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Doomed to low tier?

c0nd0r

Smash Apprentice
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Dec 8, 2008
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85
We always talk about mario moving into mid tier, but so do all of the other low tiers. Personally, I think Mario will fall in the next tier list for sure.

Lucas has a great recovery and a nice moveset, Ness is considered a good character with fair and all, yoshi has good matchups and infinites against many characters, and Sonics got some solid techs with tourney results to back him up.

Seriously, if this keeps up, I think mario will be bottom tier, right above PT and samus...

thoughts?
 

SkylerOcon

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You're stupid. Lucas and Ness are trash. Yoshi is the only low tier who can even dream of getting ahead of Mario.
 

Kinzer

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If he falls on the tier list, I'll lose all faith in the SBR.

No way is he low-tier.

I won't argue for the other characters mentioned though, Yoshi/mother boys have little hope, but you're right on Sonic.
 

Neon Ness

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You're stupid. Lucas and Ness are trash.
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: Wooooooow. Sounds like Xyro.

Anyway... Mario is too good for bottom tier. I've heard a lot of complaints from people about how tough Mario is to fight, and I don't think he has as many bad matchups as other low tiers. Admittedly Dedede is tough for Mario... or, I don't know that might just be me, but anyway. If he doesn't move up, it could only be because of a lack of representation... Maybe we just need more Marios...
 

c0nd0r

Smash Apprentice
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Dec 8, 2008
Messages
85
You're stupid. Lucas and Ness are trash. Yoshi is the only low tier who can even dream of getting ahead of Mario.
no reasoning??

they have better matchups and tourney results too.
but even you aren't sayig mario will make mid, right?
 

SkylerOcon

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Mario will undoubtedly make mid. Ask any SBR member. They will say that Mario is a middle tier character. Anybody who is in the SBR that doesn't say that shouldn't be in there in the first place.

Lucas and Ness are trash because:

1) They have horrible recoveries. PKT2 really isn't that good.
2) Killing is hard
3) Damage racking is hard

They have a lot of things against them. Their only good thing is that they have a decent projectile games. With Ness, his Fair is pretty good, but other than that, trash. Ness and Lucas are trash.

That said, they can still be good. Trash characters can be made good (like that PT mainer who is really godly. I forget his name).

Mario and Yoshi will be the two low tiers who make it to middle in the next tier list.
 

ThatGuy

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You're right man, Mario is garbage. He has no good matchups and the future is looking grim for him. Might as well just ignore that Mario exists, no reason to know what we're up to...
as we slowly prepare to take your money in tournament.

EDIT: Seriously Mario better stay crap tier or I will be unhappy =(
 

Judge Judy

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May 18, 2008
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no reasoning??

they have better matchups and tourney results too.
but even you aren't sayig mario will make mid, right?
I've been waiting to bring this up: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209413

Honestly, why do you think Mario deserves to stay in low? If it's because of DDD, go talk to the Luigi and DK boards.

You're right man, Mario is garbage. He has no good matchups and the future is looking grim for him. Might as well just ignore that Mario exists, no reason to know what we're up to...
as we slowly prepare to take your money in tournament.

EDIT: Seriously Mario better stay crap tier or I will be unhappy =(
If Mario stays in low tier we'll probaly start seeing threads on banning Mario in low tier tourneys lol.
 

Teh Future

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low tier character in brawl aren't bad, they just don't have that many great characteristics.

Mario has a bunch of good things about him, but nothing that sets him above characters in mid tier imo.

Lucas's recovery is better than marios anyways unless you're facing MK, but then you're screwed either way.

Stop worrying about tiers, they don't matter anyways.
 

A2ZOMG

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Vs Ness and Lucas.

Mario has better camping and combos. Lucas only wins out SLIGHTLY in terms of recovery and maybe edgeguarding. Ness only wins slightly over Mario in terms of KO options.

Mario in general is a lot faster in the air, and has better defensive options by far.

Mario doesn't get grab release comboed either.

Mario also does waaaaaaay better against Marth (no grab releases, fast enough to compete with Marth's speed), G&W (Up-B out of shield), Wolf (juggles and gimps), and Falco (juggles and gimps).

In short: Mario is a better character than Ness and Lucas.

Mario, Samus, Yoshi, and Sonic are in a similar rank. They do well in certain matchups, and fail in others.
 

Neon Ness

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Lucas and Ness are trash because:

1) They have horrible recoveries. PKT2 really isn't that good.
2) Killing is hard
3) Damage racking is hard

They have a lot of things against them. Their only good thing is that they have a decent projectile games. With Ness, his Fair is pretty good, but other than that, trash. Ness and Lucas are trash.
1. I concede that Ness' recovery isn't the greatest. But Lucas also has a tether recovery, zap jumping, and magnet pull for recovery. His PKT2 also travels twice the distance as Ness'. COUNTER'D.
2. Ness= Back throw, Back air, Down Air, Neutral air, Up Air, Side Tilt, PKT2. Lucas = Forward Smash, Down Smash, Up Smash, Down air, Back Air, Forward air, Forward tilt, PKT2, Dash Attack in some instances. With all of these options? Hard to kill? COUNTER'D.
3. Ness = Forward Air, Down tilt at close range, Forward Air, Thunda Juggling, and, uh... oh yeah. Forward Air. Lucas = Neutral air, Down tilt lock to forward smash, short hopped down air approaches, forward tilt at point blank and low percentages... COUNTER'D.

But this ain't a Mario vs. Lucas/Ness matchup discussion, so I guess I'm done hijacking the thread. I just can't help but offer advice when people insult the Earthbounders without valid reason.

But back on topic, as much as it saddens me, Mario probably belongs between Ness and Lucas if he really is going to stay in dirt tier. Just from personal experience, I can get opponents offstage and keep 'em there longer, for one. And he has a bit more options when it comes to edgeguarding. Ness' options are more lethal but less precise, so I suppose it's a tradeoff. And he can handle characters like Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, and Olimar that absolutely murk Ness with greater ease.
 

A2ZOMG

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Mario has Up-B and Up-smash out of shield. That alone seriously makes him better than Ness and Lucas. In general Mario has a much better defensive game than both Ness and Lucas.

I mean....Mario's Up-B out of shield can beat the Tornado and G&W's Back air. Ness and Lucas don't have anything nearly as good as that. Up-smash has very good range and speed and kills most of the cast at around 125% off the top.

Not forgetting the fact Mario has better combos.
 

Tlmab

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You're right man, Mario is garbage. He has no good matchups and the future is looking grim for him. Might as well just ignore that Mario exists, no reason to know what we're up to...
as we slowly prepare to take your money in tournament.

EDIT: Seriously Mario better stay crap tier or I will be unhappy =(
At least mario is not dead last at the tier list. (0~0), I believe in mario making mid.
 

Matador

Maybe Even...Utopian?
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In a game about options, Mario is a character full of them.

Seriously, just take a look; Fludd is an attack absolutely brimming with potential, as well as the cape. Mario cannot be camped, has a great gimp game, has a powerful KO move, a good shield pressure game, good combo game, a good enough recovery, an upB with invincibility frames...I could go on and on.

Aside from that, Mario is a very fast character, with most of his aerials coming out in under 6 frames (which also means his DI is THAT much better). He has a Nair similar to Luigi's broken one, which deals well with Olimar. Cape and Dair, which are great for picking up/dealing with ZSS' powersuit pieces and nanners (which is why I see Diddy and Mario as even), upB to deal with characters like G&W, Peach, and Luigi who completely outclass him in range and priority, and cape which turns around EVERY attack connected to a hurtbox (almost DK's entire moveset and quite a few of Snake's moves). His approach game is great....I could easily keep going.

Mario just isn't broken, that's what he's missing. He doesn't have an attack like G&W's Bair that you can just space and throw out to keep everything at bay, or a move like tornado/shuttleloop/Marth's Fair which beat everything under the right conditions. His recovery isn't easy to use, and he can't just swat every edgeguarding attempt away, or simply try again (lolRob). In short, Mario has no easy button. Characters like him, or Sonic, or Yoshi, or PT who have inherent flaws and require complete knowledge of the character to do okay vs hoards of broken ones are the ones who will either rise, or have good players pick them up and push their true potential.

If Mario stays low, he'll stay low. But it has nothing to do with what he's capable of because, quite frankly, SBR didn't know that much about Mario coming in here. They hit a few good points, but hit some really bad ones too. I suppose you can't expect them to know the in's and out's of every character, but the fact remains; their opinion holds little weight in the long run.
 

ThatGuy

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My 2 cents.

People won't give a **** about Mario until we all start placing well with him. If he stays low, it's because we're not good enough to play him at his proper level. All this theory talk will get us nowhere, and that's why a lot of low tiers will stay low tier.
 

The Milk Monster

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We always talk about mario moving into mid tier, but so do all of the other low tiers. Personally, I think Mario will fall in the next tier list for sure.

Lucas has a great recovery and a nice moveset, Ness is considered a good character with fair and all, yoshi has good matchups and infinites against many characters, and Sonics got some solid techs with tourney results to back him up.

Seriously, if this keeps up, I think mario will be bottom tier, right above PT and samus...

thoughts?
I think Ness won't move much if he moves, his grab release animation is terrible, everyone abuses it against him. Lucas maybe, iunno really. Yoshi is a possibility, Sonic maybe, iunno how much his metagame is advancing. PT, once more then just Reflex and a few others get great with all 3, he'll move up. Samus, her approach is limited because her missles aren't that great.
Mario, he could move up, we just gotta' see some people play great with him, emphasize all his potential.

Edit://
Besides what I said, I agree with Matador.
 

rm88

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I think he is quite underpowered, but recently I've been consistently pwning Marths with him. I mean, WTF @_@ Marth? Isn't he supposed to be one of his toughest match ups? So yeah, I'd not be surprised if Mario gets a little higher place on the list.
 

Matt07

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Lol, well G/W , and MK are quiet harder then Marth is, but he is a tough match-up, but some Mario's make it look easy :laugh:.

I think he has potential, but his tournament results are few and far. Some people play Mario/a secondary so that's less points. Boss has definately been showing some major potentional with Mario. Like top 10 out of 100+ people is amazing for two low tier characters (Mario, and Luigi.) He'll get pushed to mid mid, or mid low, in my opinion.

I dunno maybe Link will rise too? He seems pretty good for low tier.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
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Honestly, Mario isn't very good at all; he's definitely worse than both Ness and Lucas. Look at it from the perspective of a Mr. Game & Watch player; I'm not scared of any of the three of you because he definitely has an advantage on all three. However, you all have different things that can be problems for me.

Ness is the most threatening of the group. His forward aerial is very good at protecting him in the air, and all five of his aerials in general are reasonably good at challenging my air game by matching my range and damage with knockback power and speed. All of his smashes have a lot of range which means I can't just play ground spacing games against him all day either. He kills me super low from a grab, and he has a great dash grab. PK Thunder 2 is terrifying in the sense that, while I really can usually avoid it, it's a lot less easy to punish than it seems, and if I do happen to get hit, I'm in trouble.

Lucas is the middle guy in terms of being a threat. His aerials aren't nearly as good as Ness's, but his down aerial is still way too good and really is going to hurt me badly if I get caught in it. Lucas's forward smash is a top tier threat that can easily challenge all of my smashes and has no trouble killing. Lucas's recovery is amazingly good when you factor in zap jumping and that crazy thing he does with PSI Magnet to fly halfway across the stage; he's pretty much ungimpable. Tether grabs are also deceptively good against Mr. Game & Watch, and Lucas has, if I recall, the single best grab pummel out of the cast. He also has high quality moves like neutral aerial, jab, and down tilt that rack damage well; I am not worried about my ability to beat Lucas, but he keeps me on my toes!

Mario has... what again? His aerials all have laughably bad range so I can just throw my stuff at him all day in the air, and he can't do anything about it. The fact that he has no ability at all to defend himself from the front since his forward aerial is the single worst aerial in the game makes it way too easy to mess with him when he's recovering. Mario's Fireballs are worse than Pk Fire which wasn't significant enough to even list for either Ness or Lucas. The Cape is a joke; I have lots of moves that are effective regardless of which way I'm facing, and you are not gimping my recovery either way. F.L.U.D.D. is garbage; I don't care what you guys have convinced yourselves of otherwise. Any gimping tool that can be avoided by EITHER recovering too high or too low is obviously garbage. I'm not sure where the idea that Mario is good at combos came from, and it wouldn't matter anyway since Lucas does more with his down aerial than Mario does with 3-4 of his random weak hits. Mario's only two things that actually make me worry are his partially invincible up special and his forward smash. His forward smash is actually a really good move all around with solid range, power, and speed, but it's not as good as Lucas's forward smash regardless. His up special just doesn't do nearly enough when it hits to make up for how badly Mario is going to get owned when he misses; it's a good move, but it's not nearly enough to make Mario as a character.

I notice a lot of people like to say that Mario is "well rounded" so the fact that he has almost no strengths is offset. Even if that were true he would still be a bad character (jack of all trades is the worst role in any game unless you're above average at everything), but he actually has a lot of really bad attributes. His range is really no better than what Jigglypuff or Luigi have; that's the class of "worst range in the game except Wario". Did I mention that range is overall probably the most important character attribute in brawl, and if you have bad range and don't have especially good mobility, you have pretty much no way to actually hit half of the top tier? His recovery is pretty bad; it's probably in the bottom 10 out of the cast, and he gets to join Link as one of those rare characters who actually has to worry about not being able to get enough distance to make it back. He is also one of the worst characters at avoiding gimps because his forward aerial doesn't protect him at all in the air, and his other aerials, while they are useful to him on the stage, are really just not built to help him answer someone jumping out and smacking him which leaves him praying he can use the Cape to save himself (good luck; you're going to need it). It's actually strange that anyone would bring up Ness's recovery here because his double jump + forward aerial is better for recovery overall than everything Mario has put together.

Mario isn't quite the worst in the game, but he seems obviously pretty awful. I ordinarily wouldn't go into a character board to explain why your main is bad, but when people who use Mario, of all characters, start to call other characters garbage, they obviously have some bad perceptions. Yeah, your character is better than Ganon, but to be brutally honest, that's not even that comfortable of a lead... You're free to have fun with your definitively low tier main, but you need to be honest with yourselves about just how good your character actually is.
 

SkylerOcon

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From a perspective of a Mario players, Game and Watch is his second worst match-up (After Dedede, because of the infinite). Most of the time, we'll just counterpick against you. It's no secret that the only thing Mario has going for him in this match-up is FIHL (And yes, I know you said FLUDD is garbage, I don't care).

Trying to say 'Mario is trash because Game and Watch beats him' is stupid.
 

Matador

Maybe Even...Utopian?
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Wow...you're a genius. Where did you acquire your bountiful Mario knowledge?

Like...what Marios have you played? Do you play him yourself?

Edit: You know...I started to respond to this post...but it became so incredibly fallacious that I'd rather just ignore it.
 

Kanzaki

Smash Champion
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Amazing Ampharos:

It's obvious you don't play any good Mario players. Sure Mario doesn't have the best recovery in the world, but to rate it with Link? Pretty much 4/5 times I attempt to recover, I make it, even while being edge guarded. And why would I attempt to cover myself while recovering with a fair? I do at times for mindgames, but I throw out fireballs to cover myself, along with cape+uair/bair.

And rating a character as to how well they do against your main shouldn't base that character on the tier list... Game and Watch is one of Mario's worst match up, and one character alone shouldn't make Mario an instant low tier. If that's true, Ness/Lucas would be low tier for the rest of their lives.

Mario's range is subpar at best, but did you forget his stutterstep..? And range is an important attribute to Brawl, but that's where spacing comes in. Spacing is probably the most important attritube, and Mario's ability to space is pretty nice due to FLUDD and double aerials in one short hop. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that FLUDD is horrible, and I rarely use it, but there's other Mario mains here that put FLUDD into good use.

You also mentioned as how his fireball is horrible and PK fire is better? I'm probably one of the most spammiest Mario right now, and of course I don't use fireball against Game and Watch, I fear the bucket, but against every other character, there pretty much isn't a moment where I'm not using the fireball. Shorthop fireball is too good at approaching and fullhop fireball is too good at camping.
 

The Milk Monster

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Amazing Ampharos:

It's obvious you don't play any good Mario players. Sure Mario doesn't have the best recovery in the world, but to rate it with Link? Pretty much 4/5 times I attempt to recover, I make it, even while being edge guarded. And why would I attempt to cover myself while recovering with a fair? I do at times for mindgames, but I throw out fireballs to cover myself, along with cape+uair/bair.

And rating a character as to how well they do against your main shouldn't base that character on the tier list... Game and Watch is one of Mario's worst match up, and one character alone shouldn't make Mario an instant low tier. If that's true, Ness/Lucas would be low tier for the rest of their lives.

Mario's range is subpar at best, but did you forget his stutterstep..? And range is an important attribute to Brawl, but that's where spacing comes in. Spacing is probably the most important attritube, and Mario's ability to space is pretty nice due to FLUDD and double aerials in one short hop. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that FLUDD is horrible, and I rarely use it, but there's other Mario mains here that put FLUDD into good use.

You also mentioned as how his fireball is horrible and PK fire is better? I'm probably one of the most spammiest Mario right now, and of course I don't use fireball against Game and Watch, I fear the bucket, but against every other character, there pretty much isn't a moment where I'm not using the fireball. Shorthop fireball is too good at approaching and fullhop fireball is too good at camping.

Comparing to Link's recovery, Mario's is amazing.

I love Mario's fireballs in Brawl, you are able to control yourself while firing one a lot better in Brawl.

Game and Watch is just the better character compared to Mario/Ness/Lucas, using that as a comparison is like saying Yoshi should be top just because he's good against Metaknight(Not an identical argument but similar.)

Mario's range is nothing to brag about, but he fits his normal image, average. Mario's spacing ability is nothing to brag about as well, but it is good, above average with FLUDD, fireballs, his quickly executed aerials, etc.

And saying fireballs are better then PK Fire, it really depends what way you want to classify their use. Fireballs are good for camping and approaching like he said, PK Fire(Ness) is good for set ups, Lucas's is good for a good solid hit into a kill.
 

Kanzaki

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Yep, Milk!! you pretty much covered what I was saying xD

Amazing Ampharos was pretty much saying that Mario's recovery, fireball, and range are horrible.


And true about fireball/PK Fire, in my opinion though, fireball has more usage because of more range.
 

Matador

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My opinion stands strong, every time Ampharos posts, it's like a mountain, I never want to read all of it, can someone sum up what he said?
He said Ness and Lucas are better than Mario because they do better against G&W (debatable). Ness has his Fair, which barely ever beats G&W's Bair, longer range smashes except they're not cuz Mario's Fsmash is longer, a killing Bthrow even though Mario also has one of those as well, and his...PKT...2. That's why he's better than Mario...I guess?

Then we have Lucas who can't compete with G&W in the air either, but his Dair looks cool. His Fsmash kills top tiers, you can't gimp his recovery, he has a tether grab, and he has a fast pummel. His jab, Nair, and Dtilt rack up damage too, so he's better than Mario, but not better than Ness, apparently.

Then he said Mario can't compete with G&W in the air because his Fair sucks, Fireballs are worse than PKfire, his recovery sucks (bottom 10 even though PKNintendo has him as # 11!), he's not good at gimping because you can recover low, he's only a tiny bit better than Ganon, he can only hit G&W 3-4 times with weak hits, he's anal suckage at avoiding gimps because he's Italian, He has less range than Jigglypuff, his Fludd sucks cuz it should've been filled with koolaid, his cape is trash because it should've been blue and orange, his hat doesn't come off when he does a backflip, and he's on the corner of the select screen....

Edit: He also said the best Mario he's played is MitGB
 

Kanzaki

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OMGAH if the fludd squirted kool aid, one of his taunt HAS to be him eatting fried chicken. And make an alternate costume of him with a fro. Instant win right there. Got nothing on Conan o Lucas costume!
 

Matador

Maybe Even...Utopian?
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OMGAH if the fludd squirted kool aid, one of his taunt HAS to be him eatting fried chicken. And make an alternate costume of him with a fro. Instant win right there. Got nothing on Conan o Lucas costume!
*Hacks Brawl to make necessary changes*

Am I high tier now?
 

Conti

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Yeah, I think Mario shud move up to mid, maybe low mid, but atleast mid... i honestly think Lucas and Sonic also need to go up aswell (not ness im sry)... thats my opinion
 

PKNintendo

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I actually think Mario is better than Lucas, but thats me though...

Mario can leave low tier if they ban D3 infinite.

Edit:

He said Ness and Lucas are better than Mario because they do better against G&W (debatable). Ness has his Fair, which barely ever beats G&W's Bair, longer range smashes except they're not cuz Mario's Fsmash is longer, a killing Bthrow even though Mario also has one of those as well, and his...PKT...2. That's why he's better than Mario...I guess?

1. While it's true the Fair rarely beats the bair, it's still a great option.
2. Mario's Fsmash is not longer, Ness Fsmash has more range.
3. Mario's backthrow is crap (for killing) in Brawl, with proper DI, it won't kill fresh until well over 150%
4. PKT is an excellent move.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211169

Insulting it, is like insulting Flood.

While I think AA was off on some points (who cares if Ness fsmash has more range, Mario's Fsmash>>>Ness' by far)
so were you Matador.
 

HeroMystic

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The infinite is not what is keeping Mario in low tier, it's underestimation by the general community. DK and Bowser has an even worse infinite and they're not low tier.

Mario will make it to mid tier.
 

PKNintendo

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The infinite is not what is keeping Mario in low tier, it's underestimation by the general community. DK and Bowser has an even worse infinite and they're not low tier.

Mario will make it to mid tier.
But, aren't you forgetting Bowser's multiple grab game's on characters, and DK's... Being DK.
I sorta see your point but DK will never go below mid.
 

Donkey Bong

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PK fire is way worse than fireball, its got those 10 years of lag behind it, and its not good as an approaching tool since it pushes the EB boys backwards

i kind of hope mario stays in the low tier list though, i use him for low tier tourneys :p
 
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