Editorial: Evo and Mii Legality

From the mouth of Mr. Wizard himself: within the next week, Evo organizer Joey Cuellar will be discussing the ruleset with Bear, one of the tournament organizers of Genesis 3, and D1, one of the most prolific commentators in Smash history. With this happening, a debate has risen yet again over the legality of three characters within Smash 4: the Mii Fighters.

Before continuing on, I shall admit a slight bias: I enjoy using Mii Swordfighter in Smash 4. However, I want to offer an unbiased look at how rulesets have been historically decided within Smash and other fighting game communities and use this to facilitate discussion on how Miis should be handled within the game.

David Sirlin's Play to Win is one of the most influential written pieces for competitive gaming. Having an extensive resume in game design, David Sirlin knows his stuff. The Play to Win series is available absolutely free online for those who want to read it, but the piece we will be focusing on here is called What Should Be Banned?

Let's look at the criteria of a ban. To quote him directly, "A ban must be enforceable, discrete, and warranted." The first one is fairly obvious; if you want to ban something, you have to be able to enforce it. Second, the thing to be banned must be, to quote Sirlin again, "able to be 'completely defined.'"

Taking a quick jaunt back to the days of Brawl, there was a time when the stage Pirate Ship was legal. The stage had an issue where players could stall in the water and put an opponent in a very disadvantaged position if they tried to approach. There was no good way to simply ban the tactic: what if a player fell into the water innocently? How long could you stay there before it was considered stalling? There was no way to make the rule discrete. As the strategy was very strong, a ban on the stage was warranted, and thus the stage left the competitive spectrum.

Let's look to timers as another example. I've previously written an entire piece on the history of timers in Smash, which is a good primer on why we use stocks or even have a timer at all, so consider reading it. We chose to use stocks and a timer as our rules to make the game playable competitively at the best level.

This goes for stages as well. We all know that stages like Rainbow Cruise, Corneria, Brinstar, and Green Greens were once commonly legal within Melee but aren't any longer. It was found within the mechanics of Melee that these stages had issues where they provided extreme advantages to certain characters, so their ban was warranted to have a good competitive game. When Brawl came around, all of those stages listed above were retested for legality with all but Corneria actually being fully legal for quite some time. They too eventually were found to give too powerful an advantage with Meta Knight legal and thus met the ban hammer. Come Smash 4, Corneria and Brinstar were tested YET AGAIN to be sure that with the new mechanics they would still warrant a ban. Some 3DS tournaments still run with Brinstar legal. We only subtract as little as possible, change as little as physically possible to find the proper ruleset for a game.

The Original Smash 4 Character Select Screen​

Now we come to Miis. Take a look at that character select screen above. Notice anything interesting about it? There are no Miis available. Miis do not show up as selectable characters until one has already been created. So we are at a unique impasse: we must decide whether, like changing the stock count, adding a timer, and turning on team attack in doubles, we should even have Miis in the first place.

Many who watch the game know and have heard the arguments for Miis being legal: Miis can use all their moves even with customs off. Miis have not caused an issue at any major tournament. They are not overpowered. Miis at a default size take less time to make than it takes to set up control schemes.

These things are not the real issues. By going into the customization menu to use Miis in the first place, we are accepting that having Miis legal adds enough to the game competitively to warrant us doing so. When we then surgically limit them to only their first moves, it directly contrasts with this philosophy.

George Santayana was correct: "Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it." In Brawl, Meta Knight was kept legal by many surgical rules. This caused much tension and argument within the Smash community. Today, the same is currently being done with Miis, except it is being done to keep them from playing at full potential. The same tensions are already rising.

So, should Miis be legal at EVO 2016, or should they be banned entirely? What is the best course of action moving forward? That I do not not have an answer to. However, I can say that we have only two options: ban Miis altogether, or allow them their full moveset.

This is an adaptation of the piece "Miis Should Be 100% Legal Or 100% Banned", which was also written by this author. This piece is purely the opinion of its author and does not reflect the position of Smashboards or its affiliates.

 

so wait, somebody fill me in. how come miis arent legal? like, whats the fuss about...?

 

Just legalize them with either 1111 or a definitive set for each. Being able to just change customs willy nilly is complete bs, but a compromise should be fine. There's no need to just straight up get rid of them entirely.

 

Just legalize them with either 1111 or a definitive set for each. Being able to just change customs willy nilly is complete bs, but a compromise should be fine. There's no need to just straight up get rid of them entirely.

Mii Fighter players do not agree on a single set, it is only easy for Brawler. There's a variety of ways to play the characters, it is honestly no different to force 1111 onto Mii Fighters than it is to force a specific set.

I agree switching sets on the fly can be dumb, which is why I think the the 1 moveset per set rule makes complete sense. A player being forced to stick to one moveset against an opponent is good because it allows the opponent to learn the moves throughout the matches. If I were to use a Gunner with 1112, and swapped my moveset to 3322 my opponent would basically have to relearn the matchup during the set. Which I definitely do not think is fair in the slightest.

I also think a pre-round move demonstration is also good to have requested / or even required if it would end up too much of an issue. Just a hand warmer where the Mii Fighter player does each move one time so the opponent knows what they're up against.

 

I never seen Mii when legal really change a tournament... that being said when watching matches the confusion I see comes from the quick switches of the Mii set up so I cast my vote for them to be Legal but agree with a lot of the other people when saying keep it to 1 set up per set

 

Honestly, I think that although miis should be legal (they are characters after all), we need to ask 2 questions: why are they considered different than any other character, and why can't people just settle for 1111, its the most convenient thing to do and if that set is worse than a custom one, then too bad, tons of characters have bad specials.

Agreed. Do you know how nice it would be, as a Ganondorf main, to have access to all his custom specials?

 

So if were banning miis why aren't Cloud and Ryu banned for have different versions of their specials

 

I stated before early on in this thread that I was chill with miis and neutral to what they bring. Honestly I couldn't care less if they had their customs or paluds had her customs. those characters have dramatically different moves, not just "oooh this attack has a wind box!" Or "ooo watch out this one has stupid start up lag and end lag but its good for one gimmick!" Or "Hey remember Melee? We brought this back for you." Where as for Paluds and Miis they're moves are drastically different. If I was playing a Mii I wouldn't give a crap if they decided to go 1-1-1-2 after I beated their 3-2-1-1, they still have the same A moves, same size, same throws, same fall speed and weight, same everything. Just they have an extra move or two that I'll have to deal with. If I had already beaten them then what the heck am I worried about?

If you're worried that Mii Gunner has a reflector instead of Ness's absorb, then kindly either switch characters, or adapt like everyone else has to, its not that hard to just grasp the situation your placed in and think of a way to defeat your opponent! So what if setting up a Mii "takes to long" I'm sorry but I'd rather look at what my opponent is potentially doing than watching them talk to their coach over a cup of coffee for about 5 mins and do handwarmers for 10 mins and then only to find out that their pro controller is connected to another Wii-U.
Miis and Plauds get their customs out up front. They were made to be switched while the others wernt. Customs won't be on so you don't have to worry about equipments, you'll be fine, if you already beat a mii main user or you are the lucky 2% that play against miis, then what are you so worried about? Maybe letting them have new moves will prove to be more fun and a challenge, miis are far from the levels of Meta Knight, Fox, Pikachu(64) and Shiek, so why are we all crying about Miis getting to have an extra cookie from the cookie jar?

At any point there is still a problem in tournaments then come to player agreement and softban miis right there, and I'm talking about real problems not " but its not fair he can change his moves," Or "I wanna wear a silly hat too!" Them having their custom moves won't shake the meta like how these people are predicting, I doubt 3 characters with obvious glaring problems will create doomsday levels of salt and players soaring through power rankings if they were allowed to change their UpB.

 

"We only subtract as little as possible, change as little as physically possible to find the proper ruleset for a game."

Bull****. One look at Smash 4's stage list should show you that's bull****.

The community at large wants all "jank" gone and TOs cave to that.

 

Everything has a starting point. You really need the game to randomize which customs your Mii's move select menu starts on every time (which just makes creating them more annoying)? How about we name each move with symbols so nothing's #1? Miis are very clearly not designed to be used with the 1111 moveset as a default. If they were, they would have gotten Palutena's treatment, and she's the only one that shares the trait of having her customs available immediately with Miis.

This kind of limit is just too arbitrary. If you want a good baseline for what to disable when Customs are off, try going with the "Customs OFF" setting and what THAT says about using certain moves...


Or the devs could just tell us why Palutena and Miis have their 1111 default sets, that would be nice.

This, right here, is where I disagree on the argument of allowing Miis to customize their special moves. And that's because of Palutena. Yes, it is possible to select Miis with different specials without turning customizations on, but besides that there is absolutely no difference between Miis changing their specials and Pulutena changing hers. In this way we are making a decision not based on balance, enhancing competitive matches, or any facet of gameplay at all, but on a menu element. What the game says about custom moves does not matter in the slightest. The game says that equipping your characters is also part of customization, and we banned that rather promptly when customs were legal. If we went by the games baseline of what to enable and disable, why didn't we legalize equipment?

If we allow Miis to change there special moves we must logically allow Palutena to as well, and the problems with that have already been discussed to death.

 

Honestly imo not only should Miis of all sorts be legal, but also all custom moves should be legal. Sm4sh is in its second year of its competitive life at this point so the excuse of "match up unfamiliarity" isn't valid anymore quite frankly. Don't want to adapt? Leave the community. Simple as that.

 

Banning miis entirely is incredibly stupid. The minimum should be normal size, and default moveset (1111) since every character does that.

Anything outside of that is practically up to the people hosting tournaments because it's easy to go down the slippery slope of "but if X can do it, why not Y?". So it's no surprise that the Mii fighter debate still goes on even this far after the game has been released.
A lot of people in the thread have been saying that Palutena needs it, and while I agree with that, the next question is, why not let Megaman have his customs allowed? Since he has entirely different moves when his customs are allowed. Just reading a couple pages I didn't see him because he's rather higher tier compared to Mii fighters or Palutena.

Personally I want there to be full customization with the size and custom moves. It's the entire point of their character, and one of the big reasons why they can use customs with global custom moves off. I don't care much about size, because based on what I've seen from competitive mii fighters, it's basically a (much needed) flat upgrade by going small.

Unrelated but gosh I feel bad for Mii Fighter mains. Their entire playstyles can be changed just based on whoever is hosting the tournament because of the rules.

 

sigh, I knew something rubbed me the wrong way bout 1111- it's just arbitrary rulings made to keep them in line all over again, just like the tons of rules made for MK in Brawl all over again. In fact n most rights 1111 IS a soft ban, the equivalent of the Baton Pass restriction made by Smogon, or Kleftki with Swagger + Foul Play.

What we have is a scenario similar to those who argue that Blaze Blaziken or Torrent Greninja should be legal but only the DW versions banned. And like I said, it's just like the "special" LGL made for MK among a lot of others.

This is how it goes guys-Make Miis legal with ALL their moves available, or Don't and Ban Them. no more of this "middle road" junk, or else it's just the Brawl MK debacle all over again.

Period.

 

For me miis are fine as long as they are of standard weight and adhere to the 1111 move set that all
Other fighters are forced to use. If we start allowing custom moves and sizes then we must also consider using custom built stages that allow certain chars to play at their strongest(which I do not think is a good idea btw) asking to use customs is like asking to play with smash balls set to in cause your char has an amazing final smash that lets them play at the peak levels cause their final smash is so good... Customs are super fun and certainly make some characters more viable but they aren't standard, if every char had access to other movesets like the miis get then we should consider allowing customs... But that's no the case. Guest miis at 1111 with no equipment or costumes. Otherwise every char should get to
Choose 2222 and 3333... Which some chars done even have the option for

 

Turning the customs button on should never happen because of the possibilities for using equipment. It would be like turning items on. Just
Cause your char would be more
Viable of items were always popping out of the sky for you to use

 

For me miis are fine as long as they are of standard weight and adhere to the 1111 move set that all
Other fighters are forced to use. If we start allowing custom moves and sizes then we must also consider using custom built stages that allow certain chars to play at their strongest(which I do not think is a good idea btw) asking to use customs is like asking to play with smash balls set to in cause your char has an amazing final smash that lets them play at the peak levels cause their final smash is so good... Customs are super fun and certainly make some characters more viable but they aren't standard, if every char had access to other movesets like the miis get then we should consider allowing customs... But that's no the case. Guest miis at 1111 with no equipment or costumes. Otherwise every char should get to
Choose 2222 and 3333... Which some chars done even have the option for

Make a Mii fighter with 1223 go play a game with customs off and choose that character. They are treated different because they are different. By design they are available and not forced to choose like the other characters.

 

Turning the customs button on should never happen because of the possibilities for using equipment. It would be like turning items on. Just
Cause your char would be more
Viable of items were always popping out of the sky for you to use

You don't have to turn customs on to use any Mii configuration. There is no default set for Miis, because Miis are meant to be configured.

 

This, right here, is where I disagree on the argument of allowing Miis to customize their special moves. And that's because of Palutena. Yes, it is possible to select Miis with different specials without turning customizations on, but besides that there is absolutely no difference between Miis changing their specials and Pulutena changing hers. In this way we are making a decision not based on balance, enhancing competitive matches, or any facet of gameplay at all, but on a menu element. What the game says about custom moves does not matter in the slightest. The game says that equipping your characters is also part of customization, and we banned that rather promptly when customs were legal. If we went by the games baseline of what to enable and disable, why didn't we legalize equipment?

If we allow Miis to change there special moves we must logically allow Palutena to as well, and the problems with that have already been discussed to death.

As I expected, and should have wrote about before you replied, you've brought up what we allow with Customs ON. I never once mentioned that because equipment is not only an aspect of the game that's incredibly over-powered (and randomly generated, and impossible to consistently use and adapt to), but one that's easy to just not use.
I said what we should allow with the setting OFF, and that includes Mii specials. I already said that we should allow Palutena specials as well in an earlier post, but the fact that she can't use them by default isn't really something you should gloss over when creating an argument for how similar she is to Miis. Like -- Yes, she can't use them with Customization set to OFF, but the Miis can, so why bother mentioning it? There's clearly a distinction...

 

Mii's should be legalized. And that means all their moves and their sizes.
I see no reason to ban them.

(If the argument about Mii sizes is about different weights and such. It is no different them someone changing to a different character after losing one battle with them, during a match.)

I also say, everyone that has custom moves, should be allowed to use them.

 

Palutena's moves are actually counted as Custom Moves and can't be used without flicking on the Customs switch. That alone makes her an entirely separate case.

As a Palutena main, I don't think she deserves this special treatment.

 

Mii's should be illegal, they're not allowed online why would we allow them in big tournaments? I know online and tournaments are two completely different environments but no other competitive fighting game with custom characters allows for the use of those characters in tournaments why should Smash be any different? If we want to be taken seriously as a competitive fighting game community then we need to start acting like one. On the other hand, if you are running a custom tournament I see no problem with allowing Mii fighters.

 

Mii's should be illegal, they're not allowed online why would we allow them in big tournaments? I know online and tournaments are two completely different environments but no other competitive fighting game with custom characters allows for the use of those characters in tournaments why should Smash be any different? If we want to be taken seriously as a competitive fighting game community then we need to start acting like one. On the other hand, if you are running a custom tournament I see no problem with allowing Mii fighters.

What? They're just as valid of characters as anyone else. You seemingly just ignored all points anyone had for Mii Fighters because you felt like it.

 

This never should've been an issue in the first place. Just because they aren't on the CSS when you first boot up the game literally means nothing. If that were a reason to ban to Miis then I suggest that we ban DLC characters as well because they aren't on the CSS when we first get the game and they cost money to even unlock these characters.

Tl;dr: Legalize Miis. Let them use their alternate movesets.

 

Miis can be legal so long as they are 1111

People always make the argument that they suck without customs. Well so do a lot of characters that doesnt make their customs legal. Also saying that they have them available with customs off is a reason to keep them legal is dumb. That is just how the game was programmed. I could use the same logic in saying they should be 100% banned because they are only on the select screen when you create one and they arent normally there.

Miis shouldnt have special privileges.

 

As I expected, and should have wrote about before you replied, you've brought up what we allow with Customs ON. I never once mentioned that because equipment is not only an aspect of the game that's incredibly over-powered (and randomly generated, and impossible to consistently use and adapt to), but one that's easy to just not use.
I said what we should allow with the setting OFF, and that includes Mii specials. I already said that we should allow Palutena specials as well in an earlier post, but the fact that she can't use them by default isn't really something you should gloss over when creating an argument for how similar she is to Miis. Like -- Yes, she can't use them with Customization set to OFF, but the Miis can, so why bother mentioning it? There's clearly a distinction...

That's not the point, the point is that what the game tells us about what is and isn't selectable means nothing. We've already ignored what the game told us about customs before, the fact that it was about customs being ON is irreverent. If we allow Miis to change their customs then we're arbitrarily limiting Palutena because of a menu element. If we don't let them change their specials then we're arbitrarily limiting Miis by not letting them change their special moves even though the game allows them with customs off. If we let them both change their special moves then we're arbitrary limiting every other character because theirs aren't unlocked by default. No matter what decision we make regarding Miis it will be arbitrary. It's just that one of them keeps things at an even standard.

 

Mii's always need be legal as all other chars. Just put then default (1111) and a default weight too... So simply...

 

That's not the point, the point is that what the game tells us about what is and isn't selectable means nothing. We've already ignored what the game told us about customs before, the fact that it was about customs being ON is irreverent. If we allow Miis to change their customs then we're arbitrarily limiting Palutena because of a menu element. If we don't let them change their specials then we're arbitrarily limiting Miis by not letting them change their special moves even though the game allows them with customs off. If we let them both change their special moves then we're arbitrary limiting every other character because theirs aren't unlocked by default. No matter what decision we make regarding Miis it will be arbitrary. It's just that one of them keeps things at an even standard.

You're over-using the word "arbitrary"... Miis have a unique, undeniable, in-game trait exclusive to them. Nothing arbitrary about that.

 

What? They're just as valid of characters as anyone else. You seemingly just ignored all points anyone had for Mii Fighters because you felt like it.

My point is that if the Smash community wants to be taken seriously as a competitive fighting game community we should act like a competitive fighting game community. Like I said Mii's are custom fighters Soul Calibur doesn't allow for custom characters to be played in tournament and Smash should do the same. That's just my opinion on the topic no need to get salty about it

 

You're over-using the word "arbitrary"... Miis have a unique, undeniable, in-game trait exclusive to them. Nothing arbitrary about that.

That's just the thing though, they don't. Their unique trait (not counting sizes of course) is their ability to change their special moves... except literally every other character in the game can do that to.

Their unique gameplay trait is actually a trait on the character select screen. In the game there is absolutely no difference between Miis changing their custom moves and any other character changing theirs. And that's my problem, that the basis of the argument for giving Miis customs isn't based on gameplay, but on a UI element, and I don't see that as sufficient reason for them to have access to a facet outside of gameplay that no other character does.

 

That's just the thing though, they don't. Their unique trait (not counting sizes of course) is their ability to change their special moves... except literally every other character in the game can do that to.

Their unique gameplay trait is actually a trait on the character select screen. In the game there is absolutely no difference between Miis changing their custom moves and any other character changing theirs. And that's my problem, that the basis of the argument for giving Miis customs isn't based on gameplay, but on a UI element, and I don't see that as sufficient reason for them to have access to a facet outside of gameplay that no other character does.

"The menu element I'm ignoring isn't important"

I wonder whyyyyyyy

 

people don't seem to understand the fact that miis are not "custom" characters the way we have established it. they are on a whole different level.

if we define "custom character", it's a character that you can change the moveset, add stat boosts, and can be activated and deactivated when you press the "custom character" on/off option.

fun fact: the mii "custom" movesets are not removed by this customs on/off button (only stat boosts are affected), therefore they are NOT a "custom" character.

miis should be cataloged as "Mii" characters.

I believe that it's more important to know what percentages they die at, and how strong and fast their normals are than knowing if the character can drop a bomb or use a shine. therefore, a great compromise to the customization is to stick to mid height and weight for ALL miis. that way, all their normals and general mobility remain the same.

for example, a brawler with 1111 will kill you with their Forward smash at the EXACT same percent as a brawler with 3122, and both will die at the EXACT percent.

not to mention, to make a custom height mii, you have to CLOSE the current game (smash bros), go to the mii maker, create a brand new mii, set it up to the EXACT height and weight as the one you use at home, close the program, and reload smash bros. that EASILY takes at least 5 minutes to do, and that IS a big time waster in tournaments. sure, this can be solved by loading a premade mii from a 3DS, but then what about those who don't have a portable system with the 3DS copy of the game? excluding them would be unfair.

another important thing to keep in mind for a ruleset is to allow the player to make one mii of each type per set. as an example, the player sticks to gunner 2222 as their moveset in round 1. win or lose, that player cannot make a 1113 gunner for round 2, or possibly round 3. only until that player goes against a new foe, then they can use the 1113 gunner. BUT the person would be allowed to counterpick a brawler 3122 in round 2. if they go to round 3, that person could go back to the gunner he created for round 1 (being 2222) or stick to the current brawler (3122)

it's a pretty simple concept, and only the mii mains and TOs will have to remember these rules.

TLDR:
1. all special moves allowed
2. mid height and weight only (guest miis are defaulted to these stats)
3. no changing moveset between rounds. (changing mii type is ok)

now if after a good few months of trying this ruleset and a broken move is found (things like freeze the game, become invulnerable, breaindead insta KO), then that move can be banned. I'm pretty sure none of the moves will ever reach a level of silliness like bayo's witch time (which is not a banned move)

 

Also saying that they have them available to keep them legal is dumb. That is just how the game was programmed. I could use the same logic in saying they should be 100% banned because they are only on the select screen when you buy them and they arent normally there.

DLC shouldnt have special privileges.

Dude I 100% support you. Everyone #banDLC this guy speaks the truth his logic is sound. Lets all let our voices be heard so this game can be taken seriously as a competitive fighting game.

 

Look, man. This is three whole characters we're talking about here. Three characters we're pretty much just tossing aside because reasons.

Makes no goddamn sense.

And as for sizes, if there's no reasonable way to allow players to set up Miis prior to a tourney, then optimal sized miis should be made available. Isn't there a consensus on the best sizes? We're talking about competitive play, damnit, don't we want to see people at their best?

 

Isn't there a consensus on the best sizes?

Swordfighter:
0:0
0:100

Brawler:
0:0

Gunner:
25:0

 

I personally dislike Miis, and pre-setting all their moveset combinations is sort of a pain. HOWEVER, to restrict a player from utilizing a character that they feel comfortable with and have trained with is a much worse offesnse to the community. Miis are just another set of matchups that a player must learn to compete against, and they make the competive scene more interesting because they aren't the ever-so-common top tier characters.

 

Dude I 100% support you. Everyone #banDLC this guy speaks the truth his logic is sound. Lets all let our voices be heard so this game can be taken seriously as a competitive fighting game.

Clever, taking my irrelevant example I wasn't serious about and using it to make me sound dumb.

 

Clever, taking my irrelevant example I wasn't serious about and using it to make me sound dumb.

Well at least you admit it since everyone against Mii's sound the same. I don't even like them in fact they are garbage and when we did have customs all of 2 people were playing them and guess what they still got destroyed. There is no harm letting them in seeing as they don't break anything. I fully support them though because it is not right to exclude people from playing the game they bought.

 

Well at least you admit it since everyone against Mii's sound the same. I don't even like them in fact they are garbage and when we did have customs all of 2 people were playing them and guess what they still got destroyed. There is no harm letting them in seeing as they don't break anything. I fully support them though because it is not right to exclude people from playing the game they bought.

Just stating how I feel on the matter. I could be wrong and yeah if they do get there customs it won't be the end of the world and I along with everyone else will get over it. I just don't like seeing the characters that were good with customs not be able to have them while Miis get them just because they can be selected from the menu without customs being on.

It just feels a bit unfair is all, but if they do get legalized good for you guys. I'm not gonna fight it.

 

I've really gotten so tired of people not bothering to read and giving the same redundant reasons to force Miis to 1111 or ban them as before. Even ESAM now is doing it, and he said he wants them banned just so Mii Fighters mains stop complaining.

Why is so much of the Smash Community being like this? It's so easy to just use Guest Miis with any moveset, and there's no real argument against it at all. It's very frustrating.

Just stating how I feel on the matter. I could be wrong and yeah if they do get there customs it won't be the end of the world and I along with everyone else will get over it. I just don't like seeing the characters that were good with customs not be able to have them while Miis get them just because they can be selected from the menu without customs being on.

It just feels a bit unfair is all, but if they do get legalized good for you guys. I'm not gonna fight it.

It's already been explained why. Mii Fighters are designed to be that way, and technically you do have to switch your Mii Fighter to use a different moveset, someone else could just as easily pick a different character to counterpick you. They aren't getting any unfair advantage. Every Mii Fighter technically counts as a different character.

 

They are not custom moves. They are not custom moves. They are not custom moves. How many times does this need to be explained? They are not custom moves. They aren't even registered in the files as custom moves, and there is no default for the Mii fighters. 1111 is not a default, you have to make them have the moves they do, and making them have 1111 is stupid and ruins Mii fighters. Kirby doesn't work without Copy Ability, Peach doesn't work without floating. Mii fighters do not work without being able to use their moves.

I consider them custom moves, since you are customizing the playable moveset that three characters have, when other non-miis cannot pick and choose the moves they get to play with in non-customs tournies. All I'm saying is if it's a non-custom tournament, then all characters should be played 1111.

 

I consider them custom moves, since you are customizing the playable moveset that three characters have, when other non-miis cannot pick and choose the moves they get to play with in non-customs tournies. All I'm saying is if it's a non-custom tournament, then all characters should be played 1111.

They AREN'T custom moves though, so it really doesn't matter what you consider them. They are designed to be able to have moves chosen for them, and they can use these moves even with customs off. Their moves aren't even similar to other customs, as they're completely different moves as opposed to variations of existing moves. Like i've said, everything people have stated has already been disputed against.

We aren't really arguing towards allowing all moves, we're truly arguing AGAINST being restricted (or even banned). So the thing is, you guys have to have a reason to do that to us. Innocent until proven guilty. So far, we've held up as innocent pretty well thus far.