Q&A Doc's Tips: A Little Mac Q&A Thread

[Viriquin]

So im still having an insanely hard time playing against Little mac. Been trying for the last 3 months to learn how to play against this guy. And the only advice people seem to give me is "throw him off the stage". Is there anyone who wouldn't mind helping me?

I think some typical anti-Mac advice would be to respect his space. As Son-In-Law said turnips could help you find an opening to approach. GET MAC IN THE AIR. Peach can really put pressure on Mac in the air and offstage. If he's counter-happy in the air try to bait that out and punish him. Don't try to challenge up-b from above mac when he's recovering.

I'd like some footage of you facing a Mac and see exactly what you're doing wrong.

 

[Ryusuta]

Get your tent, set it up on the ledge, smile, and shield. You're camping now. Be prepared to to spot dodge if he does a hail mary grab, or otherwise block the attack incoming and grab him out of shield, and back throw him off stage. You are now in control. Smarter Little Mac players will either inch towards you throwing ftilts and such looking to poke you off or get you to commit to punishing something that you can't punish, or take an early lead during the neutral game and FORCE you to come to them since you're already down a stock. If that happens you let them outplay you and you either have to outplay them right back or eat the L.

I have to call bull**** on this. EVERY SINGLE TIME I'VE EVER tried to shield grab a Mac, I block the move, but then he'll instantly go into his jab (or sometimes even his tilt) which will ALWAYS beat the shield grab.

You mention "outplaying." Perhaps give an example of that?

 

[Vincent21]

Well no yeah it's a frame one jab you have to shield grab DURING THE ANIMATION OF ENDLAG on the blocked attack. Or you will eat fists. This can be done best to dash attack (which is why it is a bad approach) which has great lag on it. This is possible on fsmash, but purposefully distant/whiffed fsmash is in fact a jab setup. Don't try with dtilt, that's safe. Rarely try with ftilt, if he's REALLY close.

Not to mention if you predict jabs... Just keep shielding. The last punch of jabs leaves you plenty of punish time.

This guy is not hard to punish. He has to work hard to stay safe.

As for outplaying, that's exactly what it sounds like. You play better than them. You position better than they do, you make more accurate reads, and you control the pace of the game. I mean, if you really wanted an example of outplaying someone you can just pick up any old tourney vid and the winner will probably provide an example. If you want one from me *shrug* I guess I'll check my replays?

 

[Mrawesome48]

I think some typical anti-Mac advice would be to respect his space. As Son-In-Law said turnips could help you find an opening to approach. GET MAC IN THE AIR. Peach can really put pressure on Mac in the air and offstage. If he's counter-happy in the air try to bait that out and punish him. Don't try to challenge up-b from above mac when he's recovering.

I'd like some footage of you facing a Mac and see exactly what you're doing wrong.

Currently atm im playing Rosalina. I have found near impossible to be able to grab him because getting into grab range is just too unsafe. I've tried to shield and punish but they just roll back out as soon as they dash. I just cant hit this guy.

I have to call bull**** on this. EVERY SINGLE TIME I'VE EVER tried to shield grab a Mac, I block the move, but then he'll instantly go into his jab (or sometimes even his tilt) which will ALWAYS beat the shield grab.

You mention "outplaying." Perhaps give an example of that?

This is the exact problem that I and a lot of people keep having. Shielding and punishing isn't working. This is a typical scenario. Lm->dash attacks, I shield, I go to punish with a shield or attack, Lm->has already rolled back. Lag on his dash attack is almost non-existant. I'm so sick of being told the only universal way to beat this guy is "To sit on the ledge, shield and throw him". This might have worked back in November when the game first came out and a lot of people were bad. But this doesn't work no more. Good Little macs go nowhere near the edge nowadays.

 

[Ryusuta]

Well no yeah it's a frame one jab you have to shield grab DURING THE ANIMATION OF ENDLAG on the blocked attack. Or you will eat fists. This can be done best to dash attack (which is why it is a bad approach) which has great lag on it. This is possible on fsmash, but purposefully distant/whiffed fsmash is in fact a jab setup. Don't try with dtilt, that's safe. Rarely try with ftilt, if he's REALLY close.

Not to mention if you predict jabs... Just keep shielding. The last punch of jabs leaves you plenty of punish time.

This guy is not hard to punish. He has to work hard to stay safe.

As for outplaying, that's exactly what it sounds like. You play better than them. You position better than they do, you make more accurate reads, and you control the pace of the game. I mean, if you really wanted an example of outplaying someone you can just pick up any old tourney vid and the winner will probably provide an example. If you want one from me *shrug* I guess I'll check my replays?

Pretty much, Mr. Awesome said everything I would have replied to this, comme ça:

This is the exact problem that I and a lot of people keep having. Shielding and punishing isn't working. This is a typical scenario. Lm->dash attacks, I shield, I go to punish with a shield or attack, Lm->has already rolled back. Lag on his dash attack is almost non-existant. I'm so sick of being told the only universal way to beat this guy is "To sit on the ledge, shield and throw him". This might have worked back in November when the game first came out and a lot of people were bad. But this doesn't work no more. Good Little macs go nowhere near the edge nowadays.

This is exactly it. Shield throwing DOES NOT WORK. Period. The only moves Mac would use on a shield are shield safe. And no, the answer isn't "Just keep shielding," Vincent. Are you joking? The more you shield, the more likely it is that you'll get shield poked or even possibly have the shield broken. Little Mac can last a lot longer than you.

And outplaying is just... that's not helpful at all. That's not real advice. Position better than they do how? Space better than they do how? That's really not useful.

 

[Vincent21]

This character isn't actually top tier... and I get punished all the time at events. I think the only thing I can truly tell you is to start looking for footage of really good Little Macs (Espy, Vex) and see matches where they get bodied and try to understand why. Maybe they're punishing things you're not, maybe you're not challenging moves the right way... I don't know what to tell you because I haven't seen your troubles occurring in live action. I can't gauge your spacing game on words; I gotta see the tapes. I can't tell whether it's an issue of punishing the wrong things or punishing too slowly if I can't see the attempted punished in real time...

If you're that in need of help let's get some footage, yeah? Drop in on the video thread the next time a Little Mac dun bops you and we can get technical.

 

[Ryusuta]

This character isn't actually top tier... and I get punished all the time at events. I think the only thing I can truly tell you is to start looking for footage of really good Little Macs (Espy, Vex) and see matches where they get bodied and try to understand why. Maybe they're punishing things you're not, maybe you're not challenging moves the right way... I don't know what to tell you because I haven't seen your troubles occurring in live action. I can't gauge your spacing game on words; I gotta see the tapes. I can't tell whether it's an issue of punishing the wrong things or punishing too slowly if I can't see the attempted punished in real time...

If you're that in need of help let's get some footage, yeah? Drop in on the video thread the next time a Little Mac dun bops you and we can get technical.

I suppose you're right. I've indeed seen videos on channels like Clash Tournaments with Macs getting beaten, but it's hard for me to know what to extrapolate from them, as sometimes even they seem to come down to making the right guesses and/or Mac whiffing his KO punch more than straight up outplaying.

Maybe we can go through some vids together and see what is happening to the Mac player. That would definitely be helpful to me. =)

 

[Vincent21]

Yeah, totally, and I'd be glad to help you! One of the reasons I came to this sight was to do more talking about match-ups this character has with other people and help them to understand why he's a legitimate pick and why people like Espy and Vex are not, in fact, merely insane.

I also notice your main is listed as Lucario, and that might be a start. Lucario has trouble being pressured in general because until aura+rage kicks in your slow, big frame-count moves don't command huge levels of respect until you're already worried about dying. There is a practicing Luc who pops his head into competitive impressions who swears the match-up is a lot better for Luc than I think it is, but I've not taken the time to arrange the game. Regardless, you could also talk to him to learn a lot about the match-up perhaps.

Steel is weak to fighting, after all >.>

 

[Ryusuta]

Yeah, totally, and I'd be glad to help you! One of the reasons I came to this sight was to do more talking about match-ups this character has with other people and help them to understand why he's a legitimate pick and why people like Espy and Vex are not, in fact, merely insane.

I also notice your main is listed as Lucario, and that might be a start. Lucario has trouble being pressured in general because until aura+rage kicks in your slow, big frame-count moves don't command huge levels of respect until you're already worried about dying. There is a practicing Luc who pops his head into competitive impressions who swears the match-up is a lot better for Luc than I think it is, but I've not taken the time to arrange the game. Regardless, you could also talk to him to learn a lot about the match-up perhaps.

Steel is weak to fighting, after all >.>

Heh.

Maybe we can play together sometime, even. If you have steam or Skype, feel free to look me up! I'm pretty much Ryusuta everywhere I go, so I'm easy to find. =)

 

[Bleezyy]

Sunday I went to this tournament I came second place BTW. (Yay) but I realised cf is somewhat of a issue even today I played online I was down 3 to 2 to a cf. I need some tips on fighting him.. Any advice ?

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

Sunday I went to this tournament I came second place BTW. (Yay) but I realised cf is somewhat of a issue even today I played online I was down 3 to 2 to a cf. I need some tips on fighting him.. Any advice ?

@ Bleezyy Merged your thread into the Q&A Thread. For basic questions and assistance on character matchups, you can always ask here.

 

[Bleezyy]

Okk thanks

 

[Vincent21]

Well a lot of Cpn Falcon's approaches are just dominated by ftilt and jabs. They'll beat out raw DA and Dash Grab. The REAL problem is you can never hit Falcon's shield without beating spaced pristinely. The only thing against HIM you have safe on shield is dtilt > dtilt really.

Its just a lot of turtling and making fake openings. Just doing things like purposefully throwing a distant fsmash to bait a DA entry or something that you can punish. You want him to commit to a dashing approach (since its a lot of his gameplan already) and murder him when he does.

 

[Bleezyy]

Well a lot of Cpn Falcon's approaches are just dominated by ftilt and jabs. They'll beat out raw DA and Dash Grab. The REAL problem is you can never hit Falcon's shield without beating spaced pristinely. The only thing against HIM you have safe on shield is dtilt > dtilt really.

Its just a lot of turtling and making fake openings. Just doing things like purposefully throwing a distant fsmash to bait a DA entry or something that you can punish. You want him to commit to a dashing approach (since its a lot of his gameplan already) and murder him when he does.

I did notice I caught him out of a dash attack with the dtilt out of a DA but i was too nervous to try it again BC I thought he would beat me out. I will try it on for glory and against some friends.

 

[Vincent21]

dtilt is super safe one shield. It's also important to remember if you whiff something, do not instinctly reach for shield or spot dodge. CF will punish both with extreme prejudice. If you think you have any ability to respond at all, hold jabs. Come out frame 1, and are the best way of protect yourself from non-disjointed punish moves.

 

[Bleezyy]

dtilt is super safe one shield. It's also important to remember if you whiff something, do not instinctly reach for shield or spot dodge. CF will punish both with extreme prejudice. If you think you have any ability to respond at all, hold jabs. Come out frame 1, and are the best way of protect yourself from non-disjointed punish moves.

I really got to give this a try cause you are so right about trying to dodge I got hit by so many raptor boost trying to spot dodge and roll .. Maybe if I just block or like u said just hold jab

 

[PHYTO-1]

I really got to give this a try cause you are so right about trying to dodge I got hit by so many raptor boost trying to spot dodge and roll .. Maybe if I just block or like u said just hold jab

yea brah its so good. i usually ftilt if they are somewhat further instead of jabbing. but i usually do fsmash whiff to ftilt or ftilt whiff to jab. pretty much whiffing is a good bait tactic because people think that mac's high powered smashes must have high cooldown too

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

How's the Mac/Kirby matchup? I'm looking for an alternative because the matchup for my usual main (ZSS) is tedious and disgusting because he ducks under 90% of my moveset.

 

[PHYTO-1]

How's the Mac/Kirby matchup? I'm looking for an alternative because the matchup for my usual main (ZSS) is tedious and disgusting because he ducks under 90% of my moveset.

i've not come across many kirbys but from my experience they typically act like jigglypuff/peach where they jump/float around trying to bait and punish with an autocancel aerial. that tactic is easily beaten by mac's ***** slap (uppercut fsmash), in which he takes a big step forward ,hits above himself with super armor (and to a lesser extent usmash).

kirbys duck BS is easily beaten with dtilts. mac's dtilts are fast and leads to several followups, not to mention its safe on shield.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yeah, so far every Kirby I've run into just gets whupped, but I keep hearing that like Jiggs and MK are abysmal for Mac, and Kirby seems to follow a similar mold, so I dunno. The other option is my Pikachu, but I don't like Pikachu in that matchup for various reasons, mostly involving not liking Pikachu.

 

[PHYTO-1]

Yeah, so far every Kirby I've run into just gets whupped, but I keep hearing that like Jiggs and MK are abysmal for Mac, and Kirby seems to follow a similar mold, so I dunno. The other option is my Pikachu, but I don't like Pikachu in that matchup for various reasons, mostly involving not liking Pikachu.

jiggs? no, dies too early. not to mention mac has grab release to upb for easy kill. MK on the other hand i can understand, because he has an excellent dash grab and can followup on his throws. though its funny because i have NEVER come across an MK on for glory. -- I actually want to pick up MK as a secondary because I just like him as a character.

Pikachu? Pikachu actually gives Mac a hard time. short in size, projectiles, qac BS, thunder for easy edge guards.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Nonono, I mean, I play Pikachu. I'm trying to figure out what to play, and this guy plays DHD and Kirby. I'm not picking ZSS against that noise.

 

[FlipFlopMist]

Someone who really covers up Little Mac's weaknesses is ROB, his laser goes through other projectiles and his top allows you to control specific areas, atop of that your side B is a reflector, your Nair is amazing, and D throw U air can kill easy.

I've played the Kirby vs Little Mac matchup on both sides, and it's a weird fight for both characters. Kirby's swallow is a killer, he's also able to stay in the air and off the ground for awhile, and keep the pressure up because his air moves cancel on the ground and everything on the ground has little startup lag.
Of course as Little Mac, while Kirb's can duck under a few of your moves, he can't do it for all of them! Plus he's light and slow in the air, and the typical plan for Kirb's is to approach with a Fair/Dair/Nair and cancel it by landing while you're hit stunned-and then do whatever that isn't named Side B or Down B.

 

[LiL.Will]

As Little Mac what moves are safe to use on shield?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Has anybody been able to find precise frame data for Mac's custom counters? My goal is to compare the counter windows to see which are the easiest and most difficult to use. I have found data on the counter attack hitboxes, but that's not what I'm looking for.

 

[Bleezyy]

OK so the next tournament on Sunday last one I lost to dedede making me second place with little mac . dedede is my absolute worst nightmare honestly. He gives me the most trouble.. What should I do?

 

[PHYTO-1]

OK so the next tournament on Sunday last one I lost to dedede making me second place with little mac . dedede is my absolute worst nightmare honestly. He gives me the most trouble.. What should I do?

what exactly do you have trouble with? what kind of playstyle was the dedede using and what was yours?

 

[Bleezyy]

I guess its the more typical sit back and wait and bait I guess ..

 

[Bleezyy]

Sonic is also a problem holy crap can't hit him at all!!!! I was so frustrated last night playing. Its like he's the go to guy .

 

[PHYTO-1]

Sonic is also a problem holy crap can't hit him at all!!!! I was so frustrated last night playing. Its like he's the go to guy .

sonic is annoying. remember to keep your shield up and use your jab to intercept his spin dash (if its uncharged).

 

[Bleezyy]

When do you guys usually strike him?

 

[PHYTO-1]

if he misses a homing attack (it bounces off the ground), jab his spindashes , if he tries to change direction on his downB, upB him after he does his own upB on a juggle to net an early ceiling kill. those are the key moments for easy punishes.

everything else is shield and punish on reaction. missed grabs, missed dash attacks, rolls whatever else. it wont be an easy victory.

 

[inconspikuous]

just faced a campy pit on smashladder. on smashville, he would just stay there shooting arrows and get the percent lead and wouldn't fight. lost that match. counterpicked battlefield and i won when he tried to fight me. he counterpicked battlefield again and stayed at the top platform after he had the percent lead again. i was picking my punches, up b's, trying to shield poke, but overall, it was a grueling 8 minutes of camp and he ended up winning by like 13% on the last stock. is there an answer to that style of play or is it just a "hope you get the percent lead"?

 

[Kirby Phelps (PK)]

I have a serious question. Are there any Little Mac video guides, how to's, combo videos, etc that AREN'T sarcastic or a joke...?

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

I have a serious question. Are there any Little Mac video guides, how to's, combo videos, etc that AREN'T sarcastic or a joke...?

I haven't watched it myself, but Jtails has posted a tutorial. Might be worth checking out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpc3j8qrgBA

 

[Zodiacx10]

I don't know if these questions have been asked before but i was wondering what to use two of his special moves for. the first one is the jolt hay-maker. i know you can use it to leap over projectiles and hit your opponent but it has so much end lag that they can usually hit you with a smash attack if they are at low percents and doesn't knock them back far enough. also it seems telegraphed a little bit and it super risky to use. another is his neutral b. like...what do i do with it? i know it has heavy armor but it takes way too long to charge and has a ton of end lag even when you don't charge it all the way. the only uses i know of is to use it to escape jabs when u are touching the ground cuz of armor and to punch people in the air with it as an edge guard move...but those opportunities rarely happen.

 

[PHYTO-1]

I don't know if these questions have been asked before but i was wondering what to use two of his special moves for. the first one is the jolt hay-maker. i know you can use it to leap over projectiles and hit your opponent but it has so much end lag that they can usually hit you with a smash attack if they are at low percents and doesn't knock them back far enough. also it seems telegraphed a little bit and it super risky to use. another is his neutral b. like...what do i do with it? i know it has heavy armor but it takes way too long to charge and has a ton of end lag even when you don't charge it all the way. the only uses i know of is to use it to escape jabs when u are touching the ground cuz of armor and to punch people in the air with it as an edge guard move...but those opportunities rarely happen.

Jolt Haymaker:
dtilt > jolt haymaker is my favorite combo. works around 20% - 50%. sets up for a tech chase on heavier chars. if they roll away from you just jolt haymaker them again.

http://smashboards.com/threads/defe...in-social-thread.348197/page-13#post-18723684

http://smashboards.com/threads/show...oveset-thread-wip.368629/page-3#post-18690480

Straight Lunge:
use its heavy armor when your opponent is on getup/ledge. (just know their habits)
use it land safely - it can eat through certain aerials and most chars have multihit up smashes. eat through the first weak hits then release before the final blow connects.
use it to eat through projectiles
i recommend using a wireframe mac as he is mute (he doesn't go HRAHHHHHHH), then if you get knocked in the air charge it and land with it fully charged (for style points)
use it on people who abuse travelling moves like clown car, wario bike, quick draw, teleport. just jump up and charge it bam-- slam them

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I don't know if these questions have been asked before but i was wondering what to use two of his special moves for. the first one is the jolt hay-maker. another is his neutral b.

Jolt haymaker from the ground is pretty fantastic. It's like Shiek's bouncing fish only you can perform it in the opposite direction during a walk, dash, or run. With no warning, Mac launches himself across the stage, over projectiles and dtilt moves. Try dashing away from your opponent and cancelling it with side B back toward them. It's a lot of fun as a mix up and deals good damage. Sure the move is generally unsafe, but it's unexpected. if you happened to land behind your opponent when they shield it, you'll be safe from many OoS options. You can also shark people from under platforms with the air version. If your competitive scene uses customs, I very much encourage you to try out his custom side Bs. Grounding Blow is incredible. Better recovery distance and height, can be comboed into with more moves, the burying aspect is extremely rewarding. Guard breaker is also interesting for its obvious differences. Can punch through shields and has super armor starting on frame 9. That's a deadly combination.

Straight lunge is weird. As already stated, you can use it to land. Between mac's other options or double jump, air dodge, nair, and counter, using an occasional super armor move from the air will keep the opponent guessing. Just don't release it at a full charge. Then you most certainly will get punished. As mac, you always want to take trades in damage at every opportunity, but straight lunge from the ground just doesn't compare to the speed and mobility of his smash attacks. And unlike its custom variants you cannot recover with it.

 

[MrTeddyBear]

So I was playing a Little Mac with Kirby for fun, and Little Mac got to the point where his meter was full (KO). But what happened was that when he used his KO Punch, I (as Kirby) unintentionally grabbed him before the move hit me and immediately did an Up Throw, and the momentum from the KO Punch sent me really far back when I used the Up Throw.

I was pretty surprised, partly from how far the move carried me but mostly because I had no idea that you could grab Little Mac while he was doing the KO Punch; I assumed he was invincible during that move. But does anyone actually know what happened?

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

So I was playing a Little Mac with Kirby for fun, and Little Mac got to the point where his meter was full (KO). But what happened was that when he used his KO Punch, I (as Kirby) unintentionally grabbed him before the move hit me and immediately did an Up Throw, and the momentum from the KO Punch sent me really far back when I used the Up Throw.

I was pretty surprised, partly from how far the move carried me but mostly because I had no idea that you could grab Little Mac while he was doing the KO Punch; I assumed he was invincible during that move. But does anyone actually know what happened?

I merged your thread into othe Q&A thread. In the future, please feel free to ask questions regarding Little Mac in this thread.

To answer your question, no Little Mac is not invincible during his K.O. punch animation. He can be both hit and grabbed out of it. What happened to you has actually been stated in the mac boards before, and I've had it happen to myself as well. His K.O. punch has a large windbox at the end of it. When LM is grabbed out of K.O. animation, sometimes the windbox comes out anyway and pushes the opponent. If you hadn't used an Up Throw immediately, you would have flown back with LM in your grab, pulling him with you.