Ducktales Mafia - Game over

[#HBC | ѕoup]

o__________o

then comment on it.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

oh btw, if it's not Ryker/GLG, then who is it?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 7 (5 members and 2 guests)
Soupamario*, Gova, PeopleFacePunch, ZacBlock

lmfao

 

[ZacBlock]

i'm typing up a response now. it'll come in parts. your case on glg first.

 

[PeopleFacePunch]

Okay, don't have but about 5 minutes. I'll be back in about an hour. For now, two things.

First, tunneling is ALWAYS a scum tell because the only positive things it can accomplish can be accomplished by pressuring people without failing to give reads and updates on current issues outside of your target.

Second, redirection of pressure? How the **** is that a scum tell? You're telling a townie he can't scum hunt just because he's in the spotlight and that's ********. I'm not making some underhanded attempt to undermine your entire case. I'm questioning your motivation because I don't like it at ****ing all.

Will get to everything else shortly. Probably won't continue the battle of walls with PFP and will break it down to be more manageable.

Tunneling isn't always a scum tell. Tunneling doesn't always mean you refuse to share thoughts on other subjects. Tunneling is focusing on one person more than others because you need reactions from them or believe their scummy.

Redirecting pressure from one person to another without answering the question is a scum tell, yes. You're trying to paint us as scum through calling us out on something you've done as well, even though the two situations are completely different. "How is my defense worse than yours" is not scum-hunting. Thats redirecting pressure from yourself onto the person you're refering to. Redirecting pressure wasn't the right thing for you and Soupa. Make that only whiteknighting.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

oh ok looking forward to it.

btw, if your case consists of parroting your own points and still defending tsn and pfp you're scum okay? okay

 

[ZacBlock]

429:

I suggest you re-read my case on GLG here.

Uh..how can you get rid of people that you can't get a solid read on? how can you convince people you are right if you can't read them? seems sorta weird.



That's fine, it wasn't much to participate in.

These posts are not telling, I agree.

GLG has a good point here at the time, i am honestly not (by these two posts) seeing how GLG is scummy.

This is the first slightly scummy post. Where is the stance on PFP he was explicitly asked for? The strongest thing he said was "i don't understand why you think he's town". He doesn't say "he is scum" or even "i think he is scum". He says "i don't understand why you think he's town". Do you see how weak that is?

seriously guys, where are you getting this scum-read on GLG, i see nothing wrong here.

Nothing really here either, unless you want to consider he isn't being pro-active about anything.

i'm being serious here, you guys are ****ing idiots thinking this dude is scum, i see absolutely nothing wrong with his play.

Not the worst post, but he's still not DOING ANYTHING.

#117 addresses the same point asked of him, he gave his reads.

Quoted from my case:

"Watch how carefully he is treading with this post. Says he thinks PFP is scum, but then steps back and says not enough to push a lynch. Says he doesn't see scumSoup (note he is again saying "not scum" as opposed to "town"), but then qualifies that with a dislike of Soup's 108. This post once again offers no stance at all."

his #192 is even more of a follow-up, he sticks to his guns and votes ZacBlock, and that's the person he got the most interaction with.

where's the contradiction in #192? where's the distance with ryker? me? where is it? all i see is a modest man caught in a web of bull****, and in fact, this re-read makes me want to think my bs reads over again, this man is innocent.

192 is terrible, and is only redeeming in that he finally does something. The content is garbage though. Read my 351 again please -_-

The contradiction lies here:

I really, really, really don't like your vote on Ryker

Granted you do have other posts that are incriminating towards ryker

Do you see it?

How can you not see the distance from Ryker? He says barely anything about Ryker in this post -_- Why does he acknowledge that there are posts incriminating Ryker, yet the only thing he has to say about him is on the attacks ON him. If he sees that Ryker has made bad posts, why does he not bring them up?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

This is the first slightly scummy post. Where is the stance on PFP he was explicitly asked for? The strongest thing he said was "i don't understand why you think he's town". He doesn't say "he is scum" or even "i think he is scum". He says "i don't understand why you think he's town". Do you see how weak that is?

no, he saying "why do you think he's town? i don't think he is town."

seriously guys, where are you getting this scum-read on GLG, i see nothing wrong here.

Nothing really here either, unless you want to consider he isn't being pro-active about anything.

why is he not being pro-active? he's not being full-blown about everything but he is giving out his thoughts, i don't see this."

i'm being serious here, you guys are ****ing idiots thinking this dude is scum, i see absolutely nothing wrong with his play.

Not the worst post, but he's still not DOING ANYTHING.

YES HE IS. WHY IS HE NOT DOING ANYTHING.

Quoted from my case:

"Watch how carefully he is treading with this post. Says he thinks PFP is scum, but then steps back and says not enough to push a lynch. Says he doesn't see scumSoup (note he is again saying "not scum" as opposed to "town"), but then qualifies that with a dislike of Soup's 108. This post once again offers no stance at all."

well, yeah, why would he push a lynch he's not certain of? how certain are you of GLG?

he disliked it, that's a stance, is it not?

I really, really, really don't like your vote on Ryker

Granted you do have other posts that are incriminating towards ryker

Do you see it?

How can you not see the distance from Ryker? He says barely anything about Ryker in this post -_- Why does he acknowledge that there are posts incriminating Ryker, yet the only thing he has to say about him is on the attacks ON him. If he sees that Ryker has made bad posts, why does he not bring them up?

He said he liked ryker.
so? you hardly say anything about TSN or PFP.

same goes for you with Ryker! you only commented on the attack TSN gave and then back-lashed when ryker fought back!

i'll cut it simple - if GLG flips scum, i will stop, if you can somehwat convince that GLG is scum, all 3 of you will be scot-free, if you can't, i'll be gunning for you tommorow.

 

[ZacBlock]

what is this crap you're preaching? Ryker did the exact same thing as me, but i'm overly aggressive and fake? sounds like you're playing favorites.

You did not do the exact same thing. You used words like "****ing stupid" and kept talking about how angry PFP was making you -_-

Okay, so in 3 posts, ZB likes Ryker, Hates me, Likes PFP.

the **** is wrong here? he likes ryker for getting out of RVS (need to mention the fact his reason for getting out of RVS is that of dislike of PFP) but hates me for not liking PFP either? i don't understand, what made ryker more believable then me? why do you like ryker but also like PFP if you agree what ryker did was good?

Please stop misrepresenting my stances.

I liked Ryker for taking the initiative to move us out of RVS. You did not take that initiative - you followed Ryker's initiative. It's not about Ryker being more believable or w/e. It's completely possible to like someone's push on someone, even if you think the target is town, especially if the motivation behind the push is to move out of RVS. And for the record, PFP was only slightly leaning town at that point - there was nothing to create a town read out of -_-

thinking about what GLG has done, i disagree, GLG has just been backing up what he has been saying and also responding to questions, if i look at this while looking at GLG, i'd say it's a reach to say that he has done nothing but defend himself but also a defense of PFP.

Do you... actually read what GLG posts?

you liked ryker before, what made his attack on TSN different?

Umm....because it's different? lol

I thought his push on TSN felt like scum trying to obtain a mislynch. The push on PFP is a player attempting to move out of RVS. They are different. Different actions will change reads.

well ZB, you clearly have not interfered with anything, i now understand the sideline case given to me before, you've played peanut gallery for the longest time but i was too ingorant to defend myself to see it.

once again, you flip sides like that, give explanation to why you consider TSN town on that interaction.

I won't deny that I was sideline-ish up to this point. TSN town was based on a scumRyker read trying to obtain a mislynch. That by definition makes TSN town. Moreover, our thoughts were aligning quite well.

Re-direction.

What? Re-direction implies that there was pressure on me to begin with. I was genuinely curious as to whether I had missed something Ryker brought up against me. I wasn't about to waste time defending myself against an accusation that never happened.

and within minutes (not really), ZB is totally loving Ryker but after attacking TSN it's a whole different story.

y'know, i don't think i've seen ZB ever explain this, curious now.

And it's BECAUSE of the attack on TSN that I started taking issue with Ryker. Why is that so hard to understand? Are we all to stick with our RVS reads?

Huh, by now i'm seeing a total connection to TSN and ZB, who is with me? i feel PFP is odd-man out right now.

Define "connection"? If you mean we think the other hydra is town, then yeah, there's a connection. Nobody needed you to point that out =P

going back to that GLG case.

man, in all these quotes i can't believe i saw this slot as town, they have done nothing, they have their vote on glg who's only problem is in-activity, it's weak.

This is just flat-out untrue. I had more against GLG than inactivity.

LOOK AT THAT TSN LOVE MAN.

I think they're town. I never tried to deny or hide that.

still holding on to that GLG crap, man ZB, this re-read is killing my town-read on you.

I stay on my scumreads unless something/someone can convince me otherwise. No such thing happened. Am I hindering the progress of other discussions by this? Nope... in fact, I'm working to further discussion on other players as well. I don't see how you can find this scummy.

oh hey! i'd also like to mention this:



look at this ****, all 3 of their votes pertain to that **** that happened in RVS.

I don't understand the significance

look at this one-side BS, "i'll sit back and let my scum-bud make the jump."

I didn't want to derail the conversation, because I felt it might lead to a strong tell on either TSN or Ryker. It did.

why do you keep adding GLG to everything you say? seriously, you haven't been off that dude's **** the whole freaking game, and i'm being serious here, your whole play now is looking fake, setting it up to where you can connect Ryker and GLG then knock it all down.

From above:

"I stay on my scumreads unless something/someone can convince me otherwise. No such thing happened. Am I hindering the progress of other discussions by this? Nope... in fact, I'm working to further discussion on other players as well. I don't see how you can find this scummy."

Moreover, GLG was my top scumpick, so naturally I would ask other players what they thought of him. This forges connections we can look back on later. If we were to lynch GLG and he were to flip scum, we would be able to see who defended him, who attacked him, who ignored questions about him, etc. etc.

STILL STAYING ON THE ****ING DEAD HORSE.

DO SOMETHING ELSE, YOU HAVEN'T COMMENTED ANYTHING BAD ABOUT TSN, PFP, OR YOURSELF.

LOL I am laughing so hard right now.

I had made it clear by that point that I had a town read on TSN. My read on PFP was explicitly stated too. Why do I have to say bad things about people? More importantly, why do I have to say bad things about myself?

This is seriously the worst case, and I can't believe I just wasted so much time responding to it. You selectively choose posts to pick apart, and then make blanket statements like "he hasn't done anything". And even the stuff you quote is misrepresented or twisted half the time. Honestly... that was pathetic. I think you should take some time to cool off and do a re-read when you can actually think clearly.

 

[Asid Wash]

oh gog 3 new ****ing pages are you *******s serious ughughughughughghugh

 

[ZacBlock]

well, yeah, why would he push a lynch he's not certain of? how certain are you of GLG?

As sure as I can be at the end of D1.

he disliked it, that's a stance, is it not?

Sure, but a weak one. When people start flipping, we are going to be looking back at people's stances in earlier Days. If we ever get to make the point "X flipped scum, and GLG had him as town, therefore ______", GLG is going to be able to say "well i thought he might be town but i thought he might be scum as well" and we're not going to be able to pull up a post to contradict that. Like... do you even understand how to play this game?

He said he liked ryker.
so? you hardly say anything about TSN or PFP.

Did he really say he liked Ryker? Not really. He said the attacks made him think he was town ._.

I have offered my stances on TSN and PFP, and I have backed them up. GLG has stupid reasoning, or no reasoning at all.

same goes for you with Ryker! you only commented on the attack TSN gave and then back-lashed when ryker fought back!

i'll cut it simple - if GLG flips scum, i will stop, if you can somehwat convince that GLG is scum, all 3 of you will be scot-free, if you can't, i'll be gunning for you tommorow.

Haha that's fine. If your last few posts are any indication, there's really nothing for me to worry about. Plus, GLG will very likely flip scum =)

 

[ZacBlock]

Gonna respond to Ryker when I get home. I'm done with you Soup - until you can come up with something substantial I'm not even going to reply. It's a waste of my time.

 

[Asid Wash]

@AW: If you were a vig and wanted to kill a player toNight based on scuminess and a different based on someone you think would hinder town/was deadweight, who would you pick for each category? In your eyes, would a scumGLG ensure a scumRyker one?

Providing GLG is the flip today, I can't see a player that is ultimately dead weight at the moment. Everyone else is putting stances out there and doing things--to an extent--so no person should technically fall under that category. Even Soup finally wised up and did ****, even if his justification for his pisspoor play is the same quality. I can't say I'd shoot anyone at this point as a sort of "policy shot." In terms of scumminess? Depends on GLG's flip. If he flips scum, Broto is the first shot. If he flips town, I'm shooting TSN or PFP.

 

[Asid Wash]

unvote

Just so he doesn't self-hammer. Consider my vote still on him.

There. Is. A. Day. To. Deadline. Him. Self. Hammering. Is. Not. An. Issue.

 

[Asid Wash]

GLG lynch is stupid.

putting that out there, why lynch something that isn't there, worry about what he does tommorow if you're concerned, people have null reads up the wazoo with GLG, don't waste a lynch on a null.

Because it's better to get rid of him now than in LyLo.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

let's lynch GLG, i don't care anymore, if he flips scum, hurray, if town, i'll deal with it tommorow.

good night, i don't feel like going walls and walls of nothing.

 

[ZacBlock]

There. Is. A. Day. To. Deadline. Him. Self. Hammering. Is. Not. An. Issue.

It's not only about ending the day early. He could do it so that a scummate doesn't fall under suspicion for not voting him, or to cast suspicion on a townie who did not place his vote, etc.

Meh... can't hurt right? I'll definitely be around tomorrow before the deadline.

 

[PeopleFacePunch]

It's not weak at all.

No it's not, where the **** you getting this.

he's commited enough.

His most recent post is the best example of his weak, wishy-washy stances.

Alright, I'm here. Anyway I don't really have many questions to ask but I do have reads on several players so I'll go ahead and give you guys the reads so you can be happy.

In order of the player list:
1. Acid Dough (Asdioh / WashedLaundry)- Not really a fan of these two. They come in here mildly and are delayed in making their first post and suddenly go in guns blazing and vote soup for saying you don't always have to be doing something even though they themselves didn't actually do anything at that point in time either which makes no sense to me. I'm probably just making a huge deal out of nothing since I'm sure as you guys get more active you will do work but I just found that interesting.

2. giraffelasergun- *insert comment about how this is myself*

3. Chaco Who?

4. ZacBlock (T-Block / UTDZac) Something about your guys playstyle doesn't strike a good tone to me. I get the feeling that you guys ask questions not becuase you think the person you're asking them is a wolf, but you ask them so that you appear to be scumhunting while making the other people look worse. Can you guys give me a quick summary as to why you're voting me again?

5. Ryker You have several people attacking you for dumb reasons which makes me want to think you're town.

6. DatHydra (Seikend / t3hkuzinator) I'll have to see more of these two to actually decide anything on them.
7. PeopleFacePunch (Joey / Sworddancer) During RVS I thought you guys were stupid and or scum and should go immediately but you've been looking better since, although I do think you guys were a tad over defensive. You aren't my top pick for today.
8. ~The Savage Nymph~ (Gova / J) I really, really, really don't like your vote on Ryker. From what I've read, you guys are the only ones that feel the way you do about ZacBlock and you just call him out for lying. Granted you do have other posts that are incriminating towards ryker, but the vote post itself was what i found worse.

9. Soupamario I think soup's town.

Brief version:

Chaco, DH, and Asid Wash are null.
Soup and Ryker town. PFP might be town.
I feel like TSN and ZacBlock are probably scum, but the way they interact with each other I don't think they'd be on the same scum team. However, imo they are the two scummiest players right now.

Going with Vote: ZacBlock.

Look at AW, me and TSN accusations. All very wishy-washy "I don't like this about this person but eh" posts. Before this he accused me but didn't pursue it. Also weak. The only strong stance is against ZB.

Btw I just checked GLG's profile and he was logged in yesturDay.

@Mod: Has GLG been prodded?

@Mod: How many hours is deadline away from now (since Gheb might be using a different time zone for this besides EST).

 

[Asid Wash]

well, bunch of new posts since i went to work, so i'm going to skim them, aka not read them gg

EBWOP: i've never played JoAT, i just assumed that was the standard for JoAT.

It is, but there's no need to say exactly what you have yet.
Though, I am extremely wary of there being a JoaT in a 9 man game, especially if there happens to be a cop and/or doc. Note that they shouldn't claim, obviously.

Request Replacement

what the hell

PFP/ZB/TSN <- scum discuss

no



now lynch GLG ok

 

[ZacBlock]

Misrepresentation of TSN:

You apply an end goal to the push as if it is fact and not an assumption. Not when my vote was on him, but shortly after, yes, I would've lynched TSN if nothing else came up. I still maintain that his assault on Soup was scummy. The TvS thing was just a pushing point because the tell is very slight, but it provided a springboard to move forward. I moved off of TSN later in the phase. I was willing to go where I would find scum. V/LA stopped me from being able to generate the content I needed to show that. I will fight you on the fact that what I brought up was indeed scum tells and we can argue that to hell and back tomorrow, but I don't even have the time for it today. If you think that me saying they were scum tells is a scum tell, then I'll try and address it.

"only now acknowledges that his point was weak, saying it was "hella easily dealt with", but now attacks TSN for never defending it well, despite several defenses from TSN; what was he expecting?"

And saying that back at the beginning when actually pushing him would've accomplished what exactly?

Are you trying to say that the entire push was made with intention of seeing TSN's reaction? I won't buy it... it seemed pretty clear to me that you had every intention of seeing that through to a lynch. I'll go back and find examples if that's what you're actually saying.

Defense of the case against him:

Look at his points. He's saying that something is something when it isn't. I answer with questions to make him look at his **** and to get the information because I don't like him.

Yes, it is a redirection onto PFP. As addressed earlier, why is it a scum tell to provide other avenues for discussion besides yourself. Would you consider it a scum tell if I had 2 votes, GLG had 4, and it was still 48 hours from deadline? If so, how does the change in situation justify the change in read?

Fair enough on the first paragraph. As I said, it's a weaker point because the original case was indeed flawed. However, I do consider defense via counter offense somewhat of a scumtell. I would much rather see defense and attacking questions in separate posts. At least then it's clear that you have no intention of hiding behind your questions to defend yourself.

I don't consider the redirection in itself a scumtell. Providing and pursuing other avenues of discussion is perfectly fine as long as you aren't using it to get away with ignoring the points brought up against you. In this case, it's scummy because it comes in the middle of your defense post. The line sticks out every time I re-read your 303. It's not a defense - it's an attempt to divert the pressure onto your attacker.

Inconsistency in dealing with noncommittal players:

Didn't care about GLG then. Pushing him wasn't going to get me anywhere I wanted to be at the start of the day. I wanted to be getting stances from players on players that will actually reveal things. Do you think that if I backed the GLG case we would've gotten anything more than "Yeah I think he's scum," coupled with one or two, "But he's GLG and he may flip town."

I think that's a BS justification. You call one player out for not giving reads, and then watch as another player does just that, except worse, and you ignore it because you think that pressuring the player won't reveal anything? Shouldn't you be making them talk and reveal things instead? What made you think that pressuring me would give any more information than pressuring him then? He was actually posting at that time - it wasn't obvious he was going to be inactive.

Am I missing some GLG meta here? Fill me in if I am.

Interactions with GLG:

Gave you the read when you asked for it. Didn't really care to push him at that time. What would you have had me do?

Don't care about the parroting comment. I wanted to see how people would react. Do you think it's a large scum tell?

See above. I realize you didn't really care to push him. I want to know WHY you didn't care to push him.

Yes, I think the parroting comment is a scum tell. You said that people can live a long time by parroting you. This is encouraging parroting, and would town really be better off if we encourage parroting? Furthermore, it shows desire to manipulate other players ("agree with me and I won't target you"), which isn't always a scummy thing to do I suppose, but it should certainly set off flags.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Deadline is in 12 hours and 45 minutes. Looking at prodding glg now. Votecount coming in just a minute.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

glg has been prodded.

giraffelasergun [3] - DatHydra, Ryker, Asid Wash
Ryker [2] - PeopleFacePunch, Classy Raptor,
Soupamario [1] - ~The Savage Nynph~
ZacBlock [2] - giraffelasergun, Soupamario
DatHydra [1] - MOD

Not voting: ZacBlock

Takes 5/9 to lynch - Deadline: Wednesday, June 29th

 

[ZacBlock]

meh okay

vote: giraffelasergun

Claim when you get here.

 

[ZacBlock]

@mod: The typo in TSN's name in the votecount is bothering me =x

Reads (null reads moved to leaning one way, no matter how slight)

Scum: GLG, Ryker
Leaning scum: AW, CR
Leaning town: PFP
Town: TSN, DH, Soup

Things could change quite a bit depending on flips though. scumRyker suggests scumAW, and would drop DH to null. townRyker would drop TSN to null.

Fairly confident in my townSoup read after yesterday. Are people still skeptical? We should decide whether to direct a vig shot soon if so.

 

[ZacBlock]

Deadline in four hours from this post fyi

 

[DatHydra]

Was just about to say to make sure someone hammered before deadline, but ZBlock already on that ****.

 

[ZacBlock]

I doubt GLG will be on to claim. Totally fine with a hammer whenever.

More thoughts in the meantime:

DH, did you ever get to my 360? =)

Also, DH-Soup interaction is very very strange. DH, is there a specific point in time where Soup switched from a scum read to a town read for you?

TSN has been coasting for the past 200 posts. Not too sure I like them anymore actually... gonna drop them from Town to Leaning Town.

PFP hasn't done much lately either.

 

[DatHydra]

I pretty much flipped my read due to his claim and his play afterwards.

Liked his 361 and 368. 361 because his answer seemed innocent and he actually decided to contribute content despite saying he would replace out. 368 because townSoup is hella naive and wouldn't have just outed his powers if he was a scumJoaT or he was fake claiming JoaT. His partner would have prepped him way in advance not to do anything stupid and he also would have put much more thought into that post before just blurting it out.

His push on you after I told him to stay in the game looks genuine, though misguided imo. I think being told he was being stupid just discouraged him from wanting to play which prompted the replacement and also looks fine in my eyes. Showed initiative to scumhunt and build a case (when it was clear he wasn't going to be the lynch for the day; a proactive soup is a town soup) on his scumpicks instead of just giving the slot away to a replacement.

Multitasking. Will definitely respond to the Ryker case before the end of twi.

 

[PeopleFacePunch]

PFP hasn't done much lately either.

What do you call the whole thing with Ryker and Soup? Sure, it's not as much as you maybe, but I wouldn't say we haven't done much as of late.

Will hammer GLG an hour before deadline if no one has any objections.

 

[ZacBlock]

Yeah one hour before deadline sounds fine.

Things have been pretty reactive from you since post 200-ish apart from your thing with Ryker. According to my notes, any major interaction has been almost exclusively with Ryker and Soup, and even then, the later posts towards Soup were mostly correcting him on his impressions of GLG. Other than that, you mention a town read on me and on AW, and that's about it? It probably sounded like more of a callout than I intended it to be, but I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on TSN/CR/DH before the flip.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Deadline in exactly 2 hours.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

if he's seriously not showing up someone can just hammer him >_>

 

[ZacBlock]

What's the rush? PFP said he'd do it an hour before.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

oh, i can wait, i just wanna see the flip.

 

[PeopleFacePunch]

*twiddles thumbs*

this feels trivial, but 20 minutes.

 

[DatHydra]

Thought I was going to have time to write this but I only have a short amount of time because I am helping my parents move into another house so I need to do this quick.

Ryker:

Misrepresentation of TSN:

• 95 - first point against TSN; implies TSN is pushing Soup only for his case on PFP and wonders why he doesn't push Ryker as well

• TSN says several times (eg - 96, 116) that he is not pushing Soup only for the PFP case
• 131 - once again attacks TSN for treating the same tell differently; implies TSN is acting only on the tell of the push on PFP
• 303 - still insisting TSN's logic is flawed
• 353 - only now acknowledges that his point was weak, saying it was "hella easily dealt with", but now attacks TSN for never defending it well, despite several defenses from TSN; what was he expecting?

As has been noted by multiple players, the push on TSN is full of holes. He misrepresents TSN's actions more than once, and tries to paint him as scum for it. Moreover, this is clearly not a push to gauge a reaction from TSN. He wants TSN mislynched.

Agreed 95 is scummy. Dislike. However I dislike it for different reasons, more that he is trying to pin TNS for attacking the weaker player which is underhanded.

Most of the other points you bring up in this section hinge on TNS's logic being spot on, which it wasn't. I see where you're drawing the connections from starting in 95, but 95 was the scummiest post out of the lot for other reasons.

Defense of the cases against him:

His treatment of PFP's case also deserves mention. While I agree the original case is not presented strongly, I find the defense odd.

Look at the way he addresses individual points in 303 and 353. Much of the defense is just firing questions back at PFP ("do you consider this a scum tell?", "where do you go from here?", etc.). In some cases, I can see these are rhetorical questions made to make a point. In others, however, he is simply avoiding defending himself, asking PFP to elaborate on his points, as if hoping he will botch the continuation so that he can attack that and undermine the case that way.

The way he defends himself is a smaller point overall, but it deserves its own section because of this quote in 303.

I see the deflection you're talking about and agreed it does bother me. Specifically the first two quotes he responded to. The rest of it looks more natural.

In the middle of his defense against PFP, he comes out with these questions. These aren't even addressing the case on him anymore - it's a redirection back onto PFP, questioning PFP's vote placement. Pretty reaching defense imo.

This is a good catch relating back to the GLG connection. His mentioning of GLG seems very forced here.

===============

Inconsistency in dealing with "non-commital" players:

• 102 - jumps on me for sidelining
• 112 - accuses me of not giving reads
• 117 - GLG comes in with a post where he is completely wishy-washy with stances on PFP and Soup; no solid reads given here
• 131 - again accuses me of dodging giving reads
• 133 - says GLG is leaning scum; no mention of GLG being non-commital

Yeah, this is a little ridiculous. He accuses me several times of being non-commital and dodging giving reads, yet GLG is around, actually dodging giving reads and Ryker takes no note of it. Take special note of 117. GLG says PFP is scum, but then steps back and says he would not push their lynch. GLG says Soup is not full scum, and then says he doesn't like one of his posts. This is basically the definition of read dodging. What is Ryker's response? "I like this post".

When asked specifically about GLG, he says in 133 that he is leaning scum. No reasoning provided, no mention of read dodging whatsoever. Moreover, he is called out specifically for this in 145, which he ignores.

This is more of an incriminating GLG point than a Ryker one. He's accusing you of sidelining yet letting GLG go scot free. GLG deserves pressure for doing it alone but I do remember someone saying that if Ryker was town he would have pushed GLG harder, earlier. So I somewhat see your logic.

Interaction with GLG:

• 133 - says GLG is leaning scum, but no reasoning given, no mention of his read dodging
• 135 - likes GLG's post where he is soft on his stances, despite making it clear he considered dodging giving reads a scum tell
• 145 - I ask him specifically why he is not on GLG's case for dodging giving reads; he ignores this despite making posts soon after
• 307 - says GLG might be scum
• 312 - says he did not care much about GLG; lurker, but okay because he was parroting Ryker
• 328 - votes GLG, with no reasoning given; occurs after Soup's claim

Now, specifically dealing with GLG, if we assume GLG is scum (putting this out there now in case I get NK'd toNight and can't present this point toMorrow), this is why Ryker is also likely scum. He has been treating GLG differently from any other player. Dodging giving reads is acceptable for GLG for some reason. Compare the way he treats me and the way he treats GLG and it should be obvious. The reasoning he gives, much later, is that he is fine with GLG because he is parroting Ryker. This contradicts his distaste for not giving reads. Parroting allows a player to get by without producing any original content. It's a way of blending in, so why would Ryker be okay with it here? The parroting point feels more like Ryker not being able to find a way to defend his prior interaction with GLG. Ryker also straight up ignores the specific call out with regard to his behaviour towards GLG. He reads and posts after my 145, but does not address it.

Also, from GLG's side, he has not mentioned Ryker at ALL except for 192, where he contradicts himself all over the place with regard to Ryker. He first says the attacks on Ryker make him think he's town, but there is no mention of any of Ryker's own actions. The implied read is null with the attacks on Ryker making him lean town. The lack of opinion on Ryker is telling in itself. Then when he gets to TSN, he acknowledges that TSN has made posts that incriminate Ryker, yet he does not like the vote on Ryker. He makes no mention of these posts in his paragraph on Ryker.

Like all of this and its actually pretty convincing when you view each quote in context. I might need to re-think my read of Ryker toNight upon a GLG scum flip.



So much more ****ing rushed than I wanted that to be but I am literally running out the door right now with my parents yelling downstairs.


blargggg

 

[PeopleFacePunch]

Okay time's up lets do this.

unvote vote GLG

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Are you trying to say that the entire push was made with intention of seeing TSN's reaction? I won't buy it... it seemed pretty clear to me that you had every intention of seeing that through to a lynch. I'll go back and find examples if that's what you're actually saying.

No. Nine times out of ten, when my vote is somewhere I'm willing to lynch a player unless new information comes up, so, yes, I would have lynched him had nothing else come up. Thing is, other things did come up. I did move. I would've done more, but V/LA cut my time in more than half.

Fair enough on the first paragraph. As I said, it's a weaker point because the original case was indeed flawed. However, I do consider defense via counter offense somewhat of a scumtell. I would much rather see defense and attacking questions in separate posts. At least then it's clear that you have no intention of hiding behind your questions to defend yourself.

So it's aesthetics?

I don't consider the redirection in itself a scumtell. Providing and pursuing other avenues of discussion is perfectly fine as long as you aren't using it to get away with ignoring the points brought up against you. In this case, it's scummy because it comes in the middle of your defense post. The line sticks out every time I re-read your 303. It's not a defense - it's an attempt to divert the pressure onto your attacker.

Yes, because I think PFP is scum and that his case is balls. That is why it diverts pressure onto my attacker. I'm not ignoring his points at all. I spent most of the post debunking them.

I think that's a BS justification. You call one player out for not giving reads, and then watch as another player does just that, except worse, and you ignore it because you think that pressuring the player won't reveal anything? Shouldn't you be making them talk and reveal things instead? What made you think that pressuring me would give any more information than pressuring him then? He was actually posting at that time - it wasn't obvious he was going to be inactive.

Am I missing some GLG meta here? Fill me in if I am.

GLG lurks and always reads scum. Pressuring him, regardless of alignment was going to end with a scum read on a lurker whereas pressuring someone else leads to a lot more information.

Isn't this eerily similar to the **** everyone is jumping onto me about for calling out TSN for unequal treatment of players?

Yes, I think the parroting comment is a scum tell. You said that people can live a long time by parroting you. This is encouraging parroting, and would town really be better off if we encourage parroting? Furthermore, it shows desire to manipulate other players ("agree with me and I won't target you"), which isn't always a scummy thing to do I suppose, but it should certainly set off flags.

Well, I disagree. If everyone votes where I vote, then I win the game. Simple as that. Works regardless of alignment.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Oh thank god. Maybe now I'll have time to do something other than sit on my *** and try not to be mislynched.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

wait, ryker, you agree that PFP is scum?

...do you also agree on TSN and ZB?