Drephen
Smash Master
wobbles does take the fun outta the game
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EVO South Results!!!
- Thread starter Hylian
- Start date
- Status
Actually I started a movement about 3 1/2 years ago to have it banned. I lost a tourney to some guy who relied on only wobbling. They say you can get out of it at 55% and then like at 105% but after that you cant. Only way to get out of it is if the guy doing it messes up. But yeah only 2 chances to get out if done perfectly, after that your stock is gone. But yeah I wanted this thing banned about 3 years ago. Heck i think Green green should be banned cuz of fox. Actually I think Foxes infinite should be banned.
Gerbil
Smash Champion
Don't for an instant think that I find it possible to always avoid grabs, because if you do, then well... someone should help you.
I was simply giving a clean, fair backing up to Wobbles who earned his win. Did I say I agree with the method of how it was done? Absolutely not. However, it was not banned, and that provided everyone else with the same opportunity as he had. I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone, but honestly how can any of you guys bag on him for it? What's done is done, and we need to move on. Things will change, especially if the community as a whole has a problem with it. Let this one be over with, congratulate him on his victory, and move on to the next tournament. That's all we can do. It is pointless to continue about what has already happened.
I was simply giving a clean, fair backing up to Wobbles who earned his win. Did I say I agree with the method of how it was done? Absolutely not. However, it was not banned, and that provided everyone else with the same opportunity as he had. I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone, but honestly how can any of you guys bag on him for it? What's done is done, and we need to move on. Things will change, especially if the community as a whole has a problem with it. Let this one be over with, congratulate him on his victory, and move on to the next tournament. That's all we can do. It is pointless to continue about what has already happened.
YangFuShang
Smash Apprentice
so how much did he win?
Gerbil, people are mad because he keeps on using the technique even though the majority of the community frowns upon it.
Gerbil, people are mad because he keeps on using the technique even though the majority of the community frowns upon it.
KeepSpeedN
Smash Ace
wobbles, no need 2 explain urself, wobbling is anoying and gay as fuc* (sorry wobbles 
)but lets not talk about it now or even mention it on this thread, if anyone has a problem with stuff like wobbling, make a thread about it or something. u guys shouldn't talk about it over here. he won a tourney fair and square!!
now i know u guys are saying that wobbling isn't technically hard.. but u guys . what does ic's have going for them, except wobbling, and infinites?
)but lets not talk about it now or even mention it on this thread, if anyone has a problem with stuff like wobbling, make a thread about it or something. u guys shouldn't talk about it over here. he won a tourney fair and square!!now i know u guys are saying that wobbling isn't technically hard.. but u guys . what does ic's have going for them, except wobbling, and infinites?
I agree with KeepSpeedN, this really isn't the place for this kind of discussion. We already had that huge thread in Melee Discussion after NCT2.
The real question we should be asking ourselves (after offering congratulations to those who placed) is who has the videos, and when will they be released??
The real question we should be asking ourselves (after offering congratulations to those who placed) is who has the videos, and when will they be released??
PC, I have no problem with people who disagree about the fairness/unfairness of the infinite. You have an opposing viewpoint from me, that's fine. No problemo. I'm getting called gay and lame for using non-banned techniques. People are maligning my character and my skill, two things I strive to improve and take pride in. I don't think I have to sit and take it.
Galt, Evo South is not a TX tournament, it's an Evo tournament. There's a difference. And if you know the technique isn't banned there and that I'm going to attend, and if you don't want me using it on you, then I guess you've got a pretty simple choice to make.
Furthermore, I only use the infinite in tournaments where I am allowed to. If you don't want me using it, ban it. Don't expect me to go, "oh well I know they don't like it so whatevs." You should have banned it. I don't take it as offensive if you do, your tournaments and the rulesets therein are your business.
I play by the rules that are set out for me. If you think something in the rules needs changing, then do it and I'll behave by whatever rules you set.
Galt, Evo South is not a TX tournament, it's an Evo tournament. There's a difference. And if you know the technique isn't banned there and that I'm going to attend, and if you don't want me using it on you, then I guess you've got a pretty simple choice to make.
Furthermore, I only use the infinite in tournaments where I am allowed to. If you don't want me using it, ban it. Don't expect me to go, "oh well I know they don't like it so whatevs." You should have banned it. I don't take it as offensive if you do, your tournaments and the rulesets therein are your business.
I play by the rules that are set out for me. If you think something in the rules needs changing, then do it and I'll behave by whatever rules you set.
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2006
- Messages
- 6,512
I'm fairly positive that when HugS played Wobbles at NCT 2, he knew about Wobbling, and made sure not to get grabbed.
But I'll retract my statement, because its easier for certain characters to get grabbed. I play Jiggs, so its easier for me to avoid a grab :\
Watty
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2005
- Messages
- 1,638
actually Hugs was grabbed twice once at a very low percent JTB. gg good sir, wobbles will get better technically wiht more tournies, Hugs was able to win the match because even though wobbles had the infinite that was really all he was good at. Whats stopping him when he learns other things and can do it??? that is hwen there will be aproblem because it will be broken than
Galt
Smash Journeyman
For the record, I didn't go to EVO. I'm only in Austin while UT is in session. So I'm not a sore loser, or anything of the sort. Rather, I'm a proponent of fair competition. I don't care about balancing issues, like an up-smash being too powerful. I don't even care about people abusing "cheap" tactics like chaingrabbing to win. I only care when you cause your opponent to be unable to fight back, which is exactly what's going on here.
I know it's not a Texas tournament. But you do live in Texas now. And certainly we all would've liked to change the rules and ban you from the beginning, but that wasn't possible. I don't even care about the technique here; I want to know, in general, why someone who knows what he's doing is against everything but the rules insists on doing it anyway. Don't try to squirm out of my arguments on technicalities and strawmen, Wobbles. Defend yourself if you can, or forfeit my respect for you as a player. It's that simple. A lack of a rule isn't a defense; it's only an opportunity.
And for those of you saying we shouldn't complain about what has already happened, don't be absurd. Punishment is only ever justified after an act is committed.
I know it's not a Texas tournament. But you do live in Texas now. And certainly we all would've liked to change the rules and ban you from the beginning, but that wasn't possible. I don't even care about the technique here; I want to know, in general, why someone who knows what he's doing is against everything but the rules insists on doing it anyway. Don't try to squirm out of my arguments on technicalities and strawmen, Wobbles. Defend yourself if you can, or forfeit my respect for you as a player. It's that simple. A lack of a rule isn't a defense; it's only an opportunity.
And for those of you saying we shouldn't complain about what has already happened, don't be absurd. Punishment is only ever justified after an act is committed.
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2006
- Messages
- 6,512
thats right, caveman should have gone IC, but yeah back to topic.
JesusFreak: Nice meeting you, and hope i can play that sick DK soon
Gabe: thanks for fixing my controller, and teaching me the reset thing, that will help a lot
Hylian: nice teaming with you, really nice, i dont know what you were trying to do taunting like 100 times in a minute
, maybe a superchargedmissile??? (Green Samus that played me a set ^.^ ) : you are too good with samus, and if you read this, i didnt catch your nametag, but those dittos were really fun.
Kyle (mosquito
) : it was good playing your ganon on the tournament, and my english is bad, thats why sometimes you didnt understood what i was saying and good to play everyone.
MrWizard
EVO Founder
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2005
- Messages
- 67
First of all, I want to thank all of you for coming out a showing off your skills in a tournament. If any of you didn't have a great time, I take it personally and wish you will join us at another event.
Evo South was sort of like a mini Evo. We were held back by the SXSW show itself by certain conditions we had to follow. We were not allowed to charge entry to anything (making everything free) causing ALOT of people to sign up and not even show up. There was also the 6 hour cap on the event, forcing our hand to make a tournament run in the allotted time.
Without a PA system, and limited staff, we had to roll up our sleeves and do an olf fashion tournament ran off of paper. Also having over 40 smash players show up late because of the time change didnt help anything. I spent the first 90 minutes trying to figure out who was here and who wasn't.
Anyways I hope you guys had a blast, met some new people and played alot of smash. I invite you to try one of our other qualifying events and let us know if it is a big improvement.
We are currently looking at the ice climber throw infinite for tournament play. This will be decided on in the coming weeks. Also we do not seed for any tournaments other than by zipcode. This is to prevent biased tournament results and us playing God.
All comments are welcome, and if you have questions you can contact me via aim or pm on this site.
Thanks.
Joey Cuellar
Evo Tournament Coordinator
Evo South was sort of like a mini Evo. We were held back by the SXSW show itself by certain conditions we had to follow. We were not allowed to charge entry to anything (making everything free) causing ALOT of people to sign up and not even show up. There was also the 6 hour cap on the event, forcing our hand to make a tournament run in the allotted time.
Without a PA system, and limited staff, we had to roll up our sleeves and do an olf fashion tournament ran off of paper. Also having over 40 smash players show up late because of the time change didnt help anything. I spent the first 90 minutes trying to figure out who was here and who wasn't.
Anyways I hope you guys had a blast, met some new people and played alot of smash. I invite you to try one of our other qualifying events and let us know if it is a big improvement.
We are currently looking at the ice climber throw infinite for tournament play. This will be decided on in the coming weeks. Also we do not seed for any tournaments other than by zipcode. This is to prevent biased tournament results and us playing God.
All comments are welcome, and if you have questions you can contact me via aim or pm on this site.
Thanks.
Joey Cuellar
Evo Tournament Coordinator
Stryk9
Smash Journeyman
its good that evo is goona examine the wobble
doesnt belong imo
doesnt belong imo
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
True.
I also find it that people complain about it because of it's simplicity,but contrary to popular belief,the infinate is preety difficult to master,and requieres a sense of rythem with button pressing.
I'm preety sure if someone perfected the drillshine infinate and did a 0%-Death combo on the opponent,it would be the same situation,because even though people recognize it,people are still going to complain about it's cheapness or say "OMG ur gay!!" crap.
From where the wobbles infinate stands,it's just johns.
Virgo's for life!!! =D
I'm not squirming out of anything. Your argument against me was that because I know TX players would normally ban the infinite, I shouldn't have done it. My response is simply "I will use it at any tournament wherein it is not banned." Evo is its own separate league with its own separate rulesets, and those are the rules I will obey, regardless of where it's held or who attends.
The truth is I don't believe the infinite should be banned, for several reasons. Number one is that just because it's difficult to avoid doesn't mean it shouldn't be permitted. Even if the skill threshold for keeping me from performing the technique is high, that's not a reason why I shouldn't use the effective technique. If anything, it should be a reason why every player should improve to the point of keeping me from landing crucial grabs. I bet you this would not be nearly as ground-breaking a technique if each community had IC players in it. It's not even the fact that I'm using a powerful technique, it's that I'm using one people don't have practice against. Most of the people I play against are better for learning how to stay away from my grabs. I guarantee you this infinite does more good for the community than harm.
I can't just "camp and shieldgrab." That won't work against anybody of above-average skill. In my match versus Caveman, I spent a lot of time approaching HIM because he was actually able to out-camp ME. I have to be able to approach, outspace my opponent, call their appropriate moves, and keep Nana alive in order to land this infinite. In short, I need to have the timing, mindgames, and spacing necessary to land grabs without getting Nana separated from me. It requires skill to land grabs that are viable for an infinite setup, especially against an opponent with IC experience.
A lack of a rule is a defense in a game where we have so many possible options. It would be impossible to say what specifically we are allowed to do when you have 26 characters and numerous arenas. If it doesn't say I can't do it, then I have to assume that I'm allowed. There is no rule specifically allowing Fox's up-throw up-air. It is permitted because it's not forbidden. That's how rules go in a game like this. The game enforces most of its own rules, and we ban the broken stuff. Everything else is fair game, and if it isn't broken it's allowed.
I don't see how immorality comes into this. I'll tell you how MY ethics work when it comes to a tournament game: do whatever the rules allows in order to win. What I "should" and "shouldn't" do is incredibly nebulous and doesn't even belong in this discussion. What I should be concerning myself with is the best way to win. What I should do, what I believe it is my prerogative and duty to do, is whatever is allowed and necessary to win.
I'm confused as to what part of my argument you think is weak and misleading.
The truth is I don't believe the infinite should be banned, for several reasons. Number one is that just because it's difficult to avoid doesn't mean it shouldn't be permitted. Even if the skill threshold for keeping me from performing the technique is high, that's not a reason why I shouldn't use the effective technique. If anything, it should be a reason why every player should improve to the point of keeping me from landing crucial grabs. I bet you this would not be nearly as ground-breaking a technique if each community had IC players in it. It's not even the fact that I'm using a powerful technique, it's that I'm using one people don't have practice against. Most of the people I play against are better for learning how to stay away from my grabs. I guarantee you this infinite does more good for the community than harm.
I can't just "camp and shieldgrab." That won't work against anybody of above-average skill. In my match versus Caveman, I spent a lot of time approaching HIM because he was actually able to out-camp ME. I have to be able to approach, outspace my opponent, call their appropriate moves, and keep Nana alive in order to land this infinite. In short, I need to have the timing, mindgames, and spacing necessary to land grabs without getting Nana separated from me. It requires skill to land grabs that are viable for an infinite setup, especially against an opponent with IC experience.
A lack of a rule is a defense in a game where we have so many possible options. It would be impossible to say what specifically we are allowed to do when you have 26 characters and numerous arenas. If it doesn't say I can't do it, then I have to assume that I'm allowed. There is no rule specifically allowing Fox's up-throw up-air. It is permitted because it's not forbidden. That's how rules go in a game like this. The game enforces most of its own rules, and we ban the broken stuff. Everything else is fair game, and if it isn't broken it's allowed.
I don't see how immorality comes into this. I'll tell you how MY ethics work when it comes to a tournament game: do whatever the rules allows in order to win. What I "should" and "shouldn't" do is incredibly nebulous and doesn't even belong in this discussion. What I should be concerning myself with is the best way to win. What I should do, what I believe it is my prerogative and duty to do, is whatever is allowed and necessary to win.
I'm confused as to what part of my argument you think is weak and misleading.
LunInSpectra
Smash Lord
I read a lot of Sirlin's articles (Playing to win articles) and followed his philosophies--I respect it and I respect Wobbles. But after a while, playing to win didn't leave me feeling as awesome as I had always put it up to be. Taking advantage of legal techniques that got me the win (money) didn't feel as rewarding as playing on a different level.
I mean a different level as in, a different mindset. Wobble's mindset is to take advantage of all the legal strategies to win. I don't know if he has fun with it (winning can be fun), but I am sure I did not enjoy it. Many people would feel sour after getting infinited by me in some way--my happiness isn't worth someone's misery.
Sure one would be sad they lost to me, but if they lost to me in a way they felt was cheap, it'd be different. What would define cheapness? There was a similar debate I hear about, it went something like this:
"There is no absolute justification of what pornography is, but I know it when I see it".
I work on the level other players work on: trickery/movement/tech-skill/knowledge, I get my satisfaction through it.
I mean a different level as in, a different mindset. Wobble's mindset is to take advantage of all the legal strategies to win. I don't know if he has fun with it (winning can be fun), but I am sure I did not enjoy it. Many people would feel sour after getting infinited by me in some way--my happiness isn't worth someone's misery.
Sure one would be sad they lost to me, but if they lost to me in a way they felt was cheap, it'd be different. What would define cheapness? There was a similar debate I hear about, it went something like this:
"There is no absolute justification of what pornography is, but I know it when I see it".
I work on the level other players work on: trickery/movement/tech-skill/knowledge, I get my satisfaction through it.
HipHopSpam
Smash Apprentice
Personally, I hate wobbling. HOWEVER, its not like its changing the rankings that much. Chu is ranked top 10 and will beat 97-98% of the competition at a tournament anyway. If anyone else saw KDJ **** his IC's at Caty, they would realize that the real competition for "Wobbles" is amongst the top players. At that point in time, wobbling wouldn't be enough because it'd make his game ONE-DIMENSIONAL. So, my advice to those who complain is to learn how to space yourself and understand that all Ice Climbers do are wave dash forward and backwards hoping to get the grab or a downsmash. BTW, short hopping = death to IC's.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
wobbling is gayishy
Drephen
Smash Master
wobbles does take the fun outta the game
BigRick
Smash Master
lol at Drephen's posts, is he using a spam bot?
And I don't think that the EVO staff will ban Wobbling, cause many other EVO games have their own ''infinites'' or ''uber gay move'' and they're not banned...
- Magneto infinite (MvC2)
- Yun's Genei-Jin loops (SF3)
- A-Sakura's shield breaker upper (CvS2)
- and more...
If SSBM has its own gay tactic, we'll actually look better in the eyes of the fighting game community!
DO NOT BAN WOBBLING!!!
And I don't think that the EVO staff will ban Wobbling, cause many other EVO games have their own ''infinites'' or ''uber gay move'' and they're not banned...
- Magneto infinite (MvC2)
- Yun's Genei-Jin loops (SF3)
- A-Sakura's shield breaker upper (CvS2)
- and more...
If SSBM has its own gay tactic, we'll actually look better in the eyes of the fighting game community!
DO NOT BAN WOBBLING!!!
Droly
Smash Ace
I'm wobbles I wobble errrrrr.....I'm not fun to play with!!!!!!
lol you all are noobs lke tourneys arn't for lik fun they teh for teh m$$$ys
woobles is prolly the most boring person to play with in friendlies I wouldn't even play with him
lol you all are noobs lke tourneys arn't for lik fun they teh for teh m$$$ys
woobles is prolly the most boring person to play with in friendlies I wouldn't even play with him
`Jammin' Jobus
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2006
- Messages
- 489
if your playing games with the attitude of absolutly finding the easiest way win everytime regardless of enjoying the competition or having fun, you should reevaluate the reason your playing games
Galt
Smash Journeyman
Wobbles, you living in Texas was not the main part of my argument. It was just one facet. I actually gave you several reasons why the infinite should be banned, and compared it to other things which are banned. I don't mean to say you shouldn't do it because some people say you shouldn't do it; I'm not a pansy, and I'm not afraid to say that you're doing something which is not good. What I mean to say is that there are legitimate reasons for why it should be banned, and these are the things you disregard. These are the things which keep the absence of a law from equating to a right. I do think that if there were any more people out there making a practice of infiniting their way through tournaments, it would've been banned ages ago, and it looks as though just you will be enough for it to be banned shortly.
I remember at WtyM2 last year, when you beat ProudLikeCow (then a top Texas player) with the infinite, and that was my first exposure. It was obvious to the people who watched the match that BJ was the better player, but you won anyway. I don't like that at all, but I understand that it happens, because no player is perfect and luck is always a factor. I don't hold it against you that you beat someone I would consider to be a better player. I do, however, take exception to your method. I think this might've been the impetus for Texas beginning to ban the infinite.
Playing to win is great. I encourage it. Do your best. I don't care about how easy a character is to play, or a particular technique to execute. I just care about creating a fair playing field, on which the best player will probably win. That's what you're upsetting. I do think it is different from Fox's drill-shine infinite. I think it is in no way similar to Fox's up-throw to up-air combo, out of which any character can DI at any percent with practice. I think these things are perhaps *nearly* unfair, but in the end, they just give Fox a serious advantage. You can't eliminate advantages without making every character exactly the same in every way, so I don't worry about that. It's also why I'm not overly fond of the idea of releasing patches for Brawl.
Why do I bring in the idea of morality? Because you're responsible for your actions, not the ruleset. I expect you to think about what you're doing. And I think plenty of players have been discouraged from implementing the infinite for just that very reason. They know they could win, but they don't think it's fair, they wouldn't want to have to fight against it, and they probably assume it would be banned quickly.
Edit: One last thing. If you've thought about it and don't think it should be banned, then I can't really blame you for doing what you thought was right. I do, however, hope you'll do your best to convince me why I shouldn't blame you in similar future situations. I'm fully willing to allow mistakes of judgment, whether on your part or on mine. My purpose isn't to go after you, but to expose the basis of why anyone would or should use this technique. Maybe they're right; maybe the discussion should be moved to a separate thread, but I don't think that's really important.
I remember at WtyM2 last year, when you beat ProudLikeCow (then a top Texas player) with the infinite, and that was my first exposure. It was obvious to the people who watched the match that BJ was the better player, but you won anyway. I don't like that at all, but I understand that it happens, because no player is perfect and luck is always a factor. I don't hold it against you that you beat someone I would consider to be a better player. I do, however, take exception to your method. I think this might've been the impetus for Texas beginning to ban the infinite.
Playing to win is great. I encourage it. Do your best. I don't care about how easy a character is to play, or a particular technique to execute. I just care about creating a fair playing field, on which the best player will probably win. That's what you're upsetting. I do think it is different from Fox's drill-shine infinite. I think it is in no way similar to Fox's up-throw to up-air combo, out of which any character can DI at any percent with practice. I think these things are perhaps *nearly* unfair, but in the end, they just give Fox a serious advantage. You can't eliminate advantages without making every character exactly the same in every way, so I don't worry about that. It's also why I'm not overly fond of the idea of releasing patches for Brawl.
Why do I bring in the idea of morality? Because you're responsible for your actions, not the ruleset. I expect you to think about what you're doing. And I think plenty of players have been discouraged from implementing the infinite for just that very reason. They know they could win, but they don't think it's fair, they wouldn't want to have to fight against it, and they probably assume it would be banned quickly.
Edit: One last thing. If you've thought about it and don't think it should be banned, then I can't really blame you for doing what you thought was right. I do, however, hope you'll do your best to convince me why I shouldn't blame you in similar future situations. I'm fully willing to allow mistakes of judgment, whether on your part or on mine. My purpose isn't to go after you, but to expose the basis of why anyone would or should use this technique. Maybe they're right; maybe the discussion should be moved to a separate thread, but I don't think that's really important.
Sizzle
I paint controllers
LOL at the guy who said Rob wouldn't be fun to play in friendlies. He is a humorous guy and is a lot of fun to play. I hate the fact that people judge him without ever meeting/playing him.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Wobbling is noob **** and should be banned as it was obviously not intended
Miharu
Smash Hero
You can't really use that argument. I'm sure waveshining wasn't intended. Is it banned? No, not really. I don't think SHLing was intended either.
We really shouldn't bash on Wobbles for using wobbling as a technique to win. Sure, I agree with a lot of people that wobbling is pretty gay, but there's really nothing wrong with using it if it isn't prohibited by the ruleset. The game really doesn't decide who wins based on who plays the most "fairly" or "honorably", but rather who has 1 stock (or more), and who has 0.
If you have ethical issues concerning Wobbles' gameplay, take it up with him in PMs, or just create another topic for the sake of discussing the legitimacy of wobbling as a tourney-legal technique. I applaud Wobbles for being able to keep a level head and stick to his arguments even though he undergoes unnecessarily harsh and unneeded criticism for his style of gameplay.
Bash the method, not the player using the method.
Here is exactly why I don't think it should be banned.
As the skill of the players increases, the infinite becomes increasingly less likely to overcome a large skill deficit. Yes, BJ was a better player, but he was not at a skill level (or had mastered the techniques) where his skill could overcome the technique. If you compare that to Taj, who is also a better player than me, or HugS, they are at a higher level of skill and beat me by fairly large margins frequently. Or you can look at Chu versus Azen and Isai. In fact, Chu defeated Isai more frequently BEFORE he used the infinite. How can we explain that if the infinite is supposed to severely imbalance the playing field? I don't believe that they are super-ultra-tremendously better than Chu; I believe they were better, but their level of skill is such that the deficit can't be overcome by a single technique.
I'll agree that this technique makes the game unbalanced at lower levels of play. I am not at a top tier of skill and much of the time my opponents aren't either, so I wind up winning because I have the superior technique. Even if I become as good as Chu, something I strongly hope to achieve, then I still can wind up losing to people like KDJ, Ken, Isai, and Azen in serious tournaments.
How did I beat Caveman, who IS at that top tier level? Well, I've gotten a lot better recently, which helped. More importantly though, this technique is not very kind to people who don't have experience against IC's. If you make a mistake, it costs you dearly and you don't have much time to figure out your errors. If he DID play against me with ANY kind of regularity though, I guarantee you the outcome would have been much different. In fact, if it had been double elim, Caveman's such a strong player I don't doubt he would have had me on the ropes in any following sets we may have played. I got lucky, and I have no problem admitting it.
So yes, the infinite does help me beat people I couldn't beat without it. I used to claim that I anybody I beat with it, I could beat without it. But that's ridiculous, and I was foolish for saying that. If you remove the most powerful weapon from my arsenal, I would have to be prodigously better than my opponent to still defeat them and I'm not so arrogant (now) to think I'm that good.
People have been over this before, but let's look at the conditions for the infinite to occur: I need to land a grab with Nana close by, and you have to be at a low enough percent for me to start it without you escaping.
So the answer is not "don't get grabbed," because yes, that's pretty **** harsh. Essentially we'd be saying "be perfect," and if utter perfection was the only way to avoid it, then yes, it would be broken. But the real answer is "fight the IC's as you are supposed to." If you can't keep the IC's separated, and if you don't have proficiency in eliminating Nana, then you are going to lose regardless.
Also, I don't have a problem fighting against the infinite, and I have on numerous occasions. I find it challenging and exciting. Admittedly, I don't like watching my stock slowly seep away, but that's just incentive to improve.
I brought up the up-throw up-air not because it's anything remotely like the infinite, but just as an example of something that is permitted because it's not expressly forbidden. Shinespikes are not forbidden, therefore you are allowed to do them. Chaingrabs are not forbidden, team infinites are not forbidden. Therefore, you are allowed. The absence of a ban is equivalent to saying "do this if you feel like it."
Edit: Somebody above me mentions that I keep a level head and the first part of my post is name-calling. I feel silly. Rude remarks removed, even though they were pretty funny.
As the skill of the players increases, the infinite becomes increasingly less likely to overcome a large skill deficit. Yes, BJ was a better player, but he was not at a skill level (or had mastered the techniques) where his skill could overcome the technique. If you compare that to Taj, who is also a better player than me, or HugS, they are at a higher level of skill and beat me by fairly large margins frequently. Or you can look at Chu versus Azen and Isai. In fact, Chu defeated Isai more frequently BEFORE he used the infinite. How can we explain that if the infinite is supposed to severely imbalance the playing field? I don't believe that they are super-ultra-tremendously better than Chu; I believe they were better, but their level of skill is such that the deficit can't be overcome by a single technique.
I'll agree that this technique makes the game unbalanced at lower levels of play. I am not at a top tier of skill and much of the time my opponents aren't either, so I wind up winning because I have the superior technique. Even if I become as good as Chu, something I strongly hope to achieve, then I still can wind up losing to people like KDJ, Ken, Isai, and Azen in serious tournaments.
How did I beat Caveman, who IS at that top tier level? Well, I've gotten a lot better recently, which helped. More importantly though, this technique is not very kind to people who don't have experience against IC's. If you make a mistake, it costs you dearly and you don't have much time to figure out your errors. If he DID play against me with ANY kind of regularity though, I guarantee you the outcome would have been much different. In fact, if it had been double elim, Caveman's such a strong player I don't doubt he would have had me on the ropes in any following sets we may have played. I got lucky, and I have no problem admitting it.
So yes, the infinite does help me beat people I couldn't beat without it. I used to claim that I anybody I beat with it, I could beat without it. But that's ridiculous, and I was foolish for saying that. If you remove the most powerful weapon from my arsenal, I would have to be prodigously better than my opponent to still defeat them and I'm not so arrogant (now) to think I'm that good.
People have been over this before, but let's look at the conditions for the infinite to occur: I need to land a grab with Nana close by, and you have to be at a low enough percent for me to start it without you escaping.
So the answer is not "don't get grabbed," because yes, that's pretty **** harsh. Essentially we'd be saying "be perfect," and if utter perfection was the only way to avoid it, then yes, it would be broken. But the real answer is "fight the IC's as you are supposed to." If you can't keep the IC's separated, and if you don't have proficiency in eliminating Nana, then you are going to lose regardless.
Also, I don't have a problem fighting against the infinite, and I have on numerous occasions. I find it challenging and exciting. Admittedly, I don't like watching my stock slowly seep away, but that's just incentive to improve.
I brought up the up-throw up-air not because it's anything remotely like the infinite, but just as an example of something that is permitted because it's not expressly forbidden. Shinespikes are not forbidden, therefore you are allowed to do them. Chaingrabs are not forbidden, team infinites are not forbidden. Therefore, you are allowed. The absence of a ban is equivalent to saying "do this if you feel like it."
Edit: Somebody above me mentions that I keep a level head and the first part of my post is name-calling. I feel silly. Rude remarks removed, even though they were pretty funny.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Waveshining and wobbling are not comparable, as waveshining benefits the depth of the game and is not gamebreaking.
SHLing wasn't intended? Fast falling is, and so are short hops. It's not abusing any physics at all.
Yes, the game doesn't care whether you're extremely gay or not, but it shouldn't be allowed as it is gamebreaking. It ruins the fun and what this game is all about.
The rulesets allow it, but they are inherently mistaken. Your argument is that "since we were noobs back in the day and allowed wobbling, it shouldn't be immoral or unethical to continue to abuse it as we grow more and more aware of the gayness of this "technique" (if you want to call it that)".
Ban it for good and we won't ever have to hear about it again.
Delorted: he was adressing the part of your post saying "it was not intended." Intent of the designers is not something we should concern ourselves with: effect on gameplay is.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I know that. And I'm still saying they aren't comparable.
We as the community are to blame for not banning it when it was first discovered. We let it fester and grow into some abomination of gayness.
We as the community are to blame for not banning it when it was first discovered. We let it fester and grow into some abomination of gayness.
Ahem: This is a repost of what I posted waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when; when he made his first appearance as "Wobbles" and people *****ed about the tilt infinite. Excuse me if you've heard this before. Everything after the long line of Asterisks, is my post.
***********************************************************************
'kay; lemme start by saying this:
Wobbles/Blind/Honorbound/Rob is by far one of the coolest smashers ever. I dare any of you to call him an *******.
secondly, I'd like to say that Rob is definitely deserving of his spot up there. I can personally attest to his skill. Not just with ICs, who he can play EXTREMELY well, in terms of just chain grabs, general de-synchs. It might be worth knowing that he plays an excellent fox as well. Feel free to play against it. Same goes for his other characters (I happen to like Falcon dittos with him).
Honestly, the biggest problem people seem to have is that it's "too easy".
They talk about doing it in training mode, or against their friends.
Just a hint, it's not as easy when you play against people who are actively trying to avoid it.
Try doing it for a few months against those friends. They'll figure out how to get around it. Just like I did. Just like Taj and Forward did. Hell, even Hugo got around it pretty quickly, although admittedly I'd be willing to bet that samus' screw attack, bombs, and homing missiles are all a large portion of screwing nana over, making the infinite very difficult to pull off. Yes, it's difficult. The actual execution is pretty easy once you get it started... that much Rob himself has told me on multiple occasions. However, I've been notified on MANY MANY occasions how difficult and frustrating it is to get grabs on people; especially ganons, peaches, links, roys, and skilled space animals, and certain other types of characters.
Yes, many characters are very dependent on their shields. This isn't an excuse to ban the infinite.
Yes, people are potentially killed off of one grab. This is also not an excuse. Remember: this is ONE STOCK. Ever played... oh, about a BAJILLION of the fighting games out there? A stock is 1/4th of your game. There's a LOT of games that have combos that do more than 50% of your life. Many times even quite a bit more.
Oh right, and just so you guys know...
The tournaments that Rob attends in Arizona have banned the infinite, as per Rob's request.
At the previous tournament, Rob also defeated Zelgadis without the aid of the infinite and took first.
Consider that.
********************************************************************
Obviously, that last line isn't accurate in time frame anymore, though he did in fact defeat Zelgadis without the infinite at that tournament.
Kay; now this next one is to anyone that wants to bash on Wobbles; also posted in the same thread after people got all defensive about their stance. Same deal as before; long line of asterisks.
****************************************************************
to whoever said I sounded like I was attacking people:
I was.
I was attacking each and every person who boo'd my good friend at a tournament where he decided to play a game that he loves, that you all love.
I was attacking every *** hole that called him names, and degraded him simply because they can't deal with the fact that they lost to a better player.
Screw each and every one of you who even THOUGHT about putting in a bad word on Rob because you're so **** shortsighted that you can't look past it all and see a person who plays this game with more passion, intensity, and frequency than most people will ever know about. You know nothing about Rob, and you know nothing about what a kind, and fun person he is.
As for the IC infinite, I don't honestly care whether it gets banned or not; it's just a set of rules.
But to everyone at NCT2 that boo'd a fellow smash player because you didn't like how he played:
**** YOU.
********************************************************************
Peace out.
EDIT: Also, this might be constructive to have. Same deal again. Asterisks, etc....
*********************************************************************
It's been said before, and it'll be said again:
Don't get grabbed when nana is upright, taking no action, and is standing next to popo.
If nana is dead, off the stage, on the ground, in the air, or doing another attack, the infinite fails.
Yes, just playing not to get grabbed sucks. It's very doable. Just as Taj said - he does it on a regular basis with MEWTWO. If you're being grabbed while playing someone like Fox, or Samus, maybe even Peach... you're losing because you've made mistakes, and the IC player is punishing you for it.
A familiar scenario:
Marth f-smashes, IC's shield. WD outta shield, and punish with tilt infinite for a stock.
This happens to me a lot. Playing Rob's ICs is an exercise in frustration. My solution? Play safer. I know he can punish my f-smash. He's done it a million times. So I DON'T FORWARD SMASH WHEN I CAN SEE PLAINLY THAT HIS NANA IS STANDING THERE WAITING TO TILT ME WHILE HE HAS ME GRABBED.
Situations where it's okay to f-smash:
When he's above me on a platform.
When Nana jumps, or does an attack for some reason.
When I've killed, or knocked Nana into the air.
When he spot-dodges or rolls very predictably.
Honestly, if you're having difficulties avoiding the infinite, your difficulties are FAR more fundamental than you may believe - to be perfectly honest, Rob more often than not ends up killing me with a b-air than he does with the infinite. It's there at all times, and it's always looming... but it's not the only tool in his repertoire.
*********************************************************************
k; now peace out for REAL this time.
***********************************************************************
'kay; lemme start by saying this:
Wobbles/Blind/Honorbound/Rob is by far one of the coolest smashers ever. I dare any of you to call him an *******.
secondly, I'd like to say that Rob is definitely deserving of his spot up there. I can personally attest to his skill. Not just with ICs, who he can play EXTREMELY well, in terms of just chain grabs, general de-synchs. It might be worth knowing that he plays an excellent fox as well. Feel free to play against it. Same goes for his other characters (I happen to like Falcon dittos with him).
Honestly, the biggest problem people seem to have is that it's "too easy".
They talk about doing it in training mode, or against their friends.
Just a hint, it's not as easy when you play against people who are actively trying to avoid it.
Try doing it for a few months against those friends. They'll figure out how to get around it. Just like I did. Just like Taj and Forward did. Hell, even Hugo got around it pretty quickly, although admittedly I'd be willing to bet that samus' screw attack, bombs, and homing missiles are all a large portion of screwing nana over, making the infinite very difficult to pull off. Yes, it's difficult. The actual execution is pretty easy once you get it started... that much Rob himself has told me on multiple occasions. However, I've been notified on MANY MANY occasions how difficult and frustrating it is to get grabs on people; especially ganons, peaches, links, roys, and skilled space animals, and certain other types of characters.
Yes, many characters are very dependent on their shields. This isn't an excuse to ban the infinite.
Yes, people are potentially killed off of one grab. This is also not an excuse. Remember: this is ONE STOCK. Ever played... oh, about a BAJILLION of the fighting games out there? A stock is 1/4th of your game. There's a LOT of games that have combos that do more than 50% of your life. Many times even quite a bit more.
Oh right, and just so you guys know...
The tournaments that Rob attends in Arizona have banned the infinite, as per Rob's request.
At the previous tournament, Rob also defeated Zelgadis without the aid of the infinite and took first.
Consider that.
********************************************************************
Obviously, that last line isn't accurate in time frame anymore, though he did in fact defeat Zelgadis without the infinite at that tournament.
Kay; now this next one is to anyone that wants to bash on Wobbles; also posted in the same thread after people got all defensive about their stance. Same deal as before; long line of asterisks.
****************************************************************
to whoever said I sounded like I was attacking people:
I was.
I was attacking each and every person who boo'd my good friend at a tournament where he decided to play a game that he loves, that you all love.
I was attacking every *** hole that called him names, and degraded him simply because they can't deal with the fact that they lost to a better player.
Screw each and every one of you who even THOUGHT about putting in a bad word on Rob because you're so **** shortsighted that you can't look past it all and see a person who plays this game with more passion, intensity, and frequency than most people will ever know about. You know nothing about Rob, and you know nothing about what a kind, and fun person he is.
As for the IC infinite, I don't honestly care whether it gets banned or not; it's just a set of rules.
But to everyone at NCT2 that boo'd a fellow smash player because you didn't like how he played:
**** YOU.
********************************************************************
Peace out.
EDIT: Also, this might be constructive to have. Same deal again. Asterisks, etc....
*********************************************************************
It's been said before, and it'll be said again:
Don't get grabbed when nana is upright, taking no action, and is standing next to popo.
If nana is dead, off the stage, on the ground, in the air, or doing another attack, the infinite fails.
Yes, just playing not to get grabbed sucks. It's very doable. Just as Taj said - he does it on a regular basis with MEWTWO. If you're being grabbed while playing someone like Fox, or Samus, maybe even Peach... you're losing because you've made mistakes, and the IC player is punishing you for it.
A familiar scenario:
Marth f-smashes, IC's shield. WD outta shield, and punish with tilt infinite for a stock.
This happens to me a lot. Playing Rob's ICs is an exercise in frustration. My solution? Play safer. I know he can punish my f-smash. He's done it a million times. So I DON'T FORWARD SMASH WHEN I CAN SEE PLAINLY THAT HIS NANA IS STANDING THERE WAITING TO TILT ME WHILE HE HAS ME GRABBED.
Situations where it's okay to f-smash:
When he's above me on a platform.
When Nana jumps, or does an attack for some reason.
When I've killed, or knocked Nana into the air.
When he spot-dodges or rolls very predictably.
Honestly, if you're having difficulties avoiding the infinite, your difficulties are FAR more fundamental than you may believe - to be perfectly honest, Rob more often than not ends up killing me with a b-air than he does with the infinite. It's there at all times, and it's always looming... but it's not the only tool in his repertoire.
*********************************************************************
k; now peace out for REAL this time.
This logic is ridiculous. If something becomes worse, then it's MORE likely to be banned, not less.
The simple truth is that the Wobbles does NOT give the ICs an unfair advantage, and this has been proven so far several times over. Certainly it's an extremely powerful technique, but almost everyone agrees that ICs are NOT the best in the game even with the Wobbles. So why ban it? It's simply not unfair.
I can't argue against people who say it takes the fun out of the game. That's their opinion, and I can't change that. I will say, however, that tournaments aren't about who has the most fun.
killafox
Smash Lord
**finally sees this thread lol**
who da *** is woobles? lol, sorry wobbles (but i dont know u). and how did he beat rob$? if its in the thread, im too lazy to look through it. so...fill me in. and stop gettin at wobbles for some "gay technique" (that i dont kow about lol). wat is it like grabbing wit ICs then hit them wit nana and popo alternatively? (if it is, thats gay) but still, just find ways of bot gettin caught by it. just like when ken found out about chaingrabbing, PC and other people found out how to not get caught by it and escape it also.
are all evos for smash gonna be like that? im goin to evo east since i live in NY.
(POST NOT INTENDED FOR OFFENSE)
who da *** is woobles? lol, sorry wobbles (but i dont know u). and how did he beat rob$? if its in the thread, im too lazy to look through it. so...fill me in. and stop gettin at wobbles for some "gay technique" (that i dont kow about lol). wat is it like grabbing wit ICs then hit them wit nana and popo alternatively? (if it is, thats gay) but still, just find ways of bot gettin caught by it. just like when ken found out about chaingrabbing, PC and other people found out how to not get caught by it and escape it also.
are all evos for smash gonna be like that? im goin to evo east since i live in NY.
(POST NOT INTENDED FOR OFFENSE)
in account of the infinite you can say there aren't much notable achievements accomplished by using the infinite. wobble's most notable win is over caveman (correct me if i'm wrong)which doesn't have experience facing it, and Chu dat doesn't win every tourny he attends even though his skill is so high and he placed so high without using it that with a broken technique, he should be winning them with ease.
anyway, according to what I read:
128 people * 10$ *70/100 percent = 896$
so that leaves 256$ for caveman, and 128$ for DoH
anyway, according to what I read:
128 people * 10$ *70/100 percent = 896$
so that leaves 256$ for caveman, and 128$ for DoH
Actually, there was no entry fee because it was thrown together at the last minute and sponsored by Toyota. The pot was a flat 1000 - I got 700, Caveman got 200, and DoH got 100.
Killafox, I'm not terribly offended that you don't know about any of the events going on, but you make a post pretty much bragging about that lack of knowledge and then try to argue anyhow. On top of that, you pretty much tell the people who've been debating in the thread that we need to accomodate your laziness. So... as a personal favor to me, please don't do that.
Killafox, I'm not terribly offended that you don't know about any of the events going on, but you make a post pretty much bragging about that lack of knowledge and then try to argue anyhow. On top of that, you pretty much tell the people who've been debating in the thread that we need to accomodate your laziness. So... as a personal favor to me, please don't do that.
xTOXNx
Smash Apprentice
Wow. I guess that was a while ago but thats really low. Seriously that one of the worst things you could do to someone. Ill give it to wobbles for not letting it get to him. I seriously hope if he does do the wobble at a future evo event (im not saying it should be allowed or banned.) That people dont boo because last time I checked when a certain gaming community did that they got kicked out of the gaming league.
I stopped watching the finals between Caveman and Wobbles because they were boring >_>... I love when KKK played though..that was the highlight of Evo..A kirby player beating the second best peach in texas then Rob$ then a really good fox >_>..but then he lost to wobbles.
Wobbles really is a cool guy I was talking to him during the tournament but I never got a chance to play him...AustinRC's IC's could wobble lol and when I played against them in friendlys my samus ***** >_> but wobbles is a much better IC's and I want to see how my samus does. Wobbling will probably be banned from now on in texas tournaments I don't know if Evo will though.
Wobbles really is a cool guy I was talking to him during the tournament but I never got a chance to play him...AustinRC's IC's could wobble lol and when I played against them in friendlys my samus ***** >_> but wobbles is a much better IC's and I want to see how my samus does. Wobbling will probably be banned from now on in texas tournaments I don't know if Evo will though.
Dopey
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2005
- Messages
- 1,927
wobbles everything you say is meaningless, no one wants to hear your side of the story, your an IC thats need to go beyond the regular chain grabs that i guess arent good enough, to basically an infinite vs every character in the game that u just have to press A to do, you dont understand that yet i guess. you trying to defend your wobbles is like someone defending sheik chain grabbing in a ditto. if u cant see that, then gg =/
im not attacking you, or where u live, or your friends, just the way u play makes this game a little bit sadder in the end for everyone.
im not attacking you, or where u live, or your friends, just the way u play makes this game a little bit sadder in the end for everyone.
- Status