EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[bubbaking]

This data is however incorrect... samus's invincibility only lasts 4 frames, and there is no invincible hitbox, because it comes out on frame 5... at least thats the way it is on v1.2. (Personally went over the frame data with an AR) As for all this hype bubba was giving for a 2 frame window... if the falco shines instead up jumping up for another aerial, there is no window, you need to wait for the Falco to jump cancel the shine, wait for them to come down again, and then you can up OoS) Also if you mistime this... you get hit with falcos dair... and they take a 1 percent trade.... seems like a good option... :/ not really though.... 2 frames... 60 frames in a second.... 1/30th of a second reaction time to get it correct... and the average reaction time of a human is .15-.3 seconds... the timing for this attack exactly... is .03 reaction time..... gl with that one bubbaking

I pulled this info straight from ST's and SDM's data compilation:

Screw Attack

--from the ground--
Total: 49
invincible: 1-5

Hit: 4-7, 8-9, 10-11, 12-13, 14-15,
16-17, 18-19, 20-21, 22-23, 24-25,
26-27, 28-29
can grab edge as soon as 26

--in the air--
Total: 47
Invincible: 1-3
Hit: 4-5, 6-7, 8-9, 10-11, 12-13,
14-15, 16-17, 18-19, 20-21, 22-23,
24-25, 26-27
can grab edge as soon as 38

Also, look at that data thread that I linked in the post you're quoting. If Falco hits your shield with the latest dair possible, there are two frames of LC lag where you are not in any shield-stun. This means he can't shine you before you begin an upB OoS. In other words, there is absolutely no way for any spacee to perfectly pin Samus in her shield with anything other than Fox's multishines, and even Fox's multishines have a hole that can be punished (also shown in that thread). Also, if you choose to delay your upB OoS and Falco actually decides to jump OoShine without dairing as early as possible (which is really bad for shield pressure) instead of waveshining away, you get a free upB OoS that will catch him out of his jump. There is no "reaction" here. Playing against a spacee means you have to read how he will pressure you, just as he has to read how you will try to counter his pressure. If you know he is going to pressure you a certain way, upB'ing OoS is a piece of cake. If you feel stuck, it is because you are not timing your action correctly or Falco is varying his pressure accordingly.

There is not a single spacee that I haven't been able to upB OoS for trying to pressure me too hard.

 

[Litt]

Bubba... no offense but you are not a great player. There are no matches of you up bing OoS against Westballs... Mango... M2K... or anyone notible to be making these claims of samus's viability of up bing out of any situation. You need 1 frame in which to jump/drop sheild then you can up b out of it... there is no overlap on frame 4 of invins with the attack, so you will trade with falco doing perfect pressure. You are just as much of an authority on samus as myself, if not less because there are no bigs wins for you, even you making it far in doubles. The frame data you are pulling is incorrect, and should be fixed, and it does in fact vary by version number, so what you may be pulling from the data archive is only applicable to v 1.0. I personally tested the frames on 1.2 and can verify you are wrong, there also has to be a lot of reaction time going into this for a 1 frame window... which will give you a trade anyway.... just as no one consistently does the super wave dash... 1 frame window..... no one can consistently up b out of this pressure.... (if done perfectly)

 

[bubbaking]

KLit, I'm a better Samus than you. You're not particularly great either. I checked the one tournament we both went to, and while I certainly did not do well at all, you did worse. Don't act like I am "less" of an authority than you because you have some "big wins" that I don't, because you most definitely do not. I'm just gonna leave it at that.

You are very clearly lying or you do not know what you are talking about when you say that there are no recorded matches of me upB'ing notable people OoS. Maybe you've never seen me do that to the people you say because I've never gotten the chance to play them in tournament? (-_-)

Not to mention, I don't need there to be videos up to have faith in what I know to be true. You're not reacting to the 1-frame window. If anything, you're reacting to the way Falco dairs you.

Btw, an upB trade with Falco's dair is in Samus' favor most of the time.

Also, don't start spouting some doubles nonsense just because Spawn carried you two to a win against me and BigWenz. You guys only ended up one placement above us. I don't see where in my posts I warranted such a personal attack. <__<

 

[JerkPhil]

I really don't like the attitude in many of your posts both here and in the PM sub-forum, KLit. Please...

 

[Litt]

Umm Bubba... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9dv54OxuQA ... the reason you dont have any problem up bing... is because you TELL YOUR OPPONENT YOU WILL CONSTANTLY BE DOING IT SHOULD YOU COME ANYWHERE NEAR YOU.... if you made your moves that obvious, there is no pressure needed, just approach, wait for you to up b, and then punish accordingly, just listen to the commentators telling the stream what mistakes you are making. As for being carried by spawn... look at the last HoG Tourney... where we beat Zoso and Tope in winners.... at RoM 6... where we placed 9th.... neither of those can be called carried in the least. As for being a better samus than you, I'm not going to argue the point because there is no point, you flat out say you are a better samus than myself, (which I find laughable)... because when we played at zenith (in tourney and friendlies, your samus was losing to my own), and when we played at Knuts place just a few weeks ago, you barley scrapped a win after I had a commanding lead for the majority of the game.... I'm not stupid enough to pass judgement on one tournament, but you can make any claims you want. I made no claims about your skill as a samus player... all I said was that you are not a great player... you are not a MDZ... you are not a DJ nintendo, that is all I was saying, and you made this was too personal staking your reputation as a player on this piece of info despite being incorrect here. You claim you can do it from all your experience, however that perfect pressure, at least from all the matches I have tried to find it being used against you, was never done because how consistently you through your up b move out as a defensive option. There was no personal attack here, you took it as such because you based your info on a combination of your own experience and incorrect frame data, and when I called out the combo being inaccurate, you took offense.

@Jerk, the one offensive post I put on the PM forum was telling this kid who wanted to completely change the name of the super wave dash... and was quite avid about it, I wanted to let him know in the clearest possible way that it wasn't happening and that he should stop wasting everyone's time arguing about a term that has long been in the melee communities dictionary.

 

[Litt]

Finally the last misconception with the frame data regarding samus's up b is where the hitboxes are located, so even if a falco is successful doing an dair on samus in sheild, and she can perfectly up b out of it, falco will be in the center of samus's body when doing the up b, and the 3rd frame when falco's shine goes off, or another dair ensues... the hitboxes of samus's up b will not be touching falco and his move will hit you first.

 

[Litt]

Finally you said, Btw, an upB trade with Falco's dair is in Samus' favor most of the time, most of the time? I would disagree with that because while yes it puts falco in hit stun, and maybe you get 1% on him, you get knocked back to the ground and are in hit stun yourself, so maybe you can try to get a read on his tech but thats not a guarantee. So at the end of the day, you got a bad trade percent wise and a possibility of a punish. (Funny thing is, when we played at Zenith... that was my 2nd tournament and I still didnt know how to L cancel, do jab pressure or shffmc xDDD)

 

[iRobinhoood]

I smell a pride/money match of sorts a brewin.

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, you posted one of my worse performances in tournament against a Falco. I had just come out of a P:M tourney and going straight from P:M to Melee always makes me stiff. No johns, of course, and definitely congrats to GimR; he earned that win, but if you'd noticed, I was spot-dodging and rolling all over the place and even sticking in my shield or dropping it normally against things that were easily punishable because I couldn't WD OoS properly. As a result, I purposefully resorted to upB'ing OoS more often because I was practically stuck. Go look at any other set I play against a spacee and you will not see me upB as much as I did that day.

Also, that match I won against you at Knut's was one of my first matches that day after walking outside in the cold for more than half an hour. Cold hands and first game johns (even though I still won <__< ). I have beaten G$'s Falco, Wenbo's Falco, Big Wenz's Falco, and others all in tournament, so I believe I am fairly well-versed in the Falco MU (which Nintendude pointed out in that set).

I took offense because you kinda came out of nowhere with that "you are not great" comment. Never said I was and I never expected it to mean anything. -_-

 

[bubbaking]

About Samus trading her upB with Falco's dair, well you linked that video, so I might as well point out some areas where that definitely came into play.

At 3:40, notice how Falco was at 0% and yet he still gets knocked down by the first hit of upB. I also missed my tech and I still got to get up before he did. Of course, I completely botched my opportunity by ADing like that. Had I quickly dropped down, I could have punished that get-up attack with anything I chose. Had I actually teched, I could have just dsmashed his missed tech.

At 10:50, I knocked him onto a platform above me with the trade and I wasn't knocked down, even though I was at 50%. I lost my opportunity to punish because I held shield (I was trying to tech but I was never knocked down) and then dropped it normally instead of jumping out immediately, so my nair was too late. Heck, if I hadn't shielded, I could have just utilted Falco's tech because I had frame advantage during Falco's entire tech animation, but factoring in that shield, any aerial OoS was still completely guaranteed. It's worth noting that non-tumble-inducing hitstun is kinda cancelled when you hit the ground which was why I was able to act instantly (you can see my shield) right after Falco daired me instead of going into the long hitstun I would have normally entered, since I was airborne for a split second.

It's not about the damage. Samus' direct damage output is kinda booty. It's about capitalizing on the opportunity and keeping the opponent completely off-balance. That's what an upB trade does, and when taken advantage of, it can translate to a lost stock. Remember that example of mine at 10:50 where I wasn't knocked down? I've already come into similar situations, but without the platform (or already on top of one), where a traded upB comboed perfectly into an fsmash. I'd also like to note that I don't think I ever traded my upB with Falco's dair in a way that put me at any disadvantage during that set. I, the player, did not capitalize. That does not mean the opportunity to do so was never there.

 

[Litt]

See how both situations were not capitalized on... and the first one really had no ground of being beneficial towards samus because almost every good falco would have teched.... I am not saying that up b OoS is not samus's best option, but it is severely limited and it is not as amazing as you are trying to make it seem. Oxy clean was amazing billy mayes... and he sold it to a lot of people, but it was still not as good as he made everyone believe it to be.

 

[Litt]

I just meant you weren't a notable samus, I didnt say you werent a good player. And if you want a rematch at apex id be happy to do so after your hands warm up ^_^ ;p

 

[JerkPhil]

The thing is KLit, that it's really easy to take offence by your posts. I don't think the person in the PM boards really had any intention to change an old well established term either.
I'm just begging you to calm down. I read your posts as if you really want a fight out of it. I don't think this is your intention. Please read your posts carefully before posting them.

 

[bubbaking]

Unfortunately, I will not be able to make it to this year's APEX... You'll have to take a rain-check on that rematch.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

I really don't like the attitude in many of your posts both here and in the PM sub-forum, KLit. Please...

I think I could have said something earlier, but.. I think I have the same sentiment as well. But bubbaking I think you are a bit cocky and quick to speak yourself.

 

[Litt]

The thing is KLit, that it's really easy to take offence by your posts. I don't think the person in the PM boards really had any intention to change an old well established term either.
I'm just begging you to calm down. I read your posts as if you really want a fight out of it. I don't think this is your intention. Please read your posts carefully before posting them.

Jerk... you are reading them and interpreting it as such... my intention can only really be identified by myself, and what I say it is... you must accept regardless of how you want to interpret something. I do read my post carefully before posting something... and I would thank you very much to do the same. Do not act condescending and above it all because some people have to be the bad guy, and yes that kid did want to actually change the name for the super wave dash, and I rightfully shot him down in the most direct way possible. On the same note though, I am allowed to voice my own opinion on here, and whether is was done... "nice" or not, is not up to you. You can ask nicely for me to speak with incompetent people less bluntly, but that is all you can do. Now stop wasting both our time, and just let me post as I please.

 

[Marmalad3]

Hey, can you guys help me understand when to use aerials? I know that Samus is pretty weak in the air, and I'm used to being able to jump around like an idiot with Falco, so I just want some clarification on what I can do with relative safety. For example, should I try to just finish a stock with nair, or should I be trying to poke people on platforms? I've been watching a whole bunch of Samus vids but it seems to me like what works once will get punished super hard the next time. Any pointers?

 

[bubbaking]

Stay grounded most of the time. If opponents are standing on plats above Samus, it's usually good to poke at them with utilt and such. Fair, uair, and bomb waveland are decent options, and they can reap different kinds of rewards, but it's hard to go wrong with utilt. Aerials can be used well when you already have the advantage after a hit, such as during a combo or tech-chase. For instance, after a pop-up hit from dtilt, you could use nair or bair to send the opponent offstage. During a platform tech-chase, you could use dair to extend the combo by popping the opponent up for more hits. Generally, you'll be able to figure out when to use aerials, but it's always good to stay grounded.

bubbaking I think you are a bit cocky and quick to speak yourself.

Well, I certainly don't mean to seem like that. If anything, I am very confident in understanding and interpreting certain things like frame data, coming up with applications for said things, and then using them in practice. That is why I usually seem so sure of what I'm saying. I don't usually spend much time on the boards these days (this has been quite the extended spurt of activity from me), because I've been focusing heavily on improving myself without being tempted to 'talk too much' on forums like this.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

Well, I certainly don't mean to seem like that.

Haha, seeing the response you gave here and in the other thread, consider my 'cocky' comment retracted. I'll respond to the other thread later. Well, merry Christmas/happy holidays!

 

[Violence]

Jerk... you are reading them and interpreting it as such... my intention can only really be identified by myself, and what I say it is... you must accept regardless of how you want to interpret something. I do read my post carefully before posting something... and I would thank you very much to do the same. Do not act condescending and above it all because some people have to be the bad guy, and yes that kid did want to actually change the name for the super wave dash, and I rightfully shot him down in the most direct way possible. On the same note though, I am allowed to voice my own opinion on here, and whether is was done... "nice" or not, is not up to you. You can ask nicely for me to speak with incompetent people less bluntly, but that is all you can do. Now stop wasting both our time, and just let me post as I please.

This is a forum where we talk about our mid tier character and discuss her properties and options. All I see from you is criticism and derision. You are literally the most aggressive and prolific poster on this sub forum, and it's killing whatever kind of healthy discussion that could possibly take place. I'm pretty sure that if you don't change your behavior, the activity in this sub forum is going to drop even lower as people just stop going on smashboards and theorycraft via Facebook PM instead.

There's no reason we have to come here to interact with someone as ridiculously argumentative and judgmental as yourself, so if you keep doing what you're doing, we just won't.

 

[Litt]

Violence there has to be a balance of good and bad for everything, I am critical, you can be plesent to smashers who care to make claims or propositions without thinking, and I will just be the one who shoots them down. As for criticism and derision... you were actually quite abrasive to myself when I was newer to the community and started posting here, and I still stayed regardless of who (you) insulted me. You are the biggest hypocrite for telling anyone to calm down or talking about aggressive posting... I mean just your very name is aggressive bro.

 

[ManoxMano]

Enough drama, time for some real chat.
So I played friendlies with Mew2King and got absolutely rolled, but I learned a lot about my problems when I play
Note the MUs in question are mainly Marth and Shiek
Firstly, my close-medium range footsie game is AWFUL. I always use the wrong moves at the wrong time, and always wavedash short enough for me to barely hit them i.e, the f-tilt is pixels out of hitting the guy. How do you guys force the opponent into their shield at this range? How do you handle yourself in terms of movement? How do you maneuver around the sword, and with the arsenal of Shiek? Where are the openings?

2nd, My play when I'm at the ledge is god awful. I spend a lot of time grabbing the ledge cuz I lose the neutral game, but at this point am I basically done. I feel that Sheik and Marth cover anything and everything I do, and there's not much I can do to force them into a specific section of the stage. I noticed when M2K was holding back a little more, I could do a HugS or a short ledge roll (pressing up). but when he's just sitting there as Marth waiting for me to do something, I am lost. How can I get back at the stage, and maintain a standing on the stage, rather then getting pushed back out?

My last problem is my shield pressure. Imagine, finally getting to put some pressure after getting bodied over and over. I'm just jabbing away and M2K is sitting shield. And he rolls away. How do I handle that option? It feels like I have to WD instantly to his position to keep the pressure. And does a jab hit>Dsmash a true combo? What can I get if I ever hit a jab?

Also, what are the D-pad inputs for the Extenduuuuuuuuur, I know it's not just random directions

 

[JerkPhil]

1. I'm almost certain neither Marth or Sheik can shield grab Samus after a well spaced tilt. Personally, I often retreat when I notice I can't get anything more from a situation, approaching again with a missile. I'm not very good a shield pressuring yet.

2. I've thought about this a lot after last weeks tournament, when I lost to a Marth (one game even timed out). I had trouble getting back on to the stage. I often do the normal stand up at <100% cause of the amount of invincibility frames. The Marth I faced picked up on it, though. I think the AI (Aerial Interrupt) is a legit way to get back. Here's the thread about it: http://smashboards.com/threads/ledge-dj-cancel-aerial-interrupt.311628/

3. Samus gets countered by shield as our grab is 18 frames. More than enough for a human to react to.
When they roll, you should wavedash after as you said. I'm no expert on shield pressure though. Try wavebombing too. It's great against shields.
Jab can combo to Dsmash on fast fallers at the right %. Ftilt is safer though.

4. I play PAL, so I'm not sure about the extender.

 

[ManoxMano]

1. Usually I'm not too bad when they're stuck in shield, I think my biggest problems occur when they are moving a lot and I'm forced to move back from their dashdance, or when I'm in shield. Not to mention when I fail to defend myself from their mixup. My movement is terrible but this isn't something I can talk about, I'll upload a Marth replay the next time I can face one in a tourny match

2. I'll check this out soon. I know this is a tactic, but I've never been really too sure about the inputs. I tried winging it before and it never worked out

3. Ehh I think grab isn't that bad in shield pressure, .tea makes extensive use of it and it's a good mixup imo. It's similar to Balrog's blockstring in SFIV, while effective as a tactic it is a risk in higher levels and should be used as a trump card. Wavedashing after them is tough for me because my I have a low level in reactions so it's hard for me to follow up, but is something I will work on. Personally bomblanding is something I only do on platforms.
Maybe run up to them, bombland, and then continue jab pressure. that sounds sexy to me so I'll try it out
Thanks for the dsmash info. I'll try to incorporate both the ftilt and dsmash into my pressure

 

[Jagoffian]

You input up-down rapidly on the D-pad for extender.

 

[JerkPhil]

1. Samus has limited options approaching. Of course we can wavedash forward to an Ftilt or so, but a skilled player can just counter it with DD. I personally approach with missiles to cover the DD, and try to get their reaction to the missile, but that's me.

3. If you're grabbing, try to do it with the cover of a missile instead of jabs and Ftilts. If your opponent is experienced versus Samus, they know how to dodge our slow grab of 300ms.

 

[ManoxMano]

1. Sometimes I find people get so into DD'ing that I can just max WD f-tilt and they get slammed cuz they don't shield. I enjoy doing missle approaches but most of the time I feel too scared to throw an jump-MC because they feel too close, or a platform would get in my way. It's a dumb mindset I gotta get rid of.

3. Yeah that's what I usually do. I do .tea-esque set-ups like Jab>Jab>grab onto their shield

 

[ycz12]

I played a match yesterday where I took 484 damage and JV 3-stocked my opponent. Pretty funny.

To get back on the stage against Marth, you should (1) not be playing against Mew2king, and (2) mix up your ledgehop aerials with ledgehop wavedashes (in every direction) and ledgehop -> nothing. Occasionally even ledgejumping is useful, though not so much against patient Marths and Sheiks.

 

[ManoxMano]

What do you mean by ledgehopping/ledgejumping? I get confused by the ledge terms

 

[Litt]

I played a match yesterday where I took 484 damage and JV 3-stocked my opponent. Pretty funny.

To get back on the stage against Marth, you should (1) not be playing against Mew2king, and (2) mix up your ledgehop aerials with ledgehop wavedashes (in every direction) and ledgehop -> nothing. Occasionally even ledgejumping is useful, though not so much against patient Marths and Sheiks.

Lol dude who did you take 484 damage against at MM? and lets be honest... m2k doesnt play marth against samus unless you beat his sheik

 

[JerkPhil]

Ledge hop is letting go of the ledge with down or away, then jumping. Either empty to regain invisibility frames, or with an aerial jumping on to the ledge.
Ledge jump is pressing jump while hanging on the ledge. It's a real laggy move, and I think it's uses are really limited, as we already prefer being on the ground. It's sarcastically called the "tournament winner", as it's most often not done voluntarily, and is often heavy punished.
I found a really situational safe way to use it though. On the right side of the water transformation on Pokémon Stadium, the ledge jump reaches the top platform perfectly.

 

[ycz12]

Lol dude who did you take 484 damage against at MM? and lets be honest... m2k doesnt play marth against samus unless you beat his sheik

It was Tichinde's Marth, and mainly I was responding to

Enough drama, time for some real chat.
So I played friendlies with Mew2King and got absolutely rolled, but I learned a lot about my problems when I play

...

I noticed when M2K was holding back a little more, I could do a HugS or a short ledge roll (pressing up). but when he's just sitting there as Marth waiting for me to do something, I am lost. How can I get back at the stage, and maintain a standing on the stage, rather then getting pushed back out?

Oh btw the inputs for Extender are Z-Z-up-down-up-Z on the d-pad.

 

[ManoxMano]

Thanks for all the input guys.
Jerk - ledge terminology always confuses me : P
ycz12- I knew I was doing something wrong, thank you.

I'll upload some more matches the next monthly I go to.

 

[Litt]

It was Tichinde's Marth, and mainly I was responding to

Oh btw the inputs for Extender are Z-Z-up-down-up-Z on the d-pad.

Hahhaha thats awsome dude, my highest was 268 against Mr. Lemons doc like last april, ill be going to more mass tournies when I get back to Uconn, I still wanna play you! (btw how could you and Nuro lose that badly to MDZ and Tian!??! Spawn and I play them all the time in dubs)

 

[JerkPhil]

I was at 284 last tournament. A Marth timed me on Dreamland...

 

[.tea©]

So have you guys already checked out the APEX pools?

Duck's pool is so hard. :/ He already had a hard pool at EVO. Also I'm hyped to see this Japanese Samus player called PL.

 

[ManoxMano]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnG6oQq4RIU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6XrGchcBys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anj-k5u28Tw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxvJywqDfiI
Knowledge bomb.

 

[Mars-]

Hey guys, just looking through some pools for APEX here are the ones I picked out that might interest us samus players:

A8 (Oro (team ben oro?))
http://i.imgur.com/mM0XjOT.png

C3 (Darrell)
http://i.imgur.com/QdZrMPs.png

C4 (ESAM)
http://i.imgur.com/hnNQL5L.png

C5 (HugS)
http://i.imgur.com/rqwOKGw.png

D1 (Rat, plays fox now though)
http://i.imgur.com/ZMQ1cYt.png

D3 (Plup)
http://i.imgur.com/Ovd0BBd.png

AND LAST BUT CERTAINLY NOT LEAST:

C1
Best samus aka black samus aka DA's samus aka cali hater aka cali anti-christ idicka and ken killer aka h2yl killer aka the man who showed his balls and will do it aka spike king aka beast aka nine stock rapest aka money snatcher
http://i.imgur.com/Av152Yx.png

I might have missed some people but if you guys want to look through the pools they are here:
http://imgur.com/a/Hd0vt#0

 

[.tea©]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnG6oQq4RIU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6XrGchcBys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anj-k5u28Tw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxvJywqDfiI
Knowledge bomb.

Haha, I meant something like "seeing him vs American players". :D

 

[Litt]

Hey guys, just looking through some pools for APEX here are the ones I picked out that might interest us samus players:

A8 (Oro (team ben oro?))
http://i.imgur.com/mM0XjOT.png

C3 (Darrell)
http://i.imgur.com/QdZrMPs.png

C4 (ESAM)
http://i.imgur.com/hnNQL5L.png

C5 (HugS)
http://i.imgur.com/rqwOKGw.png

D1 (Rat, plays fox now though)
http://i.imgur.com/ZMQ1cYt.png

D3 (Plup)
http://i.imgur.com/Ovd0BBd.png

AND LAST BUT CERTAINLY NOT LEAST:

C1
Best samus aka black samus aka DA's samus aka cali hater aka cali anti-christ idicka and ken killer aka h2yl killer aka the man who showed his balls and will do it aka spike king aka beast aka nine stock rapest aka money snatcher
http://i.imgur.com/Av152Yx.png

I might have missed some people but if you guys want to look through the pools they are here:
http://imgur.com/a/Hd0vt#0

Forgetting the best samus in pool B8... KLit im taking StriCNYN3 out in second round, just watch!!!