Edge Hogging completely destroys tether recovery characters*EDITED*

[Kruton]

This is true.

During a tournament on Tuesday, there was this **** Olimar player, and pretty much the only way people were killing him was by edge hogging.

 

[yoshi_fan]

This is true.

During a tournament on Tuesday, there was this **** Olimar player, and pretty much the only way people were killing him was by edge hogging.

Let's band edgehog :D

/flameshield

 

[Blue sHell]

I bet 3/5 people in this thread haven't even played brawl yet.

Olimar can whistle a purple pikmen to the front line and throw it at the edgehogger, and then immediately tether when they're in hit-stun. Appearently Olimar's recovery has different properties based on the one he is holding during his upB as well. People are testing this in the Olimar thread. I can also confirm that one of (or all of?) the pikmen will spike when you hit your opponent with upB.

That was pretty wordy. In a nutshell:

Whistle purple to front line, get close to edgehogger, throw purple pikmen and immediately upB. It will either get you back on, or spike your opponent.

Olimar also gets a little L-dodge-style melee boost from his upB. Please test stuff yourself and only post relevant information before living your life in fear. Olimar is fine ATM.

And in the case you don't have a purple pikmin on you, or a purple pikmin close to the front of the line for switching, then what? I think Olimar fans have a right to be worried(not really a fan myself but still). This is bad, it shouldn't be sugarcoated. Optimism about this is fine, but denying that this isn't really bad is denial.

 

[SGX]

Noooo Oli Nooooooooooo

:'(

I'm going to get flamed... but why not ban the edgehogging from tournaments, instead of DESTROYING 2 CHARACTERS... huh?

Are you serious?

I mean....seriously...

 

[JakedRooster]

And in the case you don't have a purple pikmin on you, or a purple pikmin close to the front of the line for switching, then what? I think Olimar fans have a right to be worried(not really a fan myself but still). This is bad, it shouldn't be sugarcoated. Optimism about this is fine, but denying that this isn't really bad is denial.

I'm just being optimistic, since I've got well over 10 hours playing Olimar by now. Watching match videos it doesn't seem very many Olimar players try to keep the maximum pikmen out at a time. pulling pikmen is fast and almost always safe, so maintaining maximum pikmen seems like an obvious strategy...

True that you may not have a purple pikmen, but getting him to the front, should you have one, hasn't ever been much of a problem for me (as long as he's within 2 whistles). This is under the assumption that you are being smashed diagonally up, not something like Shiek's claw.

Sorry I'm not really in the right mind to discuss this topic atm, but what I'm trying to explain is that Olimar isn't basically ****ed out of a 3rd recovery like people seem to think, he's still got good chances of getting back on, you just have to be on your game and with a little luck.




This reminds me a lot about "Jump into ness' PKT and he's ****ed" arguement. I don't see that happening all that often...

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

these are the most pessimistic boards i have ever been on.

Good GOD this is so true.

 

[Mama]

lol thats pretty funny. But I don't think its terrible news. I'm sure people will figure ways around it eventually. And banning (not band as that is a totally different word lol) edge hogging is just silly.

 

[TaurToph]

Can't Ivysaur just change to Charizard and fly?

 

[Sugata Designs]

Aha! I knew I wasn't imagining things.

Re: "Tethers only working below the edge"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjm7vG2Ggnk

2:30, ivysaur latches on from above the stage. No telling from that how far above the edge you can be, but that tether was definitely from above the edge.

Edit: In fact, at 2:41 he manages to miss the edge but at an incredibly steep angle at which you'd never realistically need to tether. Oh how I wish I could test this.

Angles from the edge and the maximum height/distance you can be from the edge - anyone up to the challenge of documenting this? Seeing the exact range of angles available to tether the edge would be a really valuable contribution.

Edit edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UdDUHCEkuA 3:32, Ivysaur tethers from ages above the stage and quite far out too.

Somebody should listen to this guy ---^

Most people are just being negative instead of theorizing on how to get past this. Granted, it sounds bad, but you shouldn't just throw the character out without testing every aspect of it first.

 

[SuperLink9]

Or we could storm Sora's feudal Japan castle.

 

[TaurToph]

So... can't Ivysaur just change to Charizard and fly?

 

[ph00tbag]

Aha! I knew I wasn't imagining things.

Re: "Tethers only working below the edge"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjm7vG2Ggnk

2:30, ivysaur latches on from above the stage. No telling from that how far above the edge you can be, but that tether was definitely from above the edge.

Edit: In fact, at 2:41 he manages to miss the edge but at an incredibly steep angle at which you'd never realistically need to tether. Oh how I wish I could test this.

Angles from the edge and the maximum height/distance you can be from the edge - anyone up to the challenge of documenting this? Seeing the exact range of angles available to tether the edge would be a really valuable contribution.

Edit edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UdDUHCEkuA 3:32, Ivysaur tethers from ages above the stage and quite far out too.

Huh. That's interesting. I can say from experience though that Zamus seems to have different results. Couldn't get her to tether the ledge from above, not even with Over B.

 

[Xenesis]

So... can't Ivysaur just change to Charizard and fly?

Can't change in the air.

 

[SuperLink9]

You can't use Pokémon Change in midair. If player had known that he would need to recover in the coming seconds that could work, but unless he's psychic he'd better not waste time thinking about it

 

[Zek]

This sucks if there's no way around it. But quit whining about characters being ruined guys, you don't know that. Maybe the devs were fully aware of this weakness of tethers and designed Olimar & Ivysaur to have horrible recovery?

 

[TaurToph]

Oohhhh so that's really bad news to pokemon trainer players...

 

[empty]

someone suggested this earlier but...

sometimes theres something really obvious that we jsut arn't thinking of.
Someone try to edgehog a level 9 cpu olimar. Maybe the computer will do something that none of us expected. I know when i first played 64 i was shocked by ness's pk thunder return. I wouldn't have thought of that had it not been for the comp

 

[Dagingabreadman]

The only solution I can think is if the delevopers fix it so that tour tether atachers to the edgehoggers leg/foot...

 

[ComradeSAL]

This entire problem is fixed if we ban moving.

 

[Sugata Designs]

This entire problem is fixed if we ban moving.

Spacies for top tier (again)

 

[otter]

I'm just glad edgehogging as some use now that every character has 45 recovery moves.

 

[Mama]

Oohhhh so that's really bad news to pokemon trainer players...

Not really. From what I hear you could play a whole match as just one Pokemon since it seems like the stamina thing doesn't have time to kick in since the tournament level players are so fast. The small details could be different but who knows. A better way to phrase that is "doesn't look to good for Ivysaur players".

Also I agree there could be things that we never thought of. Testing it out on an NPC might yield results.

 

[No-Really-I-Suck]

This is something that can be easily fixed before the US release - just add a bit of damage at the end of the tethers - which will disrupt who ever is hogging.

Even if the fix doesn't make it in time for the us release - I can see a downloadable patch that will fix the problem - adding an arbitrary amount of damage to a move would only take an extremely small amount of disk space (probably less than 1mb, maybe even less than 200kb).

Now, whether or not Nintendo will do it...that's a bit more doubtful...

 

[Gilgamesh]

This entire problem is fixed if we ban moving.

This is great news for Snake and the PK users!


edit: i just realized that "Snake and the PK users" would be a great name for a musical band.

 

[SuperLink9]

This is great news for Snake and the PK users!


edit: i just realized that "Snake and the PK users" would be a great name for a musical band.

Or a manga.

 

[Taekmkm]

Or a doujinshi.


*Burns eyes*

AHHHHHHHHH!

 

[SuperLink9]

Or a doujinshi.


*Burns eyes*

AHHHHHHHHH!

First line reads "This is dangerous, it's a little risky".

 

[Solo Assass1n]

Zero Suit Samus will barely have a problem with this. She can do her Dair (if it's similar to Falcon Kick), second jump, and Down B which should be fine... Hopefully. I'm not too worried about this yet since there should be some ways to solve this problem soon enough.

 

[thegreatace]

that is really a shame, I knew there was somthing bad going on about that sweet spot trick... it just seemed too good. ... hmm well maybe its the drawback to ALWAYS getting a sweet spot in your recovery. i think I would have it the other way around like in melee. that way I could choose to sweet or not to sweet LOL.

 

[GaZ_]

I find it interesting that I offer some information on how this problem doesn't effect Olimar as much as people think, but they choose to hijack the topic and talk about manga...

Edit: When the hell did I make this account and how is it logged in...?

 

[The_Woebegone_Jackal]

reading through every comment so far has lead me to believe its not as bad as everyone thinks. I'd love to recap or even quote those with some great ideas/insight into the matter but then that would take away my fun of having people who don't read befor commenting having to go look for them.

 

[Proven]

I've been posting this everywhere, but this is from my own experiences today:

Something about the recovery. I got to play a few more hours today and after a winning streak it seemed like everyone was trying to figure out how to keep me off the platform.

Olimar's Up B will home down if you're trying to recover and are close enough to the ledge. However, this will only happen if no one is already holding on to the ledge. It's unfortunately a big weakness right there.

However, someone also said that you can't latch on if someone is holding the ledge, and that's not true. Basically, if you're under the ledge and your opponent isn't in invincibility frames, your Up B will first knock him off, and if you're long enough for your next pikmin to reach, that one will grab the ledge, at least that's what it looks like.

And this is coming from experience from today. These two situations popped up more than once and in those times I either fell to my doom because I tried to home in from above while they were hanging, or waiting until I was under and knocked him off while still grabbing the ledge. If no one was holding on, I'd Up B immediatly and still be able to home in despite being above the ledge.

Basically, they are not completely screwed. Also, at least with Zero Suit and Olimar, both are very quick to rack up damage, Zero Suit through stun combos and Olimar through his pikmin throws, grabs, and aerials. Despite this weakness I went through a six or seven game streak in both one on one and FFA stock matches. I have no worries at all.

Edit:

I've been reading through the pages more carefully, and I realized certain things.

First, I might have been wrong about the home in from under the ledge. I was already at about a 45 degree angle at the time, so from under the ledge when an opponent is already there, you may not home in.

Second, you will knock off the opponent depending on which pikmin is at the end of your chain when you Up B. I know I did this once using a yellow pikmin and I hit the guy edge hogging, shocked him (revealing it was a yellow) and then bounced him down KOing him before me. This probably works with red pikmin as well, since they have a hit stun for burning. If you can find if this works for purple pikmin (my next best guess), then three out of five pikmin that you can pull will knock back off your opponent. As for grabbing afterward, still needs to be shown, but at a high enough percentage you will hit your opponent so hard that at the very least you'll kill him before you fall to your death.

Olimar is still awesome.

 

[MK-Ultra]

This is news? It's not that big a deal really. Not game breaking in the least.

 

[Losnar]

Maybe if olimar could footstool the enemy after he knocks him off ledge...

 

[TheMintyCookie]

I had a fun time.

 

[Archenyte]

Olimar has his side B to knock them off so he can recover and ivysaur has his razor leaf too. That might help them.

 

[TheMintyCookie]

I had a fun time.

 

[Xanderous]

Lol, no really I'm not. Try it for every angle you want as Olimar. If someone is on the edge no matter how long they've been on it, he will NOT sweetspot it.

Misinformed, no. Believe me when I say we've tested this quite a bit.






It doesn't matter how long you've hanged on. If someone is on the ledge, regardless of invicibility frames, the UpB wont sweetspot.

You're right! Sorry I doubted you, but I just wanted to make sure for myself. This is a major issue and I personally think it should be patched.

 

[/~Dogma~\]

hhmmmm ill keep this in mind

 

[MookieRah]

I'm normally against patching for fighters cause it can seriously destroy existing metagames, but this is too much. Olimar for all intents and purposes was an excellent character but has now basically been reduced to crap due to an obvious design flaw. Even if we discover methods to get Olimar on the ledge I very much doubt it would prevent gimping enough to make him viable.

Hopefully this will be addressed. I doubt it will though.