"Echo Characters"

ToddCam

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#43
I know it would upset the balance, but what about Bulbasaur as an Ivysaur Echo? I can't remember if Ivysaur had any moves Bulbasaur would not be able to perform.
 

AZVREx

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#48
Hey everybody!
As the title already shows you...
ive been wondering if these "Echo Fighters" are alternative costumes or if they still have their own character slots.
On the E3 demo, chars like Lucina or Dark Pit are not playable so i just wanted to throw this out here.

-

Greetings from Germany!
 

IndigoSSB

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#49
They will probably get their own slots. No lucina alt in the demo build and daisy confirms that small differences between echo fighters will still exist.
 

Diddy Kong

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#54
Made a list of what I consider to be likely echo characters:

- Chrom (Ike or Roy) - Robin's Final Smash wasn't shown unlike most characters, so he's MIA right now.
- Shadow (Sonic) - seems to be replaced by Knuckles as an AT?
- Funky Kong (Donkey Kong) - surfboard could be incorporated as an entry and through taunts
- Dixie Kong (Diddy Kong) - unless they do weird stuff with the rocket move, it doesn't seem totally likely)
- Toon Zelda (Zelda) - unless Echoes have to be literal body swaps, this could work as Phantom Zelda is more of a Toon thing
- Impa (Sheik) - Every major Zelda release has character representation except for Skyward, so this could be an option
- Dark Samus (Samus) - If we can have 3 Links, I don't know why we can't have 3 Samus.
- Medusa (Palutena) - These two are literal opposites in terms of characters so it could work thematically as well.
- Celica (Robin) - Swap weapon use mechanic for Pichu's recoil mechanic and it's basically Celica once the tomes are recolored
- Isabelle (Villager) - I thought I heard she was still an AT, but she's super popular and this is a great way to get her into the roster otherwise
I like how you think!

Impa seems extremely likely at this point, and am EXTREMELY excited because of it <3
I’d love to see Hilda from A Link Between Worlds as an echo character for Zelda. She could have darkness effects for her attacks, akin to Peach’s Shadow Queen alternate costume in Project M.
Hilda has been confirmed as a Zelda alternative constume however. Check Ganondorf's page.
 
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TriMaxTime

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#55
I’m near convinced that Shadow is an Echo of Sonic. He is super popular and definitely the #1 pick of lots of people for a second Sonic rep.

As for the others, I speculate Ninten (Ness), Ribbon Girl (Spring Man), Dark Samus, Impa (Sheik), Octoling (Inkling), Chrom (Ike), Viridi (Palutena), or even Mike Jones from StarTropics (Ness?) are all possibilities. Those are the ones I can think of right now.

I’ve always thought of Dixie Kong as an original fighter as opposed to an echo of Diddy, beyond perhaps a shared special or two. Her flight abilities in particular could make her a more formidable aerial presence.
 
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PrinceGal3n

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#58
Possible Echo Fighters:

Funky Kong (Donkey Kong)
Dark Samus (Samus)
Dixie Kong (Diddy)
Impa (Shiek)
Medusa (Palutena)
Ninten (Ness)
Chrom (Ike or Roy)
Black Shadow (Captain Falcon)
Lucas (Masked Man)

I won't count Shadow as we have no indication whether this Echo status will be given to Third Parties.
 
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Pacack

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#59
Honestly, I think characters have to have two things to meet echo criteria:
  • Identical or extremely similar builds (This rules out characters like Dixie Kong, Classic Sonic, etc.)
  • Nearly identical attack animations. (Final Smash does not have to be the same, and a single animation difference ala Lucina's neutral b isn't enough.)
  • Must be from the same series as the character they're based on. (This is admittedly speculative on my end, but I don't see us getting, say, a HW Impa Echo of Cloud.)
With this in mind, I think the most solid character choices for echos would be:
  • Dry Bowser
  • Funky Kong
  • Impa?? (SS design is too different build-wise, but HW or OoT design might be made to work.)
  • Dark Samus
  • Chrom
  • Galacta Knight
  • Ninten
  • Blood Falcon (Maybe Black Shadow could be made to work?)
  • Isabelle? (With a little height manipulation it could work?)
  • Rex (I know it would make some people upset, but it's a possibility.)
  • Ms. Pac-Man
  • Shadow
  • Ken
  • Jeanne
  • Raiden (Snake)
  • Trevor Belmont (If Simon is indeed in.)
 
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PsychoIncarnate

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#60
I thought of one I'd actually want

Raichu

Complete the line (I know ALOLAN Raichu is a pokeball)

I kind of wish Dry Bowser was a costume
 

Tonydrake

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#62
I would love to see Chrom, Impa, Isabelle, Funky, Ken or Shadow as Echo characters, I hope we can get a few of them
 
D

Deleted member

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#64
I posted this in its own thread but was advised to share my thoughts here, so here you go:

I have noticed a bit of confusion about what counts as a clone character as opposed to Sakurai's newly termed "Echo Fighters" so I'd like to clear things up.

Clones are nothing new to fighting games and have been a part of the Smash Bros. series since the very first entry on the Nintendo 64 where Luigi was a clone of Mario. What made him a clone? Well, the majority of his attack animations (both special and standard) were shared with Mario--however, even then he had many different properties and ways to make him unique, such as being taller and higher jumps, different properties with his special attacks, a few unique animations, etc. This remained true for all of the clones in Melee as well, though Luigi was differentiated further from Mario by having a different side special, and thus the progression from clone to so-called semi-clone began.

However, it might be better to think of the degree to which a character is a clone on a spectrum, or a scale, depending on how many moves they share with their original character. In that sense, Lucas can still be considered a clone of Ness but is much closer on the spectrum to unique fighter, sharing only the special moves and a few standard attacks (like forward Smash).

Smash 4 started to play more with the idea of alternate costumes that began with Wario, and introduced alternate genders for characters like Wii Fit Trainer, Villager and Robin, as well as Alph and the Koopalings. Are they clones? Well, no, since they play EXACTLY the same; they're just alternate costumes, even if they're technically a different character (like Olimar/Alph). The three "clones" in Smash 4 were originally intended as alternate costumes, but were given some minor changes in the end, and thus they could no longer be alternate costumes since they would no longer play EXACTLY the same. But they weren't really clones either, since traditionally clones, while very similar, have many more changes and in some cases completely different moves/animations (Dr. Mario is actually an exception since he would be considered a clone due to being different enough from Mario).

So really what we have here, in the case of Lucina, Dark Pit and now Daisy, is an alternate costume that has outgrown itself and thus an Echo Fighter. If Alph ever had some unique mechanic (like Rock Pikmin) from Olimar, he would be an Echo Fighter too. They may as well be alternate costumes EXCEPT that it wouldn't be entirely appropriate for them to share everything EXACTLY like the original character. That being said, they definitely have begun their first steps into clone territory, so it's possible that if any Echo Fighter were given more changes, they could be reclassified as a clone (kinda how Dr. Mario was considered as an alternate costume but ended up being a clone still).

If we used a scale, it might look like this:

0 - Alternate Costumes: Olimar/Alph, Bowser Jr./Koopalings
1 - Echo Fighters: Marth/Lucina, Pit/Dark Pit, Peach/Daisy
2 - Pikachu/Pichu
3 - Mario/Dr. Mario
4 - Marth/Roy
5 - Captain Falcon/Ganondorf
6 - Fox/Falco
7 - Ness/Lucas
8 - Fox/Wolf
9 - Mewtwo/Lucario (Aura Sphere totally ripped off Shadow Ball come on)
10 - Donkey Kong/Palutena (.....they're not related at all)

So at the end of the day Echo Fighters could be considered clones, but you could also consider them glorified alternate costumes, which, given that Sakurai is not giving them their own number, seems to be how he views them. Glass half full or half empty sort of thing. Personally, I prefer the air to view the glass half full and see these Echo Fighters as the glorified alternate costumes that they are which just means that they put in more work than they otherwise would have.

Now, if you weren't confused before, you might be now. Sorry for that.
 
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#67
I absolutely do not care who they choose in regards to Echo characters. I am in support of this idea wholeheartedly, and I'll take what is given with open arms. I won't be picky in regards to these characters. Of course, there's some that would be nice to see, but these are really just icing on the cake.

:131:
 
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Gemini-Gene

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#68
i think Dark Samus is very likely choice seeing how they took out Samus black and blue alt skin and also not confirmed as assist trophy yet
You beat me to it. It seems like we may get 2 Metroid villains this time around.

What if we got more character alt costumes than echo fighters as a way for Sakurai to squeeze more characters on the roster? I mean alt character costumes are still characters. Also I don't expect Sakurai to give us a lot of unique new fighters ( I believe we'll have more echoes). Sakurai already did the unexpected by bringing everyone back so it would be less effort to release DLC of real alt character costumes, newcomers with existing attacks & specials from fighters (pretty much low effort semi clones), and echo fighters for Ultimate's future. To stay on the safe side I'll just keep my expectations low until launch day.

Here's my list for new echo fighters ( I may be reaching with some of them but only to assume they couldn't be unique fighters) :

- Black Shadow / C. Falcon
- Mach Rider / C. Falcon
- Giegue / Mewtwo
- Shadow / Sonic
- True Midna / Zelda
- Impa / Sheik
- Urbosa / Ganondorf
- Dark Samus / Samus
- Isabelle / Villager
- Funky Kong / DK
- Slippy / Megaman
- Medusa / Palutena
 
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MoonlitIllusion

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#69
This makes me really want shadow now, his moveset would work with Sonic's really well since Sonic's is kind of generic as it is, just give him a new idle with him folding his arms, a new running animation with him skating, as well as new edgy taunts and victory animations

Also, please no dixie, I'd rather just not have her in the game than have her as a clone tbh
 
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D

Deleted member

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#70
Funny to see, after all the hate Lucina and Dark Pit got for taking up character slots, that now everyone and their dog wants a bunch more echo fighters? But, while people are suggesting echo fighters they'd like to see, it would be nice if you explained why they would be an echo fighter and not an alternate costume or even a clone.

Also Dark Samus should not be an echo or clone of Samus...you did play Metroid Prime 2 & 3 right?
 

GoodGrief741

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#71
I guess with how everyone is expecting the number of newcomers to be low, wanting somebody as an echo Fighter has a better chance of being real than a brand new one.
 

Starbound

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#73
One thing that could be interesting with echoes is hardcoded attribute multipliers. Dr. Mario was able to be a clone from the last game, and while it looks like he's been further decloned, he managed to be a last minute addition by multiplying each of Mario's attributes to make a distinct fighter (and the Down Special was stolen from a character with near identical proportions). So I think we could see Echoes with similar situations, like Dry Bowser being a lighter, weaker, faster Bowser. The moveset stays identical (save for properties or effects like Dark Pit's Electric Arm), as does the bone shape of the model (which is why Pichu isn't an echo as his model is different). Those seem to be the main criterion for being an echo, as the model can be remade and everything else just requires changing some numbers.

I don't know, I feel like there has to be a gameplay reason that the echo character gets to be a character and not a pallete swap. I would really hope that Daisy is just more than swapping hearts for flowers, even if she's basically Dark Pit in that only 5 numbers are tweaked. At least Lucina as an echo offers something distinct to make her different from Marth, and I hope she sets the precedent rather than our fallen angel.
 

Banjodorf

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#74
I’d love to see Hilda from A Link Between Worlds as an echo character for Zelda. She could have darkness effects for her attacks, akin to Peach’s Shadow Queen alternate costume in Project M.
My man/woman/person!

I would be over the moon to get Hilda. Her design is up there with OoT Ganon as one of my all-time favorites in the Zelda universe. *AND*, funnily enough, Zelda, even with her new LBW design, where a Hilda recolor would be obvious, is lacking one that even remotely resembles her. I'm hoping, hoping, hoping! And a resounding YES to those darkness effects.

Echoes seem like an interesting system, and I don't think Sakurai would have gone through the trouble of rebranding if he just intended to add one more.

Obvious Echoes I really want:

Hilda (Zelda) - Currently no Hilda recolor for Zelda, fits with the style of Zelda's look. Hmmmmmm.

Dark Samus (Samus) - Suspiciously absent Dark Samus recolor from SSB4, and an MIA AT. Seems like literally the most obvious Echo, as well as a good way to get another Metroid character and VILLAIN at that.

Ken (Ryu) - It's Ken, does it really need explaining? This has always been his role. (Until SFV really)

Funky Kong (DK) - Throw the Surfboard in the intro and taunts, otherwise it's perfectly in character for Funky to behave like DK. Bonus points for a surfing FS.

Malos (Shulk) - Give him his dark Monado, and alter a couple arts to have different properties. (Eater over Smash, Cyclone over Jump, Jail over Shield.) Go full aggression with his data. Another good way to add a good, more unusual new villain!

Will update if I think of a few more. I'm skeptical if they'll do this many, but I'm hoping this system means we can expect at least a few more. He's gone on record extolling the drastically-reduced dev time for clones, and this is such an easy way to give characters who might otherwise have much less of a shot a time in the spotlight, while still adding something new.
 

Aetheri

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#76
Dark Samus has always been my second most wanted character, while I would prefer her get in as a unique fighter on her own merits.

But I'll take her if she gets in. Especially since Midna's a lot less likely now that her Assist Trophy is confirmed.

Strange how now she's seems like a prime candidate seeing as her Assist Trophy is unaccounted for, I just hope this isn't an Isaac situation for her.
 

FrostShock

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#77
Thinking on it more, I definitely feel that making Chrom an echo of Ike is the way to go. Roy is still the Luigi to Marth's Mario, so making Chrom an echo of Roy would give us a fourth Marth. But more importantly, Ike's powerful, but unrefined fighting style is a better match for Chrom thematically.

I also thought of a couple more I'd really like to have.

Medusa (Palutena) - She has the same proportions as Palu, and even uses a staff. You'd basically just need to tweak the visuals on a few attacks, like changing the sigil on her uair, changing her up smash to a pillar of darkness, and making her wings black on her f smash and down smash. The only real problem is she doesn't have a shield, but you could easily just have her magically conjure one when she dash attacks or bairs.

Akuma (Ryu) - There are a couple reasons I'm going with Akuma over Ken. 1) Because it would be cool to see a shadowy Satsui no Hado effect on all his specials. And 2) I really want to see Raging Demon as his Final Smash.
Edit: Almost forgot, I also just really want to live in a world where I can say that Akuma is in the latest Smash and Tekken, but not the latest Marvel vs. Capcom.
 
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staindgrey

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#78
What? But they have different weapons. Why would they make them play the same?
Actually those guys did have minor differences. But the majority of the moves they used weren't weapons-based to keep them as similar as possible. Then you equip whichever "skin" you want to change which Turtle you want to be.

Bad example, actually, since every other skin switch in that game was literally the same as the original.
 
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#79
Chrom (Ike) Aether would be more diagonal, Eruption could be changed.
Alm (Roy) With no sweetspot/sourspot
And basically all of this
Made a list of what I consider to be likely echo characters:

- Chrom (Ike or Roy) - Robin's Final Smash wasn't shown unlike most characters, so he's MIA right now.
- Shadow (Sonic) - seems to be replaced by Knuckles as an AT?
- Funky Kong (Donkey Kong) - surfboard could be incorporated as an entry and through taunts
- Dixie Kong (Diddy Kong) - unless they do weird stuff with the rocket move, it doesn't seem totally likely)
- Toon Zelda (Zelda) - unless Echoes have to be literal body swaps, this could work as Phantom Zelda is more of a Toon thing
- Impa (Sheik) - Every major Zelda release has character representation except for Skyward, so this could be an option
- Dark Samus (Samus) - If we can have 3 Links, I don't know why we can't have 3 Samus.
- Medusa (Palutena) - These two are literal opposites in terms of characters so it could work thematically as well.
- Celica (Robin) - Swap weapon use mechanic for Pichu's recoil mechanic and it's basically Celica once the tomes are recolored
- Isabelle (Villager) - I thought I heard she was still an AT, but she's super popular and this is a great way to get her into the roster otherwise
 

Pippin (Peregrin Took)

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#80
We still have the assets from Dark Samus’ assist trophy right? Just put them over Samus’ model and voila!

Depending on whether or not customs come back (and based on Palutena it’s not looking good), echo fighters could also be ways to reimplement some of the standouts from those. Because tbh, I’ll probably end up missing things like Fast Fireball and Ice Breath.
 
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