Etrian Nomination Mafia - Endgame: Until the Day the Adventurers Rise Again

[Kantrip]

As in, are they aligned? I think it's likely to be one or the other, not both. Koops' vote didn't seem off to me. At the time I was trying to see if Fire would swap to Soup, which would have needed Koops' vote to get a lynch through. But it seemed like Koops had comfortably picked Fire to get through, and wasn't paying attention to the thread. So that initial interaction doesn't look like partners.

K let me get this straight.

You think Ryu and disfunk are setting up your lynch in LyLo, but that only one of them can be scum? And you think Joey and Z25 are both town, correct? What's your read on Ryker? If Ryu's scum, who are his partners?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm seriously entertaining your offer because you and Nabe are one of the pairings I'm confident are not both scum. I'm not confident that one of you definitely holds scum, but you seem willing to stake the entire game on your confidence that Nabe is scum. So you're fine with being lynched toDay, yes?

Also, assume you are actually correct on Nabe. Let's say we lynch you toDay and then Nabe toMorrow and Nabe flips scum. Who are his partners? Are one of them up for lynch toDay?

Of Nabe flipped scum, it’s Joey among the pool.

dumb or crazy idea, but it’s more I am thinking. If I lynched Z to live. Would that help town win or would I just die and we all lose.

thats what my problem is here. I’m thinking long term.

 

[Dooms]

Where do you go if Z25 flips town? What if he flips scum?

Kind of funny that this comes immediately after I say that I don't think going "x or y is scum" is the solution here. Genuinely funny, not a shot at you.

Regardless, Ryu/Disfunk would probably be the logical choices with the type of stuff they're trying to pull today. Probably Ryu over Disfunk. Ryu has had scum reads but he's hardly been sticking to them at all over plays that "he doesn't care are good/bad". I agree with Nabe's point on Disfunk and sacrificing themselves for me and then immediately saying "I'd rather go for Ryu/Nabe if people think that's a pair" afterwards is pretty bad. I don't consider Z's scum reads much here because as I said, they're REALLY badly expressed.

If Z flips scum, Disfunk first and then maybe you? I think I'd see Disfunk's flip and then consider from there tbh. I don't like how you got off of Z for the Ryker swap when the vote itself was straight ass and it made sense for Z to do so at the time regardless of alignment.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

^the above is exactly why I want to see myself get lynched into Nabe’s death.

i don’t feel good about how Joey has been pretty hands off with Nabe either.

 

[Kantrip]

Kind of funny that this comes immediately after I say that I don't think going "x or y is scum" is the solution here. Genuinely funny, not a shot at you.

Regardless, Ryu/Disfunk would probably be the logical choices with the type of stuff they're trying to pull today. Probably Ryu over Disfunk. Ryu has had scum reads but he's hardly been sticking to them at all over plays that "he doesn't care are good/bad". I agree with Nabe's point on Disfunk and sacrificing themselves for me and then immediately saying "I'd rather go for Ryu/Nabe if people think that's a pair" afterwards is pretty bad. I don't consider Z's scum reads much here because as I said, they're REALLY badly expressed.

If Z flips scum, Disfunk first and then maybe you? I think I'd see Disfunk's flip and then consider from there tbh. I don't like how you got off of Z for the Ryker swap when the vote itself was straight *** and it made sense for Z to do so at the time regardless of alignment.

So you think disfunk is scummy regardless of the flip we get toDay, then? Is there something that would make you want Nabe toMorrow?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It’s a hard problem overall.

on raw play I do want Z dead, his day 2 wasn’t good and how he had been jumping around doesn’t sit well with me.

then the question of how the disconnect

Kind of funny that this comes immediately after I say that I don't think going "x or y is scum" is the solution here. Genuinely funny, not a shot at you.

Regardless, Ryu/Disfunk would probably be the logical choices with the type of stuff they're trying to pull today. Probably Ryu over Disfunk. Ryu has had scum reads but he's hardly been sticking to them at all over plays that "he doesn't care are good/bad". I agree with Nabe's point on Disfunk and sacrificing themselves for me and then immediately saying "I'd rather go for Ryu/Nabe if people think that's a pair" afterwards is pretty bad. I don't consider Z's scum reads much here because as I said, they're REALLY badly expressed.

If Z flips scum, Disfunk first and then maybe you? I think I'd see Disfunk's flip and then consider from there tbh. I don't like how you got off of Z for the Ryker swap when the vote itself was straight *** and it made sense for Z to do so at the time regardless of alignment.

Ryker said the same thing with me and Nabr but you ignored it.

why?

 

[Dooms]

My townflip opens ideas to me, and I find it to be good avenues.

here the problem. I’m trying to figure out if lynching Z is better or me and Nabe do this rodeo again tomorrow.

i’m thinking long term in the sense if that is the case do we not get anything to answer the question? Because while I am leaning scum on z i’m still questioning you and Laundry. Z lynch doesn’t fix this, and of flips town most people will lean on me.

thats where my dilemma is.

Why do you think we as a town go after Nabe if you flip town and encourage your own lynch for it? We still have me, Z, Laundry, Disfunk in the pool that would all be possible lynches at that point, and you sitting on Nabe due to him being an AFK slot and pretty much nothing else doesn't set sail to the idea of lynching him. We have no reason to stick to your idea of "me vs him" once D5 actually starts to become a thing, especially as Lylo and the potential for quick lynches by a full scum team.

 

[Kantrip]

Has Laundry voted or indicated which of Ryu/Z25 he prefers for toDay?

 

[Z25]

I've been avoiding walls due to how much people hate them, but at this point I don't feel like I'll get my full thoughts across without having one. TL;DR will be at the end for what I'd post in non-wall form, but I still want to have all of my thoughts out there.

I've said so much about Z25 at this point, but people still question me on it and are still wondering if I'd put slots like ex: Laundry, Kantrip, Ryker, Disfunk over Z. Shishoe is the only slot I would have put with Z, but that was due to the situation at the time where Z sitting on Ryker was more of a "scummy but could easily be town with bad logic" type scenario. Shishoe was in a similar boat at the time except Shishoe was sitting on Pokechu for something worse and was someone I was more comfortable with dropping.

I had problems with his D1 vote at the time due to how problematic it is to sit on an AFK target when you have actual suspects and how the initial vote came across, but that point doesn't really hold up to the rest of my thoughts. It's still there, but not a strong aspect of my read at this point. The other problems I had early on were that he would defend himself with meta and kind of stroke his ego saying like "Seph voted me early in x game that doesn't matter, but he ended up being scum" while doing so. More on that later.



This is where my current problem with the slot begins. "Their approach to me made no sense and they just seem to want to lynch me to lynch me" when Kantrip communicated efficiently why Z was suspect and showed that he agreed with my logic just makes this point unrealistic. Sitting on this until the Kantrip & Ryker dialogue is very suspect when the actual reasoning for being there has little evidence actually backing it up. If this was just a day 1 thing, I'd be fine brushing it off, but this goes into day 2 and his votes from there on out just aren't much better. While I'm not one to push OMGUS, this is something I'd consider to be self-preserverance if connected to other things... which is definitely the case.



The only big post from Z before making this statement is that he said Shishoe wasn't contributing and didn't have the right to tell Pokechu to contribute when he wasn't contributing himself.

This starts the line of "I didn't want to lynch -insert townie that got lynched-" chain of statements. This is also the first point in the game with very obvious self-preservation shown. This is where things like his Seph comments come into play. It's just pushing a narrative where he may not have great logic, but he's still town regardless because even if he has flawed logic, his head has been in the right place in terms of who he has/hasn't really wanted gone.





These were the last posts on these two before Kantrip and Ryker had their bromance. I want to note about the first quote that while he says this about Kantrip, he also said beforehand that he also thought one of Ryker/Laundry could be scum due to strict mechanics.

Afterwards:



I don't think the actual flip here by itself is suspect, don't get me wrong. Kantrip really put himself in a townie light here, and it's why I didn't think anything of Kantrip dropping his Z read a bit on this.

The problem here though goes back to the logic. "not fact checking right" is a very nit-picky thing to push, and I said this at the time. This point specifically was really bad due to the fact that Pokechu sat on Shishoe, disappeared, and then voted Shishoe again 4 minutes before deadline. Literally half of the players active were like "wtf Pokechu that's sus" even though he was the first one to vote there. This doesn't make someone scummy, and if it did, it wouldn't apply to Ryker specifically. This on top of pushing Ryker for being inactive when Ryker literally wasn't here due to being at a FGC event (with me and Laundry both confirming it) just makes this push worthless.

So with that in mind, the scummiest part about this is that due to the lack of logic and genuine evidence behind those points, this vote comes across as "I need to push one of the big contributers" instead of genuinely having reason to believe Ryker is scummy. I think this point is more evident when he switches to Laundry, but due to the quote below, I still think it shows very strongly here.



This adds to my point that the huge wall on Ryker was way more of a "one of these two is scum" instead of genuinely wanting Ryker gone. This is shows that he never actually responded to Ryker's response to his vote because there just wasn't much to be said.





This is where things get really screwy with me. Z has said multiple times at this point in the game that he viewed Pokechu as town and that he didn't want Pokechu lynched, but out of every person on the wagon for Pokechu when he actually got lynched, the only one that actually made a deal about Pokechu potentially being scum after his outburst was Z. Ryker showed some thoughts regarding AtE vs content, but he ultimately agreed that the lynch pool just really sucked.

This wagon is pretty much like the ones with Ryker, eventually Laundry, Soup, Kantrip... In terms of the actual reasoning, this isn't stronger or weaker than the other ones he's posted. Aside from his posts after the phase with the flip in mind, I have no reason to genuinely believe he didn't want Pokechu lynched after posting a case like this. Not buying a "I was pretty much forced to post this" narrative either in a world where he wasn't even in the lynch pool.



The problem here is three things:

1) The Ryker comment doesn't stand up at all. Ryker literally hard-walled the Z vote for Kantrip. This doesn't just carry over to Kantrip, though. Why would Laundry push for Z in a scenario where his vote is already on another scum read AND one of the strongest players is hard-walling a Z lynch? Who would actually go "We can lynch one of my scum reads OR we can go another one that is getting walled off"? This logic just doesn't stand in reality, especially when people were meta defending Z way more than Shishoe. Granted, Shishoe was getting the defense as well, but it was way weaker and the people that cared about it weren't being as vocal.

2) Part of above, but Shishoe wasn't "more innocent". Dude parked his vote on Pokechu for **** posting and dipped. There was not a single thing "townie" about his play, especially to a player like Laundry who had no meta. These types of comments from players like you and Kantrip really just aren't considering how players felt at the time vs how they could feel now.

3) Laundry saying "we can't get Z" was at around 10-15 minutes left at deadline. Like... that should be enough said. Maybe if Z was his only scum read it'd have merit, but that isn't the case here. In a world where the two above points stand, why on earth does Laundry go "no, don't lynch Shishoe, let's go Z instead" who only has Kantrip in the vote?



This has been something Z has done all game, but this is the point where it shows the most. Making a comparison to a completely different player in a completely different scenario to try to push Laundry. This isn't Z pushing Laundry against the wall, this isn't him pointing everything out, this is Z's first post saying Laundry is scum. Laundry has no reason to even be in this scenario because Z was focused on Ryker and Pokechu the day before, and Kantrip before that.



The general problem I have with the rest of this falls into 2 categories:

1) He does the nit-picky stuff like with Ryker except this time it's mostly just inaccurate. Examples are where he says Laundry just responds with goddammit when he should have asked for clarification sooner. Not only is attacking that type of post very specific, it's also really misrepresenting Laundry's play. Laundry has been on Soup for day 2 because he didn't feel like Soup had done enough with his scum reads. This just doesn't line up here.

2) It's really deep into the meta/wifom pool and it doesn't consider retrospective at all. As a townie I generally make sure that when I read things from ex: D1, I consider what a town player would think at the time while considering scum intent. This post shows that Z didn't do this at all when thinking about Shishoe's slot. In the position at the time, there were maybe 2 people defending the slot, the slot itself didn't do much of anything, and what it did do would be suspect to any logical player. I can understand taking the "easy" approach, but trying to sell Shishoe as obv town is just trying to make his scum read seem stronger than it actually is.

With all of this being said, the strongest get-away I grab from this post is that there is little reason for Z to actually think Laundry is scummy aside from pushing the idea that one of the power-house players is scum. The actual reasons presented are extremely weak, reaching, and don't give enough actual evidence to support the idea of Laundry scum as much as the idea that one of two players has to be scum. This isn't scum hunting. This is pushing an agenda.

I don't have too much to say about the Soup vote itself. It was probably the most understandable vote he's made this game because it's strictly self-preservation in a situation where everyone would be in that boat. Soup was obviously there. The fact that he didn't go for Nabe at all though is a big problem and will bring my to my last point against him:

He doesn't hold his scum reads to the same standard as himself. He went into the Soup lynch for information and to further push his Nabe lynch. In the Laundry wall, this is VERY comparable to where people voted Shishoe. Soup is obviously townie now, was not obviously townie at all at the time, and was a VERY easy lynch to push. This is literally the same situation Laundry was in except instead of having power players here, we didn't have any. He was one of the primary players there.

The biggest other example of this is the pushes he's made on people for not being here. He made this push on Ryker the most, but he attacked Kantrip since, in Z's own words, Kantrip tried to push him for having a life. The reason why I view something like this as scummy is because of the fact that having these types of inconsistencies makes his scum reads come across as more forced, especially coming from a player that made a wall on Pokechu and claimed afterwards that Pokechu was a townread + the general logic used to push the idea of Laundry scum that he's still sticking to.

------

TL;DR

The biggest reasons I'm voting Z are as follows:

1) His play comes across as very self-preserved. This is fine if you're a primary voting choice, but this has happened every phase, even when he wasn't in the pool. It's not just with votes either, but the way he's handled prior lynches. Calling Shishoe free town and Pokechu a town read now doesn't line up with his logic during the time where those two were actually lynched, and the fact that he's been pushing these points so much and is even using this as logic to vote ex: Laundry is very concerning. The meta defenses also line up with this, and he's been doing that since page 3-4.

2) I don't think he genuinely thinks Laundry is scum as much as he's put Ryker/Laundry into a "one of them is scum scenario" strictly due to mechanics and being power players. However, using meta and very weak (sometimes incorrect) logic, he's pushing this read to be more than it actually is. The reason why I think this is more malicious than just townie trying to narrow the pool is because of how he's trying to get Laundry lynched. Ex: Laundry pushing mislynches is one of his bigger points, but Z doesn't consider retrospective at all with Shishoe's wagon, Pokechu was pretty universally considered the best lynch, and Soup was literally asking for it (and Z voted there too). Laundry being the target for this type of push doesn't show genuine scum hunting.

3) The last 4 paragraphs of my wall. I'd literally copy-paste them, but they're right above the dashed line.

Vote: Z

Answering questions in a bit.

This is long wall. I obviously can’t respond to everything here, but I’ll cover some things.

For 1) I can’t see how you can’t legitimately tell that in games of mafia there are not standard plays for scum. It’s very easy to look at games and see that there’s certain notions scum will use. It happens and you can’t say it doesn’t.

So why do you have a problem with that? Ryker literally said that soups outburst is a scum play he’s seen several times to make a scum seem town.

You gonna say he’s wrobg too and that there is no similar play choices for scum in games? I don’t think you can.

2) in relation to pokechu:

I’m less inclined to buy that pokechu is scum.

After the shishoe argument and shish flipping town. I don’t see pokechu attracting attention as scum that way. It would make them an obvious choice for the lynch today if scum. And here we are with them being on this list.

My reasoning was super solid on pokechu but after the shishoe problem yesterday I don’t scum would want this much attention drawn to pokechu if they are scum buddies with him.

It take a big brain for someone to think that this would reverse psychology us into thinking pokechu is innocent by drawing so much attention to him, but I don’t think that’s the case.

Mafias pick is much likelier to be someone who can just fly by the radar. And who disappeared yesterday after I started questioning their behavior? Kantrip.

And who’s in the vote pool today? Kantrip.

I’m doubling down on my points from last phase. Kantrip is scum based on their behavior change and their super filmsy and quite frankly stupid reasoning to get rid of me yesterday. When I started fighting back he vanished and that spells scum to me.

But I’m curious as to what everyone else thinks

did you even read this or? Or see why I voted and made a pokechu Wall? I’m not posting the later for the 4th time but if you read you know and see why. There was no other option when I was basically forced to vote for him. Your looking for the smallest issues and trying to make them bigger then they are.

3) sure your right I never said shishoe was town my bad. I thought I did. But there is a reason I didn’t vote for him which is why I said I didn’t think he was the play.

Lastly for now. If I was scum do you really think I’d **** up so much?

Can you honestly sit here and say my team wouldn’t offer good suggestions and help me stand out if I needed it?

Because that’s exactly what would happen. And I’ve seen and lynched enough scum to know how to play as one.

My views all come from my town perspective. Sometimes they aren’t the best worded but there’s a decent chance I’m right.


So I wonder what would you think if my reads if nabe or laundry were lynched and were scum? Would you really hold so dearly that I’m scum? I understand my unorthodox methods aren’t liked by Dd gamers, but I would think that all the users who have played with me before and said my plays are all town and just like how I normally play, would at least offer reconsideration.

Regardless still what would you say if all my reads were right?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The problem is that I am extremely confident in Nabr scum right, extremely confident.

Nabe had zero plans on who the team might be is and handling short term thoughts.

i do need to Reread Z and Joey.

biggest problem is that, if it is not Joey then Z is the fit And vice versa.

I don’t think it’s disfunk or Kantrip.

I do think it is Laundry/Nabe at the very least.

 

[Dooms]

Ryker said the same thing with me and Nabr but you ignored it.

why?

The actual point of going x -> y because they're not aligned is very bad logic as I said and Ryker is a part of that. I'm not talking about this with you because of that, though. I'm talking about this with you because giving your presumed town slot up on the assumption that we lynch your scum read is actually just stupid and comes across as wifom bull**** that has been in this game non-stop and needs to go away.

 

[Dooms]

Well that’s a shame we killed the mascot. I’m sorry shishoe, I really didn’t think you were the play though

Just a quick correction for you Z, this is the first time you said Shishoe wasn't the play. This was after Shishoe was lynched and flipped.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why do you think we as a town go after Nabe if you flip town and encourage your own lynch for it? We still have me, Z, Laundry, Disfunk in the pool that would all be possible lynches at that point, and you sitting on Nabe due to him being an AFK slot and pretty much nothing else doesn't set sail to the idea of lynching him. We have no reason to stick to your idea of "me vs him" once D5 actually starts to become a thing, especially as Lylo and the potential for quick lynches by a full scum team.

I don’t think it is disfunk.

i think Laundry is likely scum.

Let me ask you this, Ryker is not ok with Nabe, Disfunk is not either, would Kantrip go that way? Possible.

Then the question is, who is town between you and Z.

Laundry ain’t going to, if he is a mate, so what to do think will happen?

Me versus Nabe? it’s a question on a lot of people’s minds. Or do you think we are both town? Your posts imply otherwise.

i’m thinking what is good for town st this Jin tire for Lylo.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

K let me get this straight.

You think Ryu and disfunk are setting up your lynch in LyLo, but that only one of them can be scum? And you think Joey and Z25 are both town, correct? What's your read on Ryker? If Ryu's scum, who are his partners?

Ryu suffers from being the best lynch in the pool, but on partners I'd have to reevaluate other reads for sure. I would have said Ryker, but I expected him to vote Z25 and instead he voted Ryu. So I think I'd reevaluate my reads on you and Joey to start. Funk is a possible partner, but that's getting down a questionable road. Laundry is a possibility with both Ryu and Funk, but I really like him toDay in particular how much he's agreeing with me.

Ryker's a chameleon. Do you want him? I'd discuss it.

 

[Kantrip]

I don’t think it is disfunk.

i think Laundry is likely scum.

Let me ask you this, Ryker is not ok with Nabe, Disfunk is not either, would Kantrip go that way? Possible.

Then the question is, who is town between you and Z.

Laundry ain’t going to, if he is a mate, so what to do think will happen?

Me versus Nabe? it’s a question on a lot of people’s minds. Or do you think we are both town? Your posts imply otherwise.

i’m thinking what is good for town st this Jin tire for Lylo.

What made you less confident in Z25 scum? I recall yesterDay you wanted him super dead and Nabe wasn't your #1 priority. Now you seem iffy between Joey and Z25 and want Nabe 100%. Curious what changed.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The actual point of going x -> y because they're not aligned is very bad logic as I said and Ryker is a part of that. I'm not talking about this with you because of that, though. I'm talking about this with you because giving your presumed town slot up on the assumption that we lynch your scum read is actually just stupid and comes across as wifom bull**** that has been in this game non-stop and needs to go away.

I’m considering this for long term info as an Idea.

i’m not confident between you and Z atm, so I am thinking while normally anti town and I railed against it before.

I think the info is good long term where as Z, would we just repeat today again?

 

[Kantrip]

Ryu suffers from being the best lynch in the pool, but on partners I'd have to reevaluate other reads for sure. I would have said Ryker, but I expected him to vote Z25 and instead he voted Ryu. So I think I'd reevaluate my reads on you and Joey to start. Funk is a possible partner, but that's getting down a questionable road. Laundry is a possibility with both Ryu and Funk, but I really like him toDay in particular how much he's agreeing with me.

Ryker's a chameleon. Do you want him? I'd discuss it.

I think Ryker's frustration with soup was genuine. I'm less convinced about his back and forth with me Day 2 than a lot of people seem to be, but I don't have a problem with it either. I just feel like we wasted time and space and didn't really accomplish anything except for helping people read my slot. I can't see him on a team with Laundry or Ryu, and I think his behaviour regarding Z25 is more consistent than Laundry's. If I was in LyLo with Laundry and Ryker I would lynch Laundry and be okay with losing to scumRyker if that's the way the cards fell. I am not entertaining him toDay either as a result.

Would you lynch Joey toDay? Especially because you seem to have him in your quite small pool of people that could be scum with Ryu, and I personally think he's even more likely scum if Ryu isn't.

 

[Kantrip]

Dooms - Please respond to my recent questions regarding disfunk and Nabe.

 

[Dooms]

This is long wall. I obviously can’t respond to everything here, but I’ll cover some things.

For 1) I can’t see how you can’t legitimately tell that in games of mafia there are not standard plays for scum. It’s very easy to look at games and see that there’s certain notions scum will use. It happens and you can’t say it doesn’t.

So why do you have a problem with that? Ryker literally said that soups outburst is a scum play he’s seen several times to make a scum seem town.

You gonna say he’s wrobg too and that there is no similar play choices for scum in games? I don’t think you can.

Ryker also said he wouldn't take Soup to lylo due to the ate stuff with saying "he wouldn't let Soup win" or something like that. He planned on getting rid of the slot regardless of alignment, which kind of made it clear that it was partially a policy lynch. I don't fault you for voting Soup though, it's your other votes that are a problem.

2) in relation to pokechu:

did you even read this or? Or see why I voted and made a pokechu Wall? I’m not posting the later for the 4th time but if you read you know and see why. There was no other option when I was basically forced to vote for him. Your looking for the smallest issues and trying to make them bigger then they are.

"why you voted/made the Pokechu wall" doesn't matter if you go into it after the flip and not when you actually make the posts saying you didn't like Pokechu's play.

Also, pointing to something you say at the beginning of Day 2 and then pointing to your actual vote at the end of the day and expecting me to assume your thoughts can't change after you make a post saying clearly that you don't like Pokechu's play doesn't give me reassurance.

Lastly for now. If I was scum do you really think I’d **** up so much?

Can you honestly sit here and say my team wouldn’t offer good suggestions and help me stand out if I needed it?

Because that’s exactly what would happen. And I’ve seen and lynched enough scum to know how to play as one.

My views all come from my town perspective. Sometimes they aren’t the best worded but there’s a decent chance I’m right.

Not going to dig into the WIFOM here. I don't know your scum mates. There are players that would feed stuff to you, and there are definitely some that wouldn't. I don't expect Ryker to spoon feed you on how to play. I'd expect a little more leniency from ex: Disfunk/Nabe. It depends on the team. That's not something you defend yourself with.

This is one of the reasons why I hate your slot. Most of your defenses and the defenses on your slot are "can I really be THAT bad with my logic?", but here you are pushing Laundry with horrible logic, sitting on Ryker for a whole phase prior, making a wall on Pokechu and then following the next phase saying you town read him pointing to early day 2... It just doesn't work like that.

So I wonder what would you think if my reads if nabe or laundry were lynched and were scum? Would you really hold so dearly that I’m scum? I understand my unorthodox methods aren’t liked by Dd gamers, but I would think that all the users who have played with me before and said my plays are all town and just like how I normally play, would at least offer reconsideration.

Regardless still what would you say if all my reads were right?

I'll be the first to admit that if we lynched Laundry and Laundry flipped scum, I would drop my read on you. Like... straight up.

That aside, this is still WIFOM stuff I'm not going to dive into when there is no reason for me to as it stands. It's something I'll consider if you flip town, but until you flip, why am I going to sit here and think about what if's when your play has been this bad?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Gonna sleep on this, need a cleaner head.

throwong ideas at the wall and seeing what I can gather and think with what people tell me.

I want to recall end of day 3 Joey and Z a bit and answer a few things and then think of my idea is full moron or not.

 

[Dooms]

So you think disfunk is scummy regardless of the flip we get toDay, then? Is there something that would make you want Nabe toMorrow?

I think Disfunk could roll either way at this point, yes.

I'm not against a Nabe lynch in a world where Z isn't there. Nabe goes on pretty much any scum team, Nabe hasn't been here, and while his posts today are fine and I agree with some of them, that doesn't make up for the fact that he's been completely gone for 3 days straight and is now diving into pushing scum teams in a phase before lylo.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What made you less confident in Z25 scum? I recall yesterDay you wanted him super dead and Nabe wasn't your #1 priority. Now you seem iffy between Joey and Z25 and want Nabe 100%. Curious what changed.

Read his posts and I am wondering if it might be his thing on how he post. In general he’s jumping around a lot but I am thinking of why and where he is coming from.

Nabe also was super bugging me with his lack of a presence and in general giving nothing until now

 

[Kantrip]

I think Ryu and Joey's recent interactions look genuine and hard to fake as partners. The list of possible partners of Ryu is getting really small for me. I doubt he's with Joey, Ryker, Nabe, or disfunk. Him being with Z25 with how he went for him yesterDay would be strange too, as well as the fact that Z25 was on me D1 when Fire was one vote away from tying Shish and Z25 never voted for Shish.

Either Ryu is doing a good job distancing with 1 or more of his mates or he's town.

I am growing increasingly worried about the way Joey and Laundry have treated the Z25 slot. I still think Z25 was a viable person to at least try to lynch, at least in the same way Nabe and I tried to lynch soup. Considering Laundry and Joey scumread Z25 at that point, I don't like Laundry going along with Ryker saying it wasn't a viable lynch. Ryker at least has been consistent; he thought Z25 was town Day 1 and faltered on that read later in the game. With Joey, I still don't understand why he went for Shish Day 1 instead of Z25, especially when his case still includes a lot of stuff that made Z25 scummy Day 1. I don't think Shish did anything to warrant being lynched over Z25 from Laundry or Joey's perspective. The fact that Joey is still hammering the read through makes me think it wasn't that they're partners but rather that Z25 was a person to keep alive for an easy mislynch down the line whereas Shish was likely going to start playing Day 2 onwards and potentially become a universal townread.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Now I sleep.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

I agree with Nabe's point on Disfunk

In general? Or a specific point?

I think Ryker's frustration with soup was genuine. I'm less convinced about his back and forth with me Day 2 than a lot of people seem to be, but I don't have a problem with it either. I just feel like we wasted time and space and didn't really accomplish anything except for helping people read my slot. I can't see him on a team with Laundry or Ryu, and I think his behaviour regarding Z25 is more consistent than Laundry's. If I was in LyLo with Laundry and Ryker I would lynch Laundry and be okay with losing to scumRyker if that's the way the cards fell. I am not entertaining him toDay either as a result.

Would you lynch Joey toDay? Especially because you seem to have him in your quite small pool of people that could be scum with Ryu, and I personally think he's even more likely scum if Ryu isn't.

You don't think it's strange that Ryker wants Ryu over Z25 toDay? I might be skimming, I keep trying to go to bed and a few people posted walls in quick succession.

I don't think a Joey lynch is inherently flawed, but unlike all those other people with their bad scum dichotomies, Ryu/Funk is a really good one. And failing that I'd rather go Ryker. More to the point, I think Funk is a bit more likely scum than Ryu, and I don't see Funk/Joey.

 

[Dooms]

whereas Shish was likely going to start playing Day 2 onwards and potentially become a universal townread.

What reason do me/Laundry have to assume that Shish, the AFK pushing Pokechu for ****posting player, is going to be a universal townread? Not buying this logic here.

In general? Or a specific point?

The fact that the way Disfunk handled your wagon was suspect more than anything.

 

[Kantrip]

What reason do me/Laundry have to assume that Shish, the AFK pushing Pokechu for ****posting player, is going to be a universal townread? Not buying this logic here.



The fact that the way Disfunk handled your wagon was suspect more than anything.

Yes Shish was not active. Yes Shish was pushing Pokechu for meta reasons.

No I don't think those justify scumreading and voting Shish over where your vote was at the time. You had a way better case on Z25. I also don't think Laundry had a reason to stonewall a Z25 swing considering he was allegedly his second scumread. Him and Ryker were in the thread encouraging me to place a vote somewhere and not necessarily saying I had to choose between Shish and Fire. However, Z25 was the one that wasn't possible? I don't buy it.

 

[Dooms]

Considering Laundry and Joey scumread Z25 at that point, I don't like Laundry going along with Ryker saying it wasn't a viable lynch. Ryker at least has been consistent; he thought Z25 was town Day 1 and faltered on that read later in the game. With Joey, I still don't understand why he went for Shish Day 1 instead of Z25, especially when his case still includes a lot of stuff that made Z25 scummy Day 1.

Actually, I'll just take the bullet here.

Why are we scummy for this? You were in a similar boat with your reads except you were more stuck on Z vs Shishoe while I had more even reads with Shishoe and Z. Laundry is in a similar boat where he had Shishoe as more scummy but still had Z as a secondary option. I said the same thing in my wall to Z. Why do town Joey and Laundry go "I scum read both of these slots, lets go for the one that people are walling off and have meta defenses for" when the other one is literally coasting on a vote for **** posting and is more likely to actually get lynched due to that?

 

[Dooms]

FWIW I'm not hardcore pushing anything because I know both of my options are *** and they're both being defended by meta when I don't have any to fight with.

We've tried to get more out of Shishoe but they've made it pretty clear that they're coasting to day 2. That's scummy, but that's it. Very base level, very open for error, still want them gone.

Z is straight up scummy to me. All of his defense in regards to himself is "I just play weird" or "I think my logic is really sound, but other people view it as weird". His one push on Kantrip is comparing him to a completely different player based on how that different player voted him + attacking him for how he went about his RVS vote. It feels like he's focusing way more on himself and how people view him than actually playing the game and trying to get reads on people (and his read list imo further solidified this for me). I want him gone, but getting shut down with "he's fodder" makes pushing that a little unrealistic with the amount of active players when I was around.

This is the post I made when I came back from the problem I had. Z's push on you was between this vote and Shishoe.

I don't understand how you're not getting this. I was very open to lynching both, but I was accepting of the fact that no one wanted the lynch outside of me, you, and Laundry, especially considering at this point we were really close to deadline. Ryker walling it off but actually being fine with it isn't my fault or Laundry's, and you pushing that on us is just moronic.

 

[Dooms]

EBWOP: Z's push on you was between this post and my vote on Shishoe.

 

[Z25]

Yes Shish was not active. Yes Shish was pushing Pokechu for meta reasons.

No I don't think those justify scumreading and voting Shish over where your vote was at the time. You had a way better case on Z25. I also don't think Laundry had a reason to stonewall a Z25 swing considering he was allegedly his second scumread. Him and Ryker were in the thread encouraging me to place a vote somewhere and not necessarily saying I had to choose between Shish and Fire. However, Z25 was the one that wasn't possible? I don't buy it.

Somewhat off topic but also on topic.

You make good points that the lynch was there for me day one and day 3. Hell is still wasn’t liked day 2.

It’s been so easy to push me as a lynch that I think scum could be saving me for lylo. They’d have no problem selling my lynch.

The same way if you were scum you could have easily further pushed my lynch. Sure you and me voted for each other day one, but I think we both ha e better reads now. But from your side it was easy for you to bus me if scum and no one would question it.

This is why I think your town. Not that I’m seeing objections to that but I wanted to say I agree and am enjoying your contributions and wanted that for the record.

Anyway goodnight all. If you have questions go ahead and tag me.

Although I must I meant I think really ****ting on my plays is a bit harsh. Regardless of what you people here think my alignment is. Although at this point I’ve learned not to care. I won’t lie, my plays didn’t start out great but I think my logic content got a little better.
It’s been a tough game to read so I can’t be as on point. That’s more post game discussion though.

And lastly I feel like I should ask this.

Why do you guys ask me questions( specifically Ryker and Joey).

The small responses you guys have been given me when I log on and answer whatever I’m tagged for just feel like they are mostly ignored. So I don’t get why I answer to begin with. But again I’m always one to try and contribute so I respond.

 

[Kantrip]

Actually, I'll just take the bullet here.

Why are we scummy for this? You were in a similar boat with your reads except you were more stuck on Z vs Shishoe while I had more even reads with Shishoe and Z. Laundry is in a similar boat where he had Shishoe as more scummy but still had Z as a secondary option. I said the same thing in my wall to Z. Why do town Joey and Laundry go "I scum read both of these slots, lets go for the one that people are walling off and have meta defenses for" when the other one is literally coasting on a vote for **** posting and is more likely to actually get lynched due to that?

Laundry was on Shish really early and made it clear he thought Shish was more scummy than Z25, to my knowledge.

With you, I'm having trouble understanding why you switched to Shish when you did (it was point in the phase where Z wasn't off the table by any means) because I don't think the reasons to scumread Shish outweighed the reasons you had laid out for Z25 scum.

Laundry doesn't bother me for his reasoning for being on Shish, but rather the fact that he was adamant I had to move my vote off Z as he wasn't an option. I don't understand why a slot like soup or Fire was viable to move my vote to at the time but Z25 wasn't. The other slots in question didn't really have momentum in their favour either, and I doubt Laundry's reasoning was that we wouldn't be able to get a lynch without Ryker's support. Who knows if Pokechu/Fire/Shish (who were all around as far as I recall) would have supported a Z25 lynch? Along with me, you, and Laundry that would have been enough, and there might have been other people fine with it too? I only recall Nabe and Ryker townreading Z25 at the time, so Ryker making me pick someone else makes sense. Laundry backing him up on that doesn't.

Does that make sense now?

 

[Z25]

Actually the more I think about it, the worse joeys walk is.

A majority of his points are him signaling me or for things everyone is doing.

I already bought one example to the table being that Ryker has also been out here making connections to past games. And apparently because Joey likes Rykers slot he’s ok with that.

Then he’s complaining about my read and vote changes. We literally had people switching votes to different people and different reads all over the place yesterday.

Lastly hes just finding nitpicks that could easily be made for other people. Like my pokechu post for example where I say he wasn’t scum. That’s somehow overlooked because I voted pokechu even though I explained my reasoning numerous times. He just doesn’t like it to not like it.

Then there’s the other parts. He seemingly takes no isssue with nabe’s posts until he is grilled on nabe being scum.

He also refuses to believe and find Laundry’s post looking a little bad after his soup fight. Which honestly if you can’t see those two things as at least possibilities, how are you town?

Joey is proving he isn’t open to discussion on some of the bigger plays no matter how hard it wants it to seem he is.

He’s been fixated on me from the start even when others read me as town st the start. It’s pretty clear he wants to j my see a picture where I’m scum and he hasn’t hard stayed on any other scum choices really.

Sorry but I’m not going to allow this. It screams a scum play where he just wants whatever I say to sound bad so he can hang me. Everyone else is great except me and I don’t accept that narrative. Scum read me all you want but not looking at other possibilities. Sorry that sounds like teammate defending to me.

Vote: Joey

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Holy ****, Joey walls. I'm not actually here for a few hours. I should definitely exist at deadline and before though.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

Okay but if you let yourself get set up in a "one of these slots has to be scum" pairing shouldn't you be pretty confident that either:
1. The other person is definitely scum, or
2. The pairing is faulty and may be TvT?

Like if we lynch someone and they flip town and then we lynch a townie toMorrow as well, we just lose. I'm wary of setting up absolute "one of these players has to be scum" pairs unless we can say with confidence that the logic for setting them up is sound.

The short answer, yes. I'm not disagreeing with you here. We shouldn't do just any pair, we should collectively decide on a pair that we feel fairly confident holds scum. This is exactly what I said to begin with:

I think the most effective strategy is to collectively select a pair that we thinks holds scum, and to lynch one today and the other tomorrow if the former flips town.

I agree with Nabe's point on Disfunk and sacrificing themselves for me and then immediately saying "I'd rather go for Ryu/Nabe if people think that's a pair" afterwards is pretty bad.

It's been consistent with what I've been saying.

Despite Joey appearing more scummy, it makes sense to me to put that thought on hold and to test Ryu/Nabe if that's where most heads are.

To put it in other words, I would rather hang you but I'm not going to get hung up on my own direction if the group decides to go a different way. This whole phase, collective, united, consensus, have been my buzzwords and I've been very consistent about that. If Ryker is down, and Kantrip is down, and Ryu is down to test Ryu's and Nabe's slots, that sounds like the beginning of a consensus to me. And I can still get information that I want out of it too.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

I'm going to miss deadline but I'll be in and out until 1ish.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Has Laundry voted or indicated which of Ryu/Z25 he prefers for toDay?

It's Ruy.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Considering Laundry and Joey scumread Z25 at that point, I don't like Laundry going along with Ryker saying it wasn't a viable lynch.

You keep hammering this point away in total neglect that I also scumread Shish and was voting for him instead.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

EBWOP: This is also in complete neglect that I told you to move with 10 minutes left to deadline.

 

[Dooms]

Laundry was on Shish really early and made it clear he thought Shish was more scummy than Z25, to my knowledge.

With you, I'm having trouble understanding why you switched to Shish when you did (it was point in the phase where Z wasn't off the table by any means) because I don't think the reasons to scumread Shish outweighed the reasons you had laid out for Z25 scum.

Laundry doesn't bother me for his reasoning for being on Shish, but rather the fact that he was adamant I had to move my vote off Z as he wasn't an option. I don't understand why a slot like soup or Fire was viable to move my vote to at the time but Z25 wasn't. The other slots in question didn't really have momentum in their favour either, and I doubt Laundry's reasoning was that we wouldn't be able to get a lynch without Ryker's support. Who knows if Pokechu/Fire/Shish (who were all around as far as I recall) would have supported a Z25 lynch? Along with me, you, and Laundry that would have been enough, and there might have been other people fine with it too? I only recall Nabe and Ryker townreading Z25 at the time, so Ryker making me pick someone else makes sense. Laundry backing him up on that doesn't.

Does that make sense now?

No.

At the point when I swapped, it was when Z wasn't really jumping onto you yet and I was in the "could be town fodder like Soup/Pokechu have said, but is scummy" scenario. I had stronger logic, but I had reason to believe otherwise. Shishoe's play was in a similar boat but I had no reason to believe he was actually trying to contribute to town and the meta defenses as a whole were weaker. By the time I was around when I had stronger reasoning aka his push on you, we were pretty close to deadline and at the point where you were the only one on Z.

Shish made it clear that he had Pokechu and the secondary wagon he defaulted to was where he literally said "I think you (Z) are the most town so I'm going to follow you" and he voted you. Pokechu meta defended Z already. Fire is the only one in that pool I'd say would be strongly willing to swing that way. Ryker said he read Z well by association since he hated us, Nabe I don't remember about.

We "could" have gotten the people for it "maybe", but it would have been a stretch when we were playing with 20-30 minutes before deadline type stuff.

This just doesn't work dude lmao.