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EVO 2013 Melee Info Dump! - FINAL DAY: TOP 8 STARTING AT NOON: http://www.twitch.tv/srkevo1

KishPrime

King of the Ship of Fools
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 22, 2003
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Indiana
I dunno about you guys but I saw Wobbles with a ton of innovation and creativity, especially in the Puff matchup.

Wobbles is one of my favorite players, for reference, but I still thought there was as much capitalization on mistakes as anything, though I'm not definitely not willing to die for that opinion and am willing to concede your point. That said, if he's quitting like I read (which is hopefully false), then we're talking one step forward, two steps back. It's one thing for a player to come up with it, and it's another to have a player who can actually implement it. There are a ton of things that each top player does with their character that other players just don't have the talent/skill/experience to execute. And the meta hardly revolves around the Jiggs/IC matchup to begin with.

My main point is that we should hope for some new players out of Evo. A fresh infusion of more diverse talent would do the meta some good, especially if it's with a new character Axe/Shroomed style. Even if we don't get them, still a great game to watch.
 

shadrach kabango

Banned via Warnings
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Dec 8, 2011
Messages
1,414
Location
SoCal
I think you've probably been called out well enough here, but I'll just also say that your statements, while some are factually correct, go one step too far into "I understand things way better than you kids, so peace out." Your last line in particular. We can't speak to your personal life, but self-elevation on your way out the door is a little unrefined.
It's my opinion. My well-trained eye that has been watching and competing since 2006. Obviously it's a subjective, nebulous gray area. I don't particularly care if you agree or disagree with me, though, at least with regards to the last line.

That it's highly addictive? I can back that up easily. Not nebulous at all.

That doesn't have to reduce or negate people's enjoyment of the experience - it's not like sports don't have extremely slow "meta" changes. People still enjoy them for the skill on display and the competition involved.
My post applied to no one but myself. I'm not here to impinge on anyone else's enjoyment. It was a therapeutic post for me.

And I feel the same way about all sports. I was a big sports fan for much of my life. Don't care anymore. It's childish imo. Soap opera for men. Life has much bigger and better to offer.

I disagree that Mango wasn't dominant on Sunday.

... It was hardly camping (don't think it was ever more than 3 lasers), but it did exactly what it needed to do - it prevented Armada from simply countering his moves and forced him into an unwise attacking position on Fox.
To me, the difference is that Armada was maybe 80% of his prior peak, if that.

It's not new to me that a focused Mango is significantly better than every other player. We know that. It's whether a focused Mango could topple a peak Armada. Armada proved over and over that it doesn't really matter how focused Mango is; Armada is much better. But Armada quit and wasn't remotely close to peak Armada, and now never will be again, because this game is brutally unforgiving.

It's a huge drop in talent/skill and it left me that much more uninterested in the tournament/scene as a whole. -shrugs-


Well, I admittedly tend to be rather sharp in my replies to stuff I consider to be stupid, because I can't be bothered to be nice all the time and I don't like lying to people in general. it's the Internet
Fixed your post.

Maybe I'm even a bit hung up on semantics here. "Solved" is the word I (and tons of people with a decent background in mathematics or more specific game theory) would use for connect four or sth. where we have a distinct way to always win, which is mathematically proven to be undefeatable.
With Melee? No way. Why are there different approaches to the same character if there would be a clearly superior stye? Why is there any discussion on how to handle situations, if we know eveything already? Hell, most of us don't even know the entire "rules" to the game yet (e.g. discovering stuff like shieldstop pivots / shield drops / whatever).
You're just being pedantic. Don't take it so literally.

Pseudo-intellectual debate isn't going to change how I feel about the game. So what's the point? Who cares?

Do you feel special saying this?
No.
 

Xyzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
2,170
Location
Gensokyan Embassy, Munich, Germany
Fixed your post.
For the record: I'm exactly like that when directly talking to people. I don't necessarily let people know if I don't like them too much, but if I think they are talking non-sense, I'm calling them out then and there... Kinda because that's what I want people to do when I do it as well; no point in running around with wrong facts, if it can be helped with a easy "you're probably wrong about that, because: [...]".

You're just being pedantic. Don't take it so literally.

Pseudo-intellectual debate isn't going to change how I feel about the game. So what's the point? Who cares?
I don't want you to change your opinion on anything. And I'm not being pedantic there, you're either a) factually wrong, or b) using a non-standard definition of a word. I can't read your mind, so you'll have to tell me what you meant by "melee being solved" if you're interested in "meeting halfway" or whatever. If you're talking about the metagame not undergoing huge shifts anymore, well... I agree with that. I don't agree with the game being uninteresting for that reason, because there's still so many different things left to explore, and thinking about different playstyles, why they work and what somebody else would've done in a given situation is rather fascinating to me (and helps me getting better I think... Not getting stuck on "this works, I'll go with it" but rather a more fluid "can I still improve on it?" way of handling things ... :D)
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
5,518
Location
Columbus, Ohio
This is entirely productive.

Why not make a blog about your opinions where people can discuss there, shadrach kabango? I believe we have a specific portion of the site just for this.
 

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
To me, the difference is that Armada was maybe 80% of his prior peak, if that.

It's not new to me that a focused Mango is significantly better than every other player. We know that. It's whether a focused Mango could topple a peak Armada. Armada proved over and over that it doesn't really matter how focused Mango is; Armada is much better. But Armada quit and wasn't remotely close to peak Armada, and now never will be again, because this game is brutally unforgiving.

It's a huge drop in talent/skill and it left me that much more uninterested in the tournament/scene as a whole. -shrugs-
Armada retired 6 months ago, he beat Mango harder than he has ever beaten him 4 months into his retirement (beast 3). 2 months later (at evo), Mango had the definitive advantage. I find it far more likely that Mango improved as opposed to Armada getting worse. If the latter were true, it should have already taken affect prior to evo.

With that said, I did think that the top 8 was generally atypical of traditional melee top level play. There was a lot of rushed punishes and delayed reactions. It seemed like the pressure was causing everyone to play at 80%. However, Mango's 80% was MUCH better than everyone else's 80%.
 

strawhats

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2009
Messages
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Bronx
@Kishprime: I have a feeling that ground breaking innovation(comprable to axe/shroomed's accomplishments) will come from Japan...was very impressed with aMsa's Yoshi play. I hear he's only been playing for about a year now.
 

shadrach kabango

Banned via Warnings
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Dec 8, 2011
Messages
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For the record: I'm exactly like that when directly talking to people. I don't necessarily let people know if I don't like them too much, but if I think they are talking non-sense, I'm calling them out then and there... Kinda because that's what I want people to do when I do it as well; no point in running around with wrong facts, if it can be helped with a easy "you're probably wrong about that, because: [...]".
You don't get any credit from me. I made many points in my initial post. You are zeroing in on one. So are you implicitly agreeing with the rest of my post?

I don't want you to change your opinion on anything. And I'm not being pedantic there, you're either a) factually wrong, or b) using a non-standard definition of a word. I can't read your mind, so you'll have to tell me what you meant by "melee being solved" if you're interested in "meeting halfway" or whatever.
I said "all but solved." You're not even quoting me properly.

So actually you are the one who is "factually wrong."

Armada retired 6 months ago, he beat Mango harder than he has ever beaten him 4 months into his retirement (beast 3).
PAL.


With that said, I did think that the top 8 was generally atypical of traditional melee top level play. There was a lot of rushed punishes and delayed reactions. It seemed like the pressure was causing everyone to play at 80%. However, Mango's 80% was MUCH better than everyone else's 80%.
Word.

This is entirely productive.

Why not make a blog about your opinions where people can discuss there, shadrach kabango? I believe we have a specific portion of the site just for this.
I have a blog. I don't discuss Smash.

http://adamcmadison.wordpress.com
 

Naota21t

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
2,507
Location
The Bay Area, CA
BTW if a fox exists that can beat mango's fox it's probably sfat so iunno how him having a close set to zac can see as something horrible. Just cuz you body someone years ago doesn't mean ****, you should know best.
 

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
The differences would have hardly influenced the outcome. There could have been some instances where the matches might have been closer, but not enough to prove that Armada still wasn't better than Mango at that time.

Also, even though Armada retired, its not like he put the controller down. Sure, his drive to improve stagnated, but he was definitely playing so its very unlikely he deviated far from the pinnacle of his skill. There really isn't any evidence he got worse.

Plus, Armada looked very salty at evo... not the look of someone who anticipated failure.

So then you agree that Mango is better than Armada?
 

Xyzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
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Location
Gensokyan Embassy, Munich, Germany
You don't get any credit from me. I made many points in my initial post. You are zeroing in on one. So are you implicitly agreeing with the rest of my post?
I don't want any credit from you. Just clearing up some misconception you seem to have/had about me, because I don't feel like leaving something standing that suggests I'd flame people for the heck of it, which is simply not true (well at least rather rare, and they do have to post stupid stuff to deliver attacking material)
Also: I am not necessarily agreeing/disagreeing with the rest of your post; I'm mostly ignoring it, because I didn't see anything other I felt like correcting / discussing.

I said "all but solved." You're not even quoting me properly.

So actually you are the one who is "factually wrong."
Yeah, I misread that, sorry. So it's definitely more on the discussion side of things rather then the "you're certainly wrong". (also: apparently I wasn't the only to misread your post, though... not that this mattered or anything ;) ). Well, I don't think melee is even remotely close to the point, where we could determine optimal play in any situation, so I'm still disagreeing... but we're certainly entering an at least somewhat fuzzy territory here.
For me to call something "all but solved", we would definitely at least have to have a good idea about what the optimal gameplan in neutral position of the relevant matchups is, and how to convert any advantage you've achieved in it. And I think melee has a far too complex set of rules and decisions under uncertainty, that we could ever reach that point.
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
Joined
Jul 18, 2002
Messages
11,263
Location
Cinnaminson (southwest NJ 5 min drive from Philly)
Can someone give me suggestions on not choking XD

I am actually being very serious. I feel like my hands weren't working correctly on Sunday and I've never had this happen so badly that I can remember in my life. I am considering headphones or music or... idk.. I don't know lol. But i think I can win big tournaments like Evo if it was not for this happening and I don't know how to not make it happen.
 

TKD+ITA+Mar=

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
951
Location
San Diego
M2K, I'd highly recommend you read Wobbles' blog: http://www.compete-complete.com/ I don't think every single post applies to you, but he really goes in depth about the mentality of competition and of improvement, and I feel like there might be a lot to learn from there. Especially when one considers how much Wobbles' has improved both in terms of mindset and results lately.
Actually, everyone should read that blog, it's seriously amazing.

Edit: You have some of the most advanced knowledge and ability in the entire game, but you'll never be able to show it if you're head isn't in the right place while competing. :(
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Lots of players that have problems concentrating on the game because of the audience watching in other fighting games often put headphones on that are either directly hooked up to the TV or have music going in them. I'd recommend trying that out once, M2K, and see how it goes. You'll never know if you can perform well with direct game audio in your ears or music in your ears unless you try it.

For some people, it doesn't work and makes them perform worse lol.
 

shadrach kabango

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Dec 8, 2011
Messages
1,414
Location
SoCal
I don't want any credit from you. Just clearing up some misconception you seem to have/had about me, because I don't feel like leaving something standing that suggests I'd flame people for the heck of it, which is simply not true (well at least rather rare, and they do have to post stupid stuff to deliver attacking material)
Also: I am not necessarily agreeing/disagreeing with the rest of your post; I'm mostly ignoring it, because I didn't see anything other I felt like correcting / discussing.
I didn't have any conception, mis or otherwise. Nor do I care as to your motive.

It just didn't do you any favors. "Hey, this is how I am: I am really blunt and honest, but only when I see something to be critical about! I don't praise."

Can someone give me suggestions on not choking XD
Meditate. Any and all spiritual exercise. Yoga, visualization techniques, and so on.

http://www.amazon.com/Choke-Secrets...374010208&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=choke+bailock
 

Tarv

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 16, 2012
Messages
425
Location
Outside of Pittsburgh
Mew2king, if I can make a suggestion you could try meditating briefly before a match. Not saying that you need to reach enlightenment right then and there or anything but just give yourself a chance to calm your mind. Don't think about being nervous or worrying about whether or not you're going to choke just relax and focus. You need to put all that other stuff out of your mind for the match (the crowd, the money, etc etc.) it's just you and the game.

Secondly, I think you need to learn how to play "in the present" so to speak. So many times I've seen you mess up an edgeguard or SD and it just ruins your entire performance which makes me think that you spend way too much time dwelling on those mistakes. After the match is when you should go back and scrutinize your performance because focusing on that one mistake is really destroying your chances of winning. For example at Evo after you SD with Sheik you should've been able to tell yourself, "ok that's in the past, there's nothing I can do about it and dwelling on it is just going to effect my gameplay in a negative manner" It sounds strange but I think you need to focus on what's happening "now" rather than on what "just happened".

Third, you need to be confident in yourself. The difference in your ability compared to when you're feeling confident and when you aren't is just astounding. Every time you play hbox I feel like you give up on yourself before the match and you don't play nearly as well as you could be. It drives me nuts when you give up on yourself. It's a 4 stock game, and I think you've been playing long enough to know that so until the announcer yells "Game!" you still have a chance of winning. I'm not saying that you need to become arrogant or whatever I'm just saying that believing in yourself goes a long way.


On a completely different level, some people just have trouble with their nerves no matter how they adjust their thought process. In this I suggest seeing a therapist or talking to a medical professional about dealing with stress or anxiety. Before you do, at least consider trying my aforementioned ideas.

Of course, seeing that I'm a nobody feel free to ignore me and just use headphones or whatever. Hope you get to the bottom of this though.
 

strawhats

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2009
Messages
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Bronx
Can someone give me suggestions on not choking XD

I am actually being very serious. I feel like my hands weren't working correctly on Sunday and I've never had this happen so badly that I can remember in my life. I am considering headphones or music or... idk.. I don't know lol. But i think I can win big tournaments like Evo if it was not for this happening and I don't know how to not make it happen.
think positive...i feel like whenever you go into a set against someone like hbox you kind of place a mental block on yourself before the match even starts. Music for sure can help sometimes...I think meditation is also a good idea. Think positive vibes man.
 

Sedda

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Messages
2,393
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Luigi sucks
Can someone give me suggestions on not choking XD

I am actually being very serious. I feel like my hands weren't working correctly on Sunday and I've never had this happen so badly that I can remember in my life. I am considering headphones or music or... idk.. I don't know lol. But i think I can win big tournaments like Evo if it was not for this happening and I don't know how to not make it happen.
Are you taking that job at Nintendo for real? That might actually help with your nerves.

Taking on new challenges could be all you need really. Even if you've gone through different challenges in Melee/Brawl, they've all been under the umbrella of smash/ same tournament scene. Try getting into something else that you might be nervous about, and once you get better at that, all of your past challenges will be less stressful as long as you've kept up with them in some way.
You also need to find a perfect balance between performing well and just having fun, with just a bit more of the "fun" part. I'm a musician, and you can't hope to be the best always. After a while you realize that being the best is impossible, because you and I know there isn't one right way to play the game. You'll always be nervous, but go for "it" (your goal) anyway. No fear.
 

Naota21t

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
2,507
Location
The Bay Area, CA
No one answer neighborhood p until he pays ppl those 800 dollars he owes ppl that he gave 3:1 odds on armada.

You think deactivating facebook will hide your sneak ****. Silly.
 

Pawls to the Wall

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 2, 2010
Messages
235
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____Houston, Texas____ Posts: 1,071 +
Can someone give me suggestions on not choking XD

I am actually being very serious. I feel like my hands weren't working correctly on Sunday and I've never had this happen so badly that I can remember in my life. I am considering headphones or music or... idk.. I don't know lol. But i think I can win big tournaments like Evo if it was not for this happening and I don't know how to not make it happen.
I very strongly suggest that you make sure you don't have a slight tremor in your hands. That would easily lead to these strange "hands aren't working" feelings. It's not super obvious, but has a huge detrimental effect on your gameplay if you have the affliction. Look throughout the day to see if you can find tremors, especially during stressful situations. Some people are more prone to neurological problems like that for unknown reasons. I saw a doctor, he confirmed essential tremor, and prescribed propranolol, a beta-blocker typically used for blood pressure. My hands have never been steady, so I've never known what I was missing until recently.
 

Lovage

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 15, 2007
Messages
6,746
Location
STANKONIA CA
I didn't have any conception, mis or otherwise. Nor do I care as to your motive.

It just didn't do you any favors. "Hey, this is how I am: I am really blunt and honest, but only when I see something to be critical about! I don't praise."


yo adam, just wondering, are you planning on paying people out for those evo sidebets you made? i'm wondering cuz if you aren't planning on paying johnny for that 300 then i need to give him some more gas money for that trip ROFL
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Can someone give me suggestions on not choking XD

I am actually being very serious. I feel like my hands weren't working correctly on Sunday and I've never had this happen so badly that I can remember in my life. I am considering headphones or music or... idk.. I don't know lol. But i think I can win big tournaments like Evo if it was not for this happening and I don't know how to not make it happen.

1. stop playing characters other than sheik. yes jigglypuff is gay, but i think you can handle the rest. stop playing marth, and stop playing fox. they aren't doing you any favors, at least not in singles.

2. do things to help you enjoy the game more. even if you can't do it for tournament matches, do throw-away matches with people that like you like when we played last time with pokeballs or play weird stage or something. playing with atypical settings will keep your mind sharp and prevent you from playing on autopilot, even if your autopilot is very good it's not where you want to be. more importantly, it will help you relax. i could tell you to relax but forcing yourself to do it is very hard and hardly practical. enjoying the game with people that you like will relax you naturally, even if you have to do it between sets.

3. play with your friends sitting next to you. even if you can't talk to them because you need to focus, being surrounded by people that think highly of you will put you in a better environment to help you relax more. if you can't find anyone like that, i'll sit next to you at least for east coast nationals. i'll keep you from getting too stressed out.

4.practice. like actually practice. i know how you are vs how you used to be, mr "how do i beat zhu without practicing".
 

Iron Dragon

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
1,239
Location
Arizona
post just to say that armada definitely played off. when the guy who normally hits 100% of his edge guards doesnt hit 100% and doesnt max punish where he normally does thats how you know hes playing off etc etc. but hopefully i didnt have to explain that for people to actually realize it. i think like P stated that it was pretty evident that most people played bad at one point or another. hbox wasn't in tip top form in general, wobbles played a lot clunkier in GF than other sets, armada was off the whole time, PP was sharp at some points but then at others he wasn't at all.

while some of it is obviously nerves, it baffles me that people can think that one tournament discredits everything a player did in the time that they cared about the game.
 

KishPrime

King of the Ship of Fools
BRoomer
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Jun 22, 2003
Messages
7,739
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Indiana
I think if the tournament had been played in its entirety on Saturday, PP would've had a great shot of taking it. Not sure if it was the stage or just normal fluctuations in performance, but he looked waaaaay better on Saturday. Conversely, Mango looked like a completely different player on Sunday in a good way.

The thing with multi-day tournaments is that you will get some of that fluctuation, especially with young people who aren't especially accustomed to maintaining routines. Always interesting to see who stays the most consistent.
 

shadrach kabango

Banned via Warnings
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Dec 8, 2011
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yo adam, just wondering, are you planning on paying people out for those evo sidebets you made? i'm wondering cuz if you aren't planning on paying johnny for that 300 then i need to give him some more gas money for that trip ROFL
Hmm? I messaged him before Evo asking him to cancel it. Never got a response. Maybe he just never saw it. Up to him if he wants to cancel or not. I just hit him up.

@Naota,

As usual you have no idea what you're talking about. Ignore list.
 

Naota21t

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
2,507
Location
The Bay Area, CA
Interesting how my one statement is enough to just go straight onto the ignore list while you're happy to talk outta your ass to everyone else.

Everyone knows your full of **** Adam, I dont know why you keep trying.
 

RedyBz

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 18, 2009
Messages
69
Location
Canada
post just to say that armada definitely played off. when the guy who normally hits 100% of his edge guards doesnt hit 100% and doesnt max punish where he normally does thats how you know hes playing off etc etc. but hopefully i didnt have to explain that for people to actually realize it. i think like P stated that it was pretty evident that most people played bad at one point or another. hbox wasn't in tip top form in general, wobbles played a lot clunkier in GF than other sets, armada was off the whole time, PP was sharp at some points but then at others he wasn't at all.
All I heard are painful excuses. I'd say it's more of the fact Dr.PP and Mango were too good that they made him look ''bad'', doesn't mean in anyway he wasn't playing at his 100%. Idc what you say but dr pp was just too good that set, its no wonder that he won. Did you saw the first stock he did on Armada in the first fight? If so, you'd knew he was about to get ****ed, PP was completely on another level there.


while some of it is obviously nerves, it baffles me that people can think that one tournament discredits everything a player did in the time that they cared about the game.
Lol, ''that one tournament''...you mean the biggest melee tournament of all time and was twice as big than every other? You know the tournament that actually made people practicing seriously for once before a tournament? But of course you'd rather count some tournament where most ppl such as mango didnt give a **** about...Scorpion master, enough said.
 

Selodin

2PAC
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
38
Location
Ellsworth AFB, SD
tournament size is irrelevant when you play at the top, don't act like there are other players as good as mango/armada/etc. that just magically showed up for evo but not something like apex.
 
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