"Echo Characters"

[fogbadge]

Again, you can't just add any character to pad out the roster. They need to actually be important, and that applies to Echoes as much as unique fighters do.

yes you can daisy is not an important character, pitto is not an important character dr mario is not an important character

 

[GoodGrief741]

yes you can daisy is not an important character, pitto is not an important character dr mario is not an important character

How are these characters not important? The NES Dr. Mario alone sold almost 5 million copies (it sold more than the original Punch-Out and Metroid combined). Dark Pit is heavily featured in Kid Icarus Uprising. Daisy has a very long story with the Mario franchise, and is at least more important than Rosalina and Jr.

 

[fogbadge]

How are these characters not important? The NES Dr. Mario alone sold almost 5 million copies (it sold more than the original Punch-Out and Metroid combined). Dark Pit is heavily featured in Kid Icarus Uprising. Daisy has a very long story with the Mario franchise, and is at least more important than Rosalina and Jr.

yeah theres a difference between success and importance dr mario's importance to the mario franchise as a whole is virtually non existent pitto contributed virtually nothing to the story of kid icarus uprising and daisy is not more important than jr she may have made her debut before him but she has been mostly in spin offs while jr has become the franchise's secondary antagonist

 

[GoodGrief741]

yeah theres a difference between success and importance dr mario's importance to the mario franchise as a whole is virtually non existent pitto contributed virtually nothing to the story of kid icarus uprising and daisy is not more important than jr she may have made her debut before him but she has been mostly in spin offs while jr has become the franchise's secondary antagonist

You’re making up imaginary qualifications for what constitutes as important. A game selling well makes it important. Dr. Mario the character isn’t important to Mario the series as a whole, but Dr. Mario the game (series, as it got a ton of sequels) is. Daisy is no more important than Rosalina, having debuted in a main game before getting relegated to mostly spin-off appearances. Yet I don’t see you complaining about Rosalina.

But hey, how about you tell me what makes a character important? What arbitrary conditions should characters meet in your eyes?

 

[DarthEnderX]

But hey, how about you tell me what makes a character important? What arbitrary conditions should characters meet in your eyes?

But...you used those exact same imaginary qualifications to try and explain Dark Pit, from a game that didn't sell that well.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Once again we repeat the mistake of trying to peer directly into Sakurai's mind.

 

[GoodGrief741]

But...you used those exact same imaginary qualifications to try and explain Dark Pit, from a game that didn't sell that well.

The specific reasons why Dark Pit is important and made it in, I don’t know, and I can only offer conjecture. However, some aspect of him or his game must be important to Sakurai, as he deemed him worthy enough to put him in Smash Bros.

 

[fogbadge]

You’re making up imaginary qualifications for what constitutes as important. A game selling well makes it important. Dr. Mario the character isn’t important to Mario the series as a whole, but Dr. Mario the game (series, as it got a ton of sequels) is. Daisy is no more important than Rosalina, having debuted in a main game before getting relegated to mostly spin-off appearances. Yet I don’t see you complaining about Rosalina.

But hey, how about you tell me what makes a character important? What arbitrary conditions should characters meet in your eyes?

what on earth are you on about? i did not make imaginary qualifications i was referring to their roles in their own series that they represent in smash

i didnt defend rosalina cause frankly her role in the greater mario franchise has changed a fair amount and its staring to seem like her role is much the same as daisy's an appearing only in spin-offs

dr mario may have been a very successful game but hes there as part of the greater mario franchise of which he is a very small part and using his successes to say hes important when other games in the franchise have sold way more

no need to resort to patronising and condescension

The specific reasons why Dark Pit is important and made it in, I don’t know, and I can only offer conjecture. However, some aspect of him or his game must be important to Sakurai, as he deemed him worthy enough to put him in Smash Bros.

the most likely reason is cause sakurai made him

 

[Quillion]

yes you can daisy is not an important character, pitto is not an important character dr mario is not an important character

Daisy is a main series Mario character if only for one game, and she's always been a staple spinoff character as well.

Dark Pit was a major character in Uprising, and if the series somehow continues, he probably will continue to be a major character.

Dr. Mario is definitely an anomaly, though. But he's an artifact from the 64-Melee days when faithfulness to canon was less of a concern.

 

[fogbadge]

Daisy is a main series Mario character if only for one game, and she's always been a staple spinoff character as well.

Dark Pit was a major character in Uprising, and if the series somehow continues, he probably will continue to be a major character.

doesnt really make her important to be a spin-off staple, and dark pit may have been a major character but what did he actually contribute to the story of uprising bar saving pit in one chapter?

 

[DMurr]

Chrom and Dark Samus follow what is somewhat of a trend from the three echo fighters in that they started as an alt.

Pit had Dark Pit colors before Dark Pit existed (in Brawl).
Lucina was added to basically be the female version of Marth but upgraded.
Peach has had a Daisy recolor since Melee.

We know based on the E3 demo that Ike no longer has Chrom colors and Samus no longer has Dark Samus colors. These are the two most obvious echoes that I expect to get, since we know what all of their costumes are.
Dixie Kong is really the only other possibility like this, in my opinion.

 

[Igglybuff4SmashU]

MINUN - PLUSLE please

 

[fogbadge]

i wouldnt mind the president as an echo for olimar

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I think that people are beginning to overthink the concept of echoes, and as a result lose touch with realistic echo character possibilities.

One thing I notice is that people tend to look for any slight similarity between any character currently in the roster and a “potential echo” and immediately consider that echo “likely” due to said similarities, no matter how far a stretch it actually is. Giygas as a Mewteo echo comes to mind...

Sakurai’s team isnt just going to start slapping echo characters in because the character slightly looks or plays like another one. What I believe is that the Echo Character spots are saved for characters who are at least somewhat popular, but not quite popular enough to justify putting in the time to create an entirely new character out of them. Therefore, they’re made into echoes, so that they can still be put into the game with only a fraction of the time needed to develop them.

I also think that cross-series echo fighters isn’t going to be a thing. Yes, we had Ganondorf in Melee, but Sakurai stated himself that Ganondorf barely got in. Making him a Falcon clone was an afterthought. No reason to believe that’s going to happen again. Besides, I haven’t seen a single cross-series echo suggested that wasn’t in some way a stretch.

If it makes sense for the character and they're similar enough, why not? Ganondorf was a different matter since he's such an iconic character with his own skillset to pull from the source material and they just slapped him on a slower Captain Falcon. Something like, I dunno, Dr. Eggman over Bowser Jr makes more sense since they both use flying mech pods and gadgets.

Not saying I WANT Eggman to be a BJ echo (give him his own moveset!) but it's a good example.

Eh, I wouldn’t consider that a good example. In fact, I’d consider it a stretch. You’re right that they both have the mechs and abilities that are similar, but the proportions are WAY off.

I hate to use the size argument after Ridley got confirmed, but this is different. The thing about Ridley is that he is still one of the biggest characters, most importantly, bigger than Samus. Bowser is bigger than Mario, too. Bowser Jr., however, is smaller than Sonic (his model alone, not the clown car). That would be one tiny Eggman.

Regardless, Shadow is the much more obvious choice for a Sonic Series echo. He’s more popular, is similar in both shape and stats to Sonic, and was even presented in his debut game as an alternate Sonic... an “anti-Sonic.”

 

[Hydra of Chaos]

Spoiler: spoiler for XC2 ch.7

I would really like Malos as a Shulk Echo, more villains and more XC-chars are alway good

 

[Garo]

I think Ken would make for a really cool Echo Fighter for Ryu. I'd Imagine the differences to be something like this:

Hadoken: As Ryu is canonically the one stronger in Hado-arts, Ken's Hadoken would be weaker, doing less damage.
Tatsumaki: As in the games, Ken's Tatsumaki would deal multiple weaker hits instead of one strong hit. This would make it safer since shielding one hit wouldn't negate the rest.
Shoryuken: Ryu's stronger with Hado, but Ken's stronger with Shoryu. More damage and knockback than Ryu's version and the input variation would have a fire effect.
Red Focus Attack: Instead of tanking a single hit of any strength, this could tank multiple hits under a certain damage, making it better against characters with weaker or multi-hit attacks like Sheik, but worse against characters with strong single-hit attacks like Ganondorf.

Final Smash: Ken would have two Final Smashes just like Ryu. If an opponent's close, he would do a Shinryuken, dealing strong vertical knockback. If the opponent's far away, he would do a Guren Senpukyaku, zooming across the stage with multiple flaming spin kicks, finishing with a final kick that deals strong horizontal knockback.

 

[Hydra of Chaos]

I think Ken would make for a really cool Echo Fighter for Ryu. I'd Imagine the differences to be something like this:

Hadoken: As Ryu is canonically the one stronger in Hado-arts, Ken's Hadoken would be weaker, doing less damage.
Tatsumaki: As in the games, Ken's Tatsumaki would deal multiple weaker hits instead of one strong hit. This would make it safer since shielding one hit wouldn't negate the rest.
Shoryuken: Ryu's stronger with Hado, but Ken's stronger with Shoryu. More damage and knockback than Ryu's version and the input variation would have a fire effect.
Red Focus Attack: Instead of tanking a single hit of any strength, this could tank multiple hits under a certain damage, making it better against characters with weaker or multi-hit attacks like Sheik, but worse against characters with strong single-hit attacks like Ganondorf.

Final Smash: Ken would have two Final Smashes just like Ryu. If an opponent's close, he would do a Shinryuken, dealing strong vertical knockback. If the opponent's far away, he would do a Guren Senpukyaku, zooming across the stage with multiple flaming spin kicks, finishing with a final kick that deals strong horizontal knockback.

That almost sounds like a Semi-clone, not like a Echo.

 

[Garo]

As I understand, Echo Fighters' moves have the same sized hitboxes as the one they are an Echo of, but the effects can differ. FInal Smash can be completely different as shown by Pit using the Lightning Chariot and Dark Pit using the Dark Pit Staff.

 

[Hydra of Chaos]

As I understand, Echo Fighters' moves have the same sized hitboxes as the one they are an Echo of, but the effects can differ. FInal Smash can be completely different as shown by Pit using the Lightning Chariot and Dark Pit using the Dark Pit Staff.

Does Dark Pit still use the staff? i thought they changed Pits to Lighning Chariot so it would fit both

 

[ZTurtle]

Does Dark Pit still use the staff? i thought they changed Pits to Lighning Chariot so it would fit both

You would think... but nah, Dark Pit still uses his staff as we can see from his artwork and

this screenshot from his page on the site.

 

[Hydra of Chaos]

wel, ok then i guess they can have differnt FS... Now I´m wondering even more why they changed Pits FS, his old one was much better

 

[Oracle_Summon]

I am of the notion that Akuma or Ken would be a good echo character for Ryu.

Ken - has weaker hadokens but stronger shoryukens with fire effects like Roy did in Melee.

Akuma - has stronger knock back and damage than Ryu, but is easier to launch.

 

[DarthEnderX]

wel, ok then i guess they can have differnt FS... Now I´m wondering even more why they changed Pits FS, his old one was much better

Because it was a timed transformation FS, and they got rid of all of those.

 

[DMurr]

You would think... but nah, Dark Pit still uses his staff as we can see from his artwork and

this screenshot from his page on the site.

I would've been really surprised if they'd changed Dark Pit's Final Smash, to be honest. It was a copy of Zelda & Sheik's and both of them had their's changed to something new.

 

[Hydra of Chaos]

Because it was a timed transformation FS, and they got rid of all of those.

No? He just fired light arrows and stuff all over the stage

 

[Mr Gentleman]

I got another Echo Fighter Idea I want! it's never gonna happen, and really I'd be fine with a skin even. but Zack Fair as a Cloud Echo

 

[DarthEnderX]

So with Richter announced, we can now confirm that 3P characters can have echoes. So that's that argument put to rest.

Shadow is practically a given at this point. Really hoping Ken gets in too.

Oh and yeah, Chrom and Dark Samus.

 

[fogbadge]

come on tails echo

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

So apparently echoes can have different moves, maybe only if they're borrowed from other fighters if Chrom being a roy echo with Ike's up b is anything to go by.

I'm 100% expecting Shadow as a Sonic echo with Mewtwo's up B at this point.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Oh, also interesting that you'll be able to choose to collapse echo fighters on the character select screen or not.

So if you're like me and have a problem with the whole "wasted character slot!" thing, the game at least allows you to humor yourself.

 

[Aeon Lupin]

Yeah, between his continued absence as an assist trophy, and 3rd parties also getting echoes, Shadow is extremely likely. And yep, we were right to be suspicious on the Chrom and Dark Samus colors missing in the E3 build.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Personally, with Chrom and Dark Samus, I am now expecting Ninten to make the cut. And maybe a Falcon clone in B. Shadow or Blood Falcon? Throw F-Zero a bone Sakurai.

 

[PeridotGX]

Personally, with Chrom and Dark Samus, I am now expecting Ninten to make the cut. And maybe a Falcon clone in B. Shadow or Blood Falcon? Throw F-Zero a bone Sakurai.

If we get a Falcon echo I actually think it'll be Blaziken. It's pretty popular, and the ballot happened directly after ORAS, so it was on people's minds even more. Sure they aren't from the same series but it fits too well.

Also, with the reveal of Alcurd it can be seen that Echoes can come from newcomers. Octoling even more likely?

 

[fogbadge]

hang we have 4 marths now? seems a tad excessive

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Personally, with Chrom and Dark Samus, I am now expecting Ninten to make the cut. And maybe a Falcon clone in B. Shadow or Blood Falcon? Throw F-Zero a bone Sakurai.

Tbh I don't see it happening, echoes seem to be more about adding popular characters, hence why Darky Sammy and Chrom are here

 

[GoodGrief741]

Tbh I don't see it happening, echoes seem to be more about adding popular characters, hence why Darky Sammy and Chrom are here

It also feels like they’re going all out with Echoes, and I can see Ninten having a surprise amount of support (large enough to merit consideration for an easy clone, at least).

 

[Altais]

So with Richter announced, we can now confirm that 3P characters can have echoes. So that's that argument put to rest.

Pretty much what I was going to say. And yes, I do see Ken as a likely Echo Fighter. Mine money is also on Tails or Shadow. Shadow would probably be easier to make, due to his model being closer to Sonic's. Lastly, Ms. Pac Man would be awesome.

Since Bayonetta is mine main next to Robin, one Echo Fighter I'm hoping for is Jeanne. Just like in their games, Jeanne's Witch Time would require more precise input, but would be more powerful than Bayonetta's.

With Ashley out of the picture, I'm hoping Young Cricket makes it in as an Echo Fighter of Lucario. Once again, he could be just like Lucario, sans the aura gimmick. I said this when I voted for him during the Smash Ballot. That said, hopefully Sakurai saw it.

 

[PeridotGX]

Chrom and Richter changed a lot of what we know about Echoes. Octoling got a whole lot more likely now that we know newcomers can get echoes, Dixie and Shadow can work better as Echoes if we swap out moves like with Chrom, and Richard proved that 3rd parties can 100% get echoes. Now I'm waiting for something to open the floodgate of Cross-series echoes.

 

[marmite]

With a subspace emissary type mode looking like think they will use echos now to pad out of the villains for that mode, if that's the case Akuma would be more likely than Ken

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

My personal pics for echoes now would be Impa, Ninten, Shadow and Ken. My only concern with Impa though, is now that the Moon from Majora's Mask is an assist trophy is that paving the way for Skull Kid? I like the Octolings too but I wouldn't want them to upstage the Inklings.