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Edge Hogging completely destroys tether recovery characters*EDITED*

Thinkaman

Thinkaman

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This is why extreme caution needs to be taken when talking about a game one has not played, to avoid sounding foolish.
 
H

HeroXL

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icy_icicle said:
In regards to Olimar, I highly doubt that this is as much of a hindrance as everyone thinks it is. I played Brawl today, and experimented with Olimar and his recovery.

Many people have already mentioned throwing a purple pikmin, but this seems irrational to me for three reasons:

1. You have to get your purple pikmin to the front, which is hard when the pikmin are bunched up behind you or when you are outside of the stage. In the situation that you are in a magnifying glass, you can't see your pikmin, further complicating the rearrangement of your pikmin due to lack of time and the possibility of edge guarding.

2. you will lose the purple pikmin, shortening your tether and diminishing your chances of recovery slightly.

3. While you can get used to the arc of the pikmin, it is a risky throw that you cannot guarantee will connect; missing, however, would be disastrous.

Having said that, why isn't it possible to simply fair the characters on the ledge? Olimar's fair is quick, powerful, and doesn't shorten your recovery. The edgehogger doesn't have very many options (NOTE: I noticed that in Brawl the amount of invincibility frames of grabbing the ledge have been reduced significantly, not to mention it is much easier to hit someone hanging on the edge, for reasons that I don't understand) as he will either be hit off the edge (allowing Olimar to tether) or have to roll, in which case Olimar has enough time to tether anyway. Peach players created a similar "AT" for Peach in which she can fair the edgehogger and then umbrella, so I don't see why this wouldn't work for Olimar's tether.

I'm basing this on the assumption that the Olimar player will have the maximum number of pikmin at his disposal, as they are quite easy to produce in a short amount of time (~1.5 seconds to pull out 6).

What do you think? It seems more plausible to me than throwing a purple pikmin.

As for Ivysaur or Zamus, whatever. Olimar is way cooler.
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When you are close ehough to foward air the character, right after the attack you will end up slightly underneath the ledge and facing the opposite directions, which wouldnt be a problem for a different character but with olimars tether it just wouldnt work.
 
D

Digital Angel

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Brawl is dead, Suicide Bowser, Edge-Hog=tether worthlessness. Let's face the facts guys Brawl is dead. I can't wait til Smash 4.
 
Goldkirby

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Digital Angel said:
Brawl is dead, Suicide Bowser, Edge-Hog=tether worthlessness. Let's face the facts guys Brawl is dead. I can't wait til Smash 4.
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Huh, that's wierd. These things just make the game a whole lot more interesting for me. I don't doubt that Brawl will be a great game, only bad thing are the stupid drama queens like you overreacting to every little thing.

PROTIP: Broken s*** makes the game a whole lot more interesting to play.
 
yoshi_fan

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Goldkirby said:
Huh, that's wierd. These things just make the game a whole lot more interesting for me. I don't doubt that Brawl will be a great game, only bad thing are the stupid drama queens like you overreacting to every little thing.

PROTIP: Broken s*** makes the game a whole lot more interesting to play.
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Yeah sure /sarcasm

MMm, like someone said the past page... why don't we ban ledgehogging?
 
M

MK-Ultra

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Olimar's definitely not at any sort of disadvantage when he can throw that white Pikmin. 50 Forkin' damage EACH.
 
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OrlanduEX

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Goldkirby said:
PROTIP: Broken s*** makes the game a whole lot more interesting to play.
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Quoted for muthaf***in truth

Balance is fine and all, but UNBALANCE will keep you hooked for years. I think it's the intrinsic unbalance/brokenness and the abuse thereof in games like Marvel vs Capcom 2 and even Melee that kept people playing it for years.
 
D

dinhotheone

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brawl is dead? you sir are an idiot. suicide bowser? yes lets all fear the uprising of boswer from low tier because now he can SUICIDE! i may just have to think before i mindlessly jump at bowser for an edgeguard no way! and olimar apparently can do hundreds of damage before getting hit. even assuming that we have figured out every nook and cranny of olimars recovery game, someone who can deal 100 damage with only projectiles is disgusting.

now my impression on this problem: invincibility frames for ledgehog are not immence if im not mistaken. and olimars up b is wicked powerful. from what ive heard, nailing an edgehogger with it is a powerful stagespike. so basically a suicide kill. assuming you do not want to pepper them with fair and then survive. all that you have to do for the stagespike would be aim the upb for that f'ers face. if he rolls off like a woman then you survive to fight somemore, if not then you get a kill. it then becomes a battle of who can stall longer. you in the air, him with invinciblility. in addition to having to look out for fairs, he will have to look out for stagespike kills, edgeguarding olimar may become a bit harder for this person.
 
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OrlanduEX

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dinhotheone said:
brawl is dead? you sir are an idiot. suicide bowser? yes lets all fear the uprising of boswer from low tier because now he can SUICIDE! i may just have to think before i mindlessly jump at bowser for an edgeguard no way! and olimar apparently can do hundreds of damage before getting hit. even assuming that we have figured out every nook and cranny of olimars recovery game, someone who can deal 100 damage with only projectiles is disgusting.

now my impression on this problem: invincibility frames for ledgehog are not immence if im not mistaken. and olimars up b is wicked powerful. from what ive heard, nailing an edgehogger with it is a powerful stagespike. so basically a suicide kill. assuming you do not want to pepper them with fair and then survive. all that you have to do for the stagespike would be aim the upb for that f'ers face. if he rolls off like a woman then you survive to fight somemore, if not then you get a kill. it then becomes a battle of who can stall longer. you in the air, him with invinciblility. in addition to having to look out for fairs, he will have to look out for stagespike kills, edgeguarding olimar may become a bit harder for this person.
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Truth. Olimar has the tools to fight edgehogging, but the same can't be said for Ivysaur or Zamus....
 
Nobie

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Zero Suit Samus can use her Up B multiple times in the air, and it doesn't penalize her by taking away her jumps, and she can use her Down B.

If anything, she's the least affected by it.
 
Gerbil

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OrlanduEX said:
Truth. Olimar has the tools to fight edgehogging, but the same can't be said for Ivysaur or Zamus....
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Are you sure?

I dunno about Ivy, but I thought I saw a vid of ZSS using a downB in midair that gives her a third jump correct? You can attack out of that third jump, and it's a spike at the tip of the foot. (Or so I saw anyways). While I agree ZSS's recovery might be "slightly" hindered by a simple thing such as an edgehog, I'm sure something to the effect that I described is entirely possible.

I can see the problem this thread is creating, but I for some reason don't believe it will be that simple to kill someone lol. I guess it will take some more time and research.

@TC - Awesome find. I dunno if you were first to find it or not, but this is pretty cool to me.

EDIT: Nobie beat me to it lol. Darn me and my attempts to lengthen explanations >.>
 
AdmantNESS

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Didn't someone say something about Ivy using razor leaf to knock off the ledgehogger then using vine whip?
 
B

B J

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Like others said, olimar can throw pikmin first then up B, Zamus seems to have another "jump" from the down B, and ivysaur probably has something that he can do. Edge hogging will just have to be something tether recovery characters will have to overcome, and theres no doubt in my mind right now that it Can't be overcome.
 
S

Sideem Slingh

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Well, the solution to this problem is actually the key to ultimately winning this game: Don't get hit!

(Honestly, just try not to get killed. So you're more defensive, and stick to the middle of the stage. You do what you gotta do if you're a tether character)
 
Phelix08

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I'm just wondering if you guys considered the possibility that this is 100% intentional. It seems that Sakurai made PT versatile enough to avoid this unless you always play Ivysaur, and Olimar seems rather overpowered (I just watched a movie of him doing 0-100% damage in about a second with 2 white pikmin). Because everyone can edgehog so easily this game, I'm pretty sure they are aware of the way this hurts the tether recover-ists(?). I'm far from saying this makes them immune to it, but I'm willing to bet they have ways of combating it (though not necessarily through recovery abilities; other things like fighting strength could make up for it).

Edit: Lol, I didn't even think of my sig when I posted this
 
1

180OP

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this is a serious programming flaw. most likely to be fixed if brought to the attention of devs before the US release.
 
Itakio

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I don't think there will be any differences between the two versions since they will have to play online together.
 
V

Vortok

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A look at the whole thing in reverse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J37Cvs50SHM
Middle of the vid, he talks about Zamus's recovery and shows some application, which I'm pretty sure will apply to the other tether recoveries.

There's at least two sides to every story. Investigate more, speculate less plzkthxbai.
 
staindgrey

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I know this has been touched on but it seems no one pays attention to this point, so I'll say it:

Isn't it possible that Sakurai intended for this to be a weakness? He watched the pros play, so he knew all about edgeguarding. There's no way that he or his massive team couldn't have thought of this problem. So, there are two things that could happen:

1) There is a way to get past a cheap edgehogger (Zamus's 3rd jump would be the most obvious one)
2) It's simply a weakness that can be exploited by a smart opponent, just like with every other character.

Seriously, think about it. First off, by what I've seen of videos, Olimar looks plenty strong, as well as annoying lol If he had a good recovery move, he'd be plenty of people's main. He'd be a beast. This gives him a small weakness- I say small because of, as many have mentioned, the overall "floatiness" of the game. More recoveries in this game seem to be coming downward than in Melee, so here's a simple, not fool-proof though, solution: avoid getting edgeguarded at all costs. Seriously, it's just what you have to account for. For instance, with Olimar, regardless of where you're getting hit, you have to make sure, especially when you're racking up on damage, that you have plenty of Pikmin out. If you can't make it because you were short on the tether, that's not a weakness, that was poor planning. And in Ivysaur's case, if you're getting up there in damage, switch Pokemon asap!

My point is, though these are definite weaknesses, they need to be accounted for. Just like Boswer's weakness in speed, Pikachu's weakness in weight, etc. The dedicated Olimar mains will find a way, trust me. I believed anything was possible one I saw professionals with Bowser and DK owning at 1 on 1. Just give the game time! For crying out loud, no one is going to master a version in a different language that they've had for a couple weeks!
 
I

icy_icicle

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ThatGuyWhoseNameICannotRememberRightNow]THAT IS Another good way said:
When you are close ehough to foward air the character, right after the attack you will end up slightly underneath the ledge and facing the opposite directions, which wouldnt be a problem for a different character but with olimars tether it just wouldnt work.
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Actually (I've done this many times so I know it works), with Brawl's new slow falling you have plenty of time to move from slightly inside of the ledge to directly under the ledge. Since the direction you're facing doesn't matter, and there is no one on the ledge, Olimar will grab it, i.e. his tether recovery will work.
 
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DRaGZ

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^ Poster above me:

That statement just shows how little you've actually been observing information that's been shown about Brawl. Tsk tsk.

Olimar is absurdly powerful, ZSS can make it back with Down+B, and you probably shouldn't be using Ivysaur beyond a certain percentage anyway.
 
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