Endless Challenge - April 17 at UT Austin

[Kal]

Endless Challenge
Saturday April 17, 2010
Super Smash Brothers: Melee
SBR Certified​

Location:
Welch 1.316, located on UT Campus. The building is located at the intersection of Speedway and E 24th street.
Directions
Building Information

Schedule:
Saturday April 17, 2010
Doors Open/Registration Begins - 12:00 noon
Doubles Registration Ends/Doubles Begins - 2:00 PM
Singles Registration Ends/Singles Begins - 4:00 PM
Pizza - 6:00 PM
Side Events will begin after the conclusion of Melee singles.

Price
These fees are non-refundable

• Venue Fee - $5
• Singles - $10 per player
• Doubles - $20 per team

Payout

31 or fewer entrants

• 1st = 60%
• 2nd = 30%
• 3rd = 10%

32 - 63 entrants

• 1st = 58%
• 2nd = 28%
• 3rd = 10%
• 4th = 4%

64 or more entrants

• 1st = 55%
• 2nd = 25%
• 3rd = 10%
• 4th = 5%
• 5th = 2.5%
• 5th = 2.5%

Setups
We have about 6 setups. Please bring setups! If you bring a setup* your door fee will be waived. Please note that this does not apply to pizza, i.e. if you want pizza you must pay the $5 venue fee.
*A setup consists of a TV, copy of Melee, and a Gamecube or Wii with the necessary cables.

General Rules

• Items are set to off
• The number of stock is set to 4
• All sets are best of 3 matches*
• Double Elimination**
• In the event of a dispute, controller ports will be selected by Rock-Paper-Scissors
• Dave's Stupid Rule: No player may counterpick a stage on which they have already won
• Ties will be broken by lives, then percentage. In the event of a percentage tie, one stock sudden death will be played
• Wobbling is allowed except when used to excessively stall a match
• The Ice Climber Freeze Glitch is banned
• Jigglypuff's rising pound stall is banned
• Peach's bomber stall beneath levels where she is unreachable is banned (example: Fountain of Dreams)
  *Winners Finals, Losers Finals, and Grand Finals will be best of 5
  **This is subject to change based on the number of entrants

Set Format (in order of procedure)

1. Opponents choose their characters for the first match*
2. Each player may announce one stage to be banned for the first match.
3. The first stage will be played at random from the Random Stage List**
4. After the first match, each player may announce one stage to be banned for the entirety of the set
5. The loser of the previous match announces the next match's stage from either the Random Stage List or the Counter Stage List
6. The winner of the previous match chooses their character
7. The loser of the previous match chooses their character
8. Repeat steps 5-8 for all proceeding matches
   *Double blind character selection may be called for this match
   **Opponents may instead agree upon a random stage

Random Stage List
Dream Land: Fountain of Dreams
Kanto: Pokemon Stadium
Past Stages: Dream Land
Special Stages: Final Destination
Special Stages: Battlefield
Yoshi's Island: Yoshi's Story

Counter Stage List
DK Island: Jungle Japes
Dream Land: Green Greens
F-Zero Grand Prix: Mute City
Kanto Skies: Poke Floats
Lylat System: Corneria
Mushroom Kingdom: Rainbow Cruise
Planet Zebes: Brinstar
Past Stages: Kongo Jungle

Banned Stage List
DK Island: Kongo Jungle
Eagleland: Onett
Eagleland: Fourside
F-Zero Grand Prix: Big Blue
Hyrule Temple
Infinite Glacier: Icicle Mountain
Lylat System: Venom
Mushroom Kingdom: Princess Peach's Castle
Mushroom Kingdom I
Mushroom Kingdom II
Yoshi's Island: Yoshi's Island
Past Stages: Yoshi's Island
Planet Zebes: Brinstar Depths
Superflat World: Flat Zone
Termina: Great Bay


Additional Rules for Double's Play

• Life Stealing is allowed
• Set team attack to ON
• Add Termina: Great Bay to the Counter Stage List
• Add F-Zero Grand Prix: Mute City to the Banned Stage List
• Add Dream Land: Fountain of Dreams to the Banned Stage List

Tournament Specific Rules

• The Mage's DQ rule: After a match has been called, if a player is two minutes late he will receive a warning. At 4 minutes late, he will be given a loss for the first game of the set. After six minutes, he will be given a loss of the entire set.
• If there is a dispute, it must be settled before the start of the next match.
• MikeHaze rule: No yelling or making abrupt noises at your opponent.
• Chibo's Video-for-the-masses rule: You cannot refuse to be recorded if you pay money to enter an event.

 

[Rayzorium]

First

 

[DoH]

oh holy ****

I'm counterpicking people to Peach's Castle

and by people I might mean darkrain

 

[Tirno]

Wow, I'm going to need to brush up on my counter pick stages.

 

[-RedShadow]

oh my ****ing god

ray just posted on this thread

**** just got serious

 

[MT_]

Wait there are stages to play on now? Balls.

 

[Noc]

Sixth

I vote we have a falcon round robin tournament for a side event lol

 

[S.O.S.]

i may go to this. . .

 

[Jake13]

shroom II and peach's castle?

well that's ********

 

[blackfox51]

Green Greens?
All I can say is gg =/

 

[Kal]

I just copied the SBR ruleset more or less. I'm willing to change the legal stages if there is demand for it.

 

[The MC Clusky]

i may go to this. . .

Me you and Nike can probably all just go together.

shroom II and peach's castle?

well that's ********

Yes it is. Can anyone say fox infinite's or backthrow madness?

Those stages haven't been on years.

 

[Kal]

Sorry about the awkward ruleset everyone. I moved Kongo Jungle and Rainbow Cruise to the counterpick stage list. I also moved Mushroom Kingdom II and Peach's Castle to the banned stage list. I hope everyone is happy with this ruleset.

 

[DoH]

dnw green greens or poke floats

 

[Kal]

I won't move Poke Floats to the banned stage list, but I might move Green Greens.

What about Mute City? I don't want to go in the scrubby direction of just banning everything we don't like. >_>

I realized that I copied the 2008 ruleset, which is why there were some strange stages on the counterpick list. I can agree that Mushroom Kingdom II and Peach's Castle should be banned, but I don't think that Mute City, Corneria, Jungle Japes, Green Greens, and Poke Floats should.

 

[JesusFreak]

I <3 stages.

 

[The MC Clusky]

I realized that I copied the 2008 ruleset, which is why there were some strange stages on the counterpick list. I can agree that Mushroom Kingdom II and Peach's Castle should be banned, but I don't think that Mute City, Corneria, Jungle Japes, Green Greens, and Poke Floats should.

This. There isn't enough data to show that the latter 4 stages have become an overpowered tactic capable of affecting tournament results. Melee doesn't need anymore rule changes IMHO, and I don't see why some people feel compelled to further reduce the number of stages, especially when it removes counterpicks for some characters, serving to aid characters that do badly on those stages. It's worse for balance to me.

 

[Kal]

Yes, I think many players forget that a stage should be banned because it is broken in some way. Usually, such a stage would cause the game to degenerate. Hyrule, for example, will lead to players counterpicking Fox and simply running away for the entire match, resulting in a win.

To ban a stage because it's disliked is not a good idea. What one personally enjoys is not an important factor in making a ruleset. Similarly, banning a stage because it gives a character too many counterpicks is a bad idea. There's nothing wrong with a character being better due to what stages he has available. This is part of the game.

I feel banning a stage in order to make the game more balanced is silly. It's not any different than imposing arbitrary limitations on character choice and how the characters are played.

 

[Tirno]

This. There isn't enough data to show that the latter 4 stages have become an overpowered tactic capable of affecting tournament results. Melee doesn't need anymore rule changes IMHO, and I don't see why some people feel compelled to further reduce the number of stages, especially when it removes counterpicks for some characters, serving to aid characters that do badly on those stages. It's worse for balance to me.

Well, when characters have at least two very good counterpicks (e.g. Brinstar/Mute for Jiggs/Peach or just about any of the other stages for Fox) to choose from, best of 3 sets become very heavily influenced by the first match. If they have three or more good counter picks, it can affect best of 5 sets too. It's not hard to understand why some people dislike this. The whole idea of playing sets is to keep a single match from being the deciding factor in a set and to give people a reasonable chance to make a comeback.

Not saying the rules have to be changed, but it's not difficult to see why there's been a push for weaker counter picking (see the newest MBR stage list). In the end, it sort of comes down to whether you think counter picks should be close to auto-wins or just slight advantages (of course, where stages fall in terms of advantages is debatable).

 

[JesusFreak]

I think the best compromise is 3/5 sets. That's how the Europeans do it iirc. Either way, I like the idea of more variety. Stages are only "close to auto-win" for people who can't play multiple characters. I like the idea of more stages, and I always have. It forces you to learn more of the cast or learn how to overcome certain disadvantages with your main.

 

[Tirno]

I think the best compromise is 3/5 sets. That's how the Europeans do it iirc. Either way, I like the idea of more variety. Stages are only "close to auto-win" for people who can't play multiple characters. I like the idea of more stages, and I always have. It forces you to learn more of the cast or learn how to overcome certain disadvantages with your main.

You're right about playing multiple characters being a good solution, but best of 5 sets also sounds like a good idea. Unfortunately, that time vs. accuracy of results trade-off rears its ugly head again.

Also, I think the minimalist-ban approach (anything that can be allowed, should be allowed) is sort of unrealistic. You could adhere to this philosophy and take a potentially fun game and kill it for the sake of purism. Like in most areas of life, striking a balance is the key. I'd be all for banning stuff in a game if it took it from being a complete snore to the best game ever. What's the point of a game nobody actually wants to play?

Personally, I blame Sirlin, haha.

 

[Kal]

Fun is subjective, my friend. When it comes to tournaments, it's important to have fun, but having a deep game is more important. I don't have fun running away and firing lasers for 8 minutes, but if I have to do it to win, I will.

For most of us, it is the game's depth which makes the game fun.

 

[Tirno]

Fun is subjective, my friend.

You're absolutely right. But that's no reason to at least take fun into consideration when making a ruleset. It seems to me most games in real life are regulated to strike a balance between competitiveness (and as such neutrality) and actual fun. Any standard-setting body for a competitive game would be foolish to ignore their game's actual appeal for the sake of some arbitrary game-making philosophy.

It's important to have fun, but having a deep game is more important.

I think this is where the schism really is. Most people play games to have fun. Given the choice between a fun, shallow game and a fun, deep game, I'd certainly choose the latter, but I believe for most people, fun actually is the most important factor in games. So I think most people would sacrifice a little depth for the sake of keeping the game fun and keeping it alive.

 

[Jake13]

i like the list now lol


too bad i won't be able to make it.

Owl City in Houston <3

EDIT: nvm i might make it, the show is the 16th. so if im not hella hungover im thereee

 

[JesusFreak]

Competition is fun. That's the whole point of a tournament. The whole idea is to comprise a ruleset that allows for good competition, while still allowing for some diversity (which some people may translate to me "fun"). Keeping the game fresh and exciting is good, but keeping it competitive is the main focus of a tournament. I personally don't like the minimalist approach (only having a few stages legal) but I also don't want anything and everything to be allowed.

This ruleset does a good job of balancing variety and competition.

 

[S.O.S.]

leave peachs castle on. . . <3

 

[Hylian]

I don't have fun running away and firing lasers for 8 minutes

You've learned nothing!


<lolololol

 

[Kal]

Your sig is bigger than your post. Ban yourself!

 

[The MC Clusky]

Umm 3/5 matches sounds like a dandy solution...

except you fail to realize that it would make the tournament last like another 3 hours >.>

 

[Tirno]

Umm 3/5 matches sounds like a dandy solution...

except you fail to realize that it would make the tournament last like another 3 hours >.>

But I did mention that there was a time problem with best of 5 sets.

In any case, I actually think the rule set is fine as is (though I lean towards the newest MBR rule set). I just take a little issue with the idea that fun should be absolutely no consideration when making a rule set for a game. Even with regards to tournaments, most of us ultimately go since we like Melee and have fun playing it, or else we'd be at a tournament for some other game that's technically deeper and/or more competitive.

 

[musashi]

i disagree with green greens and mute city, other than that seems fine
cuz if theres green greens thats a guaranteed win for fox pretty much
and if theres mute city then if u play a peach u gotta ban either that or brinstar which will get u screwed anyways xD

 

[blackfox51]

Why can't we just use the MBR rule set? Now we're just throwing in opinions and complicating the situation. If we just use the widely accepted set of stages, then we all have to deal with it.

Instead, we're just trying to throw in/take out stages b/c of bias. Someone wants Mute City out, then another person will want Green Greens out.

To not use the MBR ruleset seems like a waste.

 

[Kal]

I didn't choose stages due to any personal preference. Rather, there's not enough evidence, as far as I can tell, to suggest that we should ban the stages on the list. The MBR ruleset is a guideline, and we have the right to disagree with it.

Frankly, I'm just not ok with banning a stage on the premise that a character does really well on it. You ban stages because they're broken. It doesn't seem to be the case that Green Greens is broken, but if anyone can provide a compelling argument to suggest otherwise, I would be happy to add Green Greens to the banned stage list. The same holds for the remaining stage on the counterpick list. I'm not unwilling to change the stage list, I just don't want to ban things preemptively, even if MBR says we should.

 

[blackfox51]

I dunno, there's tons of benefits for Fox players on Green Greens. Upsmash will kill Jiggs and Peach very early, the left and right boundaries lead to very early KO's as well
It's possible to get Drillshined against a wall of blocks until someone is in killing percentage
Captain Falcon and Sheik's recoveries can be gayed by the blocks as well if that is the only viable means of recovering

I think that Jungle Japes should be taken out.
Random klaptrap ko's when you're hanging on the edge, Falco can spike you straight into the water, he can also side+b to any ledge, making it so that the opponent has to approach all the time to get to Falco (especially since he already has his lasers >.>)

Mute City is **** when a Peach takes any character there. If you've watched any Armada vids on that stage, you'll see why.

 

[uglywombat2004]

I may go to this...

I don't know if I remember how to play melee though. if I remember correctly, I do a lot of fancy things then I lose. Haha!

 

[The MC Clusky]

I dunno, there's tons of benefits for Fox players on Green Greens. Upsmash will kill Jiggs and Peach very early, the left and right boundaries lead to very early KO's as well
It's possible to get Drillshined against a wall of blocks until someone is in killing percentage
Captain Falcon and Sheik's recoveries can be gayed by the blocks as well if that is the only viable means of recovering

I think that Jungle Japes should be taken out.
Random klaptrap ko's when you're hanging on the edge, Falco can spike you straight into the water, he can also side+b to any ledge, making it so that the opponent has to approach all the time to get to Falco (especially since he already has his lasers >.>)

Mute City is **** when a Peach takes any character there. If you've watched any Armada vids on that stage, you'll see why.

gayness =/= broken. When it becomes an overdomineering tactic, such as Onett was back in 2006, that's grounds for a ban. Just saying "watch armada vids" is a bit one sided (He's armada after all, he beats you on his counterpick and your counterpick, Armada special lol). Peaches can and do lose on Mute city (Silent Spectre can help prove that). Besides, there are plenty of bad stages, and let's not simply forget, even if it's easy for a Peach to win on Mute City, that doesn't mean they can win on round 3's stage.

 

[Hylian]

I dunno, there's tons of benefits for Fox players on Green Greens. Upsmash will kill Jiggs and Peach very early, the left and right boundaries lead to very early KO's as well
It's possible to get Drillshined against a wall of blocks until someone is in killing percentage
Captain Falcon and Sheik's recoveries can be gayed by the blocks as well if that is the only viable means of recovering

I think that Jungle Japes should be taken out.
Random klaptrap ko's when you're hanging on the edge, Falco can spike you straight into the water, he can also side+b to any ledge, making it so that the opponent has to approach all the time to get to Falco (especially since he already has his lasers >.>)

Mute City is **** when a Peach takes any character there. If you've watched any Armada vids on that stage, you'll see why.

Yeah, it's a good fox stage. Hence the term counterpick. Just like brinstar/mute city are good for peach. Or FD is good for marth against spacies. A stage needs to be banned when it starts over centralizing the metagame/is obviously broken and tests different skills than normal play. For example Hyrule promotes circle camping, and characters have strategies there that are pretty much impossible to beat. You would have to ban that stage or lose on it to a fox no matter what.

I would say green greens gives fox a considerable advantage on many characters, but he doesn't have any broken strategies there, and other characters can make good use of the stage as well.

Another thing is just stage knowledge. A lot of people want to get rid of stages just because they don't understand them. For example you said the claptraps on jungle japes are random, but they aren't at all, they are set on a timer. You can know exactly where it is at all times. People complain about the cloud sometimes on YI, but they just don't watch the timer. If you've ever played me on that stage you would notice I pretty much always know where the cloud is and when it's going to come out.


If you want stages gone provide some good reasonings. Does that stage overcentralize anything? Have broken strategies that can be preformed on it? Delve from the standard play so much that it's testing a different skill set?

Let's hear it.

 

[musashi]

aight im bored so ima gonna say why green greens is not just an advantage but is broken (this should be pretty obvious by now cause green greens is already banned for what i consider the current stage list, which is the one used on pound4 genesis n stuff).
when you are marth or cf or some character without projectiles (this might include peach, im not sure though), you as fox can go to one of the islands on the left or right side and start shooting lasers.
you force your oponent to approach. the only approach you can do is an aerial approach which makes it hella predictable cause you pretty much lose all your options and one of ur main options which are grabs.
now if you approach with an aerial in a place where you cant space because the island is freakin small, fox can pretty much get out of shield with so many things (shine out of shield, usmash, nair, grab) and pretty much kill you. you repeat this untill your oponent is out of stocks. this strategy is hella gay, broken and yes, some people do this.
btw im not sure if you can infinite waveshine towards the blocks so i wont mention that.

and to be honest i dont even know why mute city, all i know is that peach is for some reason really good on that stage and she is really good on brinstar too so one of those 2 should be banned.

so my opinion is use the official current stage list and stop this useless and needless argument of the stages lol

 

[blackfox51]

The timer won't be a factor (in Jungle Japes) when you're hit straight into a klaptrap. You can easily get caught by it if the ledge is your only safe option to go towards. Why should that be allowed? It's almost like Green Greens too. A Falco can camp the crap out of you, forcing you to approach. That Falco (and Fox too) can just side+b to safety, or another camping spot.

Here's my opinion on Mute City and why it will be hell for any character not named Peach or Jigglypuff
She covers usually about a few options on any neutral stage (her nair can edgeguard a potentially sweetspotted or high side+b from spacies, floating only strengthens that)

But w/ Mute City and it's lack of ledges to hang on, you're pretty much screwed if you're playing a spacie, CF, Marth, Sheik and so on. All she has to do is wait on stage, float cancel to plenty of other crap and make sure you have no hope of winning on that stage. Peach doesn't exactly need ledges to recover as well.

There are parts where she can just float just below the stage and camp out of that. There's also the stage formation where there's just three high platforms after the small tunnel. You have to approach her if she's on that and you're behind.

I'm sure that my opinion will just be overlooked because I'm more of a newcomer. If I had a highly acclaimed player argue for banning mute city, jungle japes, and green greens, then the chances would be more likely for using the MBR stage list.

We should really look into why those stages are off the list anyways. =/

 

[MT_]

But I beat Mitchell on Mute City Fox vs Puff. ZING!!