EVO 2013 Melee Info Dump! - FINAL DAY: TOP 8 STARTING AT NOON: http://www.twitch.tv/srkevo1

[lordvaati]

he's genuinely excited at all the wrong times
don't come back james chen
we don't have HMW doing AE commentary so keep out of smash you tard

James is the guy who wants Smash to get more respect in the FGC,and considers it part of the FGC already.......so yeah, screw you dude.

funny how you say to him what others always claim they say to us.

 

[Dan -Zodiac-]

Better that Armada lost than won for the game in general but there was definitely a lack of an epic set with him. Genesis 3 would have had Bo5 top 8, just sayin..

 

[Jayk]

Armada was mostly on, but was just a little bit off in his out of shield game (all those up bs instead of nairs) and edgeguard game, and it cost him a lot verse spacies that could pressure him.
He played as well as ever verse other characters, but against spacies he was a small amount off.

 

[Neuron_Panzer]

he's genuinely excited at all the wrong times
don't come back james chen
we don't have HMW doing AE commentary so keep out of smash you tard

I want to say as someone that isn't a Smash community person but donated for and came here to hang out during the donation drive, it really helped me (as a 'traditional' FGC game player - SF, Marvel etc) to have James there. I have Smash knowledge from casual play with friends, but that's it. James had clearly done research on Smash, but he also had a level of non-understanding that allowed for explanations to be given to him and, through association, the stream. James is well-respected, so having him on Smash commentary genuinely excited and genuinely behind the game's competitive legacy and competitive future goes a long way, I think, towards legitimizing the game with the naysayers and ensuring it keeps coming back for Evo. That's my take, anyway. I understand your point, though.

Anyway -- I really hope you guys are all happy. I thought Melee was hype as hell and I really swelled with pride for you as that awesome intro rocked out and the matches were really hot. A great advert for the community and the fact that, yes, this is a fighting game - if Sakurai and Nintendo like it or not. It's so easy to forget Street Fighter II's combos were essentially the result of a glitch. Hopefully Nintendo doesn't cockblock you lot next year, as I can't see EVO not inviting you back. Hell, maybe it'll be on the next game...

 

[Kimimaru]

He rarely chaingrabbed too. I was actually surprised one time where he chose to N-air or something after a clean hit against Mango instead of starting a chaingrab. He was playing off for sure but I expected it since he hasn't been practicing as much.

 

[Xyzz]

I thought Melee was hype as hell and I really swelled with pride for you as that awesome intro rocked out and the matches were really hot. A great advert for the community and the fact that, yes, this is a fighting game - if Sakurai and Nintendo like it or not

I'm glad people not really playing smash enjoyed the event as well <3

Also: can you perchance answer me a question I've been wondering about for a while: Do you traditional fg people "understand" the games you don't actually play? I mean e.g. assuming you were a SF IV person, would you get why something somebody does in MvC3 is really well played? Sure, there's stuff like "that combo is sooo hard to do, it has two 1 frame links" is obviously a great testament to the players technical ability if he consistently pulls that off in high pressure situations, but do you understand why something somebody does in the neutral position is great?
Because I sure as hell don't

 

[Neuron_Panzer]

I'm glad people not really playing smash enjoyed the event as well <3

Also: can you perchance answer me a question I've been wondering about for a while: Do you traditional fg people "understand" the games you don't actually play? I mean e.g. assuming you were a SF IV person, would you get why something somebody does in MvC3 is really well played? Sure, there's stuff like "that combo is sooo hard to do, it has two 1 frame links" is obviously a great testament to the players technical ability if he consistently pulls that off in high pressure situations, but do you understand why something somebody does in the neutral position is great?
Because I sure as hell don't

I mean, to be clear, I'd classify myself as a Smash casual, but I'm still higher up on the fandom list than the average player. I imported Brawl because I didn't want to wait for its EU release, and the day it arrived my friends and I had a big Brawl party. I was sorely disappointed with the game, and when we rarely boot up Smash now, we use Project M. But I'd definitely go 2-0 in any Smash tournament to even your scrubbiest players. I didn't dislike Brawl because wavedashing was gone, because I never really cared about any of that stuff... but something about Brawl (the speed, etc etc) just felt inferior. So I do 'get' Melee/Smash on a basic mechanical level, I suppose.


I think there's a neutral ground between certain games. There's a language shared. Marvel is very different to Street Fighter moment-to-moment, but at a very macro level there's the same basic idea of gameplay going on - both those two games boil down to knockdowns and mix-ups, situation resets, footsies and so on. The execution on the combos in between is a different thing, and where the two differ - in Marvel you can do those massive character-killing combos, whereas SF resets the situation much more quickly - but at a very basic level the goal in a given moment and how Yomi plays out is the same, I think. Yomi is a Japanese term meaning "Knowing the mind of the opponent", and is essentially an intangible asset required in fighting games. It's the ability to know what your opponent is going to do, and act appropriately. Whether you achieve this by "conditioning" the opponent to act one way, and then acting in another way, or simply work your way into the head of your opponent, yomi is just that: the ability to know what your opponent is going to do. Daigo may be struggling in Street Fighter right now due to character loyalty and bad match-ups, for instance, but his Yomi is still some of the best.

Tekken is completely different tonally to SF/Marvel, for instance... there's still yomi, but it's completely different, and as a Street Fighter person I look at Tekken and I might as well be looking into a kaleidoscope, really. So it depends. You can group certain games together. I don't get Tekken, but it's easy for me to understand Persona/KOF/etc as they share that basic code with SF, which I do play. I bet Tekken players can understand Dead or Alive really easily as well.

I actually think Melee and Marvel have similarities in that both games are (to my eyes) this sort of dance prior to a hit being made. It's not as delicate as Street Fighter; like Marvel, the footsies and stuff are more profound. There's a lot of jumping, a lot of dashing - all that. Street Fighter is very often played in pixels, where Marvel is played in giant hitboxes, and I think in footsies Melee looks like the latter. However, when somebody gets in, the situation resets in a manner more like Street Fighter - aside from the infinites and stuff, it's a hit-and-run game, a few hits and out again, and then the dance begins anew. It's all about positioning. Watching that Ice Climbers action was fascinating to me, as it was so much like Marvel; Marvel is a game where if someone has solid execution on your combos, it's "one touch and a character is gone" - and so that dance is so important, so vital. It was the same there, in a sense - it was about dancing, avoiding that grab infinite, separating the two climbers, killing the CPU-controlled one -- all this is really very tonally similar at a macro level to the game that happens in Marvel, with baiting out assists and all that kind of stuff.

In that respect, I don't think it's really that hard for SF fans to 'get' Smash. There's definitely that shared code. I think the hardest thing to get over is understanding the non-traditional way health and vitality works, and that isn't tough to understand.

I really think often the combos and the one-frame-links and all that stuff is secondary. The mind game comes first, understanding your opponent and opening them up. The execution on a combo after the fact is, imo, just a formality. If you open somebody up and then drop the combo, that's an even bigger heartbreaker than failing to open them up - as combos and reflexes can be learned.

Wow, rant. I hope watching Evo maybe gets some of you lot to give some 2D fighters a go, too. I'm sure some of the Smash skill set transfers over, really.

 

[Ulevo]

^^^ It was a remix of Corneria (like the Melee stage) from Star Fox (the original).

It didn't sound like it to me... Maybe I'm imaging it? Does anyone have a link?

 

[Hot_ArmS]

if a link to the intro you can watch it at ~3:13:45

http://www.twitch.tv/srkevo1/b/430438070



but yeah can someone put just the intro on youtube lol its sick

 

[LKratos]

I mean, to be clear, I'd classify myself as a Smash casual, but I'm still higher up on the fandom list than the average player. I imported Brawl because I didn't want to wait for its EU release, and the day it arrived my friends and I had a big Brawl party. I was sorely disappointed with the game, and when we rarely boot up Smash now, we use Project M. But I'd definitely go 2-0 in any Smash tournament to even your scrubbiest players. I didn't dislike Brawl because wavedashing was gone, because I never really cared about any of that stuff... but something about Brawl (the speed, etc etc) just felt inferior. So I do 'get' Melee/Smash on a basic mechanical level, I suppose.


I think there's a neutral ground between certain games. There's a language shared. Marvel is very different to Street Fighter moment-to-moment, but at a very macro level there's the same basic idea of gameplay going on - both those two games boil down to knockdowns and mix-ups, situation resets, footsies and so on. The execution on the combos in between is a different thing, and where the two differ - in Marvel you can do those massive character-killing combos, whereas SF resets the situation much more quickly - but at a very basic level the goal in a given moment and how Yomi plays out is the same, I think. Yomi is a Japanese term meaning "Knowing the mind of the opponent", and is essentially an intangible asset required in fighting games. It's the ability to know what your opponent is going to do, and act appropriately. Whether you achieve this by "conditioning" the opponent to act one way, and then acting in another way, or simply work your way into the head of your opponent, yomi is just that: the ability to know what your opponent is going to do. Daigo may be struggling in Street Fighter right now due to character loyalty and bad match-ups, for instance, but his Yomi is still some of the best.

Tekken is completely different tonally to SF/Marvel, for instance... there's still yomi, but it's completely different, and as a Street Fighter person I look at Tekken and I might as well be looking into a kaleidoscope, really. So it depends. You can group certain games together. I don't get Tekken, but it's easy for me to understand Persona/KOF/etc as they share that basic code with SF, which I do play. I bet Tekken players can understand Dead or Alive really easily as well.

I actually think Melee and Marvel have similarities in that both games are (to my eyes) this sort of dance prior to a hit being made. It's not as delicate as Street Fighter; like Marvel, the footsies and stuff are more profound. There's a lot of jumping, a lot of dashing - all that. Street Fighter is very often played in pixels, where Marvel is played in giant hitboxes, and I think in footsies Melee looks like the latter. However, when somebody gets in, the situation resets in a manner more like Street Fighter - aside from the infinites and stuff, it's a hit-and-run game, a few hits and out again, and then the dance begins anew. It's all about positioning. Watching that Ice Climbers action was fascinating to me, as it was so much like Marvel; Marvel is a game where if someone has solid execution on your combos, it's "one touch and a character is gone" - and so that dance is so important, so vital. It was the same there, in a sense - it was about dancing, avoiding that grab infinite, separating the two climbers, killing the CPU-controlled one -- all this is really very tonally similar at a macro level to the game that happens in Marvel, with baiting out assists and all that kind of stuff.

In that respect, I don't think it's really that hard for SF fans to 'get' Smash. There's definitely that shared code. I think the hardest thing to get over is understanding the non-traditional way health and vitality works, and that isn't tough to understand.

I really think often the combos and the one-frame-links and all that stuff is secondary. The mind game comes first, understanding your opponent and opening them up. The execution on a combo after the fact is, imo, just a formality. If you open somebody up and then drop the combo, that's an even bigger heartbreaker than failing to open them up - as combos and reflexes can be learned.

Wow, rant. I hope watching Evo maybe gets some of you lot to give some 2D fighters a go, too. I'm sure some of the Smash skill set transfers over, really.

As someone who casually plays some of those other fighters, this is a fantastic analysis of the similarities/differences among them. Thank you!

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I'm pretty sure that song is just a remix of the melee opening theme.

 

[Revven]

if a link to the intro you can watch it at ~3:13:45

http://www.twitch.tv/srkevo1/b/430438070



but yeah can someone put just the intro on youtube lol its sick

The creator Seth Mussey said it'll be uploaded to youtube in the coming days in full quality. You can follow him on Twitter @SethMussey (seriously Alex Strife contact this man and get him to do intros for Apex 2014 or something!!)

 

[Xyzz]

-snip-

Wow, thanks for typing all that. I've always been sorta interested in traditional fighting games ever since a friend of mine got me into melee, I just really like some things about Melee. Especially the freedom in movement (like wavedashes/lands, dash dancing, utilizing platforms and the ledges, and the limitations and advantages which are associated with each technique of moving around, so you carefully have to choose which to use (e.g. running is fast and has no tech skill involved whatsoever but severly restricts your move options)) and the fluid combo system. I really like how DI allows the player being comboed to still interact with the game in a meaningful way and not forcing him to watch hoping that his opponent will mess up playing a single player game. Also the variety is so amazing, how everything is depending on weights/percents/staleness/platform positions/your evaluation of the current worth of stage position vs extra damage (and the risk in dropping the combo too early when going for either)).

>>I really think often the combos and the one-frame-links and all that stuff is secondary. The mind game comes first, understanding your opponent and opening them up. The execution on a combo after the fact is, imo, just a formality.
Like I said, this is part of the reason why I really like smash. The combo after winning the footsies / mindgame war is not just you executing something you've practiced for as long as you had the time / motivation to do so, but rather what you come up with on the spot (sure there's some staple parts, but you can chain those together really creatively <3).
But yeah, the neutral position is where you win games in melee as well. Which is imho pretty fun to see when there's this clash between some technical player with really strong combos against somebody who just consistently tacks on some percents, but manages to often shape the following situations to be in a way that somehow is advantageous to him (a bit like okizeme / forcing the opponent in the corner in more traditional fighting games) or just straight up outplays his opponent more often in neutral.

Geez, I should just buy SF4 already and start playing that as well. I really never noticed those small spacing adjustments you spoke of (to me it looks like one person spams Hadokens and the other jumps over them :D), but they sound fun. (the only somewhat traditional fighting games I've ever had a somewhat closer look at would be the Touhou fighting games crossovers, and those probably are rather weird already with all the projectile stuff flying around :D (oh and some casual sf4/mvc3 matches at a friends place, but those probably don't even clock 20h))

 

[Johnknight1]

It didn't sound like it to me... Maybe I'm imaging it? Does anyone have a link?

I think I heard that exist remix before. I'm not sure if that was the only song, but it was definitely in that video. I am 100% positive on it.

Note that the Corneria theme from Star Fox (the original) is a different song than the Star Fox 64/Melee Corneria theme.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Also: can you perchance answer me a question I've been wondering about for a while: Do you traditional fg people "understand" the games you don't actually play? I mean e.g. assuming you were a SF IV person, would you get why something somebody does in MvC3 is really well played? Sure, there's stuff like "that combo is sooo hard to do, it has two 1 frame links" is obviously a great testament to the players technical ability if he consistently pulls that off in high pressure situations, but do you understand why something somebody does in the neutral position is great?
Because I sure as hell don't

It really varies by game. Basic elements shared between most of them (meter management, simple mix-ups, corner pressure and the general usage of arena space as a resource, etc.) carry over, but I don't think you can appreciate the team aspect of a game like MvC3 unless you've specifically played that sort of team-based game (the only other one I can name being Skullgirls). In the neutral game, an MvC3 player will specifically be looking out for things like assist calls that cut off certain angles of approach or team hypers that could blow him up, and he'll act around those accordingly. They'll also understand the general roles the opponent's characters play on his team (who's there to deal damage; who's there as simply an assist to help the point character get his hits in the first place; who's gonna pop XF3 and try to YOLO faceroll over the opposition once he's backed into a corner) and prioritize threats accordingly. Someone not educated on the game will just see half a dozen characters dancing around randomly until somebody gets a hit and converts it into a 1-touch kill combo.

Then there's things that are shared between games conceptually but have some level of subtlety in how they differ between games, such as wake-up strategy. In SF4, characters have virtually no options in how they rise from the ground after being knocked down, so a huge strategic part of the game is how an aggressor can capitalize on a knockdown and set-up a mix-up that the rising character has to block. Once you understand this aspect of SF4, you can probably appreciate how wake-up tactics work in other games even if the specific mechanics are different, as you can evaluate the options and inform yourself on how the advantage/disadvantage works.

I played casual Smash a lot, but competitive Smash was never something I explored. This weekend was an interesting show. #freeiceclimbers

 

[Steelia]

I'm terribly sorry if this has already been posted, or there's a topic floating around. But -

https://twitter.com/ProtomCannon/status/356519101331550208
http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/2013...-pulled-from-evo-tournament-quickly-restored/

 

[shadrach kabango]

Apparently I was the only one not impressed by the tourny.

Armada was awful. Couldn't punish at all.

Mango was not playing particularly amazing. Rather, that may have been his best, but his best is no longer dominating. He almost lost to SFAT, for christ sakes. A couple of years ago he 2-3 stocks Wobbles/SFAT/everyone without breaking a sweat.

You guys are just drama junkies. Emotionally, I'm no longer invested in the game. I watch for the pure skill. And I wasn't impressed.

The problem is more hype = worse play. Nerves. Big time nerves. Nerves and camping. I saw soooo much camping. Even Mango had to resort to camping in order to win. As a result, execution suffers tremendously. There were very few combos! Just a bunch of footsies. With few exceptions.

I've passed this game by. It's a total waste of time to me. I can no longer justify it. I've learned what I needed to out of the game and now it is no longer stimulating. To stick around any longer would be solely out of fear of leaving it, of feeling like I was losing something, sentimentality that, in reality, was lost long ago, but only now realized.

In short: it's an addiction. Pressing buttons and doing the same things over and over. The metagame is stagnant, the game all but solved. Creativity in the game is dead.

 

[SolxBadguy]

It was till mvc3 with an extra 10k and an I'm not sure about the nico numbers for AE since most japanese went there an it was 2am est but still views is whatever the important thing is that people enjoyed it an I'm sure it will be back next year because of the hype just like KoF

 

[Xyzz]

In short: it's an addiction. Pressing buttons and doing the same things over and over. The metagame is stagnant, the game all but solved. Creativity in the game is dead.

Strange how for a game that's solved and therefore completely relying on your ability to execute Wes isn't pooping all over the top5.
And strange how since you learned everything there is to learn you never showed up in any top slots in tourneys...

Mysteries over mysteries.

I'm totally fine with people saying the game is no longer interesting to them, and they're going to move on to more fun/important things in life, but calling melee solved is plain ridiculous.

 

[omniholy]

Apparently I was the only one not impressed by the tourny.

Armada was awful. Couldn't punish at all.

Mango was not playing particularly amazing. Rather, that may have been his best, but his best is no longer dominating. He almost lost to SFAT, for christ sakes. A couple of years ago he 2-3 stocks Wobbles/SFAT/everyone without breaking a sweat.

You guys are just drama junkies. Emotionally, I'm no longer invested in the game. I watch for the pure skill. And I wasn't impressed.

The problem is more hype = worse play. Nerves. Big time nerves. Nerves and camping. I saw soooo much camping. Even Mango had to resort to camping in order to win. As a result, execution suffers tremendously. There were very few combos! Just a bunch of footsies. With few exceptions.

I've passed this game by. It's a total waste of time to me. I can no longer justify it. I've learned what I needed to out of the game and now it is no longer stimulating. To stick around any longer would be solely out of fear of leaving it, of feeling like I was losing something, sentimentality that, in reality, was lost long ago, but only now realized.

In short: it's an addiction. Pressing buttons and doing the same things over and over. The metagame is stagnant, the game all but solved. Creativity in the game is dead.

Armada definitely didn't punish or edgeguard as well as we have come to expect.

With regards to Mango, it looked like he was playing a lot worse on Saturday than on Sunday. I think he went 2-0 against everyone and 6-1 against Wobbles in GF?

 

[shadrach kabango]

Strange how for a game that's solved and therefore completely relying on your ability to execute Wes isn't pooping all over the top5.

First of all, you're putting words in my mouth. I understand that critiquing such a passionate hobby of yours may activate defense mechanisms, but please take a deep breath and, if you are truly curious of the perspective of my commentary, attempt to remain impartial.

I never said it was completely reliant on execution. Furthermore, even if it was, why would Wes be top 5? His execution is far from perfect.

And strange how since you learned everything there is to learn you never showed up in any top slots in tourneys...

I was referring to my personal life. I learned what I needed to learn for my life's path from this game/community. Life >>> game. But men become tools of their tools.

I'm totally fine with people saying the game is no longer interesting to them, and they're going to move on to more fun/important things in life, but calling melee solved is plain ridiculous.

That's, like, just my opinion, man. If you feel it's so ridiculous that there is no conceivable way of meeting in the middle, then ignore me. That's what I'll do if your future reply is as "ridiculous."

 

[Xyzz]

Well, I admittedly tend to be rather sharp in my replies to stuff I consider to be stupid, because I can't be bothered to be nice all the time and I don't like lying to people in general.

Maybe I'm even a bit hung up on semantics here. "Solved" is the word I (and tons of people with a decent background in mathematics or more specific game theory) would use for connect four or sth. where we have a distinct way to always win, which is mathematically proven to be undefeatable.
With Melee? No way. Why are there different approaches to the same character if there would be a clearly superior stye? Why is there any discussion on how to handle situations, if we know eveything already? Hell, most of us don't even know the entire "rules" to the game yet (e.g. discovering stuff like shieldstop pivots / shield drops / whatever).

So I suppose the first thing I will need to hear to somewhat accept your opinion as "not complete nonsense" is your diverging definition of "solved", because even with the premises of having to decide under uncertainty and therefore having to deal with some RPS along the way in any case, we can't even say "if you expect your opponent to throw scissors, throw rock" in melee terms yet, because we can't decide on the most "rocky" response, leading to the biggest/safest rewards.

 

[1MachGO]

Evo was awesome, but I do wish top 8 had closer sets. IMO, the pressure seemed to affect a lot of players. To boot, a lot of the punishes looked rushed and reaction times seemed slightly off which made the matches have a quality that was atypical of high level melee, a great example would be the first stocks of Mango and Dr. PP in top 8 during their second match> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-eLEta713c&feature=player_detailpage#t=247s.

On top of that, confidence, aka momentum, played the biggest role ever. Small differences in confidence often made it very clear just WHO was in control of the match and thus, a predictable outcome. Once it ended, I felt that Hbox vs. Wobbles was the only set where neither player felt dominant the entire time. Again, I can't even imagine the pressure, so I can't complain about anyone's performance, but I do wish every match was on the same calibur as M2K vs. Shiz ROM 4... awesome combos, brutal gimps, and unpredictability. Not to detract from the positive impact Melee's evo appearance had, but I was hoping to see a bit more from the matches and a bit more of Melee's capabilities on display.

With that said, there was still some amazing moments. Mango put on a fantastic show with some amazing reads and Wobbles played incredible; which was a nice surprise since almost everybody slept on him prior to evo. Overall, I'd say this is still an incredible tournament. My disappointment towards the sets is really just complaining about a lack of frosting on an otherwise perfect cake.

 

[Mithost]

Neuron_Panzer, it's really cool to hear that from someone 'outside' the community. When talking about smash in the fighting community, most of the topic is about if the community accepts it as a true (though not traditional) fighting game.

The main difference I see in melee compared to normal fighters is movement. Instead of simply the distance apart, air, and corner pressure, smash has a physical being (the stage) that holds it's own position in the fight. Location of both characters differ drastically, and movement is a much bigger part of the game. This movement is something I believe fits right into the slot missing from guarding mixups. Movement is your defence in smash. Where in most fighting games, certain moves need to be blocked high, low, or reversed, moves in smash can be minimized or damage can be avoided by DI'ing a certain way, wavedashing correctly, or using the stage's platforms/ledges to your advantage.

Supers, XFactor, and other comeback/finisher mechanics can be substituted by the ledgegame that smash has. By being smart on the ledge, you can take off an entire stock from the opponent at any damage percent. Using your supers and the ledge are both risky in the same way. If you misuse either of these tactics, the opponent will almost always be in a position to counter-use them on you. I saw this a lot in Marvel last night, and it reminded me on how people got attracted to the 'free stocks' option of ledge abuse in smash. People would XFactor early to try to take out the rival's Zero or Pheonix, and end up wasting it when the opponent manages to get their own combo started and XFactor in the better position. In marvel, taking down a character (especially the starting/dominate character) would put you in a similar advantageous position for getting an early stock lead.

In my opinion, Melee is not a textbook 'fighting game'. However, it shares nearly all of the concepts, ideas, mechanics, mindgames, and players with the FGC. I believe that Melee should get to share the stage with the big names as well.

 

[MountainGoat]

Apparently I was the only one not impressed by the tourny.

Armada was awful. Couldn't punish at all.

Mango was not playing particularly amazing. Rather, that may have been his best, but his best is no longer dominating. He almost lost to SFAT, for christ sakes. A couple of years ago he 2-3 stocks Wobbles/SFAT/everyone without breaking a sweat.

You guys are just drama junkies. Emotionally, I'm no longer invested in the game. I watch for the pure skill. And I wasn't impressed.

The problem is more hype = worse play. Nerves. Big time nerves. Nerves and camping. I saw soooo much camping. Even Mango had to resort to camping in order to win. As a result, execution suffers tremendously. There were very few combos! Just a bunch of footsies. With few exceptions.

I've passed this game by. It's a total waste of time to me. I can no longer justify it. I've learned what I needed to out of the game and now it is no longer stimulating. To stick around any longer would be solely out of fear of leaving it, of feeling like I was losing something, sentimentality that, in reality, was lost long ago, but only now realized.

In short: it's an addiction. Pressing buttons and doing the same things over and over. The metagame is stagnant, the game all but solved. Creativity in the game is dead.

lol

 

[SpiderMad]

Okay, who had Taylor Hicks in their pool lol?

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013/...2013-tied-257th-place-super-smash-bros-melee/

Apparently I was the only one not impressed by the tourny.

In short: it's an addiction. Pressing buttons and doing the same things over and over. The metagame is stagnant, the game all but solved. Creativity in the game is dead.

Time to play P:M, also be sure to try out the Wifi safe version for offline use: the light press air dodge is more comfortable and superior to hard press but people are "addicted" to the hard press

 

[MimicMew]

Apparently I was the only one not impressed by the tourny.

Armada was awful. Couldn't punish at all.

Mango was not playing particularly amazing. Rather, that may have been his best, but his best is no longer dominating. He almost lost to SFAT, for christ sakes. A couple of years ago he 2-3 stocks Wobbles/SFAT/everyone without breaking a sweat.

You guys are just drama junkies. Emotionally, I'm no longer invested in the game. I watch for the pure skill. And I wasn't impressed.

The problem is more hype = worse play. Nerves. Big time nerves. Nerves and camping. I saw soooo much camping. Even Mango had to resort to camping in order to win. As a result, execution suffers tremendously. There were very few combos! Just a bunch of footsies. With few exceptions.

I've passed this game by. It's a total waste of time to me. I can no longer justify it. I've learned what I needed to out of the game and now it is no longer stimulating. To stick around any longer would be solely out of fear of leaving it, of feeling like I was losing something, sentimentality that, in reality, was lost long ago, but only now realized.

In short: it's an addiction. Pressing buttons and doing the same things over and over. The metagame is stagnant, the game all but solved. Creativity in the game is dead.

Do you feel special saying this? Just curious.

Axe, Wobbles, SFAT, and many other players have improved by a lot over these past few years. Please try giving them credit for their skill. Also, camping does not = worse play.

Please just leave the community if it's such a waste of time to you.

 

[Habefiet]

I know.

Dude no if you'd have been there I dunno what I'd have done with myself in the stream chat, I'd be worried you'd died or something

poetry

This post is amazing and you should feel amazing

 

[SpiderMad]

Wow, rant. I hope watching Evo maybe gets some of you lot to give some 2D fighters a go, too. I'm sure some of the Smash skill set transfers over, really.

I've been trying, but I don't have an Xbox or Ps3. My friend recommended me the http://damdai.com/supercade/ emulator, and the most popular game people play "Street Fighter 3: Third Strike". But learning the games been super hard with even youtube tutorials specifically for it still being TOO in-depth, and I've been using keyboard which some people do but I've been thinking of getting this specifically for fighting games (Xbox controllers like this are said to work fine for PC) http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-Versus-Controller/dp/B0051MQJWU/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1373948282&sr=8-14&keywords=xbox pdp (People say it goes bad fast even though I really like the comfortable looking Joypad, as well as I won't order it till I really need something to get the $25 of Amazon stuff for free shipping)

 

[Beat!]

Dude no if you'd have been there I dunno what I'd have done with myself in the stream chat, I'd be worried you'd died or something

That's why both of us should've been there.

Also, there would've been no use worrying about me dying, as there would have been constant updates about me crushing through the bracket and consequently winning the entire tournament.

 

[Neuron_Panzer]

I've been trying, but I don't have an Xbox or Ps3. My friend recommended me the http://damdai.com/supercade/ emulator, and the most popular game people play "Street Fighter 3: Third Strike". But learning the games been super hard with even youtube tutorials specifically for it still being TOO in-depth, and I've been using keyboard which some people do but I've been thinking of getting this specifically for fighting games (Xbox controllers like this are said to work fine for PC) http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-Versus-Controller/dp/B0051MQJWU/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1373948282&sr=8-14&keywords=xbox pdp (People say it goes bad fast even though I really like the comfortable looking Joypad, as well as I won't order it till I really need something to get the $25 of Amazon stuff for free shipping)

I've never used one of those, but there's no shame in any sort of pad. 360/PS3 pad users have made Evo top 8 in SF and Marvel both before.

I personally started on one of these, similar to what you linked: http://www.amazon.com/Mad-Catz-Stre...=1373976038&sr=1-3&keywords=mad+catz+fightpad

For me, though, the end game was to transfer fully to stick, which I eventually did. But those pads are cool. SF4 is available on Steam, and doesn't require great PC specs to run. Worth a blast.

 

[KishPrime]

In short: it's an addiction. Pressing buttons and doing the same things over and over. The metagame is stagnant, the game all but solved. Creativity in the game is dead.

I think you've probably been called out well enough here, but I'll just also say that your statements, while some are factually correct, go one step too far into "I understand things way better than you kids, so peace out." Your last line in particular. We can't speak to your personal life, but self-elevation on your way out the door is a little unrefined.

I agree that there has been some stagnation of the meta. The fact is that we need a new player or two to step it up. There hasn't been a dramatic move by any characters around the Top 5 for some time. The Doc/Pikachu/YL characters have been dulled and the limitations exposed a year or more ago. The IC game by Wobbles, while entirely excellent (and I was cheering him and thrilled every step of the way), isn't exactly being hailed as a revolution in the meta and largely seized on other players' errors (While some were forced, that's simply player interaction, not meta changes). Plus, rumor is that he's leaving the game anyway. Marth has had a decent little rise, but it's not like that's led to any major changes at the top and PP even apparently quit him. The fact is that we desperately need to see some new talent, and I'm not sure that it is coming until 1-2 years after the new Smash game releases, if at all.

Solved doesn't have to mean "only one way to win," though that is the classic definition. We haven't been surprised by anything, character-wise for awhile. That doesn't have to reduce or negate people's enjoyment of the experience - it's not like sports don't have extremely slow "meta" changes. People still enjoy them for the skill on display and the competition involved.

I disagree that Mango wasn't dominant on Sunday. You aren't going to see 2007-2008 level dominance with the talent that is present nowadays. The game was very limited then with Brawl sucking away a good chunk of attention still and 80% of people convinced it was going to die soon. There were very clearly some nerves at play, but Mango also pushed that into people with a clear play-to-win focus, and I say that as someone who has been very clear on Mango's position as only being among the Top 5 over the past few years. This was a different Mango than has been on display in nationals, and yes, the patient laser play was representative of that. It was hardly camping (don't think it was ever more than 3 lasers), but it did exactly what it needed to do - it prevented Armada from simply countering his moves and forced him into an unwise attacking position on Fox. Armada's permanent uncertain position between attack and defense is what allowed Mango to have the kind of success that he hasn't had in years.

That was my read anyway. It was brilliant play by Mango, and that is also the reason why Wobbles should get major props for being the only player to take a round off of him on Sunday.

 

[KishPrime]

Okay, who had Taylor Hicks in their pool lol?
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013/...2013-tied-257th-place-super-smash-bros-melee/

What the this is hilarious.

 

[Spaghetti]

melee is not "solved". assuming human skill limits and we're not all like the crazy TAS fox multishine wombo combo with yourself you can see on youtube, there is no 1 "optimal" strategy in any position. there's still a ****ton of variation - is running up and grabbing objectively better than running up and shielding and then punishing the response with a shieldgrab? it's not, so you have to think on your feet constantly.

chess is a game that gets a lot of flak for being a solved game (computers have literally 100% **** on that game by pretty much completely analyzing every opening and most situations, and top players cannot beat the top computers anymore), but at the top level games are still fresh and exciting because of the existence of the human limit - a human cannot possibly do all the calculations that an optimal TAS'd human would be able to do.

 

[KishPrime]

melee is not "solved". assuming human skill limits and we're not all like the crazy TAS fox multishine wombo combo with yourself you can see on youtube, there is no 1 "optimal" strategy in any position. there's still a ****ton of variation - is running up and grabbing objectively better than running up and shielding and then punishing the response with a shieldgrab? it's not, so you have to think on your feet constantly.

chess is a game that gets a lot of flak for being a solved game (computers have literally 100% **** on that game by pretty much completely analyzing every opening and most situations, and top players cannot beat the top computers anymore), but at the top level games are still fresh and exciting because of the existence of the human limit - a human cannot possibly do all the calculations that an optimal TAS'd human would be able to do.

That's why I was stating that it's not solved in the classical sense of the term. However, no one has broken our conceptions of what is possible in this game due to the human limit for some time.

Again, that doesn't mean it's uninteresting or that it can't be enjoyed, it just means that the meta is a bit stagnant right now. Competition is still enjoyable for competition's sake, and as we've seen over the last year, there is an awful lot of "any given day" amongst out best.

 

[Xyzz]

chess is a game that gets a lot of flak for being a solved game

Chess is far from being solved. We can tell the optimal play from every position with 6 pieces (including kings) or less on the board. Still 7 or more remaining? Too bad, we don't know all of those yet, calculations are still running.

Solved doesn't have to mean "only one way to win," though that is the classic definition.

Minor nitpick: The classic definition would be "games where the outcome of any given position is known assuming perfect play by both parties", which would include non-constructive proofs

 

[KishPrime]

Your words win the day, my friend.

 

[Engo]

I dunno about you guys but I saw Wobbles with a ton of innovation and creativity, especially in the Puff matchup.

 

[balladechina212]

Okay, who had Taylor Hicks in their pool lol?

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013/...2013-tied-257th-place-super-smash-bros-melee/

But actually though. I think 257th implies that he won two in losers before getting knocked out but I'm not sure. Can't find him in any of the brackets.

 

[Revven]

He apparently watched SSBM finals and then once that was over, left. Someone tweeted about that (too lazy to get the link at the moment)