"Echo Characters"

[KingBroly]

Exactly, Dark Samus is a given right now, just for the fact that the Alt Color of Dark Samus was removed from Samus alts.
There's literally no reason they do this otherwise cause all the other colors are fine.

"It's to avoid confusion between Dark Samus AT and that alt color" if that's the case why was it in smash 4 to begin with.

I'm personally ok with this, I'm a huge Metroid fan and I'll I've wanted is more Metroid reps, we FINALLY got Ridley and while I always imagined Dark Samus with a unique moveset, I'll take what I can get.

If color confusion was a thing, Mario wouldn't have a Waluigi color. But he does. The colors aren't even of something related to Samus, they're just different.

 

[Altais]

Here's a question - we're throwing out loads of different ideas for echoes, but what would make them stand out as an echo character opposed to being an alt costume?

Example: Olimar and Alph are literal palette swaps, and have no differences at all. Peach/Daisy share moves, but have slight differences in animation or mechanics, but nothing major, while Fox/Falco share moves but have much larger differences in their mechanics.

This is a very thought-provoking question.

For start, the Echo Character has to be fairly popular. This is probably why Daisy was added, and why I'm expecting Dark Samus.

Second, there has to be at least one minor difference that would motivate players to use the Echo Fighter, as opposed to their counterpart. In Smash 4, many people preferred Dark Pit over Pit because his Electroshock Arm launched the enemy at a different angle than Pit's Upperdash Arm, while others liked Pit better for his more flexible arrows. Some people preferred Lucina over Marth, because her power was evened along her blade, while Marth's power was focused on the tip of his blade.

This is exactly why I would like to see Young Cricket in Smash. Though Cricket is not nearly as popular as Ashley, I think he would make a great Echo Fighter of Lucario. Unlike Lucario, whose attack power builds as he takes damage, Young Cricket's power would always stay the same. Cricket's Aura Sphere would be faster and fly in a straight line, and his Force Palm could have less range but higher knockback.

I can see Dark Samus being exactly the same as Samus, only the former's projectiles and energy-based attacks are made of Phazon, which would stick to the opponent, continuously dealing damage.

I don't know how popular he is, but I could see the Masked Man from Mother 3 being Meta Knight's Echo Fighter. Aside from having a different build, Masked Man's special moves could involve lightning. Unlike Meta Knight's Mach Tornado, which deals multiple hits, Masked Man's lightning tornado could knock enemies away. Masked Man's Drill Rush could be less flexible, but more powerful. Lastly, his down special could have a stun effect.

 

[Stryks]

If color confusion was a thing, Mario wouldn't have a Waluigi color. But he does. The colors aren't even of something related to Samus, they're just different.

Exactly, while mind you Mario and Waluigi have VERY different proportions, Mario has a Waluigi alt while Waluigi is an AT.
Samus had a Dark Samus alt while Dark Samus was an AT
Mario STILL has a Waluigi alt when he's confirmed to be an AT in Smash 5
But Samus lost her alt of Dark Samus with no confirmation if she's an AT

 

[Deleted member]

You guys, I would love for Dark Samus to be in Smash, but I just don't think she would make sense as an echo of Samus. Also, we have only seen 30 out of 50 assist trophies so just because we haven't seen the Dark Samus assist trophy doesn't mean she isn't still one.

Dark Samus moves and behaves completely different from Samus--more feral and aggressive, not to mention the fact that she always floats around rather than walks. Besides that, she doesn't deploy bombs, doesn't shoot missiles, and just like all of her moves and animations would be so vastly different. She's not even much of a clone of Samus in the games either--she just happens to resemble her because of fusing with Samus's Phazon Suit. Her assist trophy is way more true to her character than if she was an echo of Samus.

 

[Stryks]

You guys, I would love for Dark Samus to be in Smash, but I just don't think she would make sense as an echo of Samus. Also, we have only seen 30 out of 50 assist trophies so just because we haven't seen the Dark Samus assist trophy doesn't mean she isn't still one.

Dark Samus moves and behaves completely different from Samus--more feral and aggressive, not to mention the fact that she always floats around rather than walks. Besides that, she doesn't deploy bombs, doesn't shoot missiles, and just like all of her moves and animations would be so vastly different. She's not even much of a clone of Samus in the games either--she just happens to resemble her because of fusing with Samus's Phazon Suit. Her assist trophy is way more true to her character than if she was an echo of Samus.

Look I hear you, I've been vouching for Dark Samus since before Brawl was even released, BUT the whole 'Samus and Dark Samus' thing hold very little water when Daisy is using toads in her moveset when Toads are from the mushroom kingdom and Daisy is from Sarasawhatever land.

Likewise if I recall correctly Dark Pit never uses any of the weapons that Pit did in Uprising, tho I can't recall so I could be wrong on that one.

Maybe she's a clone and not an echo fighter, I'd still be down with that, but it's only a matter of time to see if she gets announces as one or the other or as an AT.

 

[Starbound]

Dark Samus' attacks could be embedded with Phazon, which applies a poison effect similar to White Pikmin (residual damage). It would have weaker attacks in terms of base damage and knockback as a tradeoff for being better at racking up damage. You could mess with some attributes, like being lighter since Dark Samus is kind of ethereal.

 

[Wonks]

How about Harry from Teleroboxer? The Virtual Boy has gotten no representation in Smash. Harry could be an Echo of Little Mac, just more powerful and slower.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Here's a question - we're throwing out loads of different ideas for echoes, but what would make them stand out as an echo character opposed to being an alt costume?

Considering that they haven't actually shown any of the Echoes in play yet, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were actually EXACTLY the same moveset, just with different stat spreads.

And if that's all an Echo ends up being, then you could justify pretty much anything as an Echo.

II honestly don't anticipate we'll get too many echo fighters; I think Sakurai just gave them a fancy new name since so many people complained about how "lazy" new roster additions like Dark Pit and Lucina were.

And you know what? Kinda works. Calling them Echoes makes them not "real" characters, so it makes it okay that they're easy clones.

 

[Wonks]

You know, Sora Ltd. could have a lot of wide open options for Mach Rider as an Echo. He can be an Echo of Falcon, or she (you heard that right) could be an Echo of Zero Suit Samus, since there's no clear answer if Mach Rider is a male or female given the ending of his/her game(s).

 

[SmashChu]

Since the conversation has focused on Dark Samus, I don't think she will happen. While Ridley got in due to being a popular character, I don't think that will help everyone (as Krystal, Waluigi and Lyn are still assist trophies). Also, Echo fighters will still take work since they have to make a new model and animations so there likely won't be many in general. In Dark Samus's case, she isn't that popular. If anything, she was popular because Metroid had so few characters and she was suggested for that reason. There are two Echo Fighters I'm expecting.

Ribbon Girl - This is mostly as I'm expecting Spring Man. Since they really haven't shown much from 2017 games but have teased a New Donk City stage, I'm thinking there is a good shot ARMS will happen in Smash. Ribbon Girl works because there aren't a ton of (obvious) differences between the ARMS characters. Its mostly different arms and two abilities. It would be very easy to give Spring Man his two attributes (Rage and Deflecting) and Ribbon Girl hers (4 jumps plus fast fall). Also, a lot of the arms have variations of each other that are mostly different elements (say, the Toasters and the Shockers). Since they are the same model with a different color, it would be easy to add these to give the characters more differences. For instance, give SPring Man the Boomerange and Ribbon Girl the Challenge. I should also note that Spring Man and Ribbon Girl are often shown together in promotional stuff (the first trailer and the box art for instance). I think this is the direction they'll go with these characters.

Shadow - Of all the guest series, the one fans most want a second character from is Sonic. With every other series, fans are pretty much content with whats there. Take Final Fantasy. Even though characters like Black Mage were common, discussion of these characters died when Cloud was shown. For whatever reason, Sonic has always had demand for more characters. WIth Knuckles being an assist trophy (another popular suggestion), I could see Shadow being added. Even in their own games, they are very similar (especially in Sonic Adventure 2 Battle). The major differences would be Shadow's running animation and the fact Shadow has to have Chaos control. They could also add something where his kicks are slightly slower but are stronger from his rocket shoes. Im sure Sakurai got a lot of suggestions for Sonic characters in the Ballot so I wouldn't be surprised if they go this route. If you are talking about adding Echoes for popular characters, Shadow makes the most sense.

 

[Malkior7]

I think True Form Midna as an echo fighter of Zelda (probably would have been better if it was still TP Zelda but I think it can still work) would be pretty cool.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I think True Form Midna as an echo fighter of Zelda (probably would have been better if it was still TP Zelda but I think it can still work) would be pretty cool.

I'm more thinking Hilda who has TP Zelda's more reserved animations and holds that staff (even if she doesn't use it in attacks.)

Zelda herself does have a lot of Echo potential as she's the game's pure mage character (Robin has a Sword and Mewtwo has funny proportions) and I've heard some rumblings of Gardevoir as a Zelda echo which would be dope but can't see it happening. (OW, my hopes!)

 

[GoodGrief741]

You know, Sora Ltd. could have a lot of wide open options for Mach Rider as an Echo. He can be an Echo of Falcon, or she (you heard that right) could be an Echo of Zero Suit Samus, since there's no clear answer if Mach Rider is a male or female given the ending of his/her game(s).

I wouldn’t mind Mach Rider being a Falcon Echo if it meant he got in, but I always wondered what the creative minds of Sakurai’s team would come up with when given the same freedom they had with Falcon and Fox.

 

[Malkior7]

I'm more thinking Hilda who has TP Zelda's more reserved animations and holds that staff (even if she doesn't use it in attacks.)

Zelda herself does have a lot of Echo potential as she's the game's pure mage character (Robin has a Sword and Mewtwo has funny proportions) and I've heard some rumblings of Gardevoir as a Zelda echo which would be dope but can't see it happening. (OW, my hopes!)

That would be pretty awesome though we don't know if they will mix and match series like that for echo fighters (at least the ones so far are echos of characters from the same series)

 

[Guybrush20X6]

That would be pretty awesome though we don't know if they will mix and match series like that for echo fighters (at least the ones so far are echos of characters from the same series)

Well melee did it for G-man so it's not unprecedented at least.

 

[Lézard_Tekno]

it would be fun (in smash 6 because else they will not be every characters) that echo characters are a costume of the orignial one like they did with bowser.jr with lemmy morton roy ludwig and the others Or olimar with alph

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Well melee did it for G-man so it's not unprecedented at least.

Echo fighters seemingly appear next to their original versions though, it'd be pretty strange if she appeared nowhere near zelda on the roster. Besides Zelda still works better because of their proportions

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

That would be pretty awesome though we don't know if they will mix and match series like that for echo fighters (at least the ones so far are echos of characters from the same series)

Considering that Ganondorf no longer meets the echo fighter requirements, it would make very little sense to see Gardevoir be nothing more than an echo fighter of a character from a different franchise.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Echo fighters seemingly appear next to their original versions though, it'd be pretty strange if she appeared nowhere near zelda on the roster. Besides Zelda still works better because of their proportions

Depends on how the roster goes. From what we've seen so far it's done by Smash Bros debut with Echos standing next to their donor (?) so what wouldn't be much of an issue.

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

Echo fighters seemingly appear next to their original versions though, it'd be pretty strange if she appeared nowhere near zelda on the roster. Besides Zelda still works better because of their proportions

Yeah, that is a good point, if Zelda gets an echo it would be Hilda, but we are probably going to get only a couple more echo fighters. I am anticipating Isabelle and Dixie Kong.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Hilda for Zelda or Impa for Sheik in my mind.

Though in terms of strange cross series Echos, Tingle for Villager maybe?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Yeah, that is a good point, if Zelda gets an echo it would be Hilda, but we are probably going to get only a couple more echo fighters. I am anticipating Isabelle and Dixie Kong.

Absolutely no to dixie kong, my girl deserves better than being diddy with a ponytail that she doesn't use. Her not being able to use her hair in any capacity would be pretty disrespectful to her character.

Hilda for Zelda or Impa for Sheik in my mind.

Though in terms of strange cross series Echos, Tingle for Villager maybe?

If we get two Zelda series echoes but no original newcomer tho, that'll be sad lol

 

[DarthEnderX]

Put me down for also wanting Echoes to at least be from the same series as the character they're echoing.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

So I got to listen to the Gamexplain discussion on echo characters and I can see how most of my ideas would upgrade them to clones.

That being said, if customs and rock smash ARE gone it would only make sense to reuse some of those assets on echo/clone fighters. I guess we’re just gonna have to wait and see.

All I can say for certain now though I enjoy and hope to use all three echoes we currently know about.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Put me down for also wanting Echoes to at least be from the same series as the character they're echoing.

Yeah, Falcondorf (and I guess Jigglypuff) were a special case that shouldn't be revisited

 

[DarthEnderX]

So I got to listen to the Gamexplain discussion on echo characters and I can see how most of my ideas would upgrade them to clones.

Do you have a link to this?

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

https://youtu.be/uQE9Y5ERvvs can’t remember at what point they talk about echoes but it’s around 3/4 of the way in.

EDIT: They start talking about echo fighters and why Dr. Mario and Pichu are not them at around the 18:00 mark.

 

[Bolshoi]

Forget Dark Samus, I want to see Justin Bailey as an Echo for Samus.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Alright guys, what about Sans as Ness' echo fighter?

 

[Hot_N_Tasty]

Alright guys, what about Sans as Ness' echo fighter?

Get out. kappa

On a more serious note, if Sakuariwere to go through the trouble of getting a third party it would be a waste to see him just throw out an echo. That said I'd be okay with UT music in smash, and a character would be the only way for that to happen. Now that I think about San's Karma effect in UT, I wonder if any other fighters/echoes could make use of several DoT attacks.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Ninten as a Ness/Luca Echo to flesh out the whole Mother crew?

 

[RouffWestie]

Daisy, Isabelle, and Shadow as echoes I get because they're some of the most popular characters in their franchises.
I'll call Dark Samus possible because it might appear in Metroid Prime 4, but I don't know enough about Prime to know if it would.
Most other suggestions I've heard sound random, like Dry Bowser, Hilda, Ken, Funky Kong, and Blood Falcon - I'd need to hear some seriously good justification for them. Except for my Dry Boy, cuz I am biased towards him

 

[fogbadge]

how bout yuga as an echo of ganondorf?

 

[Guybrush20X6]

how bout yuga as an echo of ganondorf?

I can't see it, especially not with how built Ganondorf is in this game. Not saying it's impossible mind, just can't figure it out in my head.

 

[MattX20]

I'm fairly convinced of Hilda being one of the remaining 2 or 3 at most echo characters. Though, apart from Dark Samus, the only other potential echo fighter that could result from Samus is Sylux.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

I think the difference between clones and echos is that echos fundamentally play like the original, hence why, for example Lucina and Marth are so close o the tier list, but Dr. Mario and Mario or Fox and Falco are so far apart. Then there's the fact that echos seem to have the same proportions as the original. So it doesn't make sense imo that people want characters like Young Link or Pichu, who vary greatly in abilities and proportions to the original, to be labeled echos.

As for my choices, I think Shadow is most likely confirmed, and I think they will make him stronger but slightly slower than Sonic, maybe adding some fire attribute attacks to his kicks due to his rocket skates. I don't think he will get any chaos powers for his special attacs since no echo thus far has had different specials from their original.

Alph could work by giving him rock pikmin instead of purple pikmin. At the same time, they could make Alph pluck pikmin randomly like Olimar did in brawl VS olimar who plucks them in a specific order, making Alph's playstyle more random than Olimar's. He'd also be lighter.

A want Impa as an echo of Sheik, for no other reason bar the fact that the LOZ series needs a new rep that isn't a link clone, which we haven't gotten since melee. Impa is also the most recurring LOZ character bar the triforce trio. As for how she'd be different than Sheik, I don't think their would be much differences aside from super-minor changes, like how much knockback or damage an attack does or what direction they are launched.

True Midna could work as an echo of Zelda as well, but I think if anyone is being an echo of Zelda, it will be Hilda. Though I personally want Midna due to her being an original character rather than Hilda who is another Zelda like Toon Link is another Link.

As for other potential characters, that I don't care to be in or not:

Funky for DK
Demise for Ganon
Dark Samus for Samus
Chrom for Ike
Shadow Mewtwo for Mewtwo
Ninten for Ness

Overall, I think a total of 6-7 Echos are acceptable, maybe more considering Sakurai said we won't be getting too many newcomers, so Echos may be the best way to include more characters.

 

[fogbadge]

I can't see it, especially not with how built Ganondorf is in this game. Not saying it's impossible mind, just can't figure it out in my head.

well i guess hed be a lighter less strong version and would use his staff in place of the sword, just thought id throw the idea out there with some many people suggesting hilda


and i assume know one's suggested ravio as an echo cause we got three already

 

[G-Guy]

Ken Masters is pretty much the OG Echo fighter of fighting games; I‘d love to see him make it into the game.

„Every fighting game needs a sexy douchebag, and that’s me~~~“

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

A lot of people are talking about Dark Samus AND Shadow AND Hilda all as echoes. I’m not sure about all of them because I think we can do better than “echo = dark counterpart”. One of those three would make more sense.

Also the Gamexplain interview specifically said that echoes would have the same general properties - “walk and run speed, jump height, basic attack animations, general knockback.” ( 18:02ish) Because Dr. Mario is “heavier”, he’s no longer considered an echo. (18:16) So hopefully that clarifies a bit - it certainly did for me.

 

[Starcutter]

I was on twitter earlier and found someone's artwork of a couple Mother characters he wants as echo fighters

Specifically, the one I want to show is the one for Giygas (or Giegue if you go by the EB Beginnings name)

Spoiler

I think it would be really cool, especially since supposedly Mewtwo was based off this guy to begin with. Only problem being is that he would need a slight redesign to fit Mewtwo's build. specifically, his legs and feet. I don't think that's too much of an issue since we only really have a single sprite to work with anyways.