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Double Stick Mechanics and how it affects Grab Breaking, Momentum Cancelling, and SDI

DeLux

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So according to Magus, would you be able to double stick SDI if you hold the analogue stick in the 3 direction, but tap the cstick in the 3 direction assuming the inputs are 10 degrees apart?

I ask because based on my observation (and guessing on his correction he made, KPrime observed the same thing), it doesn't behave in that manner

Of course, my observation might be wrong
 

MonkUnit

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<Magus>: anyway to answer his question, no because thats not what i said
<Magus>: refer to my sdi diagram thats been posted half a dozen times in teh melee section
<Magus>: shows where the thresholds for sdi through rotation are
<Magus>: theyre like 10 degrees off from each cardinal direction
<Magus>: up and to the right is not a cardinal direction btw
 

Isatis

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perhaps I should just let the thread be checked for accuracy and finalized before I do the video >_>?
 

DeLux

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Well, by in large the written portion is correct if that's what he is saying.

We're just working the fine tuning out lol
 

MonkUnit

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Magus:
and before the brawl heads respond to my sdi diagram with "but thats melee not brawl" yes ive confirmed rotational sdi works the same exact way in brawl

DeLux -- Yes, I would assume that's what he means.

Bionic -- Yes, I would have this checked out before you make the next version of the video. I'll try and get Magus to look over the OP and video again when he gets time. If he doesn't get time, just make the video with the information he has supplied you so far.
 

Isatis

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I wonder if it'll work out better on IRC where DeLux can get on (it works via WiiNet) and where Magus is... already on.
 

MonkUnit

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Yeah, that would most likely work better LOL. He is currently on the #PMBR IRC at www.smashmods.com and go to to Project M -> IRC

You can do /query Magus

that way you can talk to him directly.

I'll inform him about this. I'll see if he'd rather do this later. Just wait a bit before you do this IRC thing.
 

DeLux

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I'm actually at work right now

and we get busy between 7-9

So if we're going to discuss, it needs to be soon
 

DeLux

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I get off work at 1am tonight central time
 

DeLux

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Yeah, I want him to check over the applications examples I gave for the most part.

I THINK they are still right based on what he's saying, except change 45 to 10-45 degrees.
But if he can check it that would be great :)
 

DeLux

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well the OP extends to like 5 posts so make sure you get all of it

We'll credit him if we haven't already added it
 

Isatis

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[9:05:17 PM] BioSonic: Alright
[9:05:20 PM] BioSonic: Any updates on the SDI info
[9:05:25 PM] BioSonic: Any corrections or things?
[9:05:33 PM] BioSonic: I plan to have the video at least 3/4 done by the end of tonight
 

Isatis

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[yt]VzG7sa7oiek[/yt]

Does not include DeLux's corrections from Magus. Someone told me about the Dair thing which was preferred, but if it's not true I'll remove it
 

DeLux

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I am going to get on making the corrections soon
 

DeLux

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so ummm
[12:26:14 PM] DeLux: I'm going to release
[12:26:19 PM] DeLux: the Dual Stick thread
[12:26:24 PM] DeLux: tonight
[12:26:31 PM] DeLux: video or not
[12:26:36 PM] DeLux: please object if you have objections
 

DeLux

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From what I understand, Bio passed the video to GIMR
GIMR has not responded on skype

I want to get the info out so GIMR can address the option select I pointed out for his metagame minute

GIMR respond lol



If it helps buy more time, I want someone to look into BSticking and how it works.

Because I suspect that while a Bstick input will create SDI, I don't think it responds to Dual Sticking in the same manner. I don't understand why, and if we could include something about that great, but if not, it's not really necessary in my opinion.
 

Toomai

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I'm guessing that a B-Stick will work just like a C-Stick in most situations except for a few purposely coded ones, such as pressing backwards while running (which presumably generates a jump input instead of a direction+special one).

T-Stick is probably similar, though since it doesn't go 100% in any direction it'll be weaker/have no effect.
 

standardtoaster

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From Project M Blogpost #2:

Double Stick DI

This was an exceptionally advanced technique in melee that allows the user to DI with both the C-stick and Joystick for advanced DI inputs. In brawl, you could not DI with the C-stick at all outside of the 1 frame of directional input when set to smash/attack/special, removing a lot of complicated input options that with perfect DSDI could result in survival in melee. In an environment where we have reintroduced melee DI potency and joystick potency, it was important to reintroduce DSDI. We have programmed DSDI to work analogous to melee, where you ASDI with the C-stick, and trajectory DI with the joystick. Normally the control stick will input trajectory DI and ASDI together in the direction it is being held, but with the c-stick direction taking priority for ASDI when both are pressed it allows the trajectory DI and ASDI to be in entirely separate directions. Here is a prime example of the utility of DSDI:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei-iOIN32i4


Thought this might be of some use.

:phone:
 

T-block

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That's an entirely different phenomenon. DSDI in Melee was using the analog stick to influence trajectory so that the C-stick ASDI down would enable you to tech the floor. Here both sticks are being used to SDI.
 

DeLux

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Shield DI and Option Selects:

It should be noted that when in shield hitlag, a player can SDI horizontally while remaining in shield.

ISSDI and Dual Sticking can be manipulated to create some truly unique option selects out of shield:

If you hold the analog stick towards your opponent and cstick upwards, you perform a Forward Roll or Buffer Grab Option Select. If inputted outside of the presence of shield hitlag, you will input a forward roll. In the presence of shield hitlag, you will input two analog stick SDI input towards your opponent for a grab if you input both sticks during shield hitlag. However, if you were holding forward prior to going into shield and shield hitlag and only the cstick is inputted during shield hitlag, it will perform only one SDI input while buffering a grab. The option select will then alternatively be a standing grab if inputted outside of the context of shield hitlag. For either of these option selects, inputting jump prior to hitting cstick up will replace grab with an usmash out of shield in the trade of the option select.

If you hold the analog stick towards your opponent and then input away from your opponent, you perform a Back Roll or Buffered Grab Option Select. If inputted outside of the presence of shield hitlag, you will backwards roll. If inputted during shield hitlag, you will first input a cstick measure of SDI away from your opponent. The frame immediately after, you will input an analog stick length of SDI towards your opponent. Since a full analog stick SDI input is longer than a Cstick input, you will have net movement towards your opponent while in shield hitlag. The net gain is large enough to allow In Shield SDIing over the ledge, which is useful in anti-planking situations. This can be used as a safety option if one is unsure if they are going to be hit on shield because rolling away from your opponent is generally safer than rolling into your opponent.

Manipulating the analog stick towards your opponent while in shield hitlag and tapping down on the cstick creates the effect of ISSDI inputs towards the opponent and immediately buffering spot dodge. If done in shield hitlag for a multi hit move, it's possible to actually use the early (and usually weaker) hitboxes your opponent does on shield while side stepping the last (and usually strongest knockback) hit box, increasing spacing and frame advantage.
 

DeLux

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In retrospect, I'm debating including how you can use the dual stick stuff to make things easier like D3's infinite on snake and stuff like that.

Seems kind of ad hoc to make a write up about it though
 
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