Doctor Who Mafia: Night 1 Begins! Deadline is set for the 31th at 0400.

[Dark Yoshi]

PM, from my experience, LAL is declared early on in the game, not right after somebody lies.


THough scum have to lie, lying as town can have his benefits.

 

[hidajiremi]

Hida has unveiled himself to be a MYSTERY! Tanny must come in and comment on this as she is married to him =D Translation: Can Tanny plz give her analysis on Hida atm, specifically his latest posts where he couldn't feel any more generically safe in his reads if he tried.

Hmm, dunno about that. Just trying to be courteous with my accusations. And honestly, I don't have a strong feeling yet, beyond some general disquiet. Dark Yoshi's defense of his lying attitude seems remarkably like scummy backpedaling, but I'm more leery of Pythag right now.

 

[hidajiremi]

Lynch all liars is a terrible strategy, as demonstrated here, where you're trying to lynch me because I lied to set up a trap for scum.

But it was a bad trap. =/

 

[Dark Yoshi]

It was only bad because no one else thought about it

 

[hidajiremi]

THough scum have to lie, lying as town can have his benefits.

As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I happen to think that lying to keep scum from figuring out your role is a great idea. Anything else is questionable at best. And honestly, trying to trap noobscum was an awful plan--it hinged directly on too many unknown variables to be anything but a crapshoot. Your fervent defense of a bad plan just continues to make you look ever scummier.

 

[Swiss]

Hida - can we agree to a policy of LAL with the exception of me who can lie at will? I can assure I'll lie in towns favour.

 

[Tandora]

It was only bad because no one else thought about it

Either admit you were wrong or say you're scum so we can move onto something else.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Praxis (me).

Hilt did it in my game in BBR.

T___T

Lynch All Liars is one of the few policy lynches I support, for very solid reasons. There's very, very, very few situations where lying as town ever helps.

Your "doc claims VT" only would work if the doc had been cop cleared and publically announced to be such AND there was an open setup meaning there could be no godfather/naive cop.

Both of these are actions I'd expect from Praxis, and thus I'm taking them as a null-tell. Normally I'd consider these scummy BTW.

That's right, we've been together 12 years and he still cannot read me....

I also told him before the game started I was gonna totally tunnel him to see how badly he cracks.

VOTE HIDAJIREMI

Are you actually going to tunnel him? Please do, actually, I'm going to hold you to this read.

No but really I'm holding you responsible for asking him provoking questions and scutinizing his play if you've been playing together for 12 years or whatever. Otherwise there's not much excuse for this open buddying.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11989519&postcount=305

Does Smargaret always post empty husk game summaries like this? Like really I'm not getting anything substantive out of this and here analysis seems to contradict her vote choice. Like, earlier in the game he mentions how she thought Gheb was "misrepping" people and how she takes that has a scum tell, but then in this post she doesn't follow that stance up and all. If anything, wouldn't you vote the person who, ya know, is behaving in a way you consider a legitmate scumtell, not someone who just "has weak cases" but you also "like" (i.e. Pythag analysis and subsequent vote).

Also whats the deal with this DY attack? Blindly bandwagonning? What? Where and when did this happen? Are we playing the same game? Start backing up your stances.

With regards to this whole LAL issue, I'm not you all really understand the concept of LAL.

You lynch all liars who have lied in a manner that has either already or had a high propensity for harming the town. DY's trap does not fall into this category. Personally, I think it's relatively simple and he came out an revealed it was a trap before coming under major pressure. Basically, he was willing to contradict himself and SHOW that his stance was a farce without being pressured, in which case he may have just claimed "it was a trap" as an out to escape pressure for an otherwise questionable stance.

Either way, I don't see how his "lie" had large anti-town potential, and I'd love to hear how it does from any and all proponents of his lynch via LAL principle.

But it was a bad trap. =/

Oh hey General Holier than Thou. I wish I could win all my arguments just by saying "Yur wrong" but that doesn't tend to fly. Care to back that up?

As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I happen to think that lying to keep scum from figuring out your role is a great idea. Anything else is questionable at best. And honestly, trying to trap noobscum was an awful plan--it hinged directly on too many unknown variables to be anything but a crapshoot. Your fervent defense of a bad plan just continues to make you look ever scummier.

What unique benefit does lying to protect your role from scum offer than town over all other forms of lying? You need one btw if you're going to contend that "anything else is questionable at best". Also, remind me how trying to trap noobscum is an awful idea again? Last time I checked, noobscum and noobtown were tough to tell apart and simple conceptual trapping can be an easy way to test for whether or not they are being genuine in their stances. Oh, my bad I guess I forgot about "too many unknown variables". Man, I sure need to remember how dangerous all those nameless unknown variables are. No plan ever works ever because there are too many nameless unknown variables in mafia that will botch them. I love it when people appeal to nameless issues by just saying "they exist" but don't explain what the obstacles are. Pinnacle of logical analysis for sure.

^^^ dry and sarcastic as **** for a reason if you didn't catch it

lol @ Tandora saying "admit you're wrong" when DY hasn't faced and accusation other than blanket LAL.

 

[The Pink Sasquatch]

@Pink Sasquatch: What makes you think Hilt is Town? And with that in mind what do you think of Smar/Monster's push on Swiss/Hilt vs Gheb? Concerning the latter, how do you view Gheb's intentions here?

I have, lets say a sufficiently town vibe from Hilt in his #263. He's talking some good **** but is wrong about PM imo, I think PM is just dumb i.e his #247 he just looks like he is a lil salty that his ploy didn't work so he is all liek "it has lowered my opinion of you >:{" Smar is town likely because despite responding terribly to pressure (iirc) she made a good catch-up post and it looked town in a way I don't think Smar could pull off as scum. I shan't lie, I don't remember much in the way of hilt/gheb but I'm just about to do (sometime tonight) another re-read-post combo on 'ghebbycakes' so I'll include a little section of them just for you.

@Hilt: Do you know Pythag? Have you played with him before?

Gheb, what are the parallels?

hmm?

LAL is just what you tell players who don't know how to play this game/don't understand this game isn't it?

Either way LAL is a bad policy in the same way that you might think testing someones ability to follow orders is measured by asking them to jump, until you fail someone finding out they're in a wheelchair, or you find out they had orders from a higher power to the contrary or extra information drastically changing the circumstances. I won't talk about LAL again and I suggest you don't either

 

[Peach Monster]

LAL is just what you tell players who don't know how to play this game/don't understand this game isn't it?

Either way LAL is a bad policy in the same way that you might think testing someones ability to follow orders is measured by asking them to jump, until you fail someone finding out they're in a wheelchair, or you find out they had orders from a higher power to the contrary or extra information drastically changing the circumstances. I won't talk about LAL again and I suggest you don't either

PM, from my experience, LAL is declared early on in the game, not right after somebody lies.


THough scum have to lie, lying as town can have his benefits.

As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I happen to think that lying to keep scum from figuring out your role is a great idea. Anything else is questionable at best. And honestly, trying to trap noobscum was an awful plan--it hinged directly on too many unknown variables to be anything but a crapshoot. Your fervent defense of a bad plan just continues to make you look ever scummier.

...

Seriously, what is this, amateur hour? No, you're all a bunch of imbeciles, and if Adumb was playing in this game instead of modding it he'd be raging all over you. The Mafiascum boards would be laughing their butts off at you.

Many a noob in Brawl insist that rolling is a good general option even when pros tell them its not. I've had plenty insist to me that it works for them so they're going to keep doing it. Then I completely demolish them, of course, but some of them never break the habit, because they go back to playing with their bad friends and keep rolling. I feel like I'm talking with a pile of Brawl noobs insisting to me that rolling is great. >_<


http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Lynch_All_Liars

READ. THIS.


There's extremely few situations that lying ever helps town in, and they're almost always such rare outlying situations that they're not worth considering and the benefits should be obvious. By removing the Lynch All Liars policy, you give scum a way to talk their way out of lying. By implementing it- anyone caught in a lie is scum- you enforce the key differentiation between town and scum, namely, that scum has to lie and town does not.

@ Dark Yoshi:
LAL needs to be declared? No, LAL is generally assumed by anyone moderately competent.

@ hidajiremi:

Lying about your role is idiotic. At very best, you mess up town's attempts to meta the setup, at worse you screw everything over.

Claiming is usually bad for town.

If you are a Vanilla Townie, your goal is to eat a night kill (NOT a lynch) to protect a power role (and lynch scum, of course). Claiming Vanilla Townie makes this impossible.

If you are a power role, your goal is to not get night killed (and find scum). Claiming your role gets you killed.

People usually forget about why claiming VT still hurts town.

Now, we've established that claiming your role hurts town. In what situation should you claim your role?

(A) To catch scum (cop claiming, doc claiming in lylo to tell who he protected successfully to clear them, etc)

(B) To keep yourself from being lynched.


So, when would you lie about your role? If you're volunteering the information, you're an idiot and people should realize you're either lying or scum with a safeclaim.

If you're in situation (A), lying is a terrible idea, obviously.

If you're in situation (B), lying is still useless. If you're a doc and claim VT, town is going to lynch you. If you're a VT and claim doc, the real doc will counterclaim, and you die.


The solution? Both VTs and PRs should realize that they have the right to refrain from answering questions about their roles, and should not claim unless a mislynch or catching scum depends on it, and in those situations, they should be truthful.


And keep in mind that if you, for some reason, claim VT when you are actually a power role, then try to claim a power role when you are on the chopping block, scum can counterclaim you and no one's going to believe you over the scum; and more importantly, you give scum a reason to do the exact same thing (i.e., you catch scum in a lie, and they say "I did it to help town!!").



No.


Lynch all liars.

Stop being bad at this game.

 

[Peach Monster]

THough scum have to lie, lying as town can have his benefits.

Name some, that do not involve some ridiculously complex scenario.

I will then point out the myriad of downsides to lying in whatever situation you describe, and then you will have to explain to me why the benefits you pointed out outweigh the downsides. Which they won't.

 

[X1-12]

LAL is just what you tell players who don't know how to play this game/don't understand this game isn't it?

*Looks like PM*

Hurr Durr

 

[The Pink Sasquatch]

Roar I'm a sasquatch, this isn't the real me

*Looks like PM*

Hurr Durr

should be *looks at PM*

Hurr Durr

 

[Peach Monster]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2437927&sid=1858e52eed58c6a304f71a85c7fd67d4#p2437927

Oman, you might be right, but the thing is, the number of people who think they can benefit the town by lying drastically exceeds the number of situations where it's actually the right move. I mean, I've got a pretty long list of scenarios where I'd be willing to lie, but they're very specific. For example, in Choose Carefully Mafia, I claimed vanilla as bulletproof- it was late in the game, I knew there was no vig, the only way I could be proven to be lying would be for a scum to say 'Hey I tried to NK Fonz and it didn't work!' which is fine by me, and claiming my actual role would only have made it A) impossible that scum tried to kill me and failed and b) more likely that other players thought I was fakeclaiming. In fact, those are pretty general criteria: the following factors make lying more acceptable:

1. There is no possibility of you being proven a liar except by dying.
2. Anything that shows you to be lying also proves you to be protown.
3. There is little or no possibility of a counterclaim.

Note that even then, it's not a slam dunk: if you **** up your flavour claim, for instance, you're still likely to get lynched.

So a firm rule would result in better play from most people. Something like "Don't even think about lying as town until you have at least fifteen games under your belt" is a pretty good idea.

^^
good post from an experienced player on lying.

Basically, don't lie unless it's absolutely impossible for you to be caught in it without being confirmed town/you're already confirmed town by game mechanics.


Even in the example made by Fonz, it was only protown because there was an open setup (or the mechanics confirmed there was no vig somehow). If there was a vig or town rolecop he could've ended up getting mislynched for the lie.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

X1, if you're so convinced that I'm not playing like GhebTown based on meta you must've read your stuff. Since that's the case I find it hard to believe that you've missed these parallels. Otherwise it would've been a child's play to draw parallels between my interactions with Swords in Community Mafia and Dark Yoshi here as well as Roxy in Community and smarg here. It can't be missed.

Unless you didn't actually read through the game and just pulling pseudo-reasons out of your ***.

 

[The Pink Sasquatch]

X1, if you're so convinced that I'm not playing like GhebTown based on meta you must've read your stuff. Since that's the case I find it hard to believe that you've missed these parallels. Otherwise it would've been a child's play to draw parallels between my interactions with Swords in Community Mafia and Dark Yoshi here as well as Roxy in Community and smarg here. It can't be missed.

Unless you didn't actually read through the game and just pulling pseudo-reasons out of your ***.

You've been asked twice to point out these parallels, you have failed.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm not going to spoonfeed the game to you. If you can not see the obvious you are the one who fails. Also, I have just pointed the parallels themselves out and you still don't see it. Further proof that you didn't actually read at all and just pretend to know more than you actually do.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Alright here we go, catch up time.

 

[Chuckie]

It's Blue Monday today. This is statistically the most depressing day of the year! (over here)

@DEATH: What is your analysis of this D1 so far? Feels like you've just latched on to The Dark Yoshi; wii want to hear your thoughts about the whole Day.

@Kuzmaru: What is your analysis of this D1 so far? Feels like you've commented on a lot of policy stuffs like LAL, the FF Proxy stuffs, but it doesn't feel like you're getting stuck into the fray!

@Yoshi of Darkness: You never answered our question concerning smar! Also why did you expect to catch noobscum so easily out of curiosity?

@The Monster: can you explain your reads on DEHF atm? Also the tone in your last few posts scared us! When you mentioned "amateur hour", what was running through your mind here in relation to the people you were talking to? Do you feel these players in happy amateur hour had intentions leaning Town/Scum/simply Null?, Why? Also you should chop some of your heads off

@Terybly Teryble: could you answer our previous questions!

More stuff to come at some point... it's getting harder to find any free time =( work is getting a bit more intensive. I'm hoping Vanz can steer the Chuckookoo brain sometime soon.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

You still lied, and LAL is still in effect. :/

Is this the only reason you think we should lynch DH? It just looks like you're using it as an excuse for why he should die.

 

[The Pink Sasquatch]

Yeah Chuckie-Wuckie, that post isn't coming tonight =[ sowwy it super definitely will come tomorrow when I get home

 

[DtJ Hilt]

How are you currently viewing Pythag btw?

Dead weight.

And what in particular did you like about Smar's reasoning on Pythag?

Pythag - Weak cases are all you can get three pages into the actual game.

this

need Pythag to take a position on something.

and this

 

[DtJ Hilt]

*DY, not DH

 

[Tandora]

Are you actually going to tunnel him? Please do, actually, I'm going to hold you to this read.

No but really I'm holding you responsible for asking him provoking questions and scutinizing his play if you've been playing together for 12 years or whatever. Otherwise there's not much excuse for this open buddying.

No, no, no. We haven't played Mafia together for 12 years. We've been in a relationship since 1999. And yes, I'm gonna openly buddy him to make him happy to be in a forum mafia game so he'll play more. He usually feels picked on when he plays and gets whiny. I'm babying my husband and I have no doubt if he think I'm scummy or if someone gives good reasons on why they think I'm acting scummy he'll vote against me just as much as I would against him.

I think I've been good about asking him questions for when he's posted.

lol @ Tandora saying "admit you're wrong" when DY hasn't faced and accusation other than blanket LAL.

=p

 

[DtJ Hilt]

My FoS was enough to make him unvote, which makes me think that his stance was really weak to begin with. Pretty suspect imo. Hilt's currently my #2 suspect after Dark Yoshiscum.

I unvoted because my vote served no other purpose, not because the scary scary Gheb FoS'd me, lol. It was a vote meant mostly for pressure, as many are early game. Why else am I scummy, Gheb? If I'm your second highest suspect out of a game this large, there must be other reasons, right?

 

[Chuckie]

Hilt why aren't you voting for anyone atm?

@Pink Panther: Muchas Thnx

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Tery has a pet peeve for getting information out of inactives. I normally don't agree with it, but I still think Dr. Riddler is a target because of his very very low post count. I myself have a pet peeve with buddying. I just don't like buddying in mafia.

Also, while it's believing, it's also our priorities. We're trying to go with our pet peeve's a bit I guess.

I'm pretty sure this is what we answered. We're prioritizing different stuff. Inactivity vs. buddying.

Speaking of inactivity, since July has been replaced, and Dr. Riddler has been prodded, I'm not going to worry too much about that any longer, provided their activity increases.
With the holiday nearly over, I'm going to have to be toggling school, etc. so I will keep up with this to the best of my ability.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

And if you want examples of how lying helped town, look at Majora's Mask Mafia, lol. Town fake claimed like twice and it saved them for awhile. They weren't in a position to where they could have won, in all honesty. But it brought them closer to victory than they could have otherwise, and didn't really hurt them at all. That said, I don't know if I'm for LAL or not.

 

[Teryble Doom~]

I'm pretty sure this is what we answered. We're prioritizing different stuff. Inactivity vs. buddying.

Speaking of inactivity, since July has been replaced, and Dr. Riddler has been prodded, I'm not going to worry too much about that any longer, provided their activity increases.
With the holiday nearly over, I'm going to have to be toggling school, etc. so I will keep up with this to the best of my ability.

Dammit lol.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Hilt why aren't you voting for anyone atm?

Because I'm still rereading and commenting on what I feel I should comment on. When I'm done with it all, I'll vote.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

@Hilt: Do you know Pythag? Have you played with him before?

Nope. First time seeing him on the site, haha.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

That example was to mostly prove you town, nub.

Clearly, it didn't clear enough people or the wrong people since scum won hands down that game.

My face is a face of sorrow.
In reality, DH didn't "lie" in FFVI, he made a mistake. So it's not really relevant in this situation.

Peach Monster, you didn't mention my own post in 410, or for that matter, Tanny's post which contained the example I mentioned. Makes me sad. PM/Tanny scumteam? Swiss, let me know.

In general, this LAL business is a bit shallow. Dark Yoshi may certainly be scum, but not for a dumb lie like that.

Vote: Dark Yoshi
You scum? What do you think of the players who have voted you so far? W.R.T. their reasoning, but also their play thus far this game. Tell us who's scum as well, even if you already have. Get it all in one post to make reading easier, and tie it off with a ribbon.

Pythag voters: who are you even? One sec while I find the nearest votecount.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I think there was a ton of (and still are) pedantic arguments in lieu of scumhunting. Because how much can you scumhunt D1? All that we really can gauge (IMO) is reactions.

Gauging reactions is scum hunting. Why aren't you scum hunting. You've had four posts the entire game outside of confirmation. What have we gotten out of those four posts? You saying that it would be "very bad" if one or both of PM/Swiss are scum, a comment saying that voting for hydras at the slightest of scumminess is a-ok, and a something about there being "scum around smar".

Vote: Pythag

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

DY is L-2, correct me if I'm wrong.


Pythag voters: Smarg, Swiss and Hida. How you doing?

Smarg: What do you think of Dark Yoshi? Direct me to a post if you've already said what you think.

Swiss: Is the Pythag vote working out as planned? What do you think of the people on the DY wagon -- answer this after DY answers what I asked him. Who will you pursue toMorrow?

Hida: You're town, by my reckoning. How does that sit with you?

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Ninja'd obviously.

Hilt bro. What do you think of Sassycrotch, particularly the X1 half?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Uhh I might have to do a recheck on it because I haven't been looking into him too much.
I haven't gotten any scum vibes, nor strong town vibes, though. I think the argument between him and Gheb is pointless, though. If proof can't be given for the rest of town, he isn't going to get anywhere. And Gheb's right in that it's up to him to give proof, not the other way around.

 

[Pythag]

Sigh, sorry guys. I returned to school and have had to catch up on stuff. RL johns, whatever.
I'm going to reread.

 

[Dark Yoshi]

Gheb & Kat: Voted me for treading lightly on FF proxies. Legit points, had I actually been supporting it.

Pink: Voted me for being sure that swiss was town. Like kirb said, we just had a strong read on him.

DEHF: Voted me for lying, though he never explained how my lie was bad for town.

Nabe: Said "U scum?" and then asked me questions. odd vibe coming form him.

@mod request votecount

Need to see who I missed

 

[Pythag]

Pythag - Weak cases are all you can get three pages into the actual game. I like you you, also, have yet to really do anything. Note how Pythag has this long post about me/PM/Swiss and yet doesn't take a stance on any of it.

I have weak cases on you? I hadn't even voted on you, merely spectated that either you were scum or that scum was trying to paint you as mafia so that there would be a quick mar bandwagon.

you then volunteer my vote to FF, but say that you would also volunteer your vote to FF as people find you scummy. Then in the same post you vote for me (kinda nullifying giving your vote to FF) and not giving any more real reasons as for voting on me? Nice.

It's easy to pick apart speculative stuff. I had read through things and posted what I was bouncing around.

If I or PM were to flip scum - would you happily accept the other as town? I'll assume you will because you've said so. If you ever wish to change this belief you will have to explicitly state and explain it (prior to either of us dying).

If I or PM were to flip town, what would this lead you to think of the other? Considering this is statistically the most likely scenario, I find it dissapointing you do not even consider it. Would this be useful for PythagScum? It would. Having 'taken clear stances' on us - yet it is a stance that is rendered useless when one of us flips town - allowing you to then pressure and hopefully lynch the other based on our inevitable personality clash. Two townies dead and no stances breached - nice.

It's funny that you call my post a "very safe" and "tactical play". If it actually had been that…wouldn't you have not noticed it? Lol. The only thing I was guilty of is not committing to something that I wasn't sold on. Forgive me not throwing my vote around, especially when I'm still trying to process stuff. You and PM were the main focus of a lot of discussion up until this point. You were both driving the conversation, so naturally I'll have more of an opinion on you guys than Smar.
Given how you were playing and talking, I was felt fairly confident I would be able to view you guys as town with more caution given to you, Swiss, and that mafia were probably on the other discussion, around Smar. Going for the quick lynch, or maybe Smar was mafia, caught in her own mistake. I had yet to decide because I hadn't given that as much attention as I had given you and PM

DY - I think you're town. Vote Pythag, already this day has come down to a your-or-him situation.

Lol Swiss. Lead towns much?

Question, Pythag. The first post you quoted was directed at me. You quoted it with a "This". Does this imply that you "this-ing" that post was directed at me as well? Because you later said that you were going to need to read on a group of players that included me. So did you... just see the post, like what it said, and quote it? Or were you agreeing with Gheb on what he thought that I should do?

I was agreeing with what you were saying when I quoted you.

@everyone what are your thoughts at the lynch all liars approach dooms is suggesting?

are you serious? You intend to lie to town as town. Then how do we know you're town. easy, we don't.
Vote : Dark Yoshi

 

[Tandora]

Pythag, are you aware you put DY at L-1?

Are you okay with that?