) UPDATED

[illinialex24]

I did this mainly because I insulted Emblem Lord (I'm sorry) but the discoveries were stunning. Not only did it allow for massive damage to be racked up by using this technique (19 for a non-pummeled, non tipped move and 23 for a non-pummeled, tipped move) but also allowed KO's.

This was done in training and I tested by raising the starting damage until consecutive hits stopped happening and recorded the highest damage they took place at.

More characters are soon to come, but I have currently only done the top two rows in the character list.

The chart will say:

Character Name|When The F-Smash Hits| When The F-Smash Tips| If They Can Die*

*This is without a DI but almost all that can kill without DI can kill with DI (from the edge of Final Destination where they were killed to the side)

Mario |0-4% |0-4% |N
Donkey Kong |0-47% |3-47% |Y
Link |0-1% |0-1% |N
Samus |7-21% |7-21% |N
Kirby |5-10% |5-10% |N
Fox |0-43% |15-43% |Y
Pikachu |0-37% |23-37% |Y
Marth |6-38% |6-38% |Y
Game and Watch|5-23% |5-23% |N
Luigi |0-4% |0-4% |N
Diddy Kong |0-22% |0-22% |N
Zelda |6-18% |6-18% |N
Sheik |0-25% |0-25% |N
Pit |0-3,6-44% |0-3,17-44% |Y
Metaknight |0-27% |5-27% |N
Falco |0-30% |1-30% |Y
Squirtle |0-5% |3-5% |N
Ivysaur |0-27% |3-27% |N
Charizard |0-11% |0-11% |N
Ike |0-20,23-45%|0-6,17-20,23-45%|Y
Snake |7-29% |7-29% |N

The most notable characters are Donkey Kong, Fox, Pikachu, Marth, Pit, Falco, and Ike of those done so far because they can all die due to a throw combo. This can really improve your game and works great if you grab an opponent who miffs a recovery. If they miff near the ledge and are near the upper end of the overall damage percentage where the F-Smash hits, it will be an almost certain kill sideways or below.

 

[HADOOKEN]

u did this to plz EL?

 

[illinialex24]

Kinda, but the formatting is terrible. I'm gonna fix this up (I also second Marth so this is a great find for me as well).

 

[ZHMT]

You can fthrow to fsmash DK at 47%? Meaning at the edge at 47% he dies? *goes to try*

 

[∫unk]

Did you try DIing the throw? Most don't tipper if you do that but I haven't extensively tested this on anyone but snake and meta.

 

[illinialex24]

You can fthrow to fsmash DK at 47%? Meaning at the edge at 47% he dies? *goes to try*

Yes. This was done in training so DI's are not included but this could be a great KO option. Once the throw is made, the opponent has no options and I would like some verification that this works with the proper DI's, but I doubt you would have to worry about that since this deals with a true combo.

And to get this to work, you really have to slam the C-stick the first frame you get. Otherwise, they can get away at higher percentages.

 

[ZHMT]

Yes. This was done in training so DI's are not included but this could be a great KO option. Once the throw is made, the opponent has no options and I would like some verification that this works with the proper DI's, but I doubt you would have to worry about that since this deals with a true combo.

And to get this to work, you really have to slam the C-stick the first frame you get. Otherwise, they can get away at higher percentages.

Yeah, just tried it, and it works. Very nice.

 

[Pierce7d]

Wow, wtf, this might fix my match issue. 47%?!?!?!

 

[metroid1117]

This is interesting... why are there breaks in the % ranges? Do they move too far or is there a change in the throw animation (like being able to tech or not)? Also, did you work at 1/4th speed to see if you really are hitting with the FSmash at the proper time? I'm not criticizing or downplaying your work at all, I just find it intriguing.

 

[ZHMT]

Wow, wtf, this might fix my match issue. 47%?!?!?!

Yeah, like on character such as Fox, I always tried fthrow to fsmash at 5% or so, and it didnt tip. So I used dancing blade instead. Now I see you need like 15ish % to tip meaning a grab at 45% is like instant death at a edge....Marths grabs are getting better (not like they are that bad tho)

 

[Dynomite]

was playin brawl today and i just found this out before seeing this thread, lol thaught it was new... thx for the list. greatly appriciated.

 

[jinofcoolnes]

F-trow to f-tilt is better fir me more safer too.


but thanks for listing the percents .

 

[illinialex24]

This is interesting... why are there breaks in the % ranges? Do they move too far or is there a change in the throw animation (like being able to tech or not)? Also, did you work at 1/4th speed to see if you really are hitting with the FSmash at the proper time? I'm not criticizing or downplaying your work at all, I just find it intriguing.

I noticed that the hitstun and the distance of the throws do not seem to grow proportionally so that way the opponent will stay within the range of the attack while the hitstun (the opponent seems to move backward slower while they were in hitstun, whether the CP was trying to apply a sideways DI, which they seem to do in the air even if they are set to stop, or whether it slows them down) is keeping the opponent in the range of your F-smash. I did not do this at 1/4th speed because it screws up my timing and so I actually did worse at 1/4th but I did it repeatedly at normal speed (around 10 times repetition if I couldn't get it) so I believe they are almost perfectly accurate.

Yeah, like on character such as Fox, I always tried fthrow to fsmash at 5% or so, and it didnt tip. So I used dancing blade instead. Now I see you need like 15ish % to tip meaning a grab at 45% is like instant death at a edge....Marths grabs are getting better (not like they are that bad tho)

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing on why I couldn't tip Ike at some really weird points. Its nice that his grabs are becoming instant death before 50 damage.

was playin brawl today and i just found this out before seeing this thread, lol thaught it was new... thx for the list. greatly appriciated.

Thanks for the compliment and I should be adding more percentages tomorrow.

F-trow to f-tilt is better fir me more safer too.


but thanks for listing the percents .

Trust me, this works a lot better if you just C-stick. It really gives you KO options and you can rack up 19-23 damage each time. Thats better than an f-tilt and this is safe because it is a true combo (you hit them while they are still immobilized by hitstun).

And the best part is, unlike what was thought before where everyone though the opponent had to be under 5% damage (they were testing it on Mario most likely...), you can really set-up or actually kill opponents with this and it doesn;t have to be a first move option.

 

[jinofcoolnes]

^^yea but its not 100% going to happen all the time, so for me it's better to be safe.

 

[illinialex24]

As long as you do it at the right time and throw out the f-smash fast enough, it is 100%. And it is definitely safer than f-tilt with higher reward because you do the attack during their hitstun

 

[jinofcoolnes]

they can DI......

 

[illinialex24]

they can DI......

Do you know what hitstun is??

 

[ZHMT]

Do you know what hitstun is??

You actually can DI at some points of the fthrow to fsmash. Otherwise 0-death combos would be very common in melee. Look at ssb64...um yeah.

People used DI to get out of combos, if DI didnt work during hitstun, it would be one fair and your done, ko'd (in melee).

Brawl is no exception.

You can DI during hitstun, you just cant airdodge or attack. However some of the fthrow to fsmash is completely unescapable on some chars during some %'s.

 

[Shaya]

Players can still move during hitstun... they just can't attack..

 

[magikguy]

i did it once to pit , his reaction was funny.

 

[illinialex24]

Yeah, but its not enough to avoid the actual attack most of the time and I believe the opponent was actually DIing away... Even in training they seem to DI in the air.

 

[ZHMT]

Yeah, but its not enough to avoid the actual attack most of the time and I believe the opponent was actually DIing away... Even in training they seem to DI in the air.

True but it is still indeed possible with some characters, and jinofcoolnes was saying that a ftilt may be less risky. I agree there is no risk trying a fthrow to fsmash, however its his playstyle and his preference. Plus he may want to conserve his fsmash for later. Who knows.

 

[illinialex24]

Yeah, thats an option, but if it doesnt hit, it wont become degnerated so you really have nothing to lose in a KO situation.

 

[Zankoku]

In Melee, setting the LV of the CPU would affect how they DI certain things. For instance, a LV1 CPU Fox would DI a Peach chaingrab fully away, while a LV4 CPU Fox would not DI at all.

Try playing with the CPU level and see how each one DIs.

 

[illinialex24]

Yeah, I'll try that out tomorrow. But new find by someone on Allisbrawl, apparently you can extend the range this by dashing slightly during the f-smash and almost certainly keeping it a combo... This is amazing.

 

[stabbedbyahippie]

Yeah, I'll try that out tomorrow. But new find by someone on Allisbrawl, apparently you can extend the range this by dashing slightly during the f-smash and almost certainly keeping it a combo... This is amazing.

You mean stutter step Fsmash (I believe that's what it's called) after the Fthrow? Wouldn't that take a bit longer so they could get slightly out of your range?

 

[3xSwords]

..........

Was the cpu lvl 7 or up? If it was you will make this combo practical after the 0-5% range. If they weren't then this definitely won't work, unless the person DI's incorrectly or not at all and if they don't air dodge.

Also you say you could kill DK without DI at 47% and say there would the same results with DI? Don't underestimate DI'ing and SDI'ing. Trust me if you're opponent knows how to DI, I'm pretty sure they would not die even if they were hit from the edge of the stage (talking FD other stages with smaller blast zones, DI won't make a difference.)

Personally I believe f-throw > f-smash is a great combo, but why do you think you don't see any successful Marth players pull it off in vids? B/c it probably doesn't work. If an idiot like me tests if this combo can be done past 5% the moment I hear of it. I'm sure smarter players would have done also and realized it ain't valid.

 

[illinialex24]

..........

Was the cpu lvl 7 or up? If it was you will make this combo practical after the 0-5% range. If they weren't then this definitely won't work, unless the person DI's incorrectly or not at all and if they don't air dodge.

Also you say you could kill DK without DI at 47% and say there would the same results with DI? Don't underestimate DI'ing and SDI'ing. Trust me if you're opponent knows how to DI, I'm pretty sure they would not die even if they were hit from the edge of the stage (talking FD other stages with smaller blast zones, DI won't make a difference.)

Personally I believe f-throw > f-smash is a great combo, but why do you think you don't see any successful Marth players pull it off in vids? B/c it probably doesn't work. If an idiot like me tests if this combo can be done past 5% the moment I hear of it. I'm sure smarter players would have done also and realized it ain't valid.

I learned the stutter stepped f-smash is not a combo, I didn't have my wii and was hearing it being tested by someone else. They can air-dodge avoid it but I'll finish out the testing today.

 

[3xSwords]

I learned the stutter stepped f-smash is not a combo, I didn't have my wii and was hearing it being tested by someone else. They can air-dodge avoid it but I'll finish out the testing today.

lol where in my post did I mention stutter step f-smash?

Sorry but I'm going to have to tell you this combo truly doesn't work past 5%. After that people can DI and they can air dodge. You can punish both options but that means the f-throw to f-smash combo has been broken and you are just tech chasing now.

For some characters it might even work at the 0-5% range and for some it isn't an auto tipper.

Some heavies can actually avoid a f-throw -> f-smash at the 0-5% range and some characters aren't auto tippered (I think MK was one), but this problem is solved with stutter stepping forwards or backwards.

 

[illinialex24]

lol where in my post did I mention stutter step f-smash?

Sorry but I'm going to have to tell you this combo truly doesn't work past 5%. After that people can DI and they can air dodge. You can punish both options but that means the f-throw to f-smash combo has been broken and you are just tech chasing now.

For some characters it might even work at the 0-5% range and for some it isn't an auto tipper.

Some heavies can actually avoid a f-throw -> f-smash at the 0-5% range and some characters aren't auto tippered (I think MK was one), but this problem is solved with stutter stepping forwards or backwards.

Do you see the word consecutive hits?? Thats how I was testing this to be a combo. I got consecutive hits on DK up to 47% (and all the other characters at those %'s), so read before posting.

 

[Pierce7d]

Yeah, but a human will DI outta this WAY before 47%. Just making sure all of you know.

 

[Ulevo]

1) This chart isn't incorporating stutter stepped FSmashes. If it did, you would find that FSmash could hit characters from a FThrow that normally it wouldn't, such as R.O.B. and Toon Link.

2) DThrow to FSmash can also work in the same fashion. This is what I use for Meta Knight, and the Space Animals.

3) Do not rely on the consecutive hits counter in training as a reliable source. It can be deceiving sometimes, and give you false results. There will be times that an opponent can react fully but the combo is still counted. Although, FThrow/DThrow to FSmash at low percents is a true combo, including stutter stepped ones. You can tell by the animation change when they stop working.

Just to give you some advice if you wish to expand on the list. I was going to construct this before I got tired of Marth, but I got busy.

 

[3xSwords]

Do you see the word consecutive hits?? Thats how I was testing this to be a combo. I got consecutive hits on DK up to 47% (and all the other characters at those %'s), so read before posting.

Did you read anything I said? Getting consecutive hits in training mode don't mean **** unless you had someone DI'ing it. I also tested this out before and I noticed even past 5% you could hit them with f-smash. But I also found they could DI and air dodge to avoid it past 5%.

Like Ulevo said consecutive hits in training mode is very deceiving b/c it will count consecutive hits not accounting whether or not it could be air dodged. For example a C. Falcon dair>fair combo at high %'s is considered a combo in training mode if both hits connect. However, it is possible to air dodge after the dair and avoid the fair.

Get what I'm saying? Anyway keep up your work. And if you get the same results with human DI, air dodging, and the whole package of everything else then you'll have something believable.

 

[illinialex24]

Who did you test it out on?? Mario?? Cause I got this on a lv 90 dk up until 30%

 

[Ulevo]

CPU = horrible test subject. Use a live person for your results.

 

[Pierce7d]

lol, Training mode is garbage for testing. Go to a custom stage with a spring, pick Ganon, and keep Dairing your opponent into it. You can rack up unlimited consecutive hits until your opponent dies.

 

[Kodachrome]

^ Sad. You'd think they would've picked up things like this. Oh well. At least Luigi uses both of his recoveries now. xD


Does anybody here plan on actually researching this or are we just calling shenanigans on the whole thing? I mean, I've always done the 0-grab to tipper, but never bothered at any other %.

 

[3xSwords]

My testings have shown its shenanigans and not viable. Don't know about this guy, but if he gets contrary results with real people then this is the next advancement in Marth's game b/c Marth will have a reliable kill move, but not going to happen imo.

 

[Pierce7d]

It's just not a combo. No opinions about it. As for me, I've been trying it at late percentages with different characters simply to get a feel of where I can do it, and where I can't.

 

[illinialex24]

****, that really sucks but it should be safer than other options out of the f-throw.