E.G.G.M.A.N.
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2007
- Messages
- 301
I wasn't aware that Toriyama had anything to do with making the movie, as far as I know, it's completely out of his hands now.
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Dragonball: Evolution Trailer (More like Suckolution Failure)
- Thread starter Puddin
- Start date
Aesir
Smash Master
As far as I can remember he was on the production team.
Though I could be wrong I'm going on information that's at least 3 months old.
ExCeL 52
Smash Lord
This is going to be the halt of Dragon Ball Z.
You guys are acting like DBZ was ever good.
I kid, I know DBZ has it's fans ,I was one of them at some point, but I quit watching it during the cell saga. At least this movie will end in a timely fashion.
I kid, I know DBZ has it's fans ,I was one of them at some point, but I quit watching it during the cell saga. At least this movie will end in a timely fashion.
Grey Belnades
The Imperial Aztec
dude this movie is gonna blow, thats not the right way to make a dragonball movie, it has to be drawn not live action.
However, a plot that is only the basic concept with an otherwise complete departure is not a true adaptation. Your comments are pretty inaccurate and are kind of confusing: since when is it okay for a movie to completely screw up the source material? Authors and fans for decades have hated the movies based on their books, comics, etc, because movie makers often take the names of the movies but completely change the plot to grab money.
If you take the time to consider the plot points that have been revealed, it's pretty obvious that this isn't an adaptation, but an attempt to grab money by making a movie with the Dragonball name, adding a few names and plotlines from the source but otherwise making it completely different. This isn't X-Men or Spiderman, where there were liberties taken but the core of the series was preserved and enhanced. Here, it's pretty obvious that it's only Dragonball in name only. And that's why it's going to suck.
It's sort of like how I-Robot was, but I-Robot was at least a full script of another movie, and thus was good on it's own. Here, it's pretty obvious from what I've seen over the past few months that we're looking at a generic action teen hero movie.
Also, Toriyama hasn't been seriously involved in anything related to Dragonball since the Cell Saga, except the online game coming out this year. He was involved in GT, but didn't have any serious say in the plot (which is often considered a reason for why GT was so bad). He hasn't really had control over it, since it was so popular and so under control by executives. I'm pretty sure he doesn't really care about Dragonball anymore, since he kind of resented having to continue the series for so long (the company he made the series for kept getting him to continue it when he wanted to end it).
Really, the only hope I see for this movie is if it's so bad that it turns out to be completely hilarious.
Aesir
Smash Master
Lol money grab? Of course it's a money grab why else would they adapt it into a movie to begin with? It's common sense people.
You should probably look at who's contributing to the movie before you go awall on how this is going to be the worst thing in the world.
For instance two producers stick out the most for me.
Steven Chow and Akira Toriyama. Steven Chow is a very big Dragonball fan, I'm not sure how much involvement he's had but Toriyama did have a meeting with fox executives about the movie.
Also from what I've seen from trailers you guys sound like Negative Nancy's, oh no the story isn't exactly what we want it to be, IT'S BAAAAD!
The basic core of Dragaonball is there. Martial Arts, Dragonballs, and an adversary.
To say Dragonball is anything more then that is silly.
Again drop the "Money Grab" rhetoric, you live in capitalism everything's a money grab.
You should probably look at who's contributing to the movie before you go awall on how this is going to be the worst thing in the world.
For instance two producers stick out the most for me.
Steven Chow and Akira Toriyama. Steven Chow is a very big Dragonball fan, I'm not sure how much involvement he's had but Toriyama did have a meeting with fox executives about the movie.
http://www.majin-planet.com/dragonball/history/akira_toriyama.html
Also from what I've seen from trailers you guys sound like Negative Nancy's, oh no the story isn't exactly what we want it to be, IT'S BAAAAD!
What? You're interpreting the meaning of adaptation very conservatively. All an adaptation is, is taking the core elements of an idea (comic, novel, ect..) and producing a film out of it.
The basic core of Dragaonball is there. Martial Arts, Dragonballs, and an adversary.
To say Dragonball is anything more then that is silly.
Again drop the "Money Grab" rhetoric, you live in capitalism everything's a money grab.
Vorguen
Smash Champion
Aesir, I understand the points you are trying to make but this movie looks terrible in every way. Even superhero movies kept to the original as much as possible, you didn't see Superman or Spiderman being much different than they were supposed to be. But still, with what they are doing to this movie it looks from either perspective terrible.
For true Dragonball fans like myself, it's death. They killed way too many things from Dragonball.
For non-Dragonball fans, it looks cheesy, lame, and childish.
For true Dragonball fans like myself, it's death. They killed way too many things from Dragonball.
For non-Dragonball fans, it looks cheesy, lame, and childish.
Aesir
Smash Master
In response to the Superman/Spiderman charge, those stories take place well within the grasp of reality. (granted a super hero existing is unrealistic, however they exist in a realistic world.) Dragonball on the other hand is completely 100% unrealistic. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges.
Changes were going to be made because if they kept everything the same then it sure as hell wouldn't sell at all.
And no it doesn't look terrible in every way, you people should really do research like seriously.
I'm willing to bet the martial arts scenes are going to be great why do I say this? look who's involved. First off Steven Chow for those of you who are unfamiliar with him, He directed Kung Fu hustle look it up and go for the sub because dubs are lame.
Also they're pulling a lot of big name companies in on this which indicates it's not being half *****.
All I really see are people upset because the producers went liberal on the concept.
Dragonball is cheesy, lame and childish LOL wtf?
Vorguen
Smash Champion
I meant the movie looks cheesy.
Aesir
Smash Master
I know what you meant, but the thing is Dragonball is cheesy so whats the point of pointing out the movie being cheesy? Especially when the Anime its self was very cheesy.
Geist
Smash Master
Dragonball has always been cheezy, that's what made it so awesome.
The movie looks like it is almost a cheezy parody of that cheeziness.
I just hope that there isn't as much just floating there and waiting and talking/eyeing eachother for a day before they fight.*cough*
Nice sig Aesir. ^^
The movie looks like it is almost a cheezy parody of that cheeziness.
I just hope that there isn't as much just floating there and waiting and talking/eyeing eachother for a day before they fight.*cough*
Nice sig Aesir. ^^
Producing and Directing are two VERY different things.
"The basic core of Dragaonball is there. Martial Arts, Dragonballs, and an adversary. "
Okay yes sure, let's just take the core factors of the series and throw it into some action pumped Hollywood blockbuster and see how much money we can make off of the Non-Fans. Adversary? Every movie has an adversary, it's the villain and it's essential to every plot saying that is just a dead give-away, EVERY movie requires some kind of villain.
It's not an adaptation if they just take the bare-naked elements of the show and staple the characters names onto it.
Aesir
Smash Master
^ thats an adaptation though. lol
All this movie is is an alternate telling of dragonball, hence why they tacked on the name evolution.
All this movie is is an alternate telling of dragonball, hence why they tacked on the name evolution.
Vorguen
Smash Champion
The name of evolution was tacked on their to remind us of Pokemon, which is still not as cheesy as what this movie is going to turn out to be.
and Puddin, yes. Agreed. But we are all biased aren't we? lol
and Puddin, yes. Agreed. But we are all biased aren't we? lol
E.G.G.M.A.N.
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2007
- Messages
- 301
They'll probably make a live action Pokemon next. With lots of CG.
Vorguen
Smash Champion
True. But with blood and gore! Why not? It's how it would happen in real life.
E.G.G.M.A.N.
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2007
- Messages
- 301
Do you really want to see live action Jynx? REALLY? Oh, and Pikachu will probably look like some kind of fat weasel or something because it's more realistic, and Mewtwo will be James Marsters with lots of face paint.
It sounds less like you have a loose idea of what an adaptation is and more like you have a lack of respect for the source. The main reason you think that criticizing the movie isn't worthwhile is because you don't think Dragonball is something worth having a valid opinion about.
Which is annoying to anyone who actually enjoys and/or knows a bit behind it, but also means that there's relatively little I can say that can convince you otherwise.
Aesir
Smash Master
What gave you this? because I called it childish, or is it because I acknowledge the fact that it's no great work of manga that you seem to think. For the record I've been a huge dragonball fan since the 90's.
Seriously...
And no I know what an adaptation is, you're just committing yourself to a rigid interpretation. Making a movie 100% loyal to the source is how you lose money, what they're doing now is trying to take the core elements and turn it into a profit (which is actually a huge gamble but not nearly as huge as keeping it true to the story would.
Just relax if it ends up sucking you can just say I told you so.
No because I have the ultimate blanket statement..
Movie isn't out yet, so to me it just looks like pessimistic nit picking.
anyway:
Japanese news programs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lwmp1M5TitU
What I quoted from you wasn't you saying it was childish, but you boiling it down to two or three vague concepts.
I never said it was a great work as you seem to think I did, but you seem to think it's not made well enough for people to think criticism of a bad money grab made from it is worth it (what a bad run on sentence...).
Also, it's not an adaptation if it takes the core of the series and warps it to it's own ends. Think of the difference, for example, between Dragonball and Dragonball Z. Dragonball is a homage to an ancient Chinese epic, but it's much less serious, so it's plot is more about adventure than anything, which is why Dragonball was so offbeat. Dragonball Z is more a homage towards Science Fiction and the Superhero genre, and it shows in the plotlines.
This, however, seems like a cheap attempt to make a generic teen hero movie with the Dragonball title to draw in more money. It doesn't really keep the spirit of the (hell, Goku being in high school defies the premise of Dragonball entirely), and nobody's fooled.
Also, it's very possible to make a good adaptation while taking liberties. Look at X-Men, Spiderman, Iron Man, or, really any good movie in Hollywood nowadays (since they're all adaptations of something anyway), which takes liberties with the plot and keeps the core, which this movie, it seems, isn't doing. The only reason you don't think so is because you don't think the core of Dragonball had any real substance to it.
Aesir
Smash Master
Because at it's core that's what the series is, you can get into details but ultimately those are the basic elements of the story wrap it around in chinese folklore and there you have it. I'm going to put on a pedestal and say it's something that it's not.
The beauty of dragonball is not in it's core it's in the details. All arcs have fairly different plot lines that happen to have a story and something interesting going on. But at the core it's generic.
Again with the money bag rhetoric? If their goal was to money bag they wouldn't have made it in the first place.
Yes it is an adaptation I can't believe you're still clinging to that.
Webster: something that is adapted; specifically: a composition rewritten into a new form
Funny isn't that what this movie is?
Congratulations you just described shounen, which is exactly what dragonball falls under.
What this is is an alternate telling it's not like the setting of dragonball is so rigid it can't be told in a different way. Also how will taking the name dragonball attract more money? do you not realize the financial gamble they're making with this? unlike spider man and superman whose fan base is larger then people who aren't fans. Dragonball has a very minor fan base in the west. Non-fans clearly out number the fans. if putting dragonball was their way of generating more money someone needs to go ahead and fire their marketing division.
Again the fan bases of Spiderman, X-Men and Iron man are a lot larger then the dragonball fan base so tampering with those core elements is financial suicide. Furthermore those series have all had various different authors at one point so fans are use to alternate telling's.
I really hate to get analytical, but, if you insist...
Ok... so...
Your points seem to be:
1) The fanbase of DBZ isn't that big, so their opinions don't matter in the face of making money.
I don't even want to get into how messed up that one is.
2) Once again, you don't think Shounen in general can be anything like complex; You have a lack of respect for the genre in general.
That's your problem, and all it makes it seem like is that you don't think this criticism is necessary because you don't respect the genre, despite insisting your a fan. Thus, it seems less like you have any real opinions on why the criticism is undeserved and more because you don't think it deserves to be respected the way a good adaptation would.
3) They wouldn't be making the movie if it wasn't a money grab.
Yeah... that's my point. Money grabs tend to be low quality attempt to make quick money off of an established source.
4) Dragonball is generic.
That I halfway agree with. Dragonball Z got more and more repetitive as Toriyama took up the story again and again at the request of the ones who ran the comic, but, as you said, was still very good anyway. Dragonball (before DBZ), didn't really have the same problem, since he was given more control; the plot was much more spontaneous and, well, wacky.
DB and DBZ isn't the greatest thing ever written, far from it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't deserve a good adaptation. It doesn't have as much complexity as some others, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have any substance.
5) You can boil it down to a hero fighting an antagonist, with magic balls thrown in.
I grabbed this from one of your older posts, but I had to say something because it was such a particularly bad definition (both of the show itself, and bad definition in principle). It's technically correct, but a poor definition and needlessly simple. It's technically correct, but actually says nothing.
To you, setting means nothing? Effort in creating characters and plotlines means nothing? The only thing that matters is the bare minimum, and anything else is just addition that contributes nothing to the core? If that's all you consider fictional works to be, then it's no wonder you don't think a bad adaptation means anything.
Any and every book, show, comic, manga, etc, can be boiled to a single sentence that, while accurately by necessity, is so needlessly simple that it doesn't actually explain a thing.
6) An adaptation inherently a change to the original. Any adaptation is thus acceptable.
Ok, after countering this a few times, I'm just going to state it simply. A good adaptation makes it's own changes the plots and tweaks the characters, but keeps the basic spirit of not just the premise, but the plot and the characters themselves. The moment an adaptation starts messing with the the essence of it's source, then it's becomes bad. Your main problem seems to be that you don't think the source in this case has any substance.
You keep going back to assuming the people you're talking about want a 100% true adaptation, which is impossible to get. We all know that. That doesn't mean people should satisfied with anything that has the name.
TVTropes has a couple pretty good names for the type of movie this is going to turn out to be: In Name Only and Dolled Up Installment.
Aesir
Smash Master
From a marketing stand point yes, from a fan stand point? I'm with you. I would like if the story was at least close to the original as possible. However after watching the trailer and extended footage I'm guzzling down the hateraid until I see the movie. Simply put this is an American Director I don't expect him to care all that much about appealing to the fans. I would say he's more concerned about appealing to a large audience.
90% of all mangas I read are shounen. As much as I rag on it for it's cliches I wouldn't read it if I didn't like it.
I'm simply approaching this rationally, I would rather the direct do his own thing then be free to do what he likes. Rather then have him bogged down to the story of Dragonball. Because truth be told I've read it enough times where an alternative telling would be refreshing to see. Plus it would be nice to see how a western adaptation would look.
I'm simply choosing to be open minded rather then pessimistic.
You either missed the point or are choosing to not see it. This project is a huge gamble. Considering the big names they're bringing for production it's likely they won't be breaking even if it bombs which there's a great possibility it will due to Dragonballs lack of appeal to western audiences outside of the anime crowd. (wow run sentences x_X)
It'll never be given a good adaptation because the story is whacky it's not a live action type of movie.[/quote]
Again I'm simply approaching this rationally, DB is series that can't be transferred into live action very well. I'm not bashing the criticism just for the sake of it being criticism I'm bashing it because I feel it's pre-mature. It reminds me of spider man and batman pre-preduction everyone thought it was going to fail. The more footage came out the less people complained. Which has been a trend I've been noticing with dragonball lately.
If the movie ends up sucking then yeah we can bash the **** out of it. However I just think it's pre-mature. Or who knows this could turn into another "I am Legend" for me.
Simple definitions aren't bad, you just think I'm doing some grave injustice. I would do the same to any other manga. Fma for instance which happens to be my favorite manga I can easily narrow that down too despite it's obvious complex and deep story line. as long as it has the basic premise of the story I'll hold my tongue until I see it.
I think you misunderstood me. I said the setting isn't rigid, it's actually a pretty good setting to be honest. Why? simple you can do basically anything with the DB setting which is why I think the adaptation works. I mean the director could have put more thought in appealing to the fans but he didn't. I would say watch it when it comes out, if it ends up sucking well then you have one up on me.
That's where details come in, which the director tried to change.
No I just think the original source isn't movie material. This could very well be a bad adaptation I'm not ignoring the possibility.
Lol irrational demands tends to do this.
outside of the "there's no krillen?!?!?!" opinion. I find most criticisms to be unfair.
Vorguen
Smash Champion
Dragonball has a LOT of fans. You forget that not only was it a huge show in the US but actually it was THE number one or number two most popular anime in Mexico. It's only contender was Saint Seiya. Now, also, this movie is watched outside of the US too. I have travelled all over Mexico and seen PLENTY of American movies in theatres there as well as the Mexican ones. So this movie is being shown in more than just the US. It turns out, that Dragonball really does have a pretty huge base of fans, and to all of us, this movie is a massacre of that.
The actor for Goku fits nowhere into Goku for looks, personality, charisma, attitude, and even the way they fight. This is seriously like trying to make a pirate movie with naval warfare take place in the middle of a desert. You just can't have it. Some movies just NEED certain things. As a pirate movie needs ships and oceans, the Dragonball movie at least needs certain key traits of the real Dragonball show to at least be able to call itself Dragonball.
Seriously, the way I see in that movie, is it didn't even need the name Dragonball on it! If you change the name of the movie, and the characters and their moves, I could swear to you absolutely nobody would know it was even Dragonball.
And that's how you know it isn't worth anything. (Yes Dragonballs would be called something else, and pointing out there are 7 well 7 is a significant number throughout history anyway through music and other stuff as well)
The actor for Goku fits nowhere into Goku for looks, personality, charisma, attitude, and even the way they fight. This is seriously like trying to make a pirate movie with naval warfare take place in the middle of a desert. You just can't have it. Some movies just NEED certain things. As a pirate movie needs ships and oceans, the Dragonball movie at least needs certain key traits of the real Dragonball show to at least be able to call itself Dragonball.
Seriously, the way I see in that movie, is it didn't even need the name Dragonball on it! If you change the name of the movie, and the characters and their moves, I could swear to you absolutely nobody would know it was even Dragonball.
And that's how you know it isn't worth anything. (Yes Dragonballs would be called something else, and pointing out there are 7 well 7 is a significant number throughout history anyway through music and other stuff as well)
Aesir
Smash Master
Yeah and I'm sure a kid in an orange GI shooting fire balls out of his hand flying and fighting a green bald dude from space who's trying to collect 7 items to summon a dragon.
Really didn't scream dragonball at all.
Really didn't scream dragonball at all.
Vorguen
Smash Champion
Nope, it screamed generic.
But in all seriousness it was an exageration to prove a point. All in all I'm going to watch this movie anyway and It is going to have to do a really good job to impress me. I am going to watch it so close-minded, lol.
But in all seriousness it was an exageration to prove a point. All in all I'm going to watch this movie anyway and It is going to have to do a really good job to impress me. I am going to watch it so close-minded, lol.
Aesir
Smash Master
Then you'll hate it anyway even if it ends up being a decent movie.
All I'm trying to say is, maybe if everyone approached this a little more open minded you might be surprised.
All I'm trying to say is, maybe if everyone approached this a little more open minded you might be surprised.
Vorguen
Smash Champion
I know but you are asking for the impossible. No matter how hard I try there is no way I can watch this open-mindedly. I am just being honest. :/
But as I was saying, there are plenty of movies I watched close-mindedly and ended up thinking they were amazing movies. We'll see if this can pull it off.
But as I was saying, there are plenty of movies I watched close-mindedly and ended up thinking they were amazing movies. We'll see if this can pull it off.
If that's what you meant all along, then it's not what you kept implying. The idea I got from most of what you said was that you didn't think Dragonball had any substance to base a movie on in the first place.
Open mindedness is a good thing, but there's such a thing as being open but skeptical. The fact that most of the info we get about the movie points towards it being generic and lacking don't really help things in the skepticism department.
Aesir
Smash Master
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-rE_M5oQd0
for those of you who want to see a comparison.
Code: fair enough.
for those of you who want to see a comparison.
Code: fair enough.
CodeBlack, you're completely missing Aesirs points.
I'm just going to take one thing you said to show you what I mean.
"hell, Goku being in high school defies the premise of Dragonball entirely"
You're saying that since Goku was a child in dragonball and this Goku is older it should not be called Dragonaball. Yet, in DBZ Goku was a adult so this film should not be called DBZ either correct? Do you see how ridiculous that is? Who cares how old he is?
You can't fit 100's of hours of animation into a single film. It's not realistic to expect a exact re-telling of the same stories that you are already familiar with. Nor is it necessary. As long as they keep the core elements of the DB universe it's ok.
Aesir made a valid point with the re-telling of comic book stories. In the spider films and multiple comic arcs what happens? Peter Parker is bitten by a radioactive spider and gains his super abilities. Aside from that is the story always told the same way? No. There will of coure be familar elemtns and characters but each author will tell the stories in their own way. In the spider man films Peter naturally makes webs instead of creating them. Despite the fact that some(many?) people made a big deal out of that it really isn't. Why should this be any different?
The fact that they bothered to do re-shoots mean they must care about the qaulity at least a little. Right?
edit: I need to learn to type faster. XD
I'm just going to take one thing you said to show you what I mean.
"hell, Goku being in high school defies the premise of Dragonball entirely"
You're saying that since Goku was a child in dragonball and this Goku is older it should not be called Dragonaball. Yet, in DBZ Goku was a adult so this film should not be called DBZ either correct? Do you see how ridiculous that is? Who cares how old he is?
You can't fit 100's of hours of animation into a single film. It's not realistic to expect a exact re-telling of the same stories that you are already familiar with. Nor is it necessary. As long as they keep the core elements of the DB universe it's ok.
Aesir made a valid point with the re-telling of comic book stories. In the spider films and multiple comic arcs what happens? Peter Parker is bitten by a radioactive spider and gains his super abilities. Aside from that is the story always told the same way? No. There will of coure be familar elemtns and characters but each author will tell the stories in their own way. In the spider man films Peter naturally makes webs instead of creating them. Despite the fact that some(many?) people made a big deal out of that it really isn't. Why should this be any different?
The fact that they bothered to do re-shoots mean they must care about the qaulity at least a little. Right?
edit: I need to learn to type faster. XD
Vorguen
Smash Champion
Because now we have our childhood pride at stake. lol
Aesir
Smash Master
Besides I'm biased.
It has Emmy Rossum, seriously..... <_<;
It has Emmy Rossum, seriously..... <_<;
Vorguen
Smash Champion
Who the heck is she? rofl
Aesir
Smash Master
D:
She's playing Bulma in the movie LOL. She was also in The Day After Tomorrow. she's also really cute.. >_>
She's playing Bulma in the movie LOL. She was also in The Day After Tomorrow. she's also really cute.. >_>
Vorguen
Smash Champion
I have no idea. Was The Day After Tomorrow that end of the world movie with the actor from Bubble Boy? lol
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 10,479
I don't know if it has been said yet, but the horrible truth of this movie is this: we are all still going to go out and see it knowing full well how bad it will be.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 10,479
You will do it in your sleep. You'll wake up to find cash missing from your wallet.