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Edge Hogging completely destroys tether recovery characters*EDITED*

staindgrey

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It sounds cheap but edgehogging is a legit way to beat these characters. Just like trying to knock Peach up because she's so light, or keeping DK down because he has such a hard time getting up.

Wow, AFTER I wrote that sentence I realized how blatantly sexual it was. Cool.
 

icy_icicle

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Who can presume to understand the mind?

There's no point arguing about what Sakurai's intentions were. You'll never know.
 

MikeMan445

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Why are people saying "how could this not have come up in testing?"

Are you guys absolutely mad? Sakurai and pals just don't play smash brothers like we do, at all.

They jump around and smash and stuff. They wouldn't edgehog or balance the game around that. The game was quite clearly designed for and by people who just jump around and smash, and let people get back to the ledge, all friendly like.
 

The_Woebegone_Jackal

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ya know I have to agree with the obvious... DK's upB was horrible verticaly and was killed quite easily with meteors/spikes in Melee and it seems in Brawl as well. Yet DK users got around that, what makes use think an Olimar or Ivisoar won't?
 

WeltallZero

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Why are people saying "how could this not have come up in testing?"

Are you guys absolutely mad? Sakurai and pals just don't play smash brothers like we do, at all.

They jump around and smash and stuff. They wouldn't edgehog or balance the game around that. The game was quite clearly designed for and by people who just jump around and smash, and let people get back to the ledge, all friendly like.
And you know all of this because...?
 

ff7freddy

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Jan 2, 2008
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but what if someone is hanging on the edge, and someone like link has a damage dealing Up+B attack, and attacks the person hanging on the edge, can you then grab the edge so that you can recover? this is kind of a mystery for me.....
 

Ekaru

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Why are people saying "how could this not have come up in testing?"

Are you guys absolutely mad? Sakurai and pals just don't play smash brothers like we do, at all.

They jump around and smash and stuff. They wouldn't edgehog or balance the game around that. The game was quite clearly designed for and by people who just jump around and smash, and let people get back to the ledge, all friendly like.

*facepalm* There. Was. A. Points Award. For. Edgehogging. In. Melee.

Seriously, remember the points system in Melee, and the whole reward thing where you could check in options how many of those you got for various things in a match? 'Edge hogging' was one of them! It was 'holding the ledge so someone else couldn't grab it'. Sakurai was AWARE of edge-hogging! So he probably kept that in mind during design. Also, edge-guarding is common sense, so they probably do that too, in 1v1 matches at least.

Chances are they came upon this in testing but intended for it to be this way. But it does leave Olimar at a disadvantage. Guess we just have to find a way around it, especially since edgehogging is much easier in Brawl (they probably made grabbing the edge easier on purpose to balance things out, like Mario's Cape and make edge hogging not as 'cheap' to casual players.)

Nothing else to say though, since everyone else already mentioned most of the theories I had. We may figure something out in a few months though. MAYBE.
 

joeysmash

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the invicible frames upon grabbing an edge are a lot less, so i think you can smack the guy with your upB after they run out, I have seen a few vids in which this happens
 

Itakio

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But it's already been stated that even if you hit them with the up B then you still won't grab the ledge.
 

Proven

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At least you'll often still get the kill. Just don't end up a stock less.
 

Dragonboy2k4

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I know this has been touched on but it seems no one pays attention to this point, so I'll say it:

Isn't it possible that Sakurai intended for this to be a weakness? He watched the pros play, so he knew all about edgeguarding. There's no way that he or his massive team couldn't have thought of this problem. So, there are two things that could happen:

1) There is a way to get past a cheap edgehogger (Zamus's 3rd jump would be the most obvious one)
2) It's simply a weakness that can be exploited by a smart opponent, just like with every other character.

Seriously, think about it. First off, by what I've seen of videos, Olimar looks plenty strong, as well as annoying lol If he had a good recovery move, he'd be plenty of people's main. He'd be a beast. This gives him a small weakness- I say small because of, as many have mentioned, the overall "floatiness" of the game. More recoveries in this game seem to be coming downward than in Melee, so here's a simple, not fool-proof though, solution: avoid getting edgeguarded at all costs. Seriously, it's just what you have to account for. For instance, with Olimar, regardless of where you're getting hit, you have to make sure, especially when you're racking up on damage, that you have plenty of Pikmin out. If you can't make it because you were short on the tether, that's not a weakness, that was poor planning. And in Ivysaur's case, if you're getting up there in damage, switch Pokemon asap!

My point is, though these are definite weaknesses, they need to be accounted for. Just like Boswer's weakness in speed, Pikachu's weakness in weight, etc. The dedicated Olimar mains will find a way, trust me. I believed anything was possible one I saw professionals with Bowser and DK owning at 1 on 1. Just give the game time! For crying out loud, no one is going to master a version in a different language that they've had for a couple weeks!

QFT Ignoring what was said here shows whos clueless on those type of situtions without following "a how to play"guide via Smashboards.
 

Mikezor

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Jan 22, 2006
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Seriously, the problem is easy to fix.

Olimar plays an AMAZING keep away game.

About the others, I don't know, but basically... don't get hit.
 

Itakio

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At least you'll often still get the kill. Just don't end up a stock less.
They won't necessarily die from stage spikage unless they are at a high percent. With the buffed recoveries I'd assume that it takes a bit to KO someone like that. Plus, if you're opponent knows what he's doing, he'll probably renew his invincibility frames by jumping back onto the ledge until you are in reach anyway.
 

Proven

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That just gives you a chance to connect; It takes an extra moment before you can re-grab a ledge.
 

Krell

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Well, we need some way to beat that sick powerhouse Olimar. And we already knew Ivysaur was the worst of the PT Pokemon.
 

UrajKingofDarkness

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From what I've seen in videos so far, the one thing that keeps striking me as odd is that, despite the ability to DI upwards far more easily in this game than in Melee and therefore recover higher, everyone keeps trying to recover low. Perhaps the problem isn't in the recovery as much as it is in the way people keep trying to recover.

Bear with me please. I'm aware that tether recovery characters can't really use their recovery move up high (especially Olimar, whose upB always goes upwards) but the way it seems, except for characters with exceptional air skill and impeccable timing (like a well-versed Jigglypuff or possibly Pit) it shouldn't be THAT difficult for a recovery character to get back.

My thought: DI upwards, but don't use your double jump immediately. Freefall back towards the stage, and if the opponent is trying to hog, then attack them. Either they hop away to regain invincibility (thus possibly opening a window to recover in, however briefly) or get hit and free up the space anyways. Your double jump could give you a pocket of comfort to work in.

Of course I'm just speculating, as I've yet to play and can only go off of what I've seen. The point I'm thinking, though, is that there's no WAY that such an egregious error could've been made on the dev's part that they'd overlook something this crucial for characters who rely on this method of recovery.

Until more people really try different approaches (which should theoretically easier when more than a small handful of people in the country get some extended time with the game) there's not much more that can be said though. Let's keep fingers crossed.
 

Proven

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Eh, save your double jump and air-dodge in. You don't realize how much that gets people.
 

icy_icicle

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Especially when you can air dodge as many times as you want without losing control. People aren't expecting a second air dodge, which is a nice, short-lived advantage.
 
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