I've been avoiding walls due to how much people hate them, but at this point I don't feel like I'll get my full thoughts across without having one. TL;DR will be at the end for what I'd post in non-wall form, but I still want to have all of my thoughts out there.
I've said so much about Z25 at this point, but people still question me on it and are still wondering if I'd put slots like ex: Laundry, Kantrip, Ryker, Disfunk over Z. Shishoe is the only slot I would have put with Z, but that was due to the situation at the time where Z sitting on Ryker was more of a "scummy but could easily be town with bad logic" type scenario. Shishoe was in a similar boat at the time except Shishoe was sitting on Pokechu for something worse and was someone I was more comfortable with dropping.
I had problems with his D1 vote at the time due to how problematic it is to sit on an AFK target when you have actual suspects and how the initial vote came across, but that point doesn't really hold up to the rest of my thoughts. It's still there, but not a strong aspect of my read at this point. The other problems I had early on were that he would defend himself with meta and kind of stroke his ego saying like "Seph voted me early in x game that doesn't matter, but he ended up being scum" while doing so. More on that later.
Kantrip: pretty scummy to me. They are acting completely differently and their approach to me made no sense and they just seem to want to lynch me to lynch me. Which is a horrible approach because lynches should be based more on facts rather then random statements. They literally said I was scum for having a life irl, at least that’s what their core basically came down too which is just stupid. Pretty anti town approach imo.
This is where my current problem with the slot begins. "Their approach to me made no sense and they just seem to want to lynch me to lynch me" when Kantrip communicated efficiently why Z was suspect and showed that he agreed with my logic just makes this point unrealistic. Sitting on this until the Kantrip & Ryker dialogue is very suspect when the actual reasoning for being there has little evidence actually backing it up. If this was just a day 1 thing, I'd be fine brushing it off, but this goes into day 2 and his votes from there on out just aren't much better. While I'm not one to push OMGUS, this is something I'd consider to be self-preserverance if connected to other things... which is definitely the case.
Well that’s a shame we killed the mascot. I’m sorry shishoe, I really didn’t think you were the play though
The only big post from Z before making this statement is that he said Shishoe wasn't contributing and didn't have the right to tell Pokechu to contribute when he wasn't contributing himself.
This starts the line of "I didn't want to lynch -insert townie that got lynched-" chain of statements. This is also the first point in the game with very obvious self-preservation shown. This is where things like his Seph comments come into play. It's just pushing a narrative where he may not have great logic, but he's still town regardless because even if he has flawed logic, his head has been in the right place in terms of who he has/hasn't really wanted gone.
Mafias pick is much likelier to be someone who can just fly by the radar. And who disappeared yesterday after I started questioning their behavior? Kantrip.
And who’s in the vote pool today? Kantrip.
I’m doubling down on my points from last phase. Kantrip is scum based on their behavior change and their super filmsy and quite frankly stupid reasoning to get rid of me yesterday. When I started fighting back he vanished and that spells scum to me.
Also something to add, I don’t see Ryker being scum. He came in here like a blazing fire yesterday making himself known hitting people with questions and facts and all kinds of opinions on where things are going.
These were the last posts on these two before Kantrip and Ryker had their bromance. I want to note about the first quote that while he says this about Kantrip, he also said beforehand that he also thought one of Ryker/Laundry could be scum due to strict mechanics.
Afterwards:
Am I the only to notice Ryker is doing whatever he can to really avoid discussion on himself? He’s posting post after post targeting everyone else in the wagon. And he’s not even fact checking right such as his comment in when pokechu votes. For someone so dedicated to point out supicous posts, it feels like he’s low key half adding it because he only shows up for a little bit of time and then tries to be active while asking more questions and posting generic info then answers.
My biggest problem is how he only conviently showed up a little before deadline last phase and fought like hell to change the vote. With al the time he could have had between both these phases, his posts sound like desperate attempts to keep his name clean and around supiscion in everyone else.
Am I the only one against his tone and actions?
I don't think the actual flip here by itself is suspect, don't get me wrong. Kantrip really put himself in a townie light here, and it's why I didn't think anything of Kantrip dropping his Z read a bit on this.
The problem here though goes back to the logic. "not fact checking right" is a very nit-picky thing to push, and I said this at the time. This point specifically was really bad due to the fact that Pokechu sat on Shishoe, disappeared, and then voted Shishoe again 4 minutes before deadline. Literally half of the players active were like "wtf Pokechu that's sus" even though he was the first one to vote there. This doesn't make someone scummy, and if it did, it wouldn't apply to Ryker specifically. This on top of pushing Ryker for being inactive when Ryker literally wasn't here due to being at a FGC event (with me and Laundry both confirming it) just makes this push worthless.
So with that in mind, the scummiest part about this is that due to the lack of logic and genuine evidence behind those points, this vote comes across as "I need to push one of the big contributers" instead of genuinely having reason to believe Ryker is scummy. I think this point is more evident when he switches to Laundry, but due to the quote below, I still think it shows very strongly here.
I do want to say that I think likeliest scum in the pool are probably laundry or Ryker. With the way the two play off of each other’s posts, I think at least one is scum using their connections from past games to the other to seem town and increase discussion without risking scum slipping
.
As for my posts. I was wavering on going fullnin on Ryker because his response to me was fair enough, but at the same time I still wanted to reread posts to be sure.
This adds to my point that the huge wall on Ryker was way more of a "one of these two is scum" instead of genuinely wanting Ryker gone. This is shows that he never actually responded to Ryker's response to his vote because there just wasn't much to be said.
Except you (Pokechu) did.
Last night your randomly quoted him saying you’ve posted here more then him.
You also did this with shishoe day one.
You seem dead set on making sure people know your doing better then some users even though most of the time your posts have not been contributing heavily.
And that I dislike. It screams that you want to be noticed and viewed as town a little more than others imo and I don’t trust that.
Here's my problems with your posts. You've stuck with Laundry from the start for no real reason, and over these past two phases, there still isn't really one. You've put out flimsy reasoning, like "he's contributing to much!" To me your just going after Laundry to go after him. He's a big mafia target if town because he's active and offers a lot of discussions. You've seemingly been trying to bus him for little to no reason.
On top of that you make completely 180s in your judging in only a matter of posts with again not offering reasons that logically make sense. You have taken to targeting players when it can make you look better. "Oh Nabe's gone inactive better say he's not town now" "Z came after me and people don't like his opinion? I can use that!"
To me your posts have just screamed that your trying to take advantage of the different situations that have arised this game. You appear to be contributing but your still not offering much. And I'll give you credit for saying you don't have the best quality, but your current quality just feels like the bare minimum to me. You seem to be trying to just fly under the radar and I don't like this. You've had plenty of chances to offer strong fundations and stick to one viewpoint, but yours are all over the place. This feels like a scum just trying to cast suspicion everywhere before getting lynch, something I've seen happen numerous times.
I don't trust it. If you flip town then so be it, I'll accept I was wrong. But Right now I can't buy that you have full town intentions.
And again maybe this post will feel wrong to people, but I tried my best and I'm fine with that if it meant I tried to help town. We'll see soon enough. In the meantime, I'm always down for discussion and I'll continue trying to make good analysis and improve myself so I don't seem like a fool to people here. because I do try to get better and gain ,ore understanding each game, but it seems I'm not quite there yet.
Anyway:
Vote: Pokechu
This is where things get really screwy with me. Z has said multiple times at this point in the game that he viewed Pokechu as town and that he didn't want Pokechu lynched, but out of every person on the wagon for Pokechu when he actually got lynched, the only one that actually made a deal about Pokechu potentially being scum after his outburst was Z. Ryker showed some thoughts regarding AtE vs content, but he ultimately agreed that the lynch pool just really sucked.
This wagon is pretty much like the ones with Ryker, eventually Laundry, Soup, Kantrip... In terms of the actual reasoning, this isn't stronger or weaker than the other ones he's posted. Aside from his posts after the phase with the flip in mind, I have no reason to genuinely believe he didn't want Pokechu lynched after posting a case like this. Not buying a "I was pretty much forced to post this" narrative either in a world where he wasn't even in the lynch pool.
Alright let's shed some light and thoughts.
All of these soup and laundry interactions are quite interesting and very telling to me. Laundry and Ryker really didn't seem too have any problems with lynching me. But they were the bigger factors in deciding shishoe's fate instead. Not to mention that there was enough for people to lynch me day one.
But how convenient they didn't. The switched to get the more innocent townie gone. Shishoe really wasn't making himself look scummy. Hell I flat out said he shouldn't be the day one lynch and I was right.
The problem here is three things:
1) The Ryker comment doesn't stand up at all. Ryker literally hard-walled the Z vote for Kantrip. This doesn't just carry over to Kantrip, though. Why would Laundry push for Z in a scenario where his vote is already on another scum read AND one of the strongest players is hard-walling a Z lynch? Who would actually go "We can lynch one of my scum reads OR we can go another one that is getting walled off"? This logic just doesn't stand in reality, especially when people were meta defending Z way more than Shishoe. Granted, Shishoe was getting the defense as well, but it was way weaker and the people that cared about it weren't being as vocal.
2) Part of above, but Shishoe wasn't "more innocent". Dude parked his vote on Pokechu for **** posting and dipped. There was not a single thing "townie" about his play, especially to a player like Laundry who had no meta. These types of comments from players like you and Kantrip really just aren't considering how players felt at the time vs how they could feel now.
3) Laundry saying "we can't get Z" was at around 10-15 minutes left at deadline. Like... that should be enough said. Maybe if Z was his only scum read it'd have merit, but that isn't the case here. In a world where the two above points stand, why on earth does Laundry go "no, don't lynch Shishoe, let's go Z instead" who only has Kantrip in the vote?
Now here's how I think we got to today. Laundry being scum realized they could take advantage of the situation with me at hand. Why put me in the pool, when I would be such an easy lynch target today? Scum kills two townies with one stone.
This is something I've had happen to me before because a lot of people just don't like my plays, not that I really care when I'm always town. But if you want to see this exact play in action. Check out Star Wars Mafia.
So basically the second to last day, I had Nabe pinned against the wall as the godfather, and pointed out how he was behind every trick played throughout the game and things like that. The lynch came down to me and Alpha because Nabe was pushing it and getting town to join cause of his notoriety as a mafia player. I was about to be lynched in when the votes were tied because Nabe had a voting abuse power. He then tried to bargain and got the town to save me during the tie breaker only to set me up for the lynch the next day because it was that easy due the power he held over town despite being so scummy.
And damn do I see parallels here. Hell even @#HBC | Soup (why the hell can't he be tagged?) agrees but can't commit to lynching him. Laundry is controlling the vote and make use of
#HBC | Ryker
and his contributions to the town. He's playing off of Ryker to try and seem conspicuous. If he's "contributing" he's town to everyone. But this should not be how we define town.
I've seen this same scum strat used for Nintendozone users who were very popular and thus people had an unconscious habit of automatically trusting (thanks psychology) but they were scum, but due to their popularity and them seemingly contributing for town they weren't guilty what so ever. For this I think I'm able to piece things together.
This has been something Z has done all game, but this is the point where it shows the most. Making a comparison to a completely different player in a completely different scenario to try to push Laundry. This isn't Z pushing Laundry against the wall, this isn't him pointing everything out, this is Z's first post saying Laundry is scum. Laundry has no reason to even be in this scenario because Z was focused on Ryker and Pokechu the day before, and Kantrip before that.
Here soup says something town should absolutely take note of. We can't afford many mislynches, and when shishoe had people reading him town, he shouldn't have been gone day 1, same way nzoners have read me as town and stated how I haven't played any differently.
Mafia gain too much by mislynching townies here. Which is why I'm postive one of our biggest speakers is scum so that they can mislynch townies while staying town in people's eyes.
In this game we should really consider things and talk first. however all 3 phases, everyone has said **** it lets all vote this one user right away and leave it at that.
Which if it keeps up will screw town over. Hell if we don't lynch scum today, I don't think wins. Mafia will manipulate the remaining players too well.
Convenient that something very important was missed. This doesn't add up to me. I can't buy that someone supposedly heavily reading the thread missed something this crucial from kantrip. When it was super easy to lynch me day one and hell there was more merit then. Yet this didn't happen..
I already explained what I think is going on, but I don't like this post at all by laundry. Its a slip to me.
Gotta agree with soup here. That above soup post is made and all laundry basically has to say is godamnit soup? Laundry should have spoken up way before now and even with this response they don't address soup's comment or even address it really in future posts. Again I think that's a slip.
Did you not read my last wall? I explained full well why I felt Ryker was more likely.
Hell the only reason I wrote that wall was to try and get people off my back. I was deemed as scum for wanting pokechu who was the easiest as **** scum to get, to be lynched the next day if not that day.
One of my initial posts I flat out said I doubt pokechu is on the pool as scum. That be so ****ing stupid of mafia that it be an easy scum lynch. But I was forced into voting for them basically because no one wanted to here otherwise. Especially Ryker and Laundry who like usually were offering the bigger points for it.
That's why I wanted Ryker. When I saw that pool, I knew Ryker or Laundry were scum and that lynching one of them would easilly explain so much on this game based on their flip.
Yesterday I was more sure it was Ryker. Maybe it was, but right now I'm thinking that it's to clean up Laundry's act. I have not liked a single post he's made today and his soup interactions I am surprised have not had anyone else asking questions because was literally cast for me at the start. And after that nothing else seemed to matter in this thread. But as a townie I'm not allowing that. I'll fight to end and make damn sure I do my best to expose scum where I see it. Have I been right so far?
Technically no, but I also didn't want a pokechu vote for the pool because it felt to obvious, and I was positive shishoe was town. None of my scum reads have been lynched because the second I say something people don't like I'm attacked which is bull **** imo.
But I'm used to it. Regardless I'm fully confident Laundry is the scum we're looking for.
The general problem I have with the rest of this falls into 2 categories:
1) He does the nit-picky stuff like with Ryker except this time it's mostly just inaccurate. Examples are where he says Laundry just responds with goddammit when he should have asked for clarification sooner. Not only is attacking that type of post very specific, it's also really misrepresenting Laundry's play. Laundry has been on Soup for day 2 because he didn't feel like Soup had done enough with his scum reads. This just doesn't line up here.
2) It's really deep into the meta/wifom pool and it doesn't consider retrospective at all. As a townie I generally make sure that when I read things from ex: D1, I consider what a town player would think at the time while considering scum intent. This post shows that Z didn't do this at all when thinking about Shishoe's slot. In the position at the time, there were maybe 2 people defending the slot, the slot itself didn't do much of anything, and what it did do would be suspect to any logical player. I can understand taking the "easy" approach, but trying to sell Shishoe as obv town is just trying to make his scum read seem stronger than it actually is.
With all of this being said, the strongest get-away I grab from this post is that there is little reason for Z to actually think Laundry is scummy aside from pushing the idea that one of the power-house players is scum. The actual reasons presented are extremely weak, reaching, and don't give enough actual evidence to support the idea of Laundry scum as much as the idea that one of two players has to be scum. This isn't scum hunting. This is pushing an agenda.
I don't have too much to say about the Soup vote itself. It was probably the most understandable vote he's made this game because it's strictly self-preservation in a situation where everyone would be in that boat. Soup was obviously there. The fact that he didn't go for Nabe at all though is a big problem and will bring my to my last point against him:
He doesn't hold his scum reads to the same standard as himself. He went into the Soup lynch for information and to further push his Nabe lynch. In the Laundry wall, this is VERY comparable to where people voted Shishoe. Soup is obviously townie now, was not obviously townie at all at the time, and was a VERY easy lynch to push. This is literally the same situation Laundry was in except instead of having power players here, we didn't have any. He was one of the primary players there.
The biggest other example of this is the pushes he's made on people for not being here. He made this push on Ryker the most, but he attacked Kantrip since, in Z's own words, Kantrip tried to push him for having a life. The reason why I view something like this as scummy is because of the fact that having these types of inconsistencies makes his scum reads come across as more forced, especially coming from a player that made a wall on Pokechu and claimed afterwards that Pokechu was a townread + the general logic used to push the idea of Laundry scum that he's still sticking to.
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TL;DR
The biggest reasons I'm voting Z are as follows:
1) His play comes across as very self-preserved. This is fine if you're a primary voting choice, but this has happened every phase, even when he wasn't in the pool. It's not just with votes either, but the way he's handled prior lynches. Calling Shishoe free town and Pokechu a town read now doesn't line up with his logic during the time where those two were actually lynched, and the fact that he's been pushing these points so much and is even using this as logic to vote ex: Laundry is very concerning. The meta defenses also line up with this, and he's been doing that since page 3-4.
2) I don't think he genuinely thinks Laundry is scum as much as he's put Ryker/Laundry into a "one of them is scum scenario" strictly due to mechanics and being power players. However, using meta and very weak (sometimes incorrect) logic, he's pushing this read to be more than it actually is. The reason why I think this is more malicious than just townie trying to narrow the pool is because of how he's trying to get Laundry lynched. Ex: Laundry pushing mislynches is one of his bigger points, but Z doesn't consider retrospective at all with Shishoe's wagon, Pokechu was pretty universally considered the best lynch, and Soup was literally asking for it (and Z voted there too). Laundry being the target for this type of push doesn't show genuine scum hunting.
3) The last 4 paragraphs of my wall. I'd literally copy-paste them, but they're right above the dashed line.
Vote: Z
Answering questions in a bit.
Dooms
#HBC | Red Ryu
Z25
