Double Stick Mechanics and how it affects Grab Breaking, Momentum Cancelling, and SDI

[DeLux]

I. Intro
There’s a lot of misinformation floating around on how to manipulate SDI and DI. Words like HCDI, QCDI, Tap DI fly around and there’s been huge debate over which is the best method on how to DI. The goal of the thread is to debunk some of the myths and bring to the light the facts on understanding and executing ideal SDI and DI. For now, let’s suspend our beliefs in anything we know about proper SDI and build on new discoveries based on basic inputs.

While trying to find the "ideal SDI and DI", we stumbled upon an input mechanic that revolves around how a player can abuse the cstick and analogue stick to create multiple inputs at once.

II. Simultaneous Cstick and Analogue Stick (Dual Sticking)
Everything you are about to read in this thread revolves around the Cstick and the mechanics of how it relates to the analogue/control stick. Assuming the cstick is set to smash, a cstick input will read as a “analogue direction + attack”.

However, things begin to operate differently once you start incorporating simultaneous analogue and Cstick inputs. In order to accurately explain what occurs, we need to examine the directional inputs in terms of vectors. There are four cardinal directions for Brawl (Up, Down, Left, and Right). Any other direction in the 360 degree spectrum is just a combination of two vectors.

That being stated, it’s been documented that an interesting phenomenon occurs when both the analogue stick and the csticks inputted at full throw are combined: If the analogue stick is held at full throw, inputting a cstick order will cause the game to read the cstick direction followed by the analogue stick direction on back to back frames.

For example, if one were holding full right on the control stick, and then tapped Up on the cstick, the game would read: Directional input Up + attack > Directional input right on back to back frames. Then end result over the two frame span would be directional vectors of Up + Right.

At the same time, the cardinal directions act as thresholds where if they are crossed in the angle created by the two separate stick input directions, the game reads the second directional input, or snap back input, as a completely new input. This is opposed to simply holding an input in the same direction, which is what the game reads when a cardinal direction threshold is not met.

Now that we have the mechanics sorted out, let’s look into a few methods of practical application:

III. Grab Breaking
KPrime released a method of grab breaking a few months ago that was considered fairly revolutionary. In the method, a player needed to hold the control stick in a direction with his index finger while using his thumb to rock the dpad for inputs. At the same time, he would also have to input the cstick in a different direction.

 

[DeLux]

Most people thought that the grab break method was revolutionary because it was fast. But the true genius behind this specific grab break method was because it manipulated the Dual Stick inputs to create frame perfect grab break inputs. Since on every frame of struggle, a user can input a direction and another miscellaneous order such as attack/jump/special/shield in order to grab break. By using the cstick in combination with the analogue stick, every tap of the cstick would then count as two inputs of direction if the user crossed at least one cardinal direction threshold.

 

[DeLux]

IV. Momentum Cancelling

For vertical momentum cancelling, save for a few exceptions, the best method is to use your character's fastest aerial and immediately follow it with a fastfall. By manipulating double stick inputs, we are now able to frame perfect input an aerial followed by a fastfall, instead of hoping that repeatedly tapping down while tapping the cstick in the aerial direction lands on the ideal frame. In order to do this, a player must do the following:

Step 1: DI whichever horizontal direction is needed to best change the angle of orientation of the attack towards a corner of the blastzone.

Step 2: After the DI stage, hold the analogue stick down

Step 3: Tap the Cstick in the cardinal direction of the aerial you desire

If done properly, your character will frame perfect execute a fastfall immediately after an aerial is inputted. If you want to test if you are doing this properly, full hop your character and follow the instruction AFTER your character reaches the peak of their jump. If they fastfall instantly during the aerial, you are doing it correctly.

It should be kept in mind that this is not meant to be used in combination with Dair. Assuming the Dair of a specific character does not have momentum changing properties as seen in some characters (ie. Toon Link/IC/ZSS), Dair with cstick while the control stick is not held down for any value is the fastest method to achieve a fastfall because it fastfalls on the exact frame Dair is inputted. The method listed here inputs the aerial followed by a fastfall input on the frame immediately after.

 

[DeLux]

V. SDI

In terms ideal SDI, it's important to remember that hitlag occurs in relatively small windows of time. That being the case, it's unrealistic to expect for more than a few inputs to register, even at best. With that in mind, the ideal SDI method would require the least amount of human inputs that creates in contrast the most amount of game inputs.

Previous methods of "ideal SDI" required the player to input quarter circles and half circles with one hand while the other hand tapped the cstick in another direction. If one uses the double stick technique, they can achieve the same SDI results with less human inputs. In order to SDI ideally using this method, a player must hold the analogue stick full throw in one direction while tapping the Cstick in another direction. The SDI direction will be the direction that bisects the angle created by the vectors, and it will read as nearly two SDI inputs in that direction over two frames. In an ideal setting, SDIing in the cardinal directions is generally more powerful than SDIing in the diagonal directions by a small margin because of the mechanics operating behind SDI. In order to SDI using the double stick method, the inputs of the cstick and analogue stick need to be separated by at least one cardinal direction line.

The rules of SDI registry in terms of cardinal directions is displayed in the following picture provided by Magus:

When determining SDI, it is important to keep in mind the vectors:

To SDI Up: Hold Control Stick Up + Right > Tap Cstick Up + Left Repeatedly
Hold Control Stick Up + Left > Tap Cstick Up + Right Repeatedly

To SDI Right: Hold Control stick Up + Right > Tap Cstick Down + Right Repeatedly
Hold Control stick Down + Right > Tap Cstick Down + Up Repeatedly

To SDI Left: Hold Control Stick Up + Left > Tap Cstick Down + Left Repeatedly
Hold Control Stick Down + Left > Tap Cstick Up + Left Repeatedly

To SDI Down: Hold Control Stick Down + Left > Tap Cstick Down + Right Repeatedly
Hold Control Stick Down + Right > Tap Cstick Down + Left Repeatedly

In theory, the ideal method would be to hold the analogue stick slightly more than 10 degrees angled from directly up while tapping the cstick in the direction that is slightly more than 10 degrees away from true up in the opposite direction. From a controller design standpoint, most players will be able to repeatedly tap at a 45 degree angle difference than the desired SDI direction, which in theory leads to less total SDI distance traveled, but is still a significant amount.

To SDI Up + Right: Hold Control Stick Up > Tap Cstick Right Repeatedly
Hold Control Stick Right > Tap Cstick Up Repeatedly

To SDI Down + Right: Hold Control Stick Down > Tap Cstick Right Repeatedly
Hold Control Stick Right > Tap Cstick Down Repeatedly

To SDI Down + Left: Hold Control Stick Down > Tap Cstick Left Repeatedly
Hold Control Stick Left > Tap Cstick Down Repeatedly

To SDI Up + Left: Hold Control Stick Up > Tap Cstick Left Repeatedly
Hold Control Stick Left > Tap Cstick Up Repeatedly

In the cases of the diagonals, the ideal method is creating the 90 degrees. Anything less and the cardinal direction crossover threshold is not met and the double stick mechanics fails to register in SDI.

It is also possible to manipulate the SDI into 1/16th directions (ie. Up + right > Up), but they require far more specific inputs in order to satisfy the change in cardinal direction threshold.


Notes: You can't use this method if the Cstick is set to "Attack". The Cstick actually inputs slightly less distance than the Analog stick tilted to full throw. Based on sources, the Cstick input direction approximately .72 the degree of a fully tilted analogue stick input.

 

[DeLux]

VI. Platform Cancelling

It has previously been documented that a player can platform cancel using down aerial, down + specials, down + shield, or simply tapping down on the control sticking and returning the stick to neutral at the appropriate time. it is also possible to platform cancel by holding down on the analogue stick and tapping the cstick in any direction. If you hold down and also hold a horizontal direction on the analogue stick, it is possible to buffer a dash straight out of platform cancel if combined with a cstick input.

By doing this, it creates an interesting option select. For example, certain characters do not have a safe Dair for platform cancelling (see IC's/TL/etc). Improper execution of a platform cancel offstage on a level such as Smashville would almost mean certain death. By using the alternate cstick method, you can safeguard your platform cancel with an alternate aerial in the event you fail to execute the technique. This adds another available option other than the accidental Dairs, Down Specials, or Empty hops that might normally occur with present techniques.


VII. In Shield SDI and Option Selects:

It should be noted that when in shield hitlag, a player can SDI horizontally while remaining in shield.

ISSDI and Dual Sticking can be manipulated to create some truly unique option selects out of shield:

If you hold the analog stick towards your opponent and cstick upwards, you perform a Forward Roll or Buffer Grab Option Select. If inputted outside of the presence of shield hitlag, you will input a forward roll. In the presence of shield hitlag, you will input two analog stick SDI input towards your opponent for a grab if you input both sticks during shield hitlag. However, if you were holding forward prior to going into shield and shield hitlag and only the cstick is inputted during shield hitlag, it will perform only one SDI input while buffering a grab. The option select will then alternatively be a standing grab if inputted outside of the context of shield hitlag. For either of these option selects, inputting jump prior to hitting cstick up will replace grab with an usmash out of shield in the trade of the option select.

If you hold the analog stick towards your opponent and then input away from your opponent, you perform a Back Roll or Buffered Grab Option Select. If inputted outside of the presence of shield hitlag, you will backwards roll. If inputted during shield hitlag, you will first input a cstick measure of SDI away from your opponent. The frame immediately after, you will input an analog stick length of SDI towards your opponent. Since a full analog stick SDI input is longer than a Cstick input, you will have net movement towards your opponent while in shield hitlag. The net gain is large enough to allow In Shield SDIing over the ledge, which is useful in anti-planking situations. This can be used as a safety option if one is unsure if they are going to be hit on shield because rolling away from your opponent is generally safer than rolling into your opponent.

Manipulating the analog stick towards your opponent while in shield hitlag and tapping down on the cstick creates the effect of ISSDI inputs towards the opponent and immediately buffering spot dodge. If done in shield hitlag for a multi hit move, it's possible to actually use the early (and usually weaker) hitboxes your opponent does on shield while side stepping the last (and usually strongest knockback) hit box, increasing spacing and frame advantage.

 

[DeLux]

Credit goes to:

1. Yikarur for first opening up research and observing the simultaneous Analogue/C Stick action
2. KPrime for releasing the videos that ultimately inspired future research into the topic
3. Stealth Raptor for the original write up on the topic
4. Bionic for Videos
5. rSPI for being a fearless leader
6. Mr. Doom for setting an example SDI that I'd try to emulate
7. Toomai for some Cstick info
8. Dnyce for helping test
9. Coyn3Masta for helping Bio with the video
10. MK26 for additional troubleshooting
11. Magus for correcting technical information
12. The rest of the Smash Lab for being Awesome

 

[Isatis]

for the other smash researchers -- this is a working copy of what we are going to post in Gameplay & Tactical as well as keeping track of the video I'm going to make and upload to the VGBC account.

we're trying to make it sound less technical and more understandable so feel free to point out any mistakes, as well as what we need to fix in regards to errors or wording.

and if we forgot to credit you -- post!

 

[_Kadaj_]

Very nice so far!

I like the direction it is heading

 

[DeLux]

Does anyone know the mechanics of platform cancelling?

This mechanic is why you can use the cstick while holding down in order to platform cancel. I might include that in the write up.

 

[MK26]

whats being said in this thread is sufficient for DI in Brawl but not entirely complete...

From Magus (source):

This is the control stick, obviously. For purposes of SDI, the blue zone is considered 'neutral', while moving the control stick from inside the blue zone to inside the orange zone is considered one input. When rotating the stick clockwise, the placement of the stick on the first frame after it passes a pink arrow is the next DI input (likewise for blue arrows and counterclockwise). This is why going from a diagonal to a cardinal direction (the '36' in '23698') is ignored - because you don't pass an arrow.

The c-stick is considered a macro of 'control stick + attack' by the game, overriding the control stick's direction for one frame. More c-stick inputs are ignored until after the c-stick has been returned to the blue zone. This explains why 'hold 7, c-stick 9' provides 3 inputs - the game considers the upper pink arrow crossed on the frame the c-stick is pressed and the upper blue arrow on the frame afterward.

===

In Melee, the control stick was looked at as a circle. That is, the most you could move in any direction via SDI was a total of 1 space per input. You could go 1 space directly horizontal, directly vertical, diagonally, at a 20 degree angle, etc. As an example, if you divided an up-right SDI into its components, you would see that you move 1/sqrt(2) spaces up and 1/sqrt(2) right (see: pythagorean theorem), for a total movement of 1 space. Thus, 'ideal' SDI, getting the most possible movement in one cardinal direction, would involve deviating from that direction by 10 degrees on either side to move as directly as possible while still crossing its blue and pink arrows.

On the other hand, Brawl looks at the control stick a little differently. The maximum movable distance during SDI is not right at the edge of the control stick but somewhat inward. This means that if you move the control stick all the way in a cardinal direction in Brawl, you have a 1-space movement, but if you move off the cardinal towards the diagonal, you still get that full 1 space in that direction in addition to whatever the component of the other direction is! Right at the diagonal, your movement is a full space in both components. That means you move a total of sqrt(2) spaces in the diagnoal direction, as opposed to Melee's 1 space. Think of Brawl's control stick like a square rather than a circle - you can go completely in one direction and completely in a perpendicular direction at the same time, rather than only being able to go partially in both. Thus, you get no benefit from sticking within 10 degrees of the cardinal as opposed to going to diagonals (unless it's faster for you), as you'll get the maximum amount of SDI in whatever particular cardinal direction both ways.

tl;dr: Melee ideal DI in a cardinal direction is hold control stick 10 degrees off the cardinal and smash the c-stick 10 degrees off the cardinal the other way, while Brawl ideal SDI works with any number of degrees 10 to 45 off the cardinal, and gives a slightly larger boost in whatever direction than Melee does.

===

This applies to trajectory DI as well, using the same concepts (Melee maximum anywhere is 1 space, Brawl maximum on cardinals is 1 space but on diagonals is sqrt(2) spaces (by 'Project:M', the pictures mean 'Melee and Project:M'):

Spoiler

===

This also applies to escaping grabs and breaking stun, ex. holding the control stick on 7 while moving the c-stick from 9 to 1 and back (game reads the stick as 797179717...) is significantly faster than not holding the control stick (read as 9191...), and moving the control stick from 7 to 3 while moving the c-stick from 9 to 1 (alternating so that one stick is moving while the other stick is still) is significantly faster than both (797313797313...). Note how all of those notations have two 9's and two 1's but vastly different amounts of control stick inputs.

a post of mine on di from the project m thread

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Veril and I were actually looking into platform cancelling a few months ago. I'd been collecting data on platform cancelling and EAC pseudo-wavelanding using aerials and other methods. We'd also been looking at aerials in OSA and been examining certain bits (RA bits 16 and 17 iirc). I saved our aim convo on the subject, and I'll post it once I've moved and settled into my new home (which might take two or three weeks >__>). I'll also post my data, once I find it. I tend to write stuff down in notebooks instead of on computers, but I'm pretty sure I can still find them. The C Stick does play a part in platform cancelling and the like because it allows for both a vector input and an aerial simultaneously, like previously stated.

 

[DeLux]

a post of mine on di from the project m thread

Wow, I actually had a discussion that pretty much outlined this entire post with KPrime in the Wario Panel thread lol

At the time, it was all based on empirical observation/testing and not data though :\

Veril and I were actually looking into platform cancelling a few months ago. I'd been collecting data on platform cancelling and EAC pseudo-wavelanding using aerials and other methods. We'd also been looking at aerials in OSA and been examining certain bits (RA bits 16 and 17 iirc). I saved our aim convo on the subject, and I'll post it once I've moved and settled into my new home (which might take two or three weeks >__>). I'll also post my data, once I find it. I tend to write stuff down in notebooks instead of on computers, but I'm pretty sure I can still find them. The C Stick does play a part in platform cancelling and the like because it allows for both a vector input and an aerial simultaneously, like previously stated.

I was more suspecting along the lines that if you hold down on the analogue stick while performing any aerial with the cstick, the one frame down input immediately after the aerial is what cancels.

You'd know better than I would, that was just my guess based on my understanding of the double stick shenanigans.

 

[DeLux]

I added a platform cancel section

 

[MK26]

Credit goes to:

1. Yikarur for first opening up research and observing the simultaneous Analogue/C Stick action
2. KPrime for releasing the videos that ultimately inspired future research into the topic
3. Stealth Raptor for the original write up on the topic
4. Bionic for Videos
5. rSPI for being a fearless leader
6. Mr. Doom for setting an example SDI that I'd try to emulate
7. Toomai for some Cstick info
8. Dnyce for helping test
9. Coyn3Masta for helping Bio with the video
10. MK26 for additional troubleshooting
11. The rest of the Smash Lab for being Awesome

5. rSPI for being a fearless leader

Last edited by ΡΨ; Today at 04:19 PM

I lol'd

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I lol'd

 

[Isatis]

so far

[yt]d6_44ggrx0w[/yt]

(do not give to anyone outside of the lab btw)

will add more examples of DI and start on SDI examples probably tomorrow

 

[MK26]

@0:36 show west coast di?

@1:05 does the graphic imply you can only sdi/di in the eight cardinal/ordinal directions and not in subdivisions between them?

 

[Isatis]

West Coast DI?

 

[MK26]

please dont tell me you dont know what west coast di is

please

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVJK98U99ZY

 

[rPSIvysaur]

for the video

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I think our MK should be some texture-hacked shade of cyan.

Also maybe the víctim should be either Lucario or Ivysaur? Idk

 

[Pikabunz]

Example 3: If one were to hold Up + Right on the control stick, and then tap Up on the cstick, the game would read: Directional input Up + attack > Directional input up + right on back to back frames.

Should be: Example 3: If one were to hold Up + Right on the control stick, and then tap Up on the cstick, the game would read: No directional input > Directional input up + right on back to back frames.

 

[DeLux]

Good catch Kprime

Will change after work

 

[Isatis]

[removed because posting newer one]

wip

 

[Exdeath]

Please make sure that you make use of the less common angles. The "DI horizontal KB moves up and vertical KB moves away from the stage" rule of thumb is possibly the most common mid-level player mistake that I encounter.

 

[DeLux]

I am posting here because Bio wants to talk about a "project". I assume it's this one.

Since I am unskypeable until Thursday or Friday when my charger comes, we'll have to do it the old school way and talk in a thread like the heathen kings of old

 

[Isatis]

Step 1: DI whichever horizontal direction is needed to best change the angle of orientation of the attack towards a corner of the blastzone.

xdeath: I was only using this one

 

[John12346]

This info is pretty old, so I'm not exactly sure how many people know about it, but SDI down inputs are disabled if you were hit while on the ground, AKA you can't just SDI up then SDI back down when you take a hit on the ground. This is likely a measure by the developers to prevent people from teching every single ground attack in the universe and living to 999% or something.

Not very helpful for anything, but it's information, so there you go, I guess...

 

[Isatis]

WORK IN PROGRESS NOT COMPLETE

[yt]I4C6kOjsyLE[/yt]

Fino/Dynce/Lux: you're probably going to have to point out what SDI method you used in the replays

 

[MonkUnit]

wheres the momentum canceling part? has that not been done yet? I only saw the DI stuff.

Also, would anyone mind if I showed this video to Magus? He is the one person that fully understands DI between Brawl and Melee, so I'm sure he could point out if anything is wrong with your information.

 

[DeLux]

Go ahead

More fact checking is better than less fact checking imo

Just make sure he doesn't show anyone else please

 

[MonkUnit]

oh of course

 

[Isatis]

its still unfinished, hence why its a work in progress and not complete

 

[John12346]

"Here's where you don't need to DI on some attacks."

That sounds very misleading, it makes it sound like you're not supposed to try to DI at all. Maybe reword it to "Here are some improper ways to DI."?

 

[MonkUnit]

Bionic -- I am aware that is a WIP now. I seemed to have skimmed your post and went straight to the video. I look forward to seeing it completed.

 

[Remzi]

Very good thread. Experimenting with it a bit and loving what I'm seeing so far.

 

[Isatis]

"Here's where you don't need to DI on some attacks."

That sounds very misleading, it makes it sound like you're not supposed to try to DI at all. Maybe reword it to "Here are some improper ways to DI."?

Will do .

 

[MonkUnit]

[6/30/11 6:11:25 PM] Monk: I'm showing Magus the DI video right now
[6/30/11 6:11:41 PM] Monk: Magus:
why is that diagram sectioned off like that?
[6/30/11 6:12:01 PM] Monk: Magus:
****ing wtf
Magus:
again misuse of west cost di
Magus:
there is no west coast di in brawl
Magus:
because there are no combos =D
[6/30/11 6:12:24 PM] Monk: Sorry for how the pasting is, that's how my IRC client does it
[6/30/11 6:17:17 PM] Monk: On 6/30/11, at 6:11 PM, Monk wrote:
> Magus:
> why is that diagram sectioned off like that?
Magus:
it suggest you move in specific directions
[6:17pm] Magus:
you move in the exact angle the stick is positioned
[6/30/11 6:19:30 PM] Monk: Magus:
and the only reason diagonals move both say up + left is because of the ****ed up inputs
[6/30/11 6:20:10 PM] Monk: Magus:
6 (SDI) and 3 (ASDI) is multiplied by that axis' input
Magus:
and thats your movement
Magus:
also, since the multiplier is the distance, moving just barely beyond the threshold to SDI will be less distance
Magus:
like you can sdi 2/3 to the left if you wanted
[6/30/11 6:20:16 PM] Monk: there you go, that should be all of the stuff on DI from Magus

 

[DeLux]

and the only reason diagonals move both say up + left is because of the ****ed up inputs
[6/30/11 6:20:10 PM] Monk: Magus:
6 (SDI) and 3 (ASDI) is multiplied by that axis' input
Magus:
and thats your movement

Can you elaborate on this entire section?



Did not know about the distance past threshhold and multiplier info. I'll amend that in my notes.

 

[MonkUnit]

Magus:
also they ****ed up
Magus:
cstick doesnt need to be 90 degrees away
Magus:
only needs to be like 10 away if control stick is on a cardinal

I believe he is referring to 6 and 3 as if they were on a number board:
1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9