Dual Stick Mechanics and how it affects Grab Breaking, Momentum Cancelling, and SDI

[Ghostbone]

Platform cancelling can be done in lots of ways.
Basically pressing down on the control stick as you're going above a platform is the simplest way, down on the c-stick also works as c-stick is just direction+a, but there are a few characters you don't want to use the c-stick for. (Pikachu comes to mind as his dair doesn't auto-cancel on the first frame)

If you hold down and press A as you're going through it also works, same with holding down and pressing c-stick in any direction.
If you hold down and press B as you're going through you'll platform cancel, but the b move may come out anyway. (for example if diddy platform cancels in this way he'll platform cancel and down-b instantly)

I'm not sure if you can hold down and press shield to platform cancel, someone else should confirm that.

Platform cancelling can be done on any moving platform, the most obvious examples are Smashville and Lylat. Smashville's platform is pretty much always moving, and Lylat's platforms while they may not look like they're moving, are always considered moving excluding when the ship is travelling between different areas or backgrounds. It's interesting to note that character's with multiple double jumps can't platform cancel during a double jump.

The timing is hard to get down at first but after practising it lots it should become clearer.

 

[Isatis]

My next and final video will likely be all about Platform Canceling

 

[-LzR-]

Poor Jigglypuff can't really platformcancel...
She has multiple jumps and her jump is way too low to reach any platform

 

[C.J.]

She can on YI:B!

Under very specific circumstances.

 

[Jdietz43]

why did you change your message to no longer ask about how to platform cancel? others such as myself would also like to know this as well. could someone at least direct us to the correct thread for this?

Because I answered my own question within a few minutes and decided to be a shyguy lol.


No matter, I've already got some more questions:

Depending on spacing, I'll either use the single SDI input method via holding forward and up on cstick while in shield to guarantee a grab coming out.
If I'm spaced to where I feel I need more than one SDI input, I'll tap forward and tap up on cstick.
Certain IC specific situations, as a safety precaution I'll hold forward on control stick and tap cstick back for conditioning if they don't hit my shield, a grab if they do.

Can you explain what the difference would be between holding and tapping the control stick in these situations?

Also, does it matter at all which option you choose to direct your DSSDI in a particular direction, or are both ways of creating the same angle for the total SDI direction absolutely the same and up to preference. (in other words, if I were to hold my control stick up and tap my c-stick right would it be completely identical to reversing the positions or would there be some minor differences based on which direction you chose for each. My current understanding says they should be at least mostly the same, but if the C-stick is ~.72 of a control stick I'd like to be sure before I dismiss it)

And finally, I'd also like to be clear on the best method for grab breaking like some of the others have asked. Is it enough for us to hold one direction on the control stick and tap a different direction on the C-stick, or is it possible/recommended to sneak in extra inputs by mashing other buttons at the same time? Finally based on the video, for the purposes of grab breaking it sounds like holding the C-stick and control stick in opposite directions will yield the most total inputs for our trouble and is therefore what we should be aiming for, is that true? (Is it worth my time to Kprime, or should I just focus on fast C-stick taps?)

 

[DeLux]

Can you explain what the difference would be between holding and tapping the control stick in these situations?

Holding is the state of having the analog stick maintain it's current position (most of the time it's full throw aka the analog stick maintaining position along the outer rim)

Tapping is having the analog stick go from neutral to full throw in its range of motion.

Also, does it matter at all which option you choose to direct your DSSDI in a particular direction, or are both ways of creating the same angle for the total SDI direction absolutely the same and up to preference. (in other words, if I were to hold my control stick up and tap my c-stick right would it be completely identical to reversing the positions or would there be some minor differences based on which direction you chose for each. My current understanding says they should be at least mostly the same, but if the C-stick is ~.72 of a control stick I'd like to be sure before I dismiss it)

There would be some minor difference in that the Cstick is slightly less distance in input than the analog stick snap back input, but in my experience this difference is pretty negligible. I focus more on holding the analog stick the correct direction I want to Trajectory DI while tapping the cstick accordingly to DSDI.

And finally, I'd also like to be clear on the best method for grab breaking like some of the others have asked. Is it enough for us to hold one direction on the control stick and tap a different direction on the C-stick, or is it possible/recommended to sneak in extra inputs by mashing other buttons at the same time? Finally based on the video, for the purposes of grab breaking it sounds like holding the C-stick and control stick in opposite directions will yield the most total inputs for our trouble and is therefore what we should be aiming for, is that true? (Is it worth my time to Kprime, or should I just focus on fast C-stick taps?)

The Cstick must pass through neutral before a new input can be registered, so holding it isn't your best option.

That being said, I firmly believe the Cstick would be the most important thing to focus on during grab breaking, as each input would potentially give you 3/4ths of the max possible inputs assuming frame perfect scenarios. The rest of the buttons you can add in however method you please, but each button would count for one input while each cstick counts for 3.

 

[Jdietz43]

Holding is the state of having the analog stick maintain it's current position (most of the time it's full throw aka the analog stick maintaining position along the outer rim)

Tapping is having the analog stick go from neutral to full throw in its range of motion.

I meant what would the difference in result be in tapping vs holding in the SDI situation you were previously talking about. I was wondering what the DI difference would be in each situation. I'm well aware of what each of those terms means in of itself.

(and yes, I wouldn't have actually held down the C-stick, that was just how I worded asking if it was most beneficial to be tapping the C-stick in the opposite direction of the control stick (which would be held down) for grab breaking)


Thanks for replying.

 

[Jdietz43]

*cough*

Anyone still there?

I'm still wondering what the difference is in SDI when tapping vs holding in the scenario DeLux was talking about before:

Depending on spacing, I'll either use the single SDI input method via holding forward and up on cstick while in shield to guarantee a grab coming out.
If I'm spaced to where I feel I need more than one SDI input, I'll tap forward and tap up on cstick.

 

[DeLux]

Totally slipped my mind >_> my bad

busy tonight and tomorrow with a tourney, but I'll give you a better explanation when I can sit down and give you a good answer

 

[Luco]

Darn, that last one is much harder for me because I use wiichuk. Dual sticking....

 

[Sol9000]

What does HCDI, QCDI, and SDI stand for?

 

[Yikarur]

Darn, that last one is much harder for me because I use wiichuk. Dual sticking....

you can easily use the dpad set to smash to use the same stuff easily.

HC = half circle
QC = quarter circle
SDI = Smash Directional Influence (or Smash DI)

explanation of common terminology:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=302576

 

[Sol9000]

you can easily use the dpad set to smash to use the same stuff easily.

HC = half circle
QC = quarter circle
SDI = Smash Directional Influence (or Smash DI)

explanation of common terminology:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=302576

Thanks, Bro

 

[Luco]

you can easily use the dpad set to smash to use the same stuff easily.

HC = half circle
QC = quarter circle
SDI = Smash Directional Influence (or Smash DI)

explanation of common terminology:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=302576

yeah but then that creates other problems with hard-to-use grabbing and so on, to the point where i'd have to switch all my controls around, which isn't good seeing as i'm so used to the normal ones. I can live with it. S'ok. ^^

 

[Yikarur]

a lot of people use 1 to grab and even then rarely used (Shield + Attack is used more often)
Dpad completly set to smash is just sooo much better :/

 

[Luco]

Kind of, still... :/

 

[DeLux]

*cough*

Anyone still there?

I'm still wondering what the difference is in SDI when tapping vs holding in the scenario DeLux was talking about before:

In the holding scenario, you are given Cstick Input > Analog Input over 2 frames

In the tapping input, you are given Analog > Cstick > Analog over 3 frames

This is why holding horizontal on analog and tapping up on Cstick will always do a grab, but tapping horizontal on analog and tapping up on Cstick will roll without shield hitlag and grab with shield hitlag

 

[Yikarur]

meh I read through this a bit more carefully and I noticed something.

C-Stick SDI is THE SAME as Controlstick SDI. C-Stick doesn't SDI shorter D:
why would that be the case, would make no sense. D:

 

[DeLux]

According to Mags, there was a finite difference in tapping the analog stick full throw and tapping the cstick full throw.

This notion is supported by being able to Shield DI off the stage when the sticks are tapped in opposing directions

 

[Yikarur]

but you aren't able to Shield DI off the stage then both sticks are tapped.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Holding the C-stick in any direction prevents you from tap jumping

 

[Necrotic]

When I was a noob I managed to DI an attack and I managed to fly in a half circle slamming into the ground I still can't figure out how I did it...help?

 

[Ghostbone]

On how c-stick SDI doesn't send you as far, is it possible that a c-stick input doesn't actually input a full control stick input?

 

[Necrotic]

On how c-stick SDI doesn't send you as far, is it possible that a c-stick input doesn't actually input a full control stick input?

I think its because of how the C-stick works. Its just a one frame tap on the analog stick so its not going to give you as much of a boost as on the analog stick where a much longer input would be recieved...thats just my guess.

 

[Joaco]

I tried this today and I was very impressed, I will practice this thing more :B

 

[Necrotic]

During a grab break if you hold up-left on the analog stick and tap down-right on the cstick would that input all four directions plus the attack?

 

[infiniteV115]

The way it works is that the C-stick input overrides the joystick input for one frame. It doesn't input the values in between.

So
Frame 1 = up left
Frame 2 = down right
Frame 3 = up left

It does NOT input (up+left, up, up+right, right, down+right)

Since up+left and down+right cancel out, all you've really done was go up+left once. In terms of grab-breaking, this is fine, because it's still multiple inputs, but in terms of SDI it's impractical.

And I believe with regards to mashing, the diagonal directions still count as 1 input (ie up+left has the same effect on grab-breaking as up does) so you can pretty much use any directional combination when it comes to dual-stick mashing, as long as it's not the same direction on both sticks.

Edit: Oh and yes, the attack value from the C-stick works towards grab-breaking as well.

 

[Necrotic]

Hmmmm I see, thanks for clearing that up. I'm still trying to figure out how this works...damn I thought I had something there lol.

 

[DeLux]

Necrotic, I wrote the guide and since I live like 30 mins away from you, you could come to the smashfest tonight and I could show you in person >_>

 

[Necrotic]

Necrotic, I wrote the guide and since I live like 30 mins away from you, you could come to the smashfest tonight and I could show you in person >_>

Id love to but I have no ride and tonight would be a horrible night to do so. maybe we can set something up. you feel like doing a little traveling?

 

[DeLux]

VM me and we can set something up

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Smash attacks can also be done by using the option select. I think it has something to do with the amount of hitstun an attack gives you and how fast you hit the C-stick

 

[TreK]

Ouch, I use the blue smashboards skin, and the OP hurts my eyes. You might want to consider putting it into a default color.

 

[BlazeTron]

This looks like it can be helpful to me... But its too long for me XD ... Maybe one day..

 

[NoLife]

is this in melee or project m?

 

[Zach777]

Keep in mind that I did not look through earlier posts so I do not know if this has already been discovered.

I think we should call it Dual Input(DISDI) or Two Inputs(TISDI).

I prefer DISDI

It requires Wiimote+Nunchuk.

Have the d-pad set to the smash directions in controls and have shake smash on(you need both).
If you use both the d-pad and the shake smash at the same time, you can get the performance of what two c-sticks would be. Allowing you 50% more SDI.

Might be exaggerating on the percentages, I don't know.

Hope this helps, have never seen anyone using besides myself.