Doctor Who Mafia: Night 1 Begins! Deadline is set for the 31th at 0400.

[~ Gheb ~]

Playing defensive isn't scummy per se. It depends on the circumstances and in this case I don't see how it's scummy to be defensive at all. If like 3 or 4 people slap completely worthless cases at me I'm getting defensive - sorry for showing a 100% natural reaction. Am I supposed to ignore everything said about me just for the sake of not being defensive?

Pseudo-hunt moar, guys.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The distinction between anti-town and scummy is important in this case because I'm not advocating your lynch, or Gheb's. The distinction between Gheb and someone pro-town is that at deadline Gheb becomes a good choice.

I've been playing extremely pro-town: I've provoked discussion, have taken HARD stances and made plenty of contributions.

Start using your own heads, guys. It's not too much asked, I hope.

 

[Dr. Riddler]

a scumlist at this point would be premature for me since i have no strong scum suspicions. I really really want a DY lynch though. There are a bunch of people who I have my on though, especially Kuzmaru. Smarg, chuckie, dehf are som others.

@smarg, what was the rest of your point? I responded to everything.

Don't want gheb killed, starting to feel that people on his wagon are scummy.

 

[Dark Yoshi]

@Riddle

Why? Because we lied?

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Nabe, if you were actually scumhunting instead of setting up what is essentially a policy lynch, I'd have less of a problem with you.

So is it fair to say that you've read all my posts in the thread and have decided I'm not scumhunting? Because one post that was a response to another player's question is probably not a good meter for my scumhunting over the entire thread.

Why do you want me to spread around my reads? I'm hardly tunneling at this point; nobody else seems to be paying attention to what I'm saying so why is it making you so anxious?

I'm trying out that mystic "scumhunting" thing, you dig? Humour me; give me your opinion about everybody in the thread, thanks.

I've been playing extremely pro-town: I've provoked discussion, have taken HARD stances and made plenty of contributions.

Start using your own heads, guys. It's not too much asked, I hope.

You're absolutely right, you've done all the things you say you have.

You're also refusing to respond to people's questions because the answers are "obvious", i.e. you're refusing to be held accountable for the things that you say. This attitude shows up again in your argument with Hilt, where he makes a point and regardless of that point's validity, you don't bother to use a quote or series of quotes to illustrate why that's so.

Accountability is important and that's why I said before and say right now that I wouldn't mind you going at the end of the Day.

 

[The Pink Sasquatch]

Apologies for inactivity.

Back to Gheb: I point out in All-Stars that I pegged Gheb off meta I tell him this and he says "Yeah, that was one of the only times it actually happened" (#517) Despite earlier saying "[X1] clearly doesn't have the sources or knowledge to build a case on me based exclusively on my meta." (#477) A clear contradiction here which shows not only that Gheb lied, but once again an attempt to discredit my case, as opposed to merely responding to it or arguing against it. Funnily enough right after that we see him do it again "Uhm, yeah that whole thing is meta, except for the last paragraph which is probably the worst written in the history of SWF Mafia. Congrats." After Gheb finally accepts that the case is not purely meta, he describes it as poorly written, a terrible reason to disregard something (Need I bring up this post of TownGheb talking about Macman again?).

After this Gheb does a little list thing to explain everything, his number 1 is that he's not unhelpful (Unsubstantiated claim) and he then goes on to attack me for playing like Cello - something completely untrue which I have asked Gheb to prove/quote. He points out that his usefulness is shown from him introducing "legitimate concern" towards DY and hilt which to me equates to attacking the weakest player in the game and attacking Hilt because he unvoted, something you assume to be directly related to you laying a FoS on him. His second point is that he is most confrontational when town, something I've shown to be not true and he has done nothing but flatly deny. He asks me why confrontation is scummy, implying that my playstyle often creates confrontation, and thats a good thing. Well yes, certain types of confrontation can be pro-town, for example having strong disagreeing stances or opinions on game matters, however saying things like: "Learn to play", "He's trying to be an *****", "U DUMB?" are not. Gheb's point number three is saying that its OK to paint someone in a bad light, so long as its not a scummy one, this is fundamentally not true, its not in the town's interest for you to make someone look like an idiot and throw all their ideas out of the window because you judge them to be not good enough at the game.

tl;dr Lynch Gheb.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The problem is that you need to write a novel on why you think I'm scum and you still don't get it right.

My sanity kind of means something to me. I'm not going to bother responding to pointless walls of text all the time just to be dragged into 4 different arguments - all of them utterly pointless and misleading - that aren't resolved anyway because you guys don't even want to.

You. Are. NOT. Hunting. Scum.

You're looking for excuses to lynch me at all costs. Any argument you find is OK with you as long as you've got something against me. Otherwise you wouldn't lead this argument in circles for more than 5 pages straight [on 40ppp].

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I still think DY is scum and can die. Hilt could be scum but idk him too well, maybe he actually *is* like this.

I don't think both Nabe and X1 are such blatant sheeps to submerge me with anything they can come across. One of them is dumb, the other is probably scum trying to abuse the current momentum.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

I don't think both Nabe and X1 are such blatant sheeps to submerge me with anything they can come across. One of them is dumb, the other is probably scum trying to abuse the current momentum.

Please do one of the following two things (or both!):

• Demonstrate (through quotes) the posts wherein X1 or myself are "sheeps".
• Respond to my 565 by demonstrating (through quotes) that you have been holding yourself accountable for the things you say.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You claim that I hold myself not accountable ... why don't you demonstrate that first? It's not my job to prove you wrong, it's your job to back up your hypothesis.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

And to answer the first question: There is no particular post that shows it. Just the general course of action, of you two slowly building up momentum. I mean, the whole mess started from a dumb point with Hilt degenerating the whole thing into a circle-argument. I don't think it's coincidence that you were there to clean up the mess of his lacking arguments by putting me in the crossfire. You're basically abusing the anti-Gheb sentiment that's been floating around here and there and tried to make concrete cases out of it, to please the masses so to say

 

[The Pink Sasquatch]

Gheb what you are saying is just not true, I've not been "abusing the anti-Gheb sentiment" I created the anti-Gheb sentiments by pegging you as scum an building a case. I have in no way been sheeping, I built a case on my own and have been leading the wagon on you.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That's even worse.

Why don't you see it? You're putting your personal satisfaction of lynching me over the benefit of the town by lynching a townie.

 

[The Pink Sasquatch]

Gheb that is pathetic, do you have any solid reason to believe that I am lynching you because of personal satisfaction? No, there is none. I pegged you as scum and now I am going to get you lynched.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

At no point did you question yourself or your "reads". That alone is reason enough to assume that you only see what you want to see. If you get me lynched then you will be as clueless toMorrow as you are now, except that you wasted a day with ******** tunnel vision. And you'll have to justify being wrong - when this whole debate isn't even about finding scum anymore but solely about you wanting to be right.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

@Riddle

Why? Because we lied?

no becuz yur scummy as ****

gtfo

 

[smargaret]

Riddler: That's precisely my point. You responded to posts directed at you, then went poof. You're playing a very reactive game. You say you have reads/reasons to be suspicious of people; why aren't you pushing those people or sharing your information? Who exactly are you suspicious of on the Gheb wagon?

Nabe: Yes, I did read every single post you've made, and drew conclusions based on it.

What personal issue is there between X1 and Gheb? Because Gheb's recent sidestepping (#573) looks really scummy to me.

 

[Dr. Riddler]

no becuz yur scummy as ****

gtfo

^what he said

...

but nicer =D

ninjaaa ahhhh

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What personal issue is there between X1 and Gheb?

There is none.

 

[smargaret]

That's even worse.

Why don't you see it? You're putting your personal satisfaction of lynching me over the benefit of the town by lynching a townie.

So Gheb, why should Pink have any reason to get personal satisfaction out of lynching you?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Because - looking at his play so far - that's the only conclusion that makes sense.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Also, this is mainly in regards to X1. It doesn't seem like J has posted a lot.

 

[Kuzmaru]

Smar, why would you ask Gheb that? How would he know what Pink's intentions are?

 

[smargaret]

Because I was asking why Gheb thought Pink was putting his personal satisfaction above the good of the town, a statement he posted earlier today.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Smar, why would you ask Gheb that? How would he know what Pink's intentions are?

It was a legit question tbh

 

[Kuzmaru]

The amount of doors and options DY keeps himself open in EACH post is ridiculous. And conveniently it always goes along with what the majority wants.

Could you explain what doors and options he left open? I mean I can see he made himself an easy target due to lying. What else? Open our eyes, please.

Lynch All Liars is one of the few policy lynches I support, for very solid reasons. There's very, very, very few situations where lying as town ever helps.

Your "doc claims VT" only would work if the doc had been cop cleared and publically announced to be such AND there was an open setup meaning there could be no godfather/naive cop.

Hmmm, interesting. I'll try to keep that in mind. I had thought of that.

Also, I have seen that a doc had claimed Cop while getting very on point reads as well. I would like the idea of doing that but then I wouldn't want to out the cop accidentally. Sadly since you are town you can't really signal the town your real intentions so the rest of the town can get it except the scum.

Parts of posts with no color = us both agree'ing

We will

Vote: Dark Yoshi

based on the Lynch All Liars aspect, and based on that with your lying you went against the only confirmed townie we have.

I'd suggest applying more pressure to inactives if we haven't already. Dr. Riddler, is just an example. He has not posted a single time since we've begun. What's up with that?

Has RPSI been replaced? He asked for one earlier, so.....

He has posted a few times and has given strong stances. He is doing fine. Same with me, I had a hard time catching up. ;-;

DH falls under pro-town to lynch regardless of actually alignment. The question is do we want to risk lynching dumb instead of scum?

Do we want to keep dumb later on in the game? That is also something we should consider.

Tan, don't try to use my lie in FF6 as proof for how lies can ruin games.

1. That lie was an accident, this one isn't.

2. That lie cleared people, this lie traps scum. They're not going to have the same effect

Why not? Wouldn't that be a lie within a lie? "Oh lies don't ruin games" when they can?

Hida - can we agree to a policy of LAL with the exception of me who can lie at will? I can assure I'll lie in towns favour.

I wouldn't agree to LAL one person and not the other. It's unfair. Assure? We can't know for sure ourselves. Honestly, I find it when people use alot of gambits, they make it hard for me to believe them when they are trying to convince me.

Although, one time I caught someone in a lie "He's town" (while he was voting him) and I lynched him. He was town. ;-; Gah, I thought I had him for lying.

So, even though we see someone has lied, we for sure think they are scum for lying. Then we notice they were town.

Basically, if you lie and are caught, you might as well be scum*.

*Meaning that you would seem soooo scummy and it would seem very right to lynch you, but even if town you wouldn't be able to give yourself good credit.

I think Lying = Discredit. So you are town with bad credit.

If you have bad credit, sorry we can't take you.

...

There's extremely few situations that lying ever helps town in, and they're almost always such rare outlying situations that they're not worth considering and the benefits should be obvious. By removing the Lynch All Liars policy, you give scum a way to talk their way out of lying. By implementing it- anyone caught in a lie is scum- you enforce the key differentiation between town and scum, namely, that scum has to lie and town does not.

@ Dark Yoshi:
LAL needs to be declared? No, LAL is generally assumed by anyone moderately competent.

@ hidajiremi:

Lying about your role is idiotic. At very best, you mess up town's attempts to meta the setup, at worse you screw everything over.

Claiming is usually bad for town.

If you are a Vanilla Townie, your goal is to eat a night kill (NOT a lynch) to protect a power role (and lynch scum, of course). Claiming Vanilla Townie makes this impossible.

If you are a power role, your goal is to not get night killed (and find scum). Claiming your role gets you killed.

People usually forget about why claiming VT still hurts town.

Now, we've established that claiming your role hurts town. In what situation should you claim your role?

(A) To catch scum (cop claiming, doc claiming in lylo to tell who he protected successfully to clear them, etc)

(B) To keep yourself from being lynched.


So, when would you lie about your role? If you're volunteering the information, you're an idiot and people should realize you're either lying or scum with a safeclaim.

If you're in situation (A), lying is a terrible idea, obviously.

If you're in situation (B), lying is still useless. If you're a doc and claim VT, town is going to lynch you. If you're a VT and claim doc, the real doc will counterclaim, and you die.


The solution? Both VTs and PRs should realize that they have the right to refrain from answering questions about their roles, and should not claim unless a mislynch or catching scum depends on it, and in those situations, they should be truthful.


And keep in mind that if you, for some reason, claim VT when you are actually a power role, then try to claim a power role when you are on the chopping block, scum can counterclaim you and no one's going to believe you over the scum; and more importantly, you give scum a reason to do the exact same thing (i.e., you catch scum in a lie, and they say "I did it to help town!!").

I noticed you didn't reply to FF's post about LAL being situational as well. What do you have to say of this?

Nabe: Said "U scum?" and then asked me questions. odd vibe coming form him.

Why didn't you ask Nabe why he said "U scum?" then?

vote: kuzmaru

I would proxy ff's votes if i don't feel strongly about my own.

You vote me because you disagree with me, not because you feel that I am scummy. Then later on you give more reasons as to why you think I deserved your vote.

You then say I have been parroting and not giving content, which I have been [giving content]. I think you are trying to peg me as inactive, but also adding in the parroting reason to make it seem like that's not why you are on me.

I think you did this so you could have a “Bounce back from inactivity” stance.

Look at YT mafia. X1 was cop and he lied TWICE. First, he claimed to have a N0 guilty on swiss. This led to a bad reaction from kuz, which in turn led to a swiss lynch. Second, he claimed that he had information that the grape lady was town. He was just using this as a trap: Anybody who claimed it was scum trying to appear confirmed town.

...well, I'm assuming he was lying about these things

I'm assuming he was anti-town in that scenario?

That gamble was bad too, it seems. I haven't really read that game, just the last page. It seems that it worked because of Kuz reacting badly though. So, this would support your "noobscum trap" since X1's gambit did indeed net a reaction from noobscum, Kuz.

The posts in "Wheat" are from community. For reference Gheb, Gboy and I were all town in that game. I know it sucks there is loads of quotes but you need to see them to understand fully what I'm getting at.

In the first post, you are essentially calling me stupid, not only did you turn around me saying "You have failed to do this" into "You fail (Generally/at life/at this game)" which is quite a large jump (Gheb talks about synonyms here) but saying that someone "fails" is straight up discrediting them/painting them in a bad light. Something which you have explicitly said should not be done as town. Not only is it scummy to paint other players in a bad light, using it to discredit people who are attacking you makes you look even worse. You do exactly that to Dr. Riddler here after he says he likes my posts against you:
Now I'm gonna pull up a great example of TownGheb being helpful and pro-town from community.
Gheb's general attitude in this game is completely different, from community we see helpful and non-confrontational, he doesn't even just say the reason, he tried to get gord to understand it by walking him through the thought process. Once he explains it all he does so well and gives good reasons. In this game however, we see no helpful actions from Gheb, he is attacking strongly one of the weaker players, he makes unhelpful, confrontational and sarcastic/snarky/underhand posts. Gheb's defence against his meta is that this is a large game, something which is true, but does not explain why your playstyle would be drastically different. You have also tried to explain that your game play is different because community was full of newbies, when this game includes: Dark Horse, Kirbyoshi, Smargaret, th3kuzinator, Ranmaru, July, Terywj, Joey who are all newer/less experienced players, as well as DEHF, Hidajiermi and rPSI who are not DGames regulars either. Even if you lump the hydras together that is 8 playerslots out of 18, almost half of the game.

Now before anyone says "I don't believe in meta". Firstly if you think that then you're an idiot, secondly you can take all these points disregarding previous games. Gheb is unhelpful, Gheb is confrontational. Gheb attacks players and paints them in a bad light, not just generally but also does it defend himself against what they are saying or to discourage them from continuing attacking them. Gheb is super scum and should die toDay

Unvote
Vote: Gheb

I don't feel that Gheb is scum. I don't like his attitude, though. There are many things that I don't know, but since there are others they can also contribute to the table and would make scum hunting that much better.

Why? Because one person can't know everything from what they see. One person can see something that someone else doesn't, and so if one can benefit from another’s perspective thought.

Gheb has the “Well it’s so obvious I don’t even need to explain it” thing. Well, why would people be asking you questions if it were obvious knowledge?

ARE YOU SERIOUS GHEBRespond to this! Answer my original question! I asked what you found me scummy for. I later voted for Pythag. Respond to my comment, telling me what you found scummy about me when you called me scummy. It couldn't have been my vote or reasoning on pythag, because that hadn't taken place at the timeWho cares. Hypothetically, if three players in a game are inactive, should you not vote for one because it would be unfair since you aren't voting for all of them? Shut up Gheb. You're trying to play the hero too much, building your cases on me by you saving those "falsely accused". You did so with Smargaret and even she seemed uncomfortable with your defense of her. And now you're defending Pythag saying that I should go after someone else that's scummy? Really?

Unvote
Vote: Gheb

Answer my question.

Wouldn’t it be the same as if someone voted you with little reasoning and then later on gave more reasoning as to why they voted you / thought you were scummy?

Hilt, besides Gheb, who else do you think is scummy? 2 scumpicks please, and a brief explanations as to why they are scum/town/null.

lol

this had me dyin for some reason

also gheb thanks for the props in the results thread. much appreciated =D and no, I only went doc twice and almost lost a set because of it XD. I think to start playing doc again.

also I don't support a gheb lynch currently simply because we have much better options. And I like gheb being alive <3

What are the better options, and why?

I also agree. I’d rather lynch DY over Gheb.

Actually, I'm going to pause in my reread so I don't lose track of this. Note the bolded parts. Nabe knows I'm town, but still thinks I'm scummier than Pythag and a good lynch. This implies two things: 1, that Nabe knows my alignment (very much doubt there are any N0 cops here) and 2, that Nabe is willing to lynch me despite thinking that I'm town. This is followed by again his advocating a lynch on someone he doesn't think is scummy - namely, Gheb. Nabe is setting himself up to mislynch and have a ready-made excuse - "But I didn't think she was scummy! See, I said so!".

Unvote
Vote: Nabe

I think Nabe thinks you are town, because he said he saw you play the same way AS town before in another game.

I don't feel any strong town or scum reads from PM atm. If I had to pick I would say town, but again that would be with no strong reasoning behind it.

DY play still seems Scummy to me, but I have a feeling he's town.

Out of every Gheb stands out the most to me. He's been playing overly defensive, I don't see why town would play this way unless they are scum trying to look like town.

Everyone else I have no strong read atm, but if I had to guess I would say Doom is scum.

Heh, there isn’t anything wrong with defense if you compliment it with offense as well. So maybe you should be asking Gheb about his scumpicks.

Why wouldn’t town play that way? So you are so sure that only scum would play that way?

 

[Kuzmaru]

It was a legit question tbh

Ah, yeah. I have a little bit of re-reading to do. I noticed it was in reply to something you said of Pink's personal satisfaction, I just thought that only scum would have personal satisfaction in lynching someone, so why ask what the personal gain would be from them?

But I could see that it was in response to you.

I'm mostly re-read everything haha. (Still some stuff on this page)

 

[smargaret]

Kuzmaru: Why are you bringing up LAL again? Haven't we discussed this to death yet? Your WoT is full of things that have already been addressed (like the exchange between Nabe and me - he asked exactly that question, I responded. You only touched on the initial question, not the response - why not?)

 

[Kuzmaru]

I did a catch up post up to pg 8.

This was my catch up post from pg 8 - this page.

I felt I needed to put in my stances in there, since I'm trying to get in the fray as Chuckie says.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@Kuzmaru

DY was my top pick for the lynch before lying even became an issue. If you're reading through what happened earlier toDay again you might be able to see that his opinions are generally agreeable for the majority - that's not necessarily bad per se but considering the fact, that most of his "genuine" cases are weak as well I think he's largely trying to just please all sides as well as possible rather than sticking to his stances [which is also why he's been only going after common targets].

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11984361&postcount=205

This post is a good example that shows how he's trying to find agreement on both sides of the argument.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11984155&postcount=201
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11984344&postcount=204

I also realize that DY has generally tried to avoid conflict [which typically is the most effective source for healthy discussion - don't think that's coincidence!] not only for himself but generally when stances were about to conflict he tried to keep things clean instead of letting discussion flow:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11985184&postcount=238
Or way in the beginning where he answered a question not even meant for him [and clearly labeled accordingly] - a question that could've led to discussion.

The lying part actually came kind of late because I was convinced he's scum before that.

 

[Kuzmaru]

For example:

I would have replied to the Nabe and You thing, but I had to respond to other things before that. There is my thoughts on those situations.

 

[Kuzmaru]

EBWOP:

Last post was in response to Smargaret.

@Gheb:

Ah, ok. I agree with that, I know DY would agree blindly, I don't find why he would do that. (I have seen his play in previous games here)

Gheb, do you think his playstyle could be beneficial to town in some way?

I honestly don't know, I think it could be dangerous because he could blindly agree with possible scum and ride bandwagons on townies who could be saved.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't care about his play style.

A smart mafioso will make it look like his play is beneficial for the town, that's nothing out of the ordinary. On the contrary - would you expect a mafioso to play in a way that doesn't help town at all? And the last paragraph ... I don't know what to say. I never commit to a lynch unless I'm convinced somebody is scum. If somebody is town - even if his play is poor - I'm not going to lynch him for whatever reason. It's too easy for scum to lynch an "expendable" townie and get away with it.

 

[Chuckie]

v/la until Sunday for me =(

 

[Chuckie]

^it's kat btw

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Been busy today, highly doubt I'll have time to post. Tournament tomorrow, so I'll be there all day. So yeah, stuff from me Sunday.

 

[Praxis]

Sup guys, on a plane to San Diego for WGF, Edrees is meeting me there. More posts forthcoming post tournament.

 

[Dark Yoshi]

@Kuz

1. It doesn't show enough proof that lying can ruin town. If I had a reason to lie in FF6, then it would've been the same, except it isn't.

2. I suspected that Nabe would answer once I said I got odd vibes from him, to defend himself.

 

[Tandora]

@Riddle

Why? Because we lied?

Ok, I understand asking why someone feels the way they do about you, but why the leading question of "because we lied?" Why do YOU keep bringing it up? It's not necessary any more, imho, all it does is lead in circles.

Seriously, DY, why do you keep bringing back scummy behavior on yourself?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

all it does is lead in circles.

I kind of feel like somebody said something similar earlier this game -.-