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does the stalling rule EVER get enforced?

Zodiac

Smash Master
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Aug 10, 2005
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3,557
I've been to my fair share of tournaments, and I've seen a lot of players who will stall like a homo and will never get penalized for it even though its clearly included in the rules that you cant stall. And even when tournament organizers know about this they dont seem to care.

My question is, have any of you actually seen this rule enforced? Or do you think its a relic from the early days of competitive smash?
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
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Ehh, stalling never REALLY occurs at most events. There's plenty of camping, like Hbox vs Armada, ledge camping like M2K is known to do, but these are less stalling and more of using an advantageous position and keeping it. Rarely do players in Melee actively attempt to stall because of how difficult it truly is and how ineffective it is. No one would actively attempt to abuse Peach's wall bomber for 8 minutes due to the fact that it's nearly impossible to actually do that long and most stages wont allow for it. Same with Puff's Rising pound, which, though easier, isnt an infinite stall tactic in the first place and forces a loss of all jumps to do all the way through. Same goes for wobbling forever, it just isnt practical.

Considering most stages that could ever possibly allow for outright stalling have been banned(the last probably being Gun Camping on Corneria) I'd say it's sort of a relic of the past. It sort of goes along the lines of banning M2's Soul Stunner, something that was, until rather recently always put into the rules, but was actually impossible to do anyways, so it was pointless to still have it.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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What IS Mewtwo's soul stunner? lol

But yeah, I think the only forms of stalling left are Jiggs using rising pound very far off or beneath the stage and Peach wall-bombing.
 

the_CAM_factor

Smash Journeyman
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the ct smash ludus... or ecsu when im at school
i think theres a major difference between stalling and camping and people dont understand that.
imo camping is biding your time for a weakness and feeling out your opponent... while stalling is never engaging your opponent openly and watching the clock tick down.
 

Kal

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,973
Stalling shouldn't be banned because there's no explicit way to define it. Are we to disqualify players for abiding a rule they aren't even sure exists?

If I run away for 8 minutes with Fox, is that stalling? What if I run away for 7 minutes and 30 seconds, attack once, then run away? What if I laser while I run?
 

kevo

Smash Journeyman
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Personally, the only thing I would call "stalling" is really really obvious stuff. The line is murky, but it's ultimately the TO's job to decide. It should also be clear and obvious what a player is trying to do.

For example, Kal runs away with Fox for 8 minutes. Shame on his opponent for not catching him, no johns. That's not stalling. Fox is on the stage, you SHOULD be able to catch him. It should be addressed in case someone decides that playing Peach, hitting you with a turnip, then bashing her hip into the bottom of FD for 8 minutes is a good idea.
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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I'd prefer it if only the few specific stalls that are clearly defined and can actually be problematic were addressed, e.g. the Tichinde stall, wobbling stalls, etc.
 

Kal

Smash Champion
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Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,973
I'd prefer it if only the few specific stalls that are clearly defined and can actually be problematic were addressed, e.g. the Tichinde stall, wobbling stalls, etc.
This is how I view it. You don't need to wobble an opponent past 200% damage, so if you're doing so it's clearly stalling. The problem with something like this, though, is that eliminates the possible (though largely useless) strategy of lengthening the combo to increase the likelihood of a timeout. Since it's not a practical issue (e.g. I doubt any ICs player will need to worry about this in practice), it doesn't need to be addressed, but it makes for good theoretical discussion.

However, if you acknowledge the above strategy in theory, you have to decide on what percent makes it "stalling." Again, this just shows how difficult it is to define, let alone enforce, such a ban.
 

Varist

Smash Lord
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Stalling should be defined as extensively using a strategy or technique that makes a character virtually invulnerable to another character.

The definition above is a perfect, objective criteria for stalling. That is, the TO will make no "judgement calls". There will be a lot of reading, but each sentence is for the purpose of perfect interpretation of this definition.

It would be important to further, well, define this definition, term-by-term.
Extensively: It is unnecessary to set time parameters for what is extensive and what is not extensive. Only when use of the technique/strategy is required to catch up to the enemy will it be considered not extensive. All other instances are extensive use.
Strategy or Technique: Maneuvering oneself into a position where their character is "virtually invulnerable", and the execution of specific button commands, respectively.
Virtually: For all practical purposes within a competitive match.
Invulnerable: Unattackable, or attackable only with moves that, in a professional setting (these are tournaments after all), players without mental *********** are able to easily and impassively avoid.

It would also be important to provide Melee-specific examples for these general definitions, to further illustrate how they should interpreted and prove how, together, they form an objective criteria.

Extensively:
If a Jigglypuff with 4 stocks is Pounding under Dreamland, against a Ganondorf who has 3 stocks, then Jigglypuff is stalling. Realize that because Jigglypuff is winning, use of stalling techniques is not necessarily required; Jigglypuff could play well enough on the stage to continue to win against Ganondorf. Hence, were Jigglypuff to Pound under the stage, it would be stalling. Another example would be Peach attempting to recover with her hip stupidity. In that instance, use of her hip is required (her only option), and hence not stalling. Wobbling past the kill% for the most durable character on the largest stage is stalling, as wobbling past that point is not required, and is doing nothing to catch the IC player "up to" their enemy.

If a Jigglypuff with 3 stocks is Pounding under Dreamland, against a Ganondorf with 4 stocks, then Jigglypuff is not stalling. Even if Jigglypuff Pounds until there is one minute on the clock, and comes above the stage and kills Ganondorf, puts percent on his next stock, and the game ends with Ganondorf as the loser, then Jigglypuff was not stalling. Realize that stalling is the removal of the opponent's ability to compete for the win. Because Ganon was winning by 1 stock while Jigglypuff stalled, his ability to compete for the win was not infringed, because he was already winning. He had finished competing when he brought Jigglypuff to 3 stocks and obtained the lead in the first place. When Jigglypuff stopped Pounding under the stage at the end of the match, and engaged Ganon, realize that Ganon was again competing for the win. He lost because he was outplayed fairly during the time Jigglypuff was back on the stage.

The only difference Jigglypuff made while Pounding was limiting the time Ganondorf would compete again to 1 minute, instead of perhaps the 2-3 minutes it would have otherwise taken to knock off Jigglypuff's 3 stocks normally. This is simply a strategy employed by Jigglypuff, not to take away Ganon's ability to compete, but to make the new amount of time that he did compete in much more critical.

Strategy or Technique:
Peach's hip crap, Puff's pound crap, etc. Realize that most stalling techniques are techniques which maintain the map position of your character for extended periods. They can be used for stalling because the player can put themselves in an unreachable position beforehand.

Virtually:
Picture Falco and Jigglypuff on Dreamland. Jigglypuff begins to Pound under the stage while in the lead. Falco can always drop down and damage Jigglypuff with something like a laser, but Falco will surely die. So although Jigglypuff is not literally invulnerable, Jigglypuff is virtually invulnerable. That is, the risk-reward is too skewed in favor of the Jigglypuff.

One might recognize this as the first potential area for subjectivity in the rules; one might say that playing defensively and spacing disjointed attacks against a character that cannot punish them is a risk-reward strategy skewed in favor of the defensive player.

"One" would be wrong. Realize that the only practical character with which to engage Jigglypuff would be another Jigglypuff. And that is the only instance where it is objectively practical to combat this "invulnerable technique" in a competitive setting. In other words, a Jigglypuff stalling under the stage is not in a virtually invulnerable state when facing another Jigglypuff, because both characters can reach the same map position with the same resources available to each, to claim the win competitively.

Invulnerable:
Picture a Jigglypuff Pounding in the air, high above Dreamland. A Peach is Jigglypuff's combatant. Jigglypuff is in a position that Peach's hitboxes cannot reach; Jigglypuff is invulnerable. Furthermore, Jigglypuff is using a technique to maintain this out-of-reach map position. Jigglypuff is stalling. Realize that because Peach could pluck a turnip, double-jump into the air, and throw it up at Jigglypuff, because Jigglypuff can simply nudge their position to the left or right to avoid the projectile, they are still "invulnerable".

This is the only real area where subjectivity can invade the definition of what stalling is. You must assume that it is easy for the stalling player to avoid the unreliable or projectile-based hitboxes of an enemy. But because this is a rule enforced in tournament setting, the "professional" or "good player" threshold exists. It is stated that, "players are responsible for knowledge of their character to avoid breaking the rules". This was a clause added mainly to illustrate that accidental activation of a glitch by a player was still a violation of the rules; they are responsible for knowing their character well enough to avoid executing button commands that active glitches.

In the instance of stalling, the stalling player is responsible for simple movement of their character. Just because a Peach player *could* float below DL and hit your Jigglypuff with their turnip, or *could* jump up and fling a turnip at your hovering Jigglypuff, doesn't mean that if Jigglypuff gets hit, that she was not in an "invulnerable" state. Jigglypuff was still virtually invulnerable.

-----

An afterthought on parameters of extensiveness. Consider that Falco can jump higher than any other character. Consider that multiple times in a match, Falco will jump into a region unreachable by certain characters. Realize that this does not mean that Falco is stalling. Even if Falco, say, airdodges up, or firebirds up, after reaching the peak of his jump, it does not mean that Falco is "maintaining an invulnerable position, and hence stalling". Even if he camps platforms and jumps out of the reach of your character multiple times, he is not stalling.

The reason for this: the ability to move in this game will naturally place you out of the reach of another character; the mechanics of the game also allow your opponent's character to move; therefore, your opponent can come within range of your own character; finally, your ability to move out of the range of your opponent's character is limited by the game itself. Because the game imposes direct limits on how long you can escape into an invulnerable position after certain actions, these situations do not constitute stalling. Although common sense, it would still be important to explain a situation for the sake of final, perfect clarification.

You can run to the other end of Final Destination, which would be, say, an "invulnerable" position to a Marth. But Marth can approach and put himself within range to make you vulnerable. You can take further action, and leap out into the air, off of FD, away from Marth. Marth can also leap into the air. Assume you are Fox. You can take further action to reach an invulnerable position by using side-B in the direction away from Marth. Realize that the game forces a limit: you will fall to your death and die, or hit a blastline. At the time when you can reach an invulnerable position with Fox against Marth on FD, the game has limited you and your "stalling" has ended. You have died and your positional invulnerability is replaced by spawning invincibility.

When you jump as Falco, the game imposes a direct limit. You are forced to reach a peak and come down again, into a vulnerable position, before you may reach your invulnerable position again.

-----

So, finally, to create a "tournament rule":

Stalling in a tournament match is prohibited. Stalling includes:
  • Maintaining any map position not on or immediately above the stage via stalling techniques, when in possession of a stock/percent lead (null when both players are using the same character).
  • Using an inescapable technique to damage your opponent past the 300% threshold (null when waiting for PS to return to its default layout).
  • "Stalling Techniques" include:
    -Peach Bomber
    -Wobbling
    -Blizzobbling
    -Rising Pound
    -(etc.)
 

Kal

Smash Champion
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Dec 21, 2004
Messages
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I'm headed to sleep, so I can't write a full response to this right now, Varist, but I will do so later. I think a few things which are glaringly obvious:

Calling your definition "good" or "fair" is one thing. Calling it objective is something entirely different. All four of your terms within the definition are very open to interpretation.

You cite examples for how to "objectively interpret" these ideas. Such an idea seems absurd to me. Interpretation, in its very essence, is subjective. Otherwise it would not be interpretation.

You then cite examples where a strategy is fair, so long as you're not winning. This also seems absurd to me. If a strategy should be banned, it should be banned, but I don't see whether an opponent is winning to be relevant.

I don't have much else to say right now, but the point I'm making here is that, since none of the things you've defined are really discrete (e.g. a specific technique), it is impossible to make rules that do not have subjective interpretation. This doesn't invalidate the rules or make them less valuable (though I think any notion of banning stalling is absolutely absurd, since, as I've explained, it's up to the TO to interpret whatever arbitrary qualifications you have made for what is "truly" stalling). I'm simply making the case that the rules you've specified still are subjective.

Though, having read the actual boxed part at the end, I should perhaps rescind my statement. The rules mentioned in this box are, as far as I can tell, pretty objective.
 

Varist

Smash Lord
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I agree that the specific examples, and the terms I defined, are of course very open-ended. They are simply a guide for those to whom the rules' objectivity is not immediately apparent.

Half of the post is oriented towards putting the applications of the terms used in the definition, and also in the stalling rule, into a Melee perspective. Moreover, the post explains why common misinterpretations are invalid.

The rule is the consummation of the terms' collective interpretations, narrowed into something not open to interpretation.
 

stelzig

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This is how I view it. You don't need to wobble an opponent past 200% damage, so if you're doing so it's clearly stalling.
What if the ICs player is waiting for an obstacle on stadium to go down to make sure the opponent doesn't tech? :bee:
 

Bones0

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Or there is the situation of waiting for the FoD platforms to disappear into the ground before killing them because you prefer the flat layout. lol
 

Kal

Smash Champion
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Dec 21, 2004
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You're aware that you're not being forced to read this, right?
 

sulliman1

Smash Cadet
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Jan 9, 2011
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how many legal stages can peach effectively stall on? FoD and FD maybe, yoshi's against some characters?

stalling is a legitimate tactic as long as you plan to return to the stage at some point

i know it probably wouldn't be implemented out of traditionalism but what if time running out had negative consequences no matter if you were winning or losing at the time? like if time ran out you'd have to play rock paper scissors to determine a winner or simply have no winner and it counts as a tie in pools or elimination + a bye for the next round in bracket. eliminating the reward for trying to time out a match would eliminate playstyle that doesn't focus on winning, winning involves attacking and approaching usually (or you could mindgame them into SD'ing with your stalls lol)
 

Jonas

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Stalling only really includes situations in which one opponent can win by timeout without interacting directly with the other (ie Peach bomb stalling or Rising Pound (unless they have been confirmed to be beatable) etc.), or by removing his opponent's ability to interact with the game at all (ie ICs freeze glitch, wobbling indefinitely etc. Obviously doesn't include hitsun lol), in which cases the anti-stalling rule definitely needs to be enforced.

Other situations like YLink running away from and throwing projectiles at Jigglypuff (LOL!) or continuous ledge grabbing are totally legit and part of the game.
What IS Mewtwo's soul stunner? lol
A glitch that involves items, hence is totally unnecessary to ban in standard tournaments :p

What if the ICs player is waiting for an obstacle on stadium to go down to make sure the opponent doesn't tech? :bee:
Lol Tomber
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAtVUH6MSpc#t=8m15s
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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I only read the OP because there's a simple, upfront answer to this.


No. Anybody who tries to do the stuff that actually falls under the actual stalling rule (constant wall bombers, rising pound stalling) usually dies for it, and they are few and number. The people who actually "successfully stall" are usually patient people that sit in hard-to-reach places against people too scared and/or aren't creative enough to pull them out of said spots. (I mean really, how does Peach run from a character with upwards projectiles by floating around neutral pokemon stadium?)


While slow playing and flat out stalling would make some characters alot better (read: Samus), nobody in the community really does it. I'm not even going onto my soapbox of why; just straight up, people would rather leave themselves in the fray and die than hold leads.
 

Ghostbone

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You can't maintain height when 'stalling' with Jigglypuff's rising pound, it's a stupid tactic below the stage as you are going to kill yourself, above the stage it can slow your descent but your opponent's going to be able to hit you eventually.

I'd really like to know who Peach's side-b stall is actually viable against (that actually matters, I don't care if bowser can't do anything >.>)
Fox? Shine, Falco? Shine, Jigglypuff? lol, Sheik? Needles, back air, fair, anything really (Peach has so much lag) Marth? up-b if not anything else. CF? anything, he can recover afterwards since there'd be a wall.
It just seems so easily punishable, and not worth it.
 
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