Doomed to low tier?

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

The new tier lists don't have a bottom tier. They have top, high, mid, and low. Im pretty shure mario is in the bottom of mid right now. I have a feeling that captain falcon and gannon will move higher in low tier, jiggs will move higher, possibly to mid tier taking mario's place. Mario isn't that good of a character. He should belong in mid mid tier with a propper meta game.

 

[PKNintendo]

PK fire is way worse than fireball, its got those 10 years of lag behind it, and its not good as an approaching tool since it pushes the EB boys backwards

i kind of hope mario stays in the low tier list though, i use him for low tier tourneys

*Facepalm to headesk combo.*

I don't care about Lucas' but treat Ness PKF with respect. And please stop saying the EB boys. Lucas isn't from Earthbound.

The new tier lists don't have a bottom tier. They have top, high, mid, and low. Im pretty shure mario is in the bottom of mid right now. I have a feeling that captain falcon and gannon will move higher in low tier, jiggs will move higher, possibly to mid tier taking mario's place. Mario isn't that good of a character. He should belong in mid mid tier with a propper meta game.

What?

 

[PKNintendo]

You're stupid. Lucas and Ness are trash. Yoshi is the only low tier who can even dream of getting ahead of Mario.

Im sigging that.

Mario will undoubtedly make mid. Ask any SBR member. They will say that Mario is a middle tier character. Anybody who is in the SBR that doesn't say that shouldn't be in there in the first place.

Lucas and Ness are trash because:

1) They have horrible recoveries. PKT2 really isn't that good. Lucas has good recovery. Do some research.
2) Killing is hard It is not.
3) Damage racking is hard It isn't again

They have a lot of things against them. Their only good thing is that they have a decent projectile games. With Ness, his Fair is pretty good, but other than that, trash. Ness and Lucas are trash.

That said, they can still be good. Trash characters can be made good (like that PT mainer who is really godly. I forget his name).

Mario and Yoshi will be the two low tiers who make it to middle in the next tier list.

Your posts are filled with so much fail. Frankly, your an idiot.

 

[Judge Judy]

Well, at this point most of us agree that Mario is mid tier material.

 

[HeroMystic]

I actually really don't care about what tier Mario is in, it's just that the people who judge which placement Mario will be in, usually has no idea what Mario is all about, nor his techniques.

That's really the only reason why I discuss Mario's placement.

 

[PKNintendo]

I actually really don't care about what tier Mario is in, it's just that the people who judge which placement Mario will be in, usually has no idea what Mario is all about, nor his techniques.

That's really the only reason why I discuss Mario's placement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqMhU64HMUA&feature=related

 

[Ray/Boshi]

Mario will be wherever the player using him puts him. Same with every character in the game. Maybe it's just me. I could care less who gets placed where, let alone sitting down discussing a endless debate on this an that, and that and this on who is "Statistically better" on paper. End result only equal out to 40% of the actual battle.

For the sake of the topic. Mario will be Middle Tier most probably.

 

[Kanzaki]

To be honest, I want Mario to stay low tier, so I can own low tier tourney's... but I believe he's too good to be low tier and should be in mid.

 

[chandy]

Seriously Tiers don't matter. Any character can be good if u practice well with him. Mario excels in gimping his cape, fludd and fair were made for gimping. If only Mario's recovery took him a bit further it would make Mario mid tier for sure. But u can't change his moves so his position in mid tier is debatable. But seriously me being a Link mainer, I don't think Link's a bad character at all just because of his tier placing, many people play very well with him and personally I win more than half my matches with Link. What I'm trying to say is Mario is a well balanced character without any big flaws in his gameplay but if he doesn't manage to get into mid tier it doesn't matter. I still will regard him as one of the most useful characters in the game because of his awesum gimping.

 

[The Milk Monster]

OMGAH if the fludd squirted kool aid, one of his taunt HAS to be him eatting fried chicken. And make an alternate costume of him with a fro. Instant win right there. Got nothing on Conan o Lucas costume!

Omfg you should get in contact with SuperTexture0 off Youtube and see if he will make him!

 

[The Milk Monster]

To be honest, I want Mario to stay low tier, so I can own low tier tourney's... but I believe he's too good to be low tier and should be in mid.

CHYEAH!
Him and Ness all the way!

 

[SSBKNIGHT]

You kidding! Mario can't be that low.

 

[vato_break]

You're Stupid. Ness and lucas are trash.

 

[Dory]

ness and lucas arent trash >.>

and vato break youre in socal... i assumed youve seen oats (lucas) and vicegrip (ness) play before...
those two are just amazing...

 

[Kanzaki]

I've fought Vicegrip, such a hard fight, but exploiting Ness' weaknesses made me win ^^

 

[MBlaze]

Saying Mario, Lucas or Ness are trash is just idiocy, they're all good and if you would play experienced players of these characters then, you'd see what I mean..

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly, Mario isn't very good at all; he's definitely worse than both Ness and Lucas. Look at it from the perspective of a Mr. Game & Watch player; I'm not scared of any of the three of you because he definitely has an advantage on all three. However, you all have different things that can be problems for me.

Mario does better than Ness and Lucas BY FAR against G&W. Four words. Up-B out of Shield. That > G&W's Back air.

Mario also has D-throw combos from 0-30% and Up-smash out of shield on G&W at 105% and a better projectile for controlling the matchup. FLUDD can screw up G&W's spacing well. Mario is also harder for G&W to gimp. Mario in general is better than Ness and Lucas at handling G&W once he gets inside G&W's range due to having better, faster options.

Mario is better than Ness and Lucas because he has more options and is much better at staying safe.

Also, Mario CLEARLY does better against Marth, Wolf, Falco, and ROB than Ness and Lucas.

Marth laughs off Ness and Lucas with grab release combos and laughs off their approaches and camping with his superior speed. Mario actually can camp against Marth safely and has enough speed to get inside Marth's range. Mario also gimps Marth better.

Mario has U-tilt juggles on Wolf to about 40%, and he does better by far gimping Wolf and competing with Wolf's attack speed (meaning he stays safer in this matchup).

Mario handles Falco similarly to how he handles Wolf.

Mario can juggle ROB from 0-60 easily and messes up ROB's camping better than Ness and Lucas can with Cape and Fireballs. FLUDD also messes up ROB's recovery a lot.

 

[Matador]

Mario can leave low tier if they ban D3 infinite.

Edit:

He said Ness and Lucas are better than Mario because they do better against G&W (debatable). Ness has his Fair, which barely ever beats G&W's Bair, longer range smashes except they're not cuz Mario's Fsmash is longer, a killing Bthrow even though Mario also has one of those as well, and his...PKT...2. That's why he's better than Mario...I guess?

1. While it's true the Fair rarely beats the bair, it's still a great option.
2. Mario's Fsmash is not longer, Ness Fsmash has more range.
3. Mario's backthrow is crap (for killing) in Brawl, with proper DI, it won't kill fresh until well over 150%
4. PKT is an excellent move.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211169

Insulting it, is like insulting Flood.

While I think AA was off on some points (who cares if Ness fsmash has more range, Mario's Fsmash>>>Ness' by far)
so were you Matador.

The thought occurred to me that the infinite had little effect on those 5's placement. DK gets it worst and he's the highest of the 5, so I dunno if that point really holds much weight. It'll prolly affect his placement in the next list or in tourney results, but it probably wasn't really an issue with the current list, which is what's being discussed.

My point about Ness' Fair was that amazing-guy put so much emphasis on Ness being able to combat G&W in the air when he simply can't; that's a weakness in the matchup that Mario and Ness both share, with Ness having a slight edge.

A stutterstepped Fsmash? From what I've seen, it covers more range. Mario takes a huge step forward.

Mario Bthrow still kills, and is close to viable vs G&W since he's so light. Even then, nobody ever grabs a good G&W either way; he has too many options to deal with it.

I wasn't bashing PKT2. The fact that he brought it up as a reason for why Ness is better than Mario vs G&W is what I was attacking. I have my gripes about it as a reliable strategy, but they didn't surface there.

Edit: Since everyone decided to dignify amazing-guy's post with responses, I guess I'll add my 2 cents.

I believe Mario does better than Lucas and Ness vs G&W because he completely outspeeds him. Jab and Dsmash come out faster than all of G&W's options on the ground, and Fludd/upB OOS deal with all of his options in the air. He kills him early with Usmash, which is a huge plus, and competes with his range with a stutterstepped Fsmash. Mario's so much faster than him, that quite a few of his options are more viable as a result.

Uair/Nair/Dair OOS, for example, are great vs him.

 

[PKNintendo]

I've fought Vicegrip, such a hard fight, but exploiting Ness' weaknesses made me win ^^

Saying Mario, Lucas or Ness are trash is just idiocy, they're all good and if you would play experienced players of these characters then, you'd see what I mean..

Finally!

I've fought Vicegrip, such a hard fight, but exploiting Ness' weaknesses made me win ^^

Yeah jumping straight into Fludd a real tough fight.

Mario does better than Ness and Lucas BY FAR against G&W. Four words. Up-B out of Shield. That > G&W's Back air.
Ness fair can be used against G&W bairs. Up-B OOS is good, but do you seriously think they'll spam the bair against Mario? I don't care about Lucas but I think Ness does pretty **** good against G&W, it helps by alot, and don't forget Ness OOS options too. Nair won't work, but Ness Uair will clank with G&W bair IIRC


http://www.getyourtournament.com/multimedia/2008/11/ucla-monthly-vii-edrees-vs-leepuff_23.html

Edreeses does really well hear. Insulting the G&W here will make you look bad.

Mario also has D-throw combos from 0-30% and Up-smash out of shield on G&W and a better projectile for controlling the matchup. FLUDD can screw up G&W's spacing well. Mario is also harder for G&W to gimp. Mario in general is better than Ness and Lucas at handling G&W once he gets inside G&W's range due to having better, faster options.

Mario is better than Ness and Lucas because he has more options and is much better at staying safe.

Also, Mario CLEARLY does better against Marth-Yes. But 5%. 65-35 for Mario. 7-3 for Ness. Wolf Untrue, Ness is 45-55 disadvantage, while Mario's at a 4-6 disadvantage.
Falco, debatable
and ROB than Ness and Lucas. True.

And I don't main Lucas, so stop putting him in there!
Ness and Mario>Lucas by far.

 

[Matador]

I still don't agree with Marth vs Mario being that bad...

 

[PKNintendo]

The thought occurred to me that the infinite had little effect on those 5's placement. DK gets it worst and he's the highest of the 5, so I dunno if that point really holds much weight. It'll prolly affect his placement in the next list or in tourney results, but it probably wasn't really an issue with the current list, which is what's being discussed.
I agree with this.


My point about Ness' Fair was that amazing-guy put so much emphasis on Ness being able to combat G&W in the air when he simply can't; that's a weakness in the matchup that Mario and Ness both share, with Ness having a slight edge.

Also agree here, Ness fair isn't THAT good.


A stutterstepped Fsmash? From what I've seen, it covers more range. Mario takes a huge step forward.

Forgot about that oops. Doesn't matter, Mario's Fsmash>>>Ness'

Mario Bthrow still kills, and is close to viable vs G&W since he's so light. Even then, nobody ever grabs a good G&W either way; he has too many options to deal with it.
I mean't in general. Mario's backthrow is really weak.

I wasn't bashing PKT2. The fact that he brought it up as a reason for why Ness is better than Mario vs G&W is what I was attacking. I have my gripes about it as a reliable strategy, but they didn't surface there.

I also agree, but PKT2 does ridiculously well against G&W. 30% KO anyone?


Edit: Since everyone decided to dignify amazing-guy's post with responses, I guess I'll add my 2 cents.

I believe Mario does better than Lucas and Ness vs G&W because he completely outspeeds him. Jab and Dsmash come out faster than all of G&W's options on the ground, and Fludd/upB OOS deal with all of his options in the air. He kills him early with Usmash, which is a huge plus, and competes with his range with a stutterstepped Fsmash. Mario's so much faster than him, that quite a few of his options are more viable as a result.

Uair/Nair/Dair OOS, for example, are great vs him.


I will not defend Lucas because... I don't care about him that much.

10 I don't main Lucas.

I will not argue that Ness does so much better than Mario against G&W, but I will argue that he does well against him. While grabbing G&W is rare, it will happen eventually, it can kill as early as 90% near the edge. Stutterstepped Fsmash via Ness also works well on G&W. It isn't as glamorous as Mario's but it's a start. Ness aerials out of shield work incredibly well against G&W, even Ness dair. But the best aspect out of aerial's OOS for Ness has got to be the uair. It was quite the killer before, but even now, against a light character known as G&W, it works wonders. Brilliant even.

 

[PKNintendo]

You're Stupid. Ness and lucas are trash.

Quoting my glamorous sig eh?

I still don't agree with Marth vs Mario being that bad...

I also think this. (for Ness) with the discovery of EIDI, and the worst thing Marth doing is a grab release Fsmash, I don't think it's 3-7. But they won't believe any of it. You know that story...

 

[Matador]

I also think this. (for Ness) with the discovery of EIDI, and the worst thing Marth doing is a grab release Fsmash, I don't think it's 3-7. But they won't believe any of it. You know that story...

Indeed, I do. It's kind of hard to deny that matchup chart. They have like...3 matchups that aren't adv...which is quite sad.

Marth's not broken enough for that.

 

[HeroMystic]

Matador and I also don't believe Mario has a 65:35 D against Marth.

In fact I think the majority of ratios on their thread are pretty flawed, despite the good amount of information they have.

 

[Judge Judy]

I don't think Mario's match-up against Marth is that bad either; 65:35 in Marth's favor would mean that he's as hard as MK, and he clearly isn't.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

sigh...
i've read the entire thread.
and quite frankly, i wonder why we are talking about Lucas ness and mario.
mario is better than both of them, then ness, the lucas
even i know that lucas sucks.


Mario- Though he doesn't do well against Dedede and G&W, the rest of his matchups are pretty solid. G&W isn't even THAT bad. Dedede infinites but you don't have to get graphed (boss). he combos just as well or better than ness. lucas can't really combo atll that well in comparison to the two. he has a pretty solid spacing game (SH fireballs, bair, fludd, ftilt). a pretty good out of grab game (dthrow to stuff). and isn't all that bad at killing. his gimping potential is unheard of. the only bad thing is his recovery and that's still not that bad with proper DI. Mario will make mid tier.


Ness- eh... too many people have said things about ness already so i don't really think that i need to cover him. plus we have ness mains here.

Lucas- sigh... i'm actually one of the better lucas players. i know him in and out and i know that he isn't that good. he has a good ground game. his recovery is one of the best in the game. i don't know where the h*** all this he is easy to gimp stuff came from. he's not ness (on offense to ness). Zap jump + magnet pull + tether recovery + PKT2 is too good. PKT2 isn't even really needed due to his aerial mobility and his 2nd jump. he can edgeguard just about every character well (except G&W). the thing is... that's all he has. his nair dair are his main approaching tools. PK fire is for spacing. not for setting up kills like ness'. not for approaching. just spacing and building damage. pk fire does not have as much lag if you use it closer to the ground. idk where the notion that it has alot of lag from. all of his "combos" start with nair/dair. he can dtilt lock people to fsmash. he can dair to dtilt to fsmash if you miss the tech. has jab and ftilt are his main moves to punish with OoS. frame 2 jab is not better than up B OoS. his fsmash kills well and doesn't have that much lag. wait huh? falcos even, Rob's even, and wolf has 6:4. how does that make him do better against him? Lucas will sit in low tier. he has no tournament representation. he's about 4th to last. nobody plays him and he sucks.


mario=mid tier
ness=...maybe mid
lucas=low


haha i'm such a hypocrite.

 

[c0nd0r]

Finally!



Yeah jumping straight into Fludd a real tough fight.




Also, Mario CLEARLY does better against Marth-Yes. But 5%. 65-35 for Mario. 7-3 for Ness. Wolf Untrue, Ness is 45-55 disadvantage, while Mario's at a 4-6 disadvantage.
Falco, debatable
and ROB than Ness and Lucas. True.

And I don't main Lucas, so stop putting him in there!
Ness and Mario>Lucas by far.

why is everyone too scared to rate matchups more than 70:30?? I'd say the matchup is better than that, considering Ness doesnt have a single move besides arguable his jab that is better than any of marths, PLUS grab release ****

its more than a five (percent?) differentce, as matador said


Forget the mother boys, Id say mario is about as good or slightly better than them.However, if mario wants mid tier, he's going to bump others characters in to low according to statistical theory. Who then?? Ike? Shiek? Bowser? Plus he's going to have to do something about sonic and luigi, who both stand a MUCH better chance of rising on the next tier list. Thats what I'm trying to get accross here. I can only see yoshi and sonic rising above mario, and the only way mario would even keep his spot without moving down is to outperform BOTH the mother boys, which I dont see as a likely possibility.

 

[PKNintendo]

why is everyone too scared to rate matchups more than 70:30?? I'd say the matchup is better than that, considering Ness doesnt have a single move besides arguable his jab that is better than any of marths, PLUS grab release ****
Lol, you've got to be kidding me. I can't evem respond to that.


its more than a five (percent?) differentce, as matador said
He mean't that Marth didn't have a 65-35 vs Mario, and he doesn't have a 7-3 against Ness either.


Forget the mother boys, Id say mario is about as good or slightly better than them.However, if mario wants mid tier, he's going to bump others characters in to low according to statistical theory. Who then?? Ike? Shiek? Bowser? Plus he's going to have to do something about sonic and luigi, who both stand a MUCH better chance of rising on the next tier list. Thats what I'm trying to get accross here. I can only see yoshi and sonic rising above mario, and the only way mario would even keep his spot without moving down is to outperform BOTH the mother boys, which I dont see as a likely possibility.

stop saying Mother boys. While it's true that Ness and Mario aren't beating Ike,Sheik and Bowser results wise, they still have things over those characters don't have.

In the end, I actually think Mario and Ness can rise out of mid. Lucas will stay down there, and Yoshi and Sonic will rise. Both Ness and Mario have the potential, I just need to wait for what the SBR says about Ness.

 

[1048576]

I remember when Gimpyfish first got to playtest the demo...he thought Maio was top tier. Lol.

 

[Dory]

In the end, I actually think Mario and Ness can rise out of mid. and Yoshi and Sonic will rise.

AAAAYYYY!!!
Lets just make everyone rise tiers :D
yay for brawl.
-sarcasm
>.>

 

[PKNintendo]

I remember when Gimpyfish first got to playtest the demo...he thought Maio was top tier. Lol.

No he didn't. But your close, he said he was the best. But he said Fludd was useless...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=121329

Edit: Self owned. Best=Top tier!

Moron...

 

[HeroMystic]

I remember when Gimpyfish first got to playtest the demo...he thought Maio was top tier. Lol.

No. He said Mario went from "Good" to "Great".

Keep in mind the demo also had better hitstun, L-Cancel, and shield-stun.

 

[c0nd0r]

In the end, I actually think Mario and Ness can rise out of mid. Lucas will stay down there, and Yoshi and Sonic will rise. Both Ness and Mario have the potential, I just need to wait for what the SBR says about Ness.

Not everyone can rise, its all relative. But yeah, besides jab and dair, each move of marths is better than ness's

marth fair> ness fair
marth bair >ness bair
marth uair > ness uair
marth nair >ness nair
marth dair<ness dair
marth fsmash > ness fsmash
marth dsmash> ness dsmash
marth usmash> ness usmash (arguable, but marths is better IMO)
marth ftilt > ness ftilt
marth dtilt> ness dtilt
marth utilt >ness utilt (arguable, but I still think marths is better)
marth jab < ness jab
marth sideb >ness sideb
marth upb >ness upb
marth downb >ness down b
marth nuetral b >ness neutral b

oh an I failed to account for throws, which I conceit ness's are better.

 

[Judge Judy]

Not everyone can rise, its all relative. But yeah, besides jab and dair, each move of marths is better than ness's

marth fair> ness fair
marth bair >ness bair
marth uair > ness uair
marth nair >ness nair
marth dair<ness dair
marth fsmash > ness fsmash
marth dsmash> ness dsmash
marth usmash> ness usmash (arguable, but marths is better IMO)
marth ftilt > ness ftilt
marth dtilt> ness dtilt
marth utilt >ness utilt (arguable, but I still think marths is better)
marth jab < ness jab
marth sideb >ness sideb
marth upb >ness upb
marth downb >ness down b
marth nuetral b >ness neutral b

oh an I failed to account for throws, which I conceit ness's are better.

DO NOT, I REPEAT, DO NOT COMPARE MOVESETS LIKE THIS!

I doesn't matter whether or not I agree with you, but this is one of the worst ways to compare movesets.

 

[c0nd0r]

DO NOT, I REPEAT, DO NOT COMPARE MOVESETS LIKE THIS!

I doesn't matter whether or not I agree with you, but this is one of the worst ways to compare movesets.

marth also runs faster and has a faster horizontal airspeed and grab release stuff...

oh wait, ur right.

sometimes I just can't control the urge to rank stuffs!

 

[PKNintendo]

Not everyone can rise, its all relative. But yeah, besides jab and dair, each move of marths is better than ness's

marth fair> ness fair
marth bair >ness bair,
marth uair > ness uair
marth nair >ness nair
marth dair<ness dair
marth fsmash > ness fsmash
marth dsmash> ness dsmash
marth usmash> ness usmash (arguable, but marths is better IMO)
marth ftilt > ness ftilt
marth dtilt> ness dtilt
marth utilt >ness utilt (arguable, but I still think marths is better)
marth jab < ness jab
marth sideb >ness sideb
marth upb >ness upb
marth downb >ness down b
marth nuetral b >ness neutral b

oh an I failed to account for throws, which I conceit ness's are better.

It doesn't work that way bucko.
I tried countering all of that but I just couldn't do it. To much drivel. Dude, please stop, just stop.

 

[c0nd0r]

It doesn't work that way bucko.
I tried countering all of that but I just couldn't do it. To much drivel. Dude, please stop, just stop.

not saying it does, but its food for thougth. a character is the some of its parts, tho, and if a machine has better parts, its a better machine.

...and don't call me "bucko".

 

[Matador]

not saying it does, but its food for thougth. a character is the some of its parts, tho, and if a machine has better parts, its a better machine.

...and don't call me "bucko".

Sorry, but that's incorrect. Your analogy has many holes. Ness' Usmash and Marth's Usmash, for example, are used for completely different purposes. You can't conclude which is "better" based on what you think makes it better (it kills lol!!). The only way that you could decide whether or not characters are better by movesets are if each move is used for the exact same purpose, the characters have the same movement speed, shield size, recovery...all of that good stuff. There are too many variables between characters to simplify them that way.

Some guy tried to do the same thing a few weeks ago to explain why Ness' aerial game > Mario's...and it didn't fly then.

 

[PKNintendo]

Sorry, but that's incorrect. Your analogy has many holes. Ness' Usmash and Marth's Usmash, for example, are used for completely different purposes. You can't conclude which is "better" based on what you think makes it better (it kills lol!!). The only way that you could decide whether or not characters are better by movesets are if each move is used for the exact same purpose, the characters have the same movement speed, shield size, recovery...all of that good stuff. There are too many variables between characters to simplify them that way.

Some guy tried to do the same thing a few weeks ago to explain why Ness' aerial game > Mario's...and it didn't fly then.

And that guy was me. It doesn't work, I should know.

 

[Matt07]

Lol, Matador, I hope it wasn't as bad as the Luigi vs Mario debate you were in xD.

Hopefully the Ness debate had a better out come too.