The problem with that is they can easily just edge hog you. This happens to me a lot of times, that's why I needed to come up with a mix up.
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EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)
- Thread starter Pi
- Start date
ManoxMano
Smash Journeyman
is shield grabbing a gamble as samus? I feel that if they are real close enough, then you can catch them right out of the start-up frame
ycz12
Smash Ace
Samus' grab doesn't come out until frame 18. That's enough time for your opponent to do, like, anything. Link is much better at this.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
You cans shieldgrab Peach's dash-attack.
Violence
Smash Lord
That's not a real mix up though, they can take the ledge no matter which option you choose, force you onto stage, and kill you. Marth gets a ledgedash tipper fsmash, Falcon waits for you to get onto the stage, and then reverse knees you, Ganon reverse uair spikes from the ledge, and an opposing Samus can ledgedash charge shot or fsmash or utilt.
I've been spiked there many more times than edgehogged, so I guess my mileage differs, but uairing through the ground just seems insanely unsafe.
No. No frame data stuff. How boring; imagine this:
You're on the ledge trying to recover.
You DJ up and over the ledge and then air dodge in place.
You start DIing toward the edge of the stage again as you Zair.
As soon as you ledge cancel the Zair, DJ and waveland forward and Fsmash.
Cool Stuff
-By Cori™
Now I'll win at everything forever.
You're on the ledge trying to recover.
You DJ up and over the ledge and then air dodge in place.
You start DIing toward the edge of the stage again as you Zair.
As soon as you ledge cancel the Zair, DJ and waveland forward and Fsmash.
Cool Stuff
-By Cori™
Now I'll win at everything forever.
Pluplue
Smash Ace
If you save your double jump then getting to the edge should never be a problem. Getting off the edge is a pain in the ass tho.
ycz12
Smash Ace
I think the point is that if you're forced to grapple the bottom of Battlefield, then there's no guaranteed way to recover, so you might as well switch it up from time to time and force your opponent to react. If you just drift back and up-B every time, you'll just get edgehogged every time; if you occasionally walljump to u-air or n-air or up-B, they might mess up.
Yes thank you. That was my point.
A walljump to a fast aerial (Uair) makes it possible to land on the stage even. I'd prefer to receive a hit knocking me back on the stage rather than getting edge hogged.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
After analyzing some Plup videos from Apex and recent footage of Knut from Sudden Death I realize I go for grabs way too much. Is the benefit off a grab outweigh the potential punishment? I don't think I'll ever go for a grab in the Puff MU obviously. I feel my most consistent grabs come in the Marth MU and probably Sheik as a close second. I need to tone it done a bit though against Falco, Fox, Falcon. Usmash, fsmash, and the knee make me never want to grab again.
If I see they're shielding a lot, I go for a grab some times. Especially when I'm on lower %.
Our grab hits a crouching puff waiting for a dash attack or something else to cc-rest. I find grabs useful vs grounded puffs. If they're in the air, forget it
Our grab hits a crouching puff waiting for a dash attack or something else to cc-rest. I find grabs useful vs grounded puffs. If they're in the air, forget it
I grab when I realize I'm getting shield -> punish a lot. Like, spacing an F-tilt and hitting a shield means that they are expecting a hit from that distance and aren't trying to dodge it, just react or block and then strike back. If I'm aware they are doing it, I go for more grabs. A benefit, if you can call it that, of Samus' grab is that some people will spot dodge to avoid it, but it takes so damn long to come out that you still might grab them after they come out of it. Lastly, people that stick to the ground can be punished by the extender because, as long as you are on top of it, they can't spot dodge it. You can just wait and grab them afterward (but, then again, jumping out of shield completely nulls that strategy, so proceed with caution).
I do not suggest grabbing Puff. What are you going to do out of it? D throw Nair/Dash attack? If you can perfectly time a grab on her, you can perfectly time an Fsmash or Charge blast. Reasonably go for grabs on Peach, because she doesn't have **** for punishment for that kind of stuff if you miss.
I do not suggest grabbing Puff. What are you going to do out of it? D throw Nair/Dash attack? If you can perfectly time a grab on her, you can perfectly time an Fsmash or Charge blast. Reasonably go for grabs on Peach, because she doesn't have **** for punishment for that kind of stuff if you miss.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Just to reiterate, we have an advantage on Peach's dash attacking our shields with shield grab right?
Dash attack frame data:
Total: 37
Hit: 6-20
IASA: 36
--First part--
Shield stun: 13
Shield hit lag: 6
Advantage: -22
--weak part--
Shield stun: 9
Shield hit lag: 4
Advantage: -17
Samus' first grab hitbox comes out on frame 18.
Peach's dash attack is 37 frames long with two different sets of hit boxes. If Peach hits you with the very first hit frames:
Frame 06- She hits your shield on frame 6 and puts you into Shield stun for 13 frames and she gets hit lag for 6
Frame 12- She is out of hit lag and then finishes the animation in 31 frames. You are stuck for 7
Frame 19- You are out of Shield stun, she has 24 more to go
Frame 20- You start a grab, she has 23 more to go
Frame 38- First grab hit box is out, she has 5 more to go
It would seem to me that there is a 5 frame window between getting out of shield stun and her escaping the first hit.
Peach's dash attack is 37 frames long with two different sets of hit boxes. If Peach hits you with the first of the second, weaker hit frames:
-Frame 10- She hits your shield on frame 10 and puts you in shield stun for 9 frames and she gets hit lag for 4
-Frame 14- She's out of shield lag and will finish the animation in 27 frames. You are stuck for 5
-Frame 19- You are out of Shield stun, she has 22 frames to go.
-Frame 20- You start the grab animation, she has 21 to go.
-Frame 38- First grab hit box is out, she has 3 to go.
This one is a 3 frame window, but adjust those numbers for if she hits you with the very last frame (frame 20), she would be at the advantage by 7 frames. Taking this into consideration, I'd say only grab if she hits you with the very beginning of it, not if you are getting finger-tipped. Then again, I'm intoxicated and this was difficult to type up and I may have made errors.
Total: 37
Hit: 6-20
IASA: 36
--First part--
Shield stun: 13
Shield hit lag: 6
Advantage: -22
--weak part--
Shield stun: 9
Shield hit lag: 4
Advantage: -17
Samus' first grab hitbox comes out on frame 18.
Peach's dash attack is 37 frames long with two different sets of hit boxes. If Peach hits you with the very first hit frames:
Frame 06- She hits your shield on frame 6 and puts you into Shield stun for 13 frames and she gets hit lag for 6
Frame 12- She is out of hit lag and then finishes the animation in 31 frames. You are stuck for 7
Frame 19- You are out of Shield stun, she has 24 more to go
Frame 20- You start a grab, she has 23 more to go
Frame 38- First grab hit box is out, she has 5 more to go
It would seem to me that there is a 5 frame window between getting out of shield stun and her escaping the first hit.
Peach's dash attack is 37 frames long with two different sets of hit boxes. If Peach hits you with the first of the second, weaker hit frames:
-Frame 10- She hits your shield on frame 10 and puts you in shield stun for 9 frames and she gets hit lag for 4
-Frame 14- She's out of shield lag and will finish the animation in 27 frames. You are stuck for 5
-Frame 19- You are out of Shield stun, she has 22 frames to go.
-Frame 20- You start the grab animation, she has 21 to go.
-Frame 38- First grab hit box is out, she has 3 to go.
This one is a 3 frame window, but adjust those numbers for if she hits you with the very last frame (frame 20), she would be at the advantage by 7 frames. Taking this into consideration, I'd say only grab if she hits you with the very beginning of it, not if you are getting finger-tipped. Then again, I'm intoxicated and this was difficult to type up and I may have made errors.
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
I just wanna give a shoutout to the Smash Missile winning the poll on this thread
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEQnksfJSY4 and more on the channel of Knut going ham.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTMt5qt8ynU me getting bodied ;_;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTMt5qt8ynU me getting bodied ;_;
Jagoffian
Smash Journeyman
Went to a tournament today, and got wrecked by all the falcons I played. How should I deal with overly aggressive falcons? I found myself relying on Up-B OoS way too much.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Yea it's pretty whack after we get hit into the air we're basically combo'd for a good 60%. I try to sometimes move as fast as the Falcon player and stuff their aerials when I think they're about to jump.
Upward angled F-tilt/F-smash work well for his Nair approach. Don't get trapped in your shield. If Falcon just starts spamming knees, Bairs, etc. just stand back and punch him. Never ever never ever ever never ever never ever try to Dsmash unless it's when it's impossible for him to counter. He WILL knee you if you try to Dsmash. When he's off the stage, Utilt until he's far enough away to edgehog. If he tries to go up and over, just Nair him back out. Only try to UpB OoS if you have a ledge to cancel on, or else his faster falling will lead to him getting a combo on you either with a grab, knee, or Uairs. If you get a grab, I like Up Throw Bair/Nair. When recovering, watch him to see if he's preparing a moonwalk; if he is, expect him to launch out and hit you with something. Try to stay grounded, because being above Falcon is not a happy place.
/wall of stuff
/wall of stuff
ZetTroxX
Smash Journeyman
Jagoffian
Smash Journeyman
Thanks for the advice! I've only recently switched mains, so I'm still trying to get completely comfortable with her movement and options.
Hey, I was wondering if any of you guys could help me in the expenses of going to evo. It costs a lot and I could use a hand if you could spare:
http://www.gofundme.com/2xzkmg
http://www.gofundme.com/2xzkmg
Pi
Smash Hero
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
TIL corigames is a girl, not that it matters, just saiyan.
Pi
Smash Hero
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Can we talk about Falcon again? I hate that character and love him at the same time.
Pluplue
Smash Ace
Falcon's a dummy.
-Philip Coast Philip-
Smash Ace
Two moves that work pretty great against Falcon (I swear I'm totally serious about this):
Upsmash
Rolling behind him
Try it out. Upsmash just counters a lot of his stuff, and you just have to be next to him to do it, and it pops him up if you hit him with the end part - less ending lag than utilt, and still enough time to hit him. And for some reason, rolling behind/through works against falcon's approach. Also, uair outprioritizes almost anything he has, making for a good mid-air counter or even approach, if you wanted to swing that way.
But you guys should read my post and find a way to glitch giga bowser into play, that'd be rad, because then samus would get bumped up a spot in the tier list
http://smashboards.com/threads/giga...name-entry-glitch-and-the-menu-system.336670/
video showcasing a few of the applications
Upsmash
Rolling behind him
Try it out. Upsmash just counters a lot of his stuff, and you just have to be next to him to do it, and it pops him up if you hit him with the end part - less ending lag than utilt, and still enough time to hit him. And for some reason, rolling behind/through works against falcon's approach. Also, uair outprioritizes almost anything he has, making for a good mid-air counter or even approach, if you wanted to swing that way.
But you guys should read my post and find a way to glitch giga bowser into play, that'd be rad, because then samus would get bumped up a spot in the tier list
http://smashboards.com/threads/giga...name-entry-glitch-and-the-menu-system.336670/
video showcasing a few of the applications
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
**** it, usmash and rolls it is.
Jagoffian
Smash Journeyman
Darrell told me the MU was even >_>. I have a hard time believing him.
Samus's roll is kinda balls though, and I can't see getting much mileage out of it without being punished. Up-smash seems viable if Falcon's tangled up on a platform, but it seems too committal if you're trying to read his jumps. I'd rather stick to WD -> f-tilt and the occasional nair
Samus's roll is kinda balls though, and I can't see getting much mileage out of it without being punished. Up-smash seems viable if Falcon's tangled up on a platform, but it seems too committal if you're trying to read his jumps. I'd rather stick to WD -> f-tilt and the occasional nair
Pi
Smash Hero
upsmash and rolling?
no
no
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Knut is really good at spacing knee approaches so that the Falcon's weak knee hits and he cc dsmashes the weak hit. I've been having more luck staying mobile, trying not to get hit, and just spacing my tilts a lot better. I've also come to realize that any smash attack on shield that isn't spaced well is a free knee.
.tea©
Smash Journeyman
I´m really curious what the other good Samus players think about the Peach match up. Last weekend I lost to Ares in Grand Finals, one of the best Peach players in Europe. Since we both play quite often he kind of figured out the match up. I used to **** him but he got a lot of new stuff. The match up for me seems fairly easy for Samus as long as the Peach player is not that experienced in it. I remember when Armada had close games with Rat in 2010, but now he ***** the **** out of Cyr. If you look closely, Peach counters a lot Samus´ strengths. Samus Up B out of shield gets countered by Peachs´ float cancel. Samus´ strong crouch cancel gets destroyed by Down Smash. Peach also has an easy time edgeguarding Samus. If Samus recovers high, Peach can throw turnips all day and float off stage taking space away from Samus. Likewise if Samus recovers low, Peach can cover the sweetspot with her ****ing Dair. And she can also do mix ups with Down Smash etc.. By the way how do you guys DI the Dair? Smash DI down is probably the best I guess. :/ The match up still seems winable for Samus since rockets and aerials are really strong against Peach. If a Peach doesn´t know how to space her float and jumps versus Samus she gets ****ed up. I also feel like Samus needs great mix ups if it comes down to shield pressure against an experienced Peach player. Otherwise she will always eat a Nair, turnip, grab etc..
I've given up on the match up. Peach totally counters my play style so I rely on my Sheik against Peach. Even though my Samus is much better than my Sheik, I have a much better win rate as Sheik versus Peaches.
Nice to see you on the boards .tea! You taught me how to play as Samus
Nice to see you on the boards .tea! You taught me how to play as Samus
Pi
Smash Hero
the only way to beat falcon is to first off, be BETTER than him
this would mean;
more experienced at the matchup OR
better at reading/adapting OR
better at not choking/playing gay
ALSO
FINISHING YOUR COMBO'S AND EDGEGUARDING PROPERLY
i hate the peach matchup, spam UpB OoS, missiles, and rush her floats w/ fairs is my plan,
i hate her dash attack and her fair, and her nair
this would mean;
more experienced at the matchup OR
better at reading/adapting OR
better at not choking/playing gay
ALSO
FINISHING YOUR COMBO'S AND EDGEGUARDING PROPERLY
i hate the peach matchup, spam UpB OoS, missiles, and rush her floats w/ fairs is my plan,
i hate her dash attack and her fair, and her nair
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Ive gotten more attentive to when Falcon will and will not reach the ledge which worked much better for me on my edgeguards. When Peach floats I just stuff here out with a quick nair before she has time to think.