Does a lack of "true combos" hurt Brawl?

[Ghostbone]

It can also create a tech for you when you think you're gonna land a hit but get hit instead. It's saved my *** a few times.

Teching random things is the best :D

I don't get why you think balance is a bad thing.

Eh? Me?

I'm neither for or against manual l-canceling really, but I will concede that it is bad game design.

 

[OkamiBW]

Still a worse idea to mash z than just light press L or R, since pressing z or full pressing L/R can let your opponent force a missed tech.

99% sure you can only tech with full shield (L/R, not Z)

 

[MonkUnit]

Brawl still has too little hit stun.

For the last ****ing time. Melee and brawl have the same hitstun. The only differences between melee and brawl hitstun is the fact that in brawl you can cancel the hitstun with an aerial or an airdodge.

 

[Jonas]

If you cancel the hitsun....

Doesn't that mean you get out of hitstun earlier ie have less hitstun?

The important thing is that a lot of people complain about the lack of true combos, not the lack of what we have technically defined as hitstun, although I guess it forces your opponent to commit to one of three different options (doing nothing, doing an aerial or airdodging), which opens up some follow-up options.

 

[Pierce7d]

Umm, Brawl definitely does have combos, lol. Melee has more and better combos, but if you don't know any combos in Brawl, you suck.

I prefer the game this way. I don't want to play Melee where Falco will shine my shield, and I have no options from blocking, except to read a grab and act. However, I still enjoy Melee tremendously. It's just not my preference of game to play.

I would probably play Melee if there was no L-Canceling, and all moves just automatically had half lag. I don't want to practice the arbitrary input, and I would be displeased if I messed it up and got punished. There are more important things that can be practiced, and it adds an unnecessary barrier. Consider this: More smart people would be good at Melee and it would still be fun as hell to watch if they didn't have to overcome the unnecessary barrier known as L-Cancelling. This would give you more diversity of top players, and create a more exciting metagame.

To be fair though, it's probably better that people are restricted from using Fox and Falco because of the skill barrier.

Anyways, characters in this game definitely do have combos. However, since the best characters in the game don't fall into everything like a brick, they have less combos.

Follow-ups are also extremely prevalent in Brawl. Even outside of true combos, Brawl's reset options are AMAZING. The fact that people just SUCK doesn't mean Brawl's engine is bad. Resets in this game are not only very fun to watch, but also fun to execute.

Ironically, Brawl reminds me of one of my other favorite fighters in terms of how the combo system works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2EKlsUZjqk

 

[Masmasher@]

Or he could have seen it was angled up and compensated for it, still not worth adding L canceling for over setting the base lag lower.

why not?

clearly mango switched from powershielding to angling his shield.
he didnt see it coming lmfao thats the entire point.
to punish the mis timing.
i mean its the close to the same concept of a just frame in any other fighting game.
when you time it you get a higher reward. in luckys case it wouldve been to continue the pressure on mango.
plently of games have combos where if you dont input on time there may be a chance for the opponent to react and counter/punish or you might have to go on defense.

 

[OkamiBW]

Lol, the Brawlers found something bad about Melee. Perhaps you should try and talk on topic. If you were to start talking about how L-canceling relates to the lack of hitstun hurting Brawl, then perhaps you'd be getting somewhere. Also, you guys act like if there was no L-canceling in Melee, that Melee would automatically be better than Brawl.

Spoiler

L-canceling aside, Melee is already better for competition and is oodles more fun to watch than the stupid 6 minute fights of "defensive spacing".

At any rate...let the on topic discussion about how Brawl is hurt by the lack of combos begin below this post, even though we've already beat the point to death and had it deflected by Brawlers talking about useless stuff like sales or the definition of opinions.

 

[Stev]

Eh? Me?

I'm neither for or against manual l-canceling really, but I will concede that it is bad game design.

That comment wasn't directed at you but rather at Red Ryu or other people saying it serves no purpose

 

[Excellence]

In what respect do you mean "hurt" Brawl?

 

[SpliziT]

I think there are a lot of combos on brawl, just harder to make them work. But when you do make them work it feels good and will most likely amaze other people too.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

why not?

clearly mango switched from powershielding to angling his shield.
he didnt see it coming lmfao thats the entire point.
to punish the mis timing.
i mean its the close to the same concept of a just frame in any other fighting game.
when you time it you get a higher reward. in luckys case it wouldve been to continue the pressure on mango.
plently of games have combos where if you dont input on time there may be a chance for the opponent to react and counter/punish or you might have to go on defense.

There was a good wait for him to see him angling his shield up, he could have reacted easily.

It's pointless, mistiming is part of it but it's not worth it for the minimal depth it adds compared to the huge amount of accessibility Melee loses.

I've already explained why I dislike L canceling, granted I play a character who mostly float cancels but that's not the point, at this point I don't see this resolving either way.

Lol, the Brawlers found something bad about Melee. Perhaps you should try and talk on topic. If you were to start talking about how L-canceling relates to the lack of hitstun hurting Brawl, then perhaps you'd be getting somewhere. Also, you guys act like if there was no L-canceling in Melee, that Melee would automatically be better than Brawl.

Spoiler

L-canceling aside, Melee is already better for competition and is oodles more fun to watch than the stupid 6 minute fights of "defensive spacing".

At any rate...let the on topic discussion about how Brawl is hurt by the lack of combos begin below this post, even though we've already beat the point to death and had it deflected by Brawlers talking about useless stuff like sales or the definition of opinions.

I'll wait for you to address my previous points. Or not be trying to half way bait people.

That comment wasn't directed at you but rather at Red Ryu or other people saying it serves no purpose

I couldn't really care for the aspects Masmasher and others pointed out. It's not worth it for those fact while the shield situation happens, I'm more willing to beleive someone messed up an L cancel and got punished because they got more lag.

This is what I have noticed watching Melee play and playing it myself. I still stand by my stance of it being a useless tech barrier. From a designer standpoint I find it to be a poor addition to the game with other better alternatives to it, like not having the input and cutting lag in half. Or even auto canceling would be nice since with that it's guaranteed that aerials would have to be used during certain frame windows to cancel, aka similar to float canceling.

It adds more tech skill to be used, but I think it takes focus from other aspects of the game and doesn't justify itself.

 

[OkamiBW]

Sales can mean that a game is more competitive because there are more players, you know a 16 man tournament is less competitive than a 256 player one. But for that you want to look at attendance. Sales imply what people liked about a game so they bought it. As I said with Smashchu, while you can't give a direct definitive reason it sold well you can make an educated guess as to why.

Pretty sure I already addressed this. I acknowledged that attendance is fine to look at but that sales don't determine or even necessarily correlate to a game's competitiveness. For example, Virtua Fighter having solid balance, but not being that well-known. And that sales can be strong, even though a game is not competitive...see Wii Sports and WiiFit.

If there's another argument that you wanted me to address, then I believe it's more than 50 posts back, and you'll have to quote it.

 

[Sliq]

To get back on topic, I think what hurts Brawl the most is the lack of effort put into making it by Nintendo.

D3 has a standing infinite? Ganon's fair is supposed to AC, but because of a coding error, it doesn't? The UP B ledge grab glitch?

2 of those are BASIC ****. Also, the shear imbalance of the frame data between characters is mind blowing.

It's pretty clear they didn't give a **** about balance or competition. And it shows.

 

[MonkUnit]

If you cancel the hitsun....

Doesn't that mean you get out of hitstun earlier ie have less hitstun?

The important thing is that a lot of people complain about the lack of true combos, not the lack of what we have technically defined as hitstun, although I guess it forces your opponent to commit to one of three different options (doing nothing, doing an aerial or airdodging), which opens up some follow-up options.

You still keep the momentum from the attack

To get back on topic, I think what hurts Brawl the most is the lack of effort put into making it by Nintendo.

D3 has a standing infinite? Ganon's fair is supposed to AC, but because of a coding error, it doesn't? The UP B ledge grab glitch?

2 of those are BASIC ****. Also, the shear imbalance of the frame data between characters is mind blowing.

It's pretty clear they didn't give a **** about balance or competition. And it shows.

what upb glitch?

 

[Phoxhound]

To get back on topic, I think what hurts Brawl the most is the lack of effort put into making it by Nintendo.

D3 has a standing infinite? Ganon's fair is supposed to AC, but because of a coding error, it doesn't? The UP B ledge grab glitch?

2 of those are BASIC ****. Also, the shear imbalance of the frame data between characters is mind blowing.

It's pretty clear they didn't give a **** about balance or competition. And it shows.

I think what hurts brawl the most is the that the competitive/hardcore community would rather complain about its shortcomings than delve into it the way they did with melee. It's a different game, clearly. Very different.

Melee had its fair share of imbalances and so does brawl. Really all fighting games have their share of imbalances; you can't cite imbalance as a reason that brawl isn't good because plenty of competitive fighting game players think Marvel vs. Capcom 2 is good and that game is heavily imbalanced.

I'll agree that brawl was meant to be more accessible to the standard gamer. But I don't think that means that it's not viable for hardcore level play at all. Techniques and strategies have evolved over time just like they did with melee and will continue to evolve. But a divided community won't help the game or the franchise grow any stronger. Smash is already off the MLG roster, and not because MLG thought smash "wasn't deep enough"; do we want competitive smash to really disappear from mainstream esports forever?

 

[Kenshinhan]

Most competitive players complain because they've spent long and hard on developing their prowess in a game like Melee, and to have a simplified, defensive, more-casual watered down version of it like Brawl, warrants their complaints; Especially when Melee was fine even with its fair share of imbalances.

We've seen players who were hardcore Melee'ist adapt and get used to the current paradigm that Brawl introduces, and since we've seen the best of the best, most hardcore Smashers are aware of what would be required of them to be a hardcore Brawler. (Mew2King is a quintessential example of Meleeist gone Brawler)

I suppose the bottom line-complaint of the hardcore Smashers is that, "Okay, you're going to dumb/slow the game down, but at the same time that you do that, you're going to ignore balancing of movesets and characters?" (ie: hitbox, priority and (omg port priority for real? ) frametime, KB advantage)

Balanced Brawl is a saving grace, as are the other Mod Brawls. If MLG would sanction a specific set of Mod code (I don't think they can do this legally anyway) then there may not even be a problem at all.

There should certainly be a hardcoded easy mode, medium mode, and hard mode in the same game of Smash so that way both sets of crowds are pleased. Where Easy mode would represent the overall floatiness and defensive tech that is the product of current Brawl, and Hard Mode unlocks/introduces more technical techniques to master, while also making moves more balanced based off of their frame data. (that is, Hitboxes, KB and DMG are balanced directly off frame data of the move)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Pretty sure I already addressed this. I acknowledged that attendance is fine to look at but that sales don't determine or even necessarily correlate to a game's competitiveness. For example, Virtua Fighter having solid balance, but not being that well-known. And that sales can be strong, even though a game is not competitive...see Wii Sports and WiiFit.

If there's another argument that you wanted me to address, then I believe it's more than 50 posts back, and you'll have to quote it.

You've blown off comments like the vids I posted, oh no the matches went longer than 3 mintues just like Peach vs Jiggs in Melee, in reference to people saying no combos, and M0nkUn1t's comment about hitstun.

To get back on topic, I think what hurts Brawl the most is the lack of effort put into making it by Nintendo.

D3 has a standing infinite? Ganon's fair is supposed to AC, but because of a coding error, it doesn't? The UP B ledge grab glitch?

2 of those are BASIC ****. Also, the shear imbalance of the frame data between characters is mind blowing.

It's pretty clear they didn't give a **** about balance or competition. And it shows.

Standing infinites, ok, three of the characters, Mario, Luigi, Samus, he can do it one doesn't work until KO%, Bowser can complete avoiding being grabbed, if Vex beating top DDDs when he played Bowser proved anything, so we're left with DK, so we're left with an infinite which it seems DK's have worked solely on not getting grabbed to make the MU better, but either way, sucks for them.

DDD probably gains some advantages he wouldn't have without the CG, pretty sure Lucario would not fear him as much if he didn't have it, the thing is he's still solid even without it, maybe not high tier like he is now but not way would he drop much at all. Bthrow is still 17% damage, his bair is amazing, Utilt is good, he has a bunch of ridiculous properties that make him good on his own.

He can CG Toon Link, Peach, and Diddy Kong but he still doesn't get an advantage on them, because they can deal with it a lot better than most characters can.

Still he has a CG, shame he isn't top tier even with it because he suffers in many other areas.

Then again Sheik and Ganon having Dthrow CG's in Melee was cool to when it decimated low tiers and changed match-ups affects the cast at large a lot more.

Also what are you talking about with an Up B glitch? If you mean hit him when he hits you with UpB that is because it gives no true hitstun. That's not a glitch, IDC is a glitch, that is not a glitch that's just poor hit stun on a move, that's like calling wave-dashing a glitch.

His Fair? Oh well it's not a bad move either way as a mix-up, even if Ganon as a whole is still bad compared to the cast.

 

[Masmasher@]

There was a good wait for him to see him angling his shield up, he could have reacted easily.

It's pointless, mistiming is part of it but it's not worth it for the minimal depth it adds compared to the huge amount of accessibility Melee loses.

I've already explained why I dislike L canceling, granted I play a character who mostly float cancels but that's not the point, at this point I don't see this resolving either way.



I'll wait for you to address my previous points. Or not be trying to half way bait people.



I couldn't really care for the aspects Masmasher and others pointed out. It's not worth it for those fact while the shield situation happens, I'm more willing to beleive someone messed up an L cancel and got punished because they got more lag.

This is what I have noticed watching Melee play and playing it myself. I still stand by my stance of it being a useless tech barrier. From a designer standpoint I find it to be a poor addition to the game with other better alternatives to it, like not having the input and cutting lag in half. Or even auto canceling would be nice since with that it's guaranteed that aerials would have to be used during certain frame windows to cancel, aka similar to float canceling.

It adds more tech skill to be used, but I think it takes focus from other aspects of the game and doesn't justify itself.

thats enitirely debatable
one could easily rationalize that lucky thought that mango was drop his shield.
it was running out fast.
besides the fact of underestimating mango being greedy lmfao and wanting the jv four he tried to anticipate.
having certain frame windows to reduce lag would be akin to restricting movement.
its easier to leave the exchange of offence and defense up to the people since all in all this game mas much more manuverablity than any other fighter.
as for accessiblity i hate to be a ****** but..".get better at it". if one plans to delve into the game this far then they should not complain about the higher end attachments onto it. remember they could still be playing with items lmfao. (end casual rant)

 

[Abel1994]

Define combo.

 

[Scufo]

To get back on topic, I think what hurts Brawl the most is the lack of effort put into making it by Nintendo.

D3 has a standing infinite? Ganon's fair is supposed to AC, but because of a coding error, it doesn't? The UP B ledge grab glitch?

2 of those are BASIC ****. Also, the shear imbalance of the frame data between characters is mind blowing.

It's pretty clear they didn't give a **** about balance or competition. And it shows.

"You can't let yourself get preoccupied with nothing but gameplay and balance details"
-Sakurai, about how he wasted all of Brawl's development resources on **** no one cares about like SSE and stickers.

 

[phi1ny3]

You still keep the momentum from the attack

what upb glitch?

I think he's referring to the phantom lag after certain chars' upBs.

 

[OkamiBW]

You've blown off comments like the vids I posted, oh no the matches went longer than 3 mintues just like Peach vs Jiggs in Melee, in reference to people saying no combos, and M0nkUn1t's comment about hitstun.

Okay. Your videos are examples of follow ups that have some legitimate combos. What is the point you're trying to make? That Brawl has some combos? Congrats. We already know that. I think we've moven past that and are onto how Brawl simply has less combos due to the lack of hitstun and how this affects the game. Frankly, I don't care that you posted a video with some Brawl combos. I'm just messing with you Brawlers about the videos being long and boring. You guys can like what you want, even if people like me prefer less camping.

For you, Red Ryu: Cookie.jpg

 

[TurnOneWrath]

Define combo.

A sequence of attacks where once the opponent is hit by one, the following hits are guaranteed.

http://www.option-select.com/strategy/article/?a=12#combo

 

[OkamiBW]

A sequence of attacks where once the opponent is hit by one, the following hits are guaranteed.

http://www.option-select.com/strategy/article/?a=12#combo

Fixed so the Brawl players can understand.

Spoiler

What a jerk I am.

 

[Signia]

You're a jerk Okami! Just like the rest of you who read my post many pages back which pretty much cleared everything up and then posted pages of adding nothing new to the topic with mostly offtopic BS and melee vs brawl.

 

[Masmasher@]

as a extra additive anyone that says combos are the production/programmer team playing the game for you...
think about how stupid that actually sounds

 

[Sliq]

Standing infinites, ok, three of the characters, Mario, Luigi, Samus, he can do it one doesn't work until KO%, Bowser can complete avoiding being grabbed, if Vex beating top DDDs when he played Bowser proved anything, so we're left with DK, so we're left with an infinite which it seems DK's have worked solely on not getting grabbed to make the MU better, but either way, sucks for them.

I don't care what character it works against, nor do I care if you can avoid it by VASTLY changing your strategy. The fact of the matter is Nintendo missed something this stupidly simple.

Also, I don't recall Vex beating any TOP D3's. I beat D3's when I played, too. Except they weren't very good.

DDD probably gains some advantages he wouldn't have without the CG, pretty sure Lucario would not fear him as much if he didn't have it, the thing is he's still solid even without it, maybe not high tier like he is now but not way would he drop much at all. Bthrow is still 17% damage, his bair is amazing, Utilt is good, he has a bunch of ridiculous properties that make him good on his own.

He can CG Toon Link, Peach, and Diddy Kong but he still doesn't get an advantage on them, because they can deal with it a lot better than most characters can.

Still he has a CG, shame he isn't top tier even with it because he suffers in many other areas.

I never mentioned anything about the CG.

Then again Sheik and Ganon having Dthrow CG's in Melee was cool to when it decimated low tiers and changed match-ups affects the cast at large a lot more.

Neither Ganon's nor Sheik's change grab was able to be buffered. Furthermore, opponents could DI in order to get away (i.e. to the edge) or in order to cross up and confuse the Sheik or Ganon player. When D3 down throws you, you are going forward.

Furthermore, shield grabbing in Melee would not happen against a competent opponent because of L canceling, as well as spacing. In Melee, if you hit Sheiks shield with ALMOST ANY aerial, assuming you l canceled it, you could avoid the grab. In Brawl, low tier characters have maybe 1, if any, aerial they can "safely" preform in order to avoid the grab.

The gameplay mechanics of Melee made it easier to avoid taking damage because of the vast amount of movement options, as well as how defense was not as strong as offensive, putting more emphasis on AVOIDING getting hit (especially with the prevalence of combos), and less emphasis on using your shield as your BEST OFFENSIVE MOVE.

It is infinitely easier to avoid being grabbed as Roy vs. Sheik than it is to avoid be grabbed as D3 by Bowser, IMO.

Plus, in the PAL version, Sheik does not have a CG. Why you hating on Europe?

Also what are you talking about with an Up B glitch? If you mean hit him when he hits you with UpB that is because it gives no true hitstun. That's not a glitch, IDC is a glitch, that is not a glitch that's just poor hit stun on a move, that's like calling wave-dashing a glitch.

First off, that is a huge balancing issue in and of itself; a ****ing recovery move that, when landed, has NO HITSTUN.

But no, that is not the Up B glitch I was referring to. I am referring to the fact that some characters, when they Up B and grab the edge, after they are back on the stage, if they land from the air, they incur the lag of the Up B. I know for certain this effects both Marth and Ganon, but I'm not sure who else. Regardless, it can be psuedo canceled by substituting the Up B lag with the lag of an aerial, but in Ganon's case, that isn't really a better option.

Horrible programming oversight as a result of a lack of giving a **** about the gameplay, and being more concerned with appealing to casuals and making a profit.

 

[Keitaro]

Wow Pierce, I didn't know your mindset about Brawl and Melee was on point with my own. Good stuff.

 

[Abel1994]

A sequence of attacks where once the opponent is hit by one, the following hits are guaranteed.

http://www.option-select.com/strategy/article/?a=12#combo

haha I was jk. Anyway im glad their isnt "true combo" in brawl because then we will start using the HP bar which will make brawl change in every way and the tier list will be diffrent and then some ****** will make a inf combo my like half the people in the game which will be no fun at all :o

and would you relly want to get into a 10 hit combo which will be guaranteed when you at 100%?

 

[Keitaro]

A sequence of attacks where once the opponent is hit by one, the following hits are guaranteed.

http://www.option-select.com/strategy/article/?a=12#combo

There clearly are multiple guaranteed combos in Brawl, just not nearly as much in Melee.

 

[Matt07]

I don't think a lack of "True Combo's" hurts Brawl per say, but it makes it less "entertaining" to watch for others. I'm not saying that a game also needs "True Combo's" for people to enjoy watching it, though.

I suck at arguing, lol.

 

[OkamiBW]

I want to redefine the word combo so that it applies better to Melee combos.

Combo
A guaranteed set of hits that the opponent cannot attack or air dodge out of given the DI.

Not a flawless definition, but better. Because I feel like most combos can be escaped at least in Melee, given different DI and smash DI.

 

[frostymm]

I believe Brawl definitely works better with combo's but not to such an excessive extent as Melee... Though Melee gave you the ability to use ridiculous combo's at a high speed because of L cancelling, most players only used that to spam one move across the stage which is kind of boring. And because Brawl doesn't have L cancelling though a bit slower it looks and feels a lot more fluid (At least for me) and a lot more moves are utilized. Cept of course with starfox characters.... Brawl+ was perfect and I miss it T.T

 

[Ghostbone]

most players only used that to spam one move across the stage which is kind of boring.

Whatever game you're talking about it definitely isn't melee...Players who spam one move definitely don't win.

And because Brawl doesn't have L cancelling though a bit slower it looks and feels a lot more fluid (At least for me) and a lot more moves are utilized.

O.O
Wut
Brawl is much less fluid than melee, melee offers you way more movement options, and attacks have less lag...
Though I guess brawl has buffering which would help.

 

[supersmash43]

I don't mind the lack of shield-stun in Brawl because less shield stun actually allows the game to be played more defensively and strategically. What I find annoying is the lack of hit stun because that makes it very difficult to punish your opponents with consecutive attacks. More importantly the lack of hit stun takes out much of the fun of fighting games in general which is the ability to combo your opponent when your opponent makes a mistake. The lack of hitstun makes it harder for skilled players to punish a noob is what truly disappoints me!

 

[OkamiBW]

Whatever game you're talking about it definitely isn't melee...Players who spam one move definitely don't win.

Checkers.

Spoiler

And you can punish people in Brawl by doing your guaranteed un-DI'able chain grabs.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't care what character it works against, nor do I care if you can avoid it by VASTLY changing your strategy. The fact of the matter is Nintendo missed something this stupidly simple.

Also, I don't recall Vex beating any TOP D3's. I beat D3's when I played, too. Except they weren't very good.

Well grabbing with sheik and doing the CG is pretty dang easy to do in Melee, reading DI is pretty simple. Shame Nintendo didn't see that either, half the stuff that happened grab wise in any smash game.

Ask him yourself, he has beaten top DDD's with Bowser. He dropped Bowser because he wasn't high tier like he though, at least that is what he told me in the BBR chat.

I never mentioned anything about the CG.

Well you talked about a simple infinite, which only really relates to King DDD's CG which is an infinite on certain characters, oh wait it's only a true infinite on 2 characters, situational on 1, and isn't a true infinite until 140% on the rest, KO percent.

Neither Ganon's nor Sheik's change grab was able to be buffered. Furthermore, opponents could DI in order to get away (i.e. to the edge) or in order to cross up and confuse the Sheik or Ganon player. When D3 down throws you, you are going forward.

Furthermore, shield grabbing in Melee would not happen against a competent opponent because of L canceling, as well as spacing. In Melee, if you hit Sheiks shield with ALMOST ANY aerial, assuming you l canceled it, you could avoid the grab. In Brawl, low tier characters have maybe 1, if any, aerial they can "safely" preform in order to avoid the grab.

The gameplay mechanics of Melee made it easier to avoid taking damage because of the vast amount of movement options, as well as how defense was not as strong as offensive, putting more emphasis on AVOIDING getting hit (especially with the prevalence of combos), and less emphasis on using your shield as your BEST OFFENSIVE MOVE.

It is infinitely easier to avoid being grabbed as Roy vs. Sheik than it is to avoid be grabbed as D3 by Bowser, IMO.

Plus, in the PAL version, Sheik does not have a CG. Why you hating on Europe?

Oh so the solution to avoid Sheik's CG is to go to the ledge where she hits you with her homo fair and gimps you, right...

You keep assuming that low tier have no safe options, ok what does Roy have that helps him keep safe from Sheik's options? Dtilt? Dancing Blade? Ftilt? he has little to no safety on his moves, even ones like Dtilt which is one of his best moves still isn't pure safety.

First off, that is a huge balancing issue in and of itself; a ****ing recovery move that, when landed, has NO HITSTUN.

But no, that is not the Up B glitch I was referring to. I am referring to the fact that some characters, when they Up B and grab the edge, after they are back on the stage, if they land from the air, they incur the lag of the Up B. I know for certain this effects both Marth and Ganon, but I'm not sure who else. Regardless, it can be psuedo canceled by substituting the Up B lag with the lag of an aerial, but in Ganon's case, that isn't really a better option.

Horrible programming oversight as a result of a lack of giving a **** about the gameplay, and being more concerned with appealing to casuals and making a profit.

So? Some moves have poor hitstun, sucks if his UpB is near Mario's Dtilt in terms of hitstun.

UpB glitch, ok when has that ever affected a match? Never seen it happen nor anyone comment about it, so why does this matter?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Though I guess brawl has buffering which would help.

DEAR GOD THIS.
This is my single greatest complaint with melee. 10 frames in brawl (and Brawl+, where it matters just as much) makes advanced techniques and even simple **** like SHFF(L?) aerial so much easier. When I first picked up melee, I had to get used to the timing for about 20 minutes before I could even consistently FHBair with Jiggs! Give Melee a buffer, and suddenly it is so much more fluid, at least from the control side. And not even 10 frames; 10 frames is a lot in melee. Maybe closer to 5.

 

[Ghostbone]

DEAR GOD THIS.
This is my single greatest complaint with melee. 10 frames in brawl (and Brawl+, where it matters just as much) makes advanced techniques and even simple **** like SHFF(L?) aerial so much easier. When I first picked up melee, I had to get used to the timing for about 20 minutes before I could even consistently FHBair with Jiggs! Give Melee a buffer, and suddenly it is so much more fluid, at least from the control side. And not even 10 frames; 10 frames is a lot in melee. Maybe closer to 5.

Have you tried Project M? You can set the buffer in that I believe, though I haven't tried changing the buffering.



Also in melee Sakurai did fix sheik's d-throw chain-grab in PAL at least.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Also in melee Sakurai did fix sheik's d-throw chain-grab in PAL at least.

He didn't fix it the first time.

I don't live in Europe so really doesn't change the fact us American's deal with her having a CG.