EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[Pi]

pretty sure marth can fair a perfectly spaced ftilt
perfectly space utilt should be ok

 

[bubbaking]

Yep, I agree that Marth can fair the ftilt 'cause it's definitely happened to me, but I didn't want to say anything in case it was just me and my scrubbiness. I mean, we're -18 when we hit his shield, so it stands to reason that a far-reaching fast aerial can hit us. Most characters have around 14 frames to hit us with anything (18 - 4 frame jumpsquat), but it's our range that saves us. Utilt's got that range and safety.

Also, what are people's thoughts on CC ftilt? Never really thought much of it, but ftilt is just as fast as dtilt and dsmash and is much safer on block. It's also not too hard to go from a crouch into a dangled ftilt (still weird, though). Is it worth trying out further?

 

[Bing]

CC ftilt does sound like a good idea. If it has the same frame usage then its definitely worth a shot.

 

[Pi]

ftilt is like 7 frames
dsmash/dtilt are 4 or 5

it would probably be good/better if ur cc is getting beat by spaced attacks

also i think fox can wavedash shine perfect spaced ftilt too, so gg

 

[bubbaking]

[collapse=Frame data]

F Tilt

Total: 31
Hit: 6-8
IASA: 30

Hit lag: 5
Shield stun: 11
Advantage: -17 or -18
-------------------------------------
D Tilt

Total: 39
Hit: 6-8

Hit lag: 6
Shield stun: 14
Advantage: -25
-------------------------------------
D Smash

Total: 48
Hit: 6-8, 14-16
Charge frame: 3
IASA: 45

--Front hit--
Hit lag: 7
Shield stun: 16
Advantage: -29

--Rear hit--
Hit lag: 7
Shield stun: 15
Advantage: -22

[/collapse]

They hit on the same frame, and going by frame advantage, ftilt is the safest of the three options. It's just probably harder to do out of a CC than either dtilt or dsmash. That and it doesn't kill/send offstage like dsmash does or set up combos like dtilt does. If this was feasible, it would strictly be for the spacing and safety aspects of the move. For instance, perhaps CC ftilt could be used to hit Marth after CCing a move that was spaced too far out for dtilt/dsmash to be able to punish. This is all just speculation, of course, but it's something that I think might hold merit. I'm just really bad at testing this kind of stuff out, 'cause I'm a scrub.

 

[Pi]

eh, was pretty sure superdoodlemans data was diff but this looks convincing
but it also looks like ftilt's first frame or two is only on the inside of the thigh which wouldn't be very effective
even so a couple frames slower isn't much, use when applicable

 

[Corigames]

I was ****ing around last night and found that on YS you can grab the ledge, drop, DJ, Walljump, Rising Grapple, ledge cancel. Aside from vs Marth (or even so), this gives an option to go above and around people edge guarding. Unlike when doing a ledgehop, you can also mix up how high and how far you want to go (Ledge cancel on either side of the platform for instance). You can add further mix-up by doing it earlier or later in the Walljump, either immediately after pressing away, waiting for the peak, or anywhere in between.

The problem is that Samus is floaty and she's in the air for a while, you need to have the grapple saved which means not using it on your recovery, and for the other person to whiff a move or not see it coming to really get back on the stage. Though you can decide to cancel on the left of right of the platform, I feel some characters/players could easily react due to floatyness.

Useful or worthless?

 

[iRobinhoood]

Provide video please. Or I guess a butchered Microsoft Paint flow chart could suffice.

 

[bubbaking]

Actually a video would be awesome! But yeah, Samus' floatiness kinda makes this a liability if the Marth is being aware. I would probably like this more against the spacees or Falcon or something, but Marth is balls....

 

[ycz12]

I've been having a lot of success with grapple > walljump > u-air on the lower walls of Battlefield and FD recently. There are enough hitboxes to hit an opponent on the ledge almost no matter when they refresh invincibility, and it'll hit people through the floor of Battlefield. If you save your second jump you can jump > waveland > d-smash/u-tilt/B/whatever afterwards and it's great.

 

[bubbaking]

That's pretty cool!

I've also been working on some grapple tech, though it's nowhere as spectacular as what you guys have been cooking up. Nintendude alerted me to some tech that Duck used during a tourney to gimp a Fox (I think it was Chillin) who was trying to edgehog him after he didn't sweetspot a tether. He WJ > upB'd immediately and knocked the Fox off the ledge, edghogging him immediately after. I found myself in a very similar position against a Fox a couple days ago at a fest I was at, so I tried it out. I'm less confident in my skills, so I didn't actually hit him with it, but I faked him out and managed to avoid a gimp.

 

[ThePrime]

ive seen duck pull out the instant up-b out of walljump too its a cool mixup when you miss a sweetspot.

Ill try that uair trick too ycz12

been messing with jab turnaround pivot jab mixups on shield. It's a nifty timing to punish shield grab attempts from your first jab. It's more of the maneuver than the timing tho. Just been messing around in lab im gonna try it in some friendlies when i can.

 

[ycz12]

I don't really like grapple walljump into up-B that much... the walljump momentum sends you away from the stage, so your only option is to grab the edge. That means if your opponent happened to do something safe, like get up or ledgehop, then they get a free edgehog. It is certainly faster than any other option, which makes it good against a Fox angling for a shinespike. Just watch out for ledge invincibility...

Without a double jump, I generally prefer walljump > b-air (or Charge Shot ) if they're on the stage and walljump > airdodge if they're on the ledge with invincibilibility.

 

[Bing]

You know, its the simple things with Samus that I really enjoy, like bair to immediate charge shot, or how I 4 stocked a Ganon in Just under a minute on Dreamland by baiting him to the ledge, back throw dair.

 

[ThePrime]

I mean its something you arent doing as a routine recovery. Most of the time you're doing it cuz they have the ledge and you know you will pop up and get attacked so you do it if you think theyre going to attack up. It's the gamble of it all that makes it useful but not something you should do a lot. Ideally, yeah, id prefer to do other things but obviously your opponent forces you to think on your feet.

 

[bubbaking]

I don't really like grapple walljump into up-B that much... the walljump momentum sends you away from the stage, so your only option is to grab the edge. That means if your opponent happened to do something safe, like get up or ledgehop, then they get a free edgehog. It is certainly faster than any other option, which makes it good against a Fox angling for a shinespike. Just watch out for ledge invincibility...

Well first of all, when Duck did it, he upB'd IMMEDIATELY out of the WJ. You could barely even catch a glimpse of the WJ; it looked almost as if he'd just upB'd straight out of the tether. Due to this, I actually think he could have landed on the stage if he really needed to, but the main point is that he was in a bad position under a Fox on the ledge. It was a quick, risky mix-up and it netted him Fox's stock.

I mean its something you arent doing as a routine recovery. Most of the time you're doing it cuz they have the ledge and you know you will pop up and get attacked so you do it if you think theyre going to attack up. It's the gamble of it all that makes it useful but not something you should do a lot. Ideally, yeah, id prefer to do other things but obviously your opponent forces you to think on your feet.

Pretty much this. It was a Fox. He was liable to be shine spiked if he didn't do that. Something to keep in mind is that both the WJ and upB have invincibility, and I believe the WJ invincibility ties perfectly into the frame 1 upB invincibility.

 

[iRobinhoood]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the new layout sucks.

 

[ycz12]

Try the Neo Blue theme, it's a lot more readable.

 

[iRobinhoood]

#NeoBlueORdie

 

[bubbaking]

So I managed to steal KK's analysis of the Sheik:Samus MU from Sheik's POV:

Against Samus you just d-throw uair and never let her come down.



Okay, now the fluff on the Samus matchup. Since you guys like fluff. Samus's game on defense mostly revolves around WD back into normals, shield, and crouch counterattacks. Suffice to say, Samus obviously likes the ground. Fortunately, her ground game sucks vs Sheik. In terms of ground vs. air, Sheik's SH goes over a lot of her stuff when used properly (basically up angle f-tilt / f-smash and u-tilt hit you). And those three options can sometimes be beaten by the sheer priority, speed, and range advantage of Sheik's fair and bair so her efforts often fizzle just because Sheik's moves are literally better. In ground vs. ground, Sheik's ground game is obviously fine vs Samus's ground game if only because Sheik can out-camp her and has an enormous grab that does enormous amounts of damage. Sheik's shield is also very good against Samus's ground stuff, since Samus defends mainly with normals and they can all be grab-punished if not spaced meticulously (and even if it is spaced well, some of it is still punishable). Samus will try to counter this with grabs. However, Samus's grab is bad so you mostly just roll or jump on it if you think she's doing it or knee-jerk react to it. From there, enjoy your free throw.

Because of all these slants in design, Samus is largely a conditioning character and depends on making you tunnel vision on certain options in order to win exchanges in losing matchups. In this one, she's going to try to condition you to jump at certain times so she can out-time you and start combos off her fair and other garbage. This will require grabs on her part since jump is the obvious counter to her grab. If possible, try to find the tell for her grab attempt or recognize when she's in 'grab' mode. If you can discern that, you can avoid getting hit by her for stupid amounts of time simply because shield and proper movement out of it is too good.

We should use this opportunity to get inside Sheik's head. I know I definitely need this help.

 

[Violence]

Damn, ESAM, your missiles are so ideal. Sometimes in your games you weave this cage around your opponent and there's just nothing they can do, it's beautiful. Definitely the Samus to watch to improve missile fundamentals.

 

[bubbaking]

We just had a large regional (Xanadu Monthly) and LFs was ESAM vs M2K. ESAM is crazy!

 

[ycz12]

Yeah, props on beating Chillin. He beat me pretty bad at Xanadu over the summer.

Did you know you can grapple-walljump from the wall below the lip on Stadium? I actually did not know this.

 

[ycz12]

How do people feel about, at ~60% against Fox/Falco, doing u-throw to weak nair, anticipating that they'll DI in into another nair/dair/Charge Shot? I find it's pretty effective near the edge of the stage, especially considering it'll send them further offstage than a single hit would.

 

[bubbaking]

Would a flat-out Charge Shot kill? I know uthrow combos straight into Charged Shot on the spacees.

 

[ycz12]

Er, yeah, if you have a Charge Shot you can probably just use that. I was mainly thinking of the nair to nair possibility.

 

[Violence]

Darrell does this all the time, it's even better when you weak nair onto a platform, this unlocks utilt and uangled fsmash as well.

 

[ycz12]

Ooh, that sounds fun. Gonna try that out.

 

[GunPunch]

Just watched Esam's matches. Beautiful. Had some good moments against m2k too. But then m2k had to go all... well, m2k against him.

 

[Violence]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ONh7MIVfkA&t=14m55s

Technology.

 

[bubbaking]

Darrell does this all the time, it's even better when you weak nair onto a platform, this unlocks utilt and uangled fsmash as well.

I remember seeing Darrel dthrow > nair > Charged Shot a Jiggs before as a rest punish.

 

[GrilledCheese]

Does anyone have any advice/ information for the Samus vs Pikachu MU?

 

[bubbaking]

Uhhh, the best Pika I've ever played was Dkuo's Pika. I don't really know much about that MU. I just play it like I play generic defensive Samus MUs. Camp a lot. Keep him out with tilts. I try to gimp his recovery with utilt, but if the Pika is good at sweetspotting, this will rarely work. Watch out for usmash. It's close to Fox power and it's almost just as fast, so make sure not to mis-space attacks on his shield. Watch out for Thunder if you're recovering high or you've just been usmashed at high %'s. SDI out of dsmash. If the Pika likes to spam a lot of FH Thunderjolt, you can try to dash under the jolt trajectory and hit him. This is all really basic stuff, but I don't know what else to tell you. From the few games we played, I won most of the time against dkuo, but to be honest and fair, neither of us had much experience against the other side of the MU.

Edit: Ben lurkin' this thread, lolz...

 

[Violence]

I remember seeing Darrel dthrow > nair > Charged Shot a Jiggs before as a rest punish.

You should see my rest punish... before it got removed from Twitch.tv by the guy who it got performed on.

Jiggs whiffs rest on the main platform of DL64, horizontally between the left platform and center platform, I have a full charge shot. I walk him until he's just under the left platform, full jump, bomb, so that the bomb stays on the platform, but I fall off to the right, not landing on the platform, around a character length from Jiggs.

Utilt, sends Jiggs straight up into the bomb, charge shot.

 

[Violence]

Does anyone have any advice/ information for the Samus vs Pikachu MU?

Ok, so, cc the nair into dsmash, it's hard for him to approach you, so he'll probably spam thundershocks. Your missiles are better. Try to lay off utilt, fast attacks are best to avoid getting hit by Pika's uair or nair approaches. Treat him like a Fox when he's grounded, and like a Sheik when he's airborne on stage.

The way I like to edgeguard is to bomb over the edge and utilt to cover the onstage up B timing. If he goes for the sweetspot, he hits the bomb and gets hit by your slightly late utilt, if he goes on stage, the utilt catches him.

 

[iRobinhoood]

Ok, so, cc the nair into dsmash, it's hard for him to approach you, so he'll probably spam thundershocks. Your missiles are better. Try to lay off utilt, fast attacks are best to avoid getting hit by Pika's uair or nair approaches. Treat him like a Fox when he's grounded, and like a Sheik when he's airborne on stage.

The way I like to edgeguard is to bomb over the edge and utilt to cover the onstage up B timing. If he goes for the sweetspot, he hits the bomb and gets hit by your slightly late utilt, if he goes on stage, the utilt catches him.

Will be added to the Pika section of the Samus Index Thread. Good post.

 

[ycz12]

How does the short hop homing missile onto Battlefield platforms work? I tried it like 50 times today and didn't get a single one.

 

[iRobinhoood]

Battlefield is double jump missiles. Unless homing missiles require a different execution.

 

[Pluplue]

You have to missile as soon as you leave the ground for the battle field weak missile. Esam taught me dat one

 

[bubbaking]

With a short hop?