Violence
Smash Lord
You haven't played Mango...
Just... don't rely on your shield against that son of a *****'s Fox or Falco. Trust me.
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EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)
- Thread starter Pi
- Start date
Just... don't rely on your shield against that son of a *****'s Fox or Falco. Trust me.
Violence
Smash Lord
Actually, **** that, lemme elaborate.
UpBooS is one of the most basic techniques for a Samus, and utilizing it against space animals is exceedingly important.
The basic idea is that when your move ends, you are back in standing position faster than your opponent, giving you the initiative. Any kind of damage or combos you get out of UpBooS is gravy.
Now, there are plenty of situations where UpBooS will not give you the initiative, and these situations are what Fox and Falco try to set up when they attempt to play around your UpBooS.
One example: It is FD, they just pressure you, and DI away when you UpBooS. They can mash laser or wiggle out in midair, land first, and now they have initiative. It is not beneficial to Up B without an escape route or certain plan on FD.
Ok, so besides that, the Up B is an awesome option, right? Well, it is, but there are a bunch of situations that space animals can use to get around it, and some of the higher level spacies in your region will undoubtedly do this.
I've accumulated exp from BC space animals, Toph, Eggz, Silent Wolf, Mango, Lovage, Westballz, (never played Lucky), SFAT, Zhu, Kels, Reno, a bit of PP, and plenty of randoms. I'll give you the low down of what I know.
Tactic 1, The ol' bait: late aerial in, shine, wavedash back. Generally used by players who have the mindset of not wanting to straight up challenge your up B, these guys will back up safely and keep themselves out of range of your up B, content to wait outside your shield, knowing that your best OoS option is sealed off. This is very much prefered by defensive oriented players like PP, Zhu, and Kels, they will sit outside of your range and their pressure patterns are oriented around being safe. I recommend changing from UpBooS reliance to WDooS. Read their approach arcs, and don't let them hit your shield. Rather, WDooS reactively and try for a dsmash or dtilt while they're in the air. Staying feet planted will not get you anywhere. The riskier option would be to attempt to trade your up B with the approach aerial, then DI down and tech. Ballsy, but conceivable if they early aerial. Just keep your wits about you, and don't get stuck in shield against these guys. I personally like WDooS->spaced ftilt here, and if you can call them on not shielding, a WDooS->dsmash is usually backbreaking during these times, both psychologically damaging, and sets up for an edgeguard opportunity in most cases. Finally, for maximum safety, assuming they're still under a top platform, sometimes a WDooS->UpB aiming for edge cancel off of the top platform on some stages is a very safe method of disrupting their pressure tactics.
Tactic 2, Rhythmic Disruption: Usually employed by technical players who have a lot of control over their timing variability, the best example of this is Westballz shield pressure. He mixes up double shines with waveshine in place, and makes it much more difficult to come out with an up B. Again, finding a timing to WDooS here is powerful as he may shine in place once too many times, giving you an opening to counterattack with dsmash or fsmash. Alternatively, reading his change ups is also a possibility and you can still up B if you're careful, but he will wavedash out if he senses danger, so you can plan around that. Foxes will pick up on the places you want to up B and can nair shine your shield at certain rhythms that your up B attempt will fail due to shield stun. Against this, you have to know to mash up B. It's very easy to have your input fail and not recover fast enough mentally to attempt it again while the Fox nair shines you, but the opening is there, learn to spam up B in these scenarios.
Tactic 3, Favorable Trade: If you up B directly into a Falco dair, he will most likely beat your up B. If you up B directly into a Fox/Falco bair, the trade will most likely not favor you, as it's your leaving ground hitbox that has the knockback to send the space animal into hitstun, if you just trade with an aerial in midair, you will most likely not come out with initiative, especially at high percentage. Space animals will call your up B by placing aerials directly above your shield, such as Falco's auto cancel'd shbair, or a full hop Fox reverse retreating bair. They're usually escaping to a platform, while covering your up B out of shield option. In these situations, your spacing is unfavorable and you need to wavedash to respace yourself. Take the small opportunity you have while they're airborne, read their trajectory, and wavedash to a space where you can attack favorably with a rising aerial(probably fair), since they're most likely escaping to a platform safely. Don't pursue them with an UpB or a shuair out of shield(unless you're really confident about the angle at which the move will hit them), and instead look to grab superior positioning and pressure them from the center of the stage outward.
Tactic 4, Mango: Mango, and certain other space animals who are really top class at pressure, but especially Mango, will do some combination of the above three with each pressure sequence. He will cover a predictable up B always, and cover one of your wavedash options as well, however, his pressure is dynamic in such a way that you cannot beat every pressure sequence with the same out of shield action. If you watch Armada, he has to switch between an instant nair, up B out of shield, and wd back cc dsmash depending on Mango's position, approach arc, and pressure choice in order to come out on top. The most important thing is recognizing what type of pressure he's attempting to put on you, and quickly committing to an option that can beat it. Basically... play well? I don't think there's an easy solution, but as you get better and better out of shield, there isn't really a way that you can get trapped, imo. At least, at the human level, I think out of shield options trump pressure by a very little bit.
UpBooS is one of the most basic techniques for a Samus, and utilizing it against space animals is exceedingly important.
The basic idea is that when your move ends, you are back in standing position faster than your opponent, giving you the initiative. Any kind of damage or combos you get out of UpBooS is gravy.
Now, there are plenty of situations where UpBooS will not give you the initiative, and these situations are what Fox and Falco try to set up when they attempt to play around your UpBooS.
One example: It is FD, they just pressure you, and DI away when you UpBooS. They can mash laser or wiggle out in midair, land first, and now they have initiative. It is not beneficial to Up B without an escape route or certain plan on FD.
Ok, so besides that, the Up B is an awesome option, right? Well, it is, but there are a bunch of situations that space animals can use to get around it, and some of the higher level spacies in your region will undoubtedly do this.
I've accumulated exp from BC space animals, Toph, Eggz, Silent Wolf, Mango, Lovage, Westballz, (never played Lucky), SFAT, Zhu, Kels, Reno, a bit of PP, and plenty of randoms. I'll give you the low down of what I know.
Tactic 1, The ol' bait: late aerial in, shine, wavedash back. Generally used by players who have the mindset of not wanting to straight up challenge your up B, these guys will back up safely and keep themselves out of range of your up B, content to wait outside your shield, knowing that your best OoS option is sealed off. This is very much prefered by defensive oriented players like PP, Zhu, and Kels, they will sit outside of your range and their pressure patterns are oriented around being safe. I recommend changing from UpBooS reliance to WDooS. Read their approach arcs, and don't let them hit your shield. Rather, WDooS reactively and try for a dsmash or dtilt while they're in the air. Staying feet planted will not get you anywhere. The riskier option would be to attempt to trade your up B with the approach aerial, then DI down and tech. Ballsy, but conceivable if they early aerial. Just keep your wits about you, and don't get stuck in shield against these guys. I personally like WDooS->spaced ftilt here, and if you can call them on not shielding, a WDooS->dsmash is usually backbreaking during these times, both psychologically damaging, and sets up for an edgeguard opportunity in most cases. Finally, for maximum safety, assuming they're still under a top platform, sometimes a WDooS->UpB aiming for edge cancel off of the top platform on some stages is a very safe method of disrupting their pressure tactics.
Tactic 2, Rhythmic Disruption: Usually employed by technical players who have a lot of control over their timing variability, the best example of this is Westballz shield pressure. He mixes up double shines with waveshine in place, and makes it much more difficult to come out with an up B. Again, finding a timing to WDooS here is powerful as he may shine in place once too many times, giving you an opening to counterattack with dsmash or fsmash. Alternatively, reading his change ups is also a possibility and you can still up B if you're careful, but he will wavedash out if he senses danger, so you can plan around that. Foxes will pick up on the places you want to up B and can nair shine your shield at certain rhythms that your up B attempt will fail due to shield stun. Against this, you have to know to mash up B. It's very easy to have your input fail and not recover fast enough mentally to attempt it again while the Fox nair shines you, but the opening is there, learn to spam up B in these scenarios.
Tactic 3, Favorable Trade: If you up B directly into a Falco dair, he will most likely beat your up B. If you up B directly into a Fox/Falco bair, the trade will most likely not favor you, as it's your leaving ground hitbox that has the knockback to send the space animal into hitstun, if you just trade with an aerial in midair, you will most likely not come out with initiative, especially at high percentage. Space animals will call your up B by placing aerials directly above your shield, such as Falco's auto cancel'd shbair, or a full hop Fox reverse retreating bair. They're usually escaping to a platform, while covering your up B out of shield option. In these situations, your spacing is unfavorable and you need to wavedash to respace yourself. Take the small opportunity you have while they're airborne, read their trajectory, and wavedash to a space where you can attack favorably with a rising aerial(probably fair), since they're most likely escaping to a platform safely. Don't pursue them with an UpB or a shuair out of shield(unless you're really confident about the angle at which the move will hit them), and instead look to grab superior positioning and pressure them from the center of the stage outward.
Tactic 4, Mango: Mango, and certain other space animals who are really top class at pressure, but especially Mango, will do some combination of the above three with each pressure sequence. He will cover a predictable up B always, and cover one of your wavedash options as well, however, his pressure is dynamic in such a way that you cannot beat every pressure sequence with the same out of shield action. If you watch Armada, he has to switch between an instant nair, up B out of shield, and wd back cc dsmash depending on Mango's position, approach arc, and pressure choice in order to come out on top. The most important thing is recognizing what type of pressure he's attempting to put on you, and quickly committing to an option that can beat it. Basically... play well? I don't think there's an easy solution, but as you get better and better out of shield, there isn't really a way that you can get trapped, imo. At least, at the human level, I think out of shield options trump pressure by a very little bit.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I've analyzed some of Mango's shield pressure. That man is a TRUE aggro-Falco because he consciously and actively alters his aerial-shine specifics. He doesn't always use the same aerial and he varies the timings of each one. With a great mix-in of shinegrabs and waveshines and a few double-shines, his shield pressure is crazy.
Tbh, though, no one ever said you should "rely on your shield" against a spacee, because you most definitely shouldn't. If a spacee spaces a bair or something on your shield, you won't be able to punish its lag with upB, and even if they don't space it, if you aim to catch him after his shine, he can waveshine out to bait the upB. He could also shinegrab, which isn't guaranteed but is impossible to react to. Shinegrab was actually one of HugS' biggest concerns when fighting Falco.
My point still stands, however. The frame data doesn't lie. No matter what, there will ALWAYS be a hole in the spacee's shine pressure. You just don't know where that hole will be if the spacee is good, which forces you to mix-up your defensive OoS actions as much as the spacee is mixing up his offensive pressure. Still, I'd MUCH rather have Samus' upB to counter spacee pressure than a usable shieldgrab, because upB can capitalize on even a 1-frame hole. Shieldgrabs literally never work on competent spacees.
Speaking of multishines and 1-frame holes, Fox's multishines have only one frame in between each shine where the defender is not in shieldstun. As far as I know, Samus and Bowser are the ONLY characters who can escape from perfectly executed multishines because of their frame 1 invincibility. Of course, Samus and Bowser would also have to be perfect in their execution to escape through these 1-frame gaps. Falco's multishines are good, but not as good as Fox's. He gives two frames to escape, just like his tightest form of dairshine pressure, because of his increased jumpsquat duration.
Edit: This was in response to your first post, Violence. I did not see your second one while I was typing this up.
Tbh, though, no one ever said you should "rely on your shield" against a spacee, because you most definitely shouldn't. If a spacee spaces a bair or something on your shield, you won't be able to punish its lag with upB, and even if they don't space it, if you aim to catch him after his shine, he can waveshine out to bait the upB. He could also shinegrab, which isn't guaranteed but is impossible to react to. Shinegrab was actually one of HugS' biggest concerns when fighting Falco.
My point still stands, however. The frame data doesn't lie. No matter what, there will ALWAYS be a hole in the spacee's shine pressure. You just don't know where that hole will be if the spacee is good, which forces you to mix-up your defensive OoS actions as much as the spacee is mixing up his offensive pressure. Still, I'd MUCH rather have Samus' upB to counter spacee pressure than a usable shieldgrab, because upB can capitalize on even a 1-frame hole. Shieldgrabs literally never work on competent spacees.
Speaking of multishines and 1-frame holes, Fox's multishines have only one frame in between each shine where the defender is not in shieldstun. As far as I know, Samus and Bowser are the ONLY characters who can escape from perfectly executed multishines because of their frame 1 invincibility. Of course, Samus and Bowser would also have to be perfect in their execution to escape through these 1-frame gaps. Falco's multishines are good, but not as good as Fox's. He gives two frames to escape, just like his tightest form of dairshine pressure, because of his increased jumpsquat duration.
Edit: This was in response to your first post, Violence. I did not see your second one while I was typing this up.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
To be fair, I touched upon most (not all, though) of those points you made, Violence, but you elaborated on them more than I would have ever hoped to. :-O
Violence
Smash Lord
Not trying to show you up or anything, Bubba, just trying to elaborate. I think in general we agree.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Been playing what may be my best recently. Got 4th out of 8 at a local smashfest, felt good but the next day I had this drive to just make it to the top 3.
EDIT: Will post vids of me in tourney in video critique thread.
Anyone have a song that they attribute to their progress as a melee player? Or that just has a carrying feeling that fits with your samus? Here's mine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kON_KRmFRKk
Just something about that song that really gets me psyched.
EDIT: Will post vids of me in tourney in video critique thread.
Anyone have a song that they attribute to their progress as a melee player? Or that just has a carrying feeling that fits with your samus? Here's mine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kON_KRmFRKk
Just something about that song that really gets me psyched.
ManoxMano
Smash Journeyman
How I want my samus to feel like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3W_alUuFkA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3W_alUuFkA
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Guys lets talk spotdodges. I feel like I don't spotdodge enough as Samus. Would you guys say yo spotdodge on reaction more of buffer spot dodge more? Do you have specific examples of when you guys personally like to spotdodge or buffer spot dodge?
Also, buffer CC utilt to hit opponents get up attacks from the edge is awesome. Thank you Knut.
Also, buffer CC utilt to hit opponents get up attacks from the edge is awesome. Thank you Knut.
Violence
Smash Lord
Spot dodging on prediction can be a very bad idea, especially against characters like Sheik and Falcon who can punish them really hard.
I would recommend reacting with it in certain matchups, and taking care not to do it too much, because it can be punished, even though it's decently safe.
I love buffer cc Utilt, it's something that Duck first showed me. Dude buffers CC out of everything.
I would recommend reacting with it in certain matchups, and taking care not to do it too much, because it can be punished, even though it's decently safe.
I love buffer cc Utilt, it's something that Duck first showed me. Dude buffers CC out of everything.
Violence
Smash Lord
Hey guys, I've been wondering about safe counters to Falco's double laser from the ledge. I prefer to mash jab, myself, but I was wondering if you could, say shield->shnairooS as a safer option in case they start dairing?
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
I always get grabbed if I shield a double laser = (
Violence
Smash Lord
You should have frame advantage though, that doesn't really make sense. Have you tried at least up Bing out?
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
^ no lol (10 character limit)
Pluplue
Smash Ace
crouch cancel jab works almost every time unless they do it PERFECTLY and shield afterward. Then they're still in a bad spot.
vs double laser that is*
vs double laser that is*
Violence
Smash Lord
Yeah, that's what I normally do, but the thing that's been bothering me lately is when the falcos start to mixup invincible ledge hop forward b and ledge hop dair into their game. The jab can't beat all three, and the dair especially wrecks you.
That's why I was wondering if there was an action out of shield that covers Falco from the edge.
That's why I was wondering if there was an action out of shield that covers Falco from the edge.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Falco's that dair from the edge I just fsmash them. I make sure I'm within dair from the edge range, throw out a few bait tilts, then WD back and BAM, hit'm with the arm cannon. They have an invincible illusion? So if they re-grab or grab the edge quickly enough into a ledgehog illusion it's invincible? And I'm excited to start using CC jab against double lasers from the edge.
Uploading the singles matches from a recent tourney right now, hopefully I'll get through them all today and can provide a boatload of Samus video.
Uploading the singles matches from a recent tourney right now, hopefully I'll get through them all today and can provide a boatload of Samus video.
Violence
Smash Lord
iRobinhood, the problem is that it's a mixup. If you WD back, you get hit by lasers. If you cc jab, then you get beaten by ledgehop dair.
The beginning of the forward B is invincible enough that you can't hit Falco out of it before he hits you, if you're too close to the ledge.
The beginning of the forward B is invincible enough that you can't hit Falco out of it before he hits you, if you're too close to the ledge.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Gonna start spotdodging after aerials on shield and see how it works.
Edit: Had a question for you guys, when I was fooling around with the IC's a while back and question came up in general discussion about chain-grabbing in friendlies. Most said they didn't wobble but it didn't hurt to practice the hand off. Anyway I was wondering if you guys missile spam in friendlies and to what extent.
Edit: Had a question for you guys, when I was fooling around with the IC's a while back and question came up in general discussion about chain-grabbing in friendlies. Most said they didn't wobble but it didn't hurt to practice the hand off. Anyway I was wondering if you guys missile spam in friendlies and to what extent.
DarrellD
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2010
- Messages
- 527
This is where you stand back and missile. Like I told you to do, a year or two ago. Sucka foo
Violence
Smash Lord
But he can just refresh invincibility before you can shoot again, and then get up with double laser.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Like Pokemon Stadium Galaga, I've gotten pretty good at missile canceling =p
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
15 people??? f**** that I'm not moving. Galaga it is.
Also, let myself down at a tourney today. Got cocky with my Samus against a Ganon and well the Ganon put me in my place.. Got 5th out of 10 congrats to Knut for taking 2nd!
Also, let myself down at a tourney today. Got cocky with my Samus against a Ganon and well the Ganon put me in my place.. Got 5th out of 10 congrats to Knut for taking 2nd!
It makes me sad that wave bombing doesn't have a significant enough shield stun to successfully link.
Against Falco, I will sometimes prematurely UB in order to trade with the Dair. This sends the falco tumbling in a short arch and you going right to the ground. Since you know it's coming, you can tech this 100% of the time. Since he has to wait to fall through the air, he can't tech as fast; this means you are almost always at the advantage. Think of it as a way of CCing the dair, except instead of taking a blow and then punishing, the punishment IS you taking the blow. This works for me mostly when he's on a higher platform trying to move down more than it does approaches, but if he does it off a FH or DJ you can do it then too. I'm sure a lot of you have accidentally done it (premature UB), but consider it as an option when getting pressured.
Any time Falco is coming back/ledge hopping to get on the stage, firing standing missiles doesn't hurt, especially if you mix homing ones in. A smash missile will punish Falco for going horizontal with the stage, the homing will punish going for the ledge. Missiles cover options and set up the recovery game. SH homing missile, smash missile --> edge guard/hog works well for me (Do the homing first, because you need the missile to touch him BEFORE the move starts or else it will overpower it most of the time). It practically forces the Falco to go high into a predictable Dair or Air dodge or try to power through/reflect the missiles which will give you a window to edge guard him. So, basically, when you knock Falco away, SH to the ledge while firing a homing missile, land, Smash missile, pivot, edge hog. Why tell you this? Well, because the best way to NOT get ledge hop double lazor'ed is to not allow for the set-up of ledge hop double lazor.
If that fails, stand back and powershield the second lazor at least. Done. You're welcome.
Wobbles will do freeze glitches, wobbling, and trade-offs in friendlies then turn to you and say, "Get over it nerd, I'm training for EVO." Then he laughs at you. Then he plays Mr. G&W and gets 3 9's in a row. It's sad.
Also, ******* don't know about mah extennnnnnnnder. Ask Hairy Nipples
I bet he has my back on that.
Against Falco, I will sometimes prematurely UB in order to trade with the Dair. This sends the falco tumbling in a short arch and you going right to the ground. Since you know it's coming, you can tech this 100% of the time. Since he has to wait to fall through the air, he can't tech as fast; this means you are almost always at the advantage. Think of it as a way of CCing the dair, except instead of taking a blow and then punishing, the punishment IS you taking the blow. This works for me mostly when he's on a higher platform trying to move down more than it does approaches, but if he does it off a FH or DJ you can do it then too. I'm sure a lot of you have accidentally done it (premature UB), but consider it as an option when getting pressured.
Any time Falco is coming back/ledge hopping to get on the stage, firing standing missiles doesn't hurt, especially if you mix homing ones in. A smash missile will punish Falco for going horizontal with the stage, the homing will punish going for the ledge. Missiles cover options and set up the recovery game. SH homing missile, smash missile --> edge guard/hog works well for me (Do the homing first, because you need the missile to touch him BEFORE the move starts or else it will overpower it most of the time). It practically forces the Falco to go high into a predictable Dair or Air dodge or try to power through/reflect the missiles which will give you a window to edge guard him. So, basically, when you knock Falco away, SH to the ledge while firing a homing missile, land, Smash missile, pivot, edge hog. Why tell you this? Well, because the best way to NOT get ledge hop double lazor'ed is to not allow for the set-up of ledge hop double lazor.
If that fails, stand back and powershield the second lazor at least. Done. You're welcome.
Wobbles will do freeze glitches, wobbling, and trade-offs in friendlies then turn to you and say, "Get over it nerd, I'm training for EVO." Then he laughs at you. Then he plays Mr. G&W and gets 3 9's in a row. It's sad.
Also, ******* don't know about mah extennnnnnnnder. Ask Hairy Nipples
I bet he has my back on that.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Darrell looking pretty good on stream at Kings of Cali 2 right now http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/old
Violence
Smash Lord
I also didn't bracket, but it was fun meeting Cori and seeing Anto. Happy that Darrell got revenge on Okami too.
Violence
Smash Lord
I like the entirety of the:
save double jump->grapple shenanigans. Gives us a scar jump, some of those weird Sheik wall jump bair things that they do sometimes, and a few surprises, like...
bomb jump->double jump->walljump reverse missile(I call this the spaceballs because he's the one I see do it most often)->sweet spot grapple
If I hadn't seen that in your friendly vs Falcon, I would not have thought to uptilt as far out as I did in our friendlies to manage to catch it that one time.
Low riders are pretty effective against tall people with shields that don't cover their feet, I like it. I know a pretty decent method of semi consistently doing them, I should practice.
save double jump->grapple shenanigans. Gives us a scar jump, some of those weird Sheik wall jump bair things that they do sometimes, and a few surprises, like...
bomb jump->double jump->walljump reverse missile(I call this the spaceballs because he's the one I see do it most often)->sweet spot grapple
If I hadn't seen that in your friendly vs Falcon, I would not have thought to uptilt as far out as I did in our friendlies to manage to catch it that one time.
Low riders are pretty effective against tall people with shields that don't cover their feet, I like it. I know a pretty decent method of semi consistently doing them, I should practice.
ycz12
Smash Ace
I like saving double jump on FoD. It lets you do grapple -> WJ -> DJ -> WJ -> Charge Shot (-> bomb jump -> up-B), hitting ground level, from the bottom pillar.
The rising grapple cancel, I believe, is really useful. Maybe I use it more than I should which may reduce its viability, but consider the options it gives you. After initiating it, you can:
-Do an aerial. This means that instead of coming up to the ledge with an UpB you can come over the ledge with a Uair and shield stab their feet, Nair to knock them away, or a Fair to set up a combo.
-Up B. This gives you a double recovery or a way to escape to the top platform of a stage against a character like peach whom has a hard time with vertical movement. So you not only go the length of the rising grapple, but you also get the UpB boost on it too.
-Bomb. This is a mix-up for the rising grapple that stops you from coming over the edge. If you see them WD back after you start it, you can react with a bomb and go for a sweet spot UpB instead.
-Sweetspot Grab. On BF you can quickly grapple cancel and auto-sweetspot the ledge. Other stages force your tumble animation to push you away from the stage if you are close to the wall, making it much harder. I'm not sure if you can rising grapple and then control stick slam yourself out of tumble before reaching it (small window), but that might be possible.
-Missile/Charge Shot. Come over the stage and blast some fools.
-Land & Tech. Since the grapple cancel puts you into tumble, landing on the stage will make you slam into the ground. Knowing this, you can barely grapple cancel over the ledge and tech roll or stand.
I don't know, I think it's pretty tricky and I've been using it for a while. After the tournament and watching you guys play, though, I realize that I've let my actual game go down the toilet, big time. I want to do the Wavebomb stuff that Darrel was doing, which I think is awesome, because that's the kind of stuff I like. I also, inadvertently, found that Zair against a floating Peach is pretty good as long as you land it: it reaches far, can't be traded with, and will zone her floats out. I can do all these cool things and wow an audience, but still get beat when it comes to just spacing Fsmash, Ftilt, and Utilt. I really want to learn more tricky things, but I guess I need to just work on my "you're playing a competitive fighting game Cori, do smart **** not cool ****."
-Do an aerial. This means that instead of coming up to the ledge with an UpB you can come over the ledge with a Uair and shield stab their feet, Nair to knock them away, or a Fair to set up a combo.
-Up B. This gives you a double recovery or a way to escape to the top platform of a stage against a character like peach whom has a hard time with vertical movement. So you not only go the length of the rising grapple, but you also get the UpB boost on it too.
-Bomb. This is a mix-up for the rising grapple that stops you from coming over the edge. If you see them WD back after you start it, you can react with a bomb and go for a sweet spot UpB instead.
-Sweetspot Grab. On BF you can quickly grapple cancel and auto-sweetspot the ledge. Other stages force your tumble animation to push you away from the stage if you are close to the wall, making it much harder. I'm not sure if you can rising grapple and then control stick slam yourself out of tumble before reaching it (small window), but that might be possible.
-Missile/Charge Shot. Come over the stage and blast some fools.
-Land & Tech. Since the grapple cancel puts you into tumble, landing on the stage will make you slam into the ground. Knowing this, you can barely grapple cancel over the ledge and tech roll or stand.
I don't know, I think it's pretty tricky and I've been using it for a while. After the tournament and watching you guys play, though, I realize that I've let my actual game go down the toilet, big time. I want to do the Wavebomb stuff that Darrel was doing, which I think is awesome, because that's the kind of stuff I like. I also, inadvertently, found that Zair against a floating Peach is pretty good as long as you land it: it reaches far, can't be traded with, and will zone her floats out. I can do all these cool things and wow an audience, but still get beat when it comes to just spacing Fsmash, Ftilt, and Utilt. I really want to learn more tricky things, but I guess I need to just work on my "you're playing a competitive fighting game Cori, do smart **** not cool ****."
A real tricky thing I found on Battlefield I haven't seen any other Samus do is grapple beneath the ledge -> walljump -> instant Uair under the ledge -> upB to ledge/stage.
The Uair hits the opponent standing on the ledge through the stage and reverses the situation from being edgeguarded to edgeguarding yourself.
The Uair hits the opponent standing on the ledge through the stage and reverses the situation from being edgeguarded to edgeguarding yourself.
The fact that you hit them with the Uair AND have to still Up B back to the ledge makes it risky. The Uair isn't exactly the most knock-backing move in her arsenal, and hitting someone with it isn't going to mess up their edgeguard too much. In addition to that, the Uair would make your feet go through the platform, making almost any attack cause you to be stuck under the stage or get stage spiked. If you were going to risk it, I would suggest holding on to your double jump, grapple the stage, wall jump, Uair, and then DJ into a Bair or the like in order to get back on the stage. That's much faster and is a better set-up IMO.
I only use it at higher %. The opponent gets carried by the multihitting Uair. As I cancel the walljump with the Uair, I can upB very soon to reach high with upB. I know it's not very safe, but it can be rewarding. I rarely still have my DJ when grappling beneath Battlefield. Thanks for the advice!
Wobbles likes to do this thing with his G&W on BF where he lets go of the ledge, DJs under the level, Nair (the parachute), and then sweet spot Up B's to get back. In response I looked for a thing with Samus that I could do like that, and came up with what I had above (Let go of ledge, grapple, walljump from the pull-up, Uair, DJ, Bair, and land on stage OR if you miss the walljump just DJ, Uair, UpB). When practicing it, I noticed it was regularly CCed into punishment, traded with Dsmashes and Dairs causing me to die, or would set-up into nothing that benefited me. Maybe it was just me and you'll have better luck with it, but I don't think it's as good of an option as other things may be.
Violence
Smash Lord
In our friendlies, you were definitely doing the cool ****, and I was definitely barely beating you by just spacing moves.
I take like one in ten friendlies against Darrell, and it just serves as a reminder that cool **** is cool, but calm down and space more and I won't win.
Violence
Smash Lord
Also, I avoid walljump from under battlefield against anyone who has a spiking dair that reaches through the stage.
Marth, Falcon, Ganon, Samus, etc.
You can live by purposely missing the wall jump, di-ing back, and then sweet spotting with a backwards upB.
Marth, Falcon, Ganon, Samus, etc.
You can live by purposely missing the wall jump, di-ing back, and then sweet spotting with a backwards upB.